Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: J._McD on January 21, 2006, 12:58:59 pm
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Pseudomonas aeruginosa: commonly know as Hot Tub rash, what is it and where does it come from? A rod shaped bacterium that lives in soil or decomposing organic material, some of which are pathogenic to plants and animals.
We all talk about how and why we need to SANITIZE the water, so we don’t get infected, but wouldn’t it be interesting to know where it comes from and how it unknowingly gets into our Hot Tub? If we know how to kill bacteria and viruses in Hot Tubs (chlorine, bromine, ozone, silver ions, baquaspa etc.), do we know where the bacteria comes from and how they enter the water to multiply and infect us?
These bacteria are common inhabitants of soil and water and can be picked up from the grass. They occur regularly on the surfaces of plants and occasionally on the surfaces of animals. The bacterium is ubiquitous in soil and water, and on surfaces in contact with soil or water.
IF the Hot Tub is sanitized and has no bacteria present, and someone gets out to get their rubber duckie or a beverage and returns back into the spa, they can/will infect the spa from what they pick up on the bottom of their feet. We all know, at a certain point, the sanitizer is consumed and users are then subject to infection.
A busy spa needs active sanitizers. Best advice is get in, stay in. Traffic in and out of the Hot Tub calls for the use of more sanitizer.
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Good advice and an informative post. That's why this is the best spa-related forum on the internet.
Terminator
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Is it possible that some rashes could be caused by the chemicals themselves?
Astrid.
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Is it possible that some rashes could be caused by the chemicals themselves?
Astrid.
While pseudomonas may be the #1 cause of the appearance of rashes, the majority of what appears to be a rash is caused by something else.
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Great post! I was kind of amazed at first when I found out that P. A. was the most common contaminant. I thought, possibly, skin organisms. I think that the P.A. is able to cause problems because the abrasiveness of the jetted water and some of the chemicals remove the skin's natural protection against opportunistic organisms. I know that I always thoroughly flush my hose before refilling my tub and shock after the addition of water for the same reasons. :-/
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Is it possible that some rashes could be caused by the chemicals themselves?
Astrid.
I would say anything is possible, but more often than not, people will interpret the effects of a rash or bacteria to be a sensitivity to chemicals. These experiences lead some to believe they have a sensitivity to chemicals when it is really the lack of chemicals that allows the presence of bacteria. The best advice here is to get and do a bacteria test of your water periodically just for your own edification.
While pseudomonas may be the #1 cause of the appearance of rashes, the majority of what appears to be a rash is caused by something else.
If pseudomonas is #1, the majority of what appears to be a rash is caused by what? ???
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While I have attended several classes on Hot water chemistry ...there is still so much to learn.....I have a question we know that in order for a sanitizer to work to its maximum effectiveness it needs to operate in a certain Ph range .....what happens when someone who is continually adding the sanitizer yet does not shock or who's Ph is way out of range ....are they someone who while having a large residual of sanitizer it is of little use because of the other imbalances ....
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How do you do a bacteria test?
Astrid.
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The way that I would do a bacterial test would be to take a sample of the water ( a known volume) in a sterile container that had an appropriate inactivator for the sanitizer. Then filter the water using a membrane filter (0.2 micron membrane). The filter would then be placed on a plate of sterile agar and incubated at optimal temperatures for bacterial growth (30-35 degrees C). After about 3-5 days you would see growth (maybe sooner) Because you know the volume of water, you could calculate the approximate organisms/ml. Then you would have to have a microbiologist identify the organisms! Since there probably is always a low level of bacteria in the tub, you wouldn't know what to do with the quantative results. By the time this is complete, the entire chemistry of your tub has probably changed. Since my husband manages a microbiology lab for a pharmaceutical company, we could do this and had originally thought of doing it at least out of curiosity as to the typical bioburden of the tub. But, I really don't think it would be worth the trouble unless you had a persistant problem that would not resolve with disinfection. Or unless your really wanted to rule out bacteria as the cause of skin problems. It is really a catch22, too many chemicals you get a reaction, too little chemicals, you get bacteria.
We need an invention .....mmmmm. Is this the thing Hot Springs is working on Term? The health department in your town might do a potable water test for you, if you really wanted to know if you have bacteria in your tub. :-/
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If pseudomonas is #1, the majority of what appears to be a rash is caused by what? ???
Everything else........
In no paticular order, probably not all spelled correctly, and not a complete list;
sensitivity/allergy to chemicals
Grovers disease
unbalanced pH
schistosomes
Dermatitis
excema
Leptospirosis
Toxoplasmosis
Salmonella
Austrobilharzia variglandis
avian schistosome
ring worm
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Ok, Dr., but aren't all of these critters also possibilities for people who have swimming pools? What I mean is there can be a load (bioburden) of bioterristic critters in your tub, or your pool. I think that you can tolerate a much higher level of contamination when your natural barrier(skin) is not challenged by heat and agitation. So isn't it possible that some people just develope a rash from the drying effects of the hot water and the aggitation of the jets? The bacterial stuff is secondary?
???
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So isn't it possible that some people just develope a rash from the drying effects of the hot water ???
Covered by these;
Grovers disease
excema
So isn't it possible that some people just develope a rash from the aggitation of the jets? ???
AH-HA......... thank you, I forgot this one and will add it to my list.
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Everything else........
In no paticular order, probably not all spelled correctly, and not a complete list;
sensitivity/allergy to chemicals
Grovers disease
unbalanced pH
schistosomes
Dermatitis
excema
Leptospirosis
Toxoplasmosis
Salmonella
Austrobilharzia variglandis
avian schistosome
ring worm
doc, your a wealth of knowledge, now how about you tell the good folks here how to detect them, where they come from and how to get rid of them.
I was trying to help with the most common #1 problem and you want to cover them all. Well, I'll let you have the floor so you can help the good folks that are lurking and reading here.
Based on your input, I think Ii am going to fill my spa with gasoline and set it a fire to get rid of all that stuff. And, just when I thought is was safe to go back in the water.
I am sorry folks, but the doc seems to have a point here. Maybe there is far too much to fear and to be aware of. But, then maybe he can help us now with some added information. I really never knew there was soooo much to fear.
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I really never knew there was soooo much to fear.
And all of this, just a micro percentage of what can go wrong in life. Remember, look both ways before crossing.
"I was trying to help with the most common #1 problem and you want to cover them all."
As I read your original post, it is titled "Hot Tub rash, where does it come from?" and begins, "Pseudomonas aeruginosa"...... Never does it mention anything else might be the cause of a rash. As I read it, it looked like the messaage was that Pseudomonas was the only culprit.
"Well, I'll let you have the floor so you can help the good folks that are lurking and reading here. "
I believe I have already done just that.
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OK, I thought Pseudomonas was generally caused by contaminated spa water? I believe one spa owner on this site got a new spa from contracting Pseudomonas from stale water trapped in the pipes of their new spa.
I'm confused, is Pseudomonas generally caused from contaminated spa water or from another source--like another person with Pseudomonas? Are there any microbiologists or medical doctors here that can explain how you can get Pseudomonas in layman's terms? I guess I'm still confused.
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Pseudomonas (and aeruginosa is only one of the many many sp. of this family of water loving organisms) is often found in standing water. (I belive it has been renamed )In any case, it, like gadzillions of other organisms in the environment, is something that we probably encounter routinely and it has no ill effect on us. Given an environment that allows it to reproduce at exponential rates, it can be an opportunistic pathogen, causing the rash and who knows what else. I worked extensively with this family of organisms performing challenges on container closures for a pharmaceutical company. A happy pot of P. Aerugionsa has a very distinct smell. You will all think I am out there, but last month I put my cartridge into my frog system and left the setting far too low, my tub became really cloudy. When I lifted the lid, I recognized that smell. Of course, I have no proof, but I would be willing to bet that the tub was cloudy from P.a. After shocking and setting my bromine where it belonged, we had a tub of foam, frothing foam that I believed resulted from the proteins released from the distruction of the bacteria. (and all of this could be bull, but it made sense to me). When the tub cleared up and things were back in balance, we had no more problem with foam and I didn't use antifoam or anything.
Some of the other critters that Dr. mentions, I wouldn't worry too much about. Some are carried by birds (so if anyone gets them, it would probably be me!)
For my husband and myself, the tub bacteria issue has become a kind of science experiement in itself. Last night while soaking, I told him about this post and we thought over all the ways that the tub can be contaminated. I worried about having mats to keep our feet off the cold deck when we go into the tub. We didn't even think that we cross our door mat (that we wipe our feet on when we come into the house). My son works on a farm. My husband said look at all of the possibilities there...just stepping on the mat that he tracked on and then going into the tub. So this post has provoked quite a bit of thought. We will now use our flip-flops although the tub is only 5 feet from the door. I am buying a new fill hose to fill and top off the tub and hanging it to dry so waterborne contamination can't lurk inside of it. I always shock after I add water. We thought it would also be important to be sure ALL of the jets get "flushed out" every time we use the tub (even if we just use quiet soak),including the waterfall. The theory being that the water trapped in the hoses could grow if it is not exposed to the sanitizer or the level is a bit low. When you turn them on you could potentially dose the tub with bacteria (if this is wrong please correct me) Thanks so much for this post, J. McD. We have been lucky that we haven't had the rash problem, I want to be proactive and prevent it.
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WOW, thank you Bonibelle, that is some meaningful information. I have seen over the many years the different conditions that you have described here. We have all "smelled" different smells from our Hot Tub water before. It is important to be able to recognize WHEN to pay a attention to the water.
One of the first things we tell our customers, aside from dip strips and test kits, your first tester is sight and smell. If you can "see" the water (cloudy), or if you can "smell" the water (odor) ALWAYS TEST THE WATER.
Knowing how and where these bacterium come from and how they get into the Hot Tub is very helpful to all of us. A little knowledge can make a difference.
As for some of the things that doc mentioned, "ring worm" and such I haven't hear of since the '40's and the '50's. While I know that was a long time ago, these bacteria still exist in society today, a little cleanliness goes a long way for prevention. That's why we hope everybody wash their hand frequently. Don't we see that concept being repeated everyday.
Thank you Bonibelle for resolving some of the fear that Hot Tubs are cesspools of infectious bacteria, and the good doc certainly emphasizes the need for proper sanitation. But, for someone who profits from people on this forum, I believe his post is more frighting than informative or helpful. Admittidly, he does question his spelling, so I would take that to mean his knowledge is purely superficial and as pointed out by Boni, is off base in some areas. I searched his web forum and couldn't find any of the bacteria names or issues that he raises. It is kind of like shouting fire in a crowd and I would suppose he shold do it on his own web instead. It can result in unnecessary fear.
Use a sanitizer (ozone, chlorine, bromine, ions, baqua, etc.), shock your spa regularly and test the pH and alk.
The better you know your water conditions and what changes them the better off you are. don't enter the water if it dosen't look good, or if it "stinks".
Incidently, I did find some bacteria test strips on Leslie's web site, 10 tests for $20. It would be nice to better understand our water better, because this is a serious issue of concern. You can also contact your health departments to inquire how or where to find bacteia testing kits, while they might cost a few bucks, the information can be very helpful and assuring to say the least.
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Quite obviously you didn't search my forum very well. Ring worm had a long discussion only a few weeks ago, and Dermatitis and excema (try searching with the correct spelling "eczema") are frequently mentioned.
The point of my original post was simply to point out that a "rash" can be caused by MANY things. It's easy to make an assumption as to what caused it. In fact, many people have commented on my forum as to their personal doctors making an assumption and being COMPLETELY wrong. Maybe you'll get lucky in your assumption, but more than likely you may wind up wasting a lot of your time and money trying to combat something that isn't there. Worse even, would be to treat for something that doesn't exist and your problem (rash) gets worse. I see this time and time again.
The ONLY way to truly determine the cause of a rash is to have a DOCTOR that is WILLING to take the time to do a PROPER diagnosis.
If there's anything else you "haven't hear of" the internet is a good place to do some research. I will keep doing the things I feel I "shold" do and will post about that which I feel I'm knowledgeable about.......... Even if my spelling is not acceptable to you. ;D
Here's 4 more for ya;
herpes simplex
Xerosis
Streptococcus
Mycobacterium marinum
(the herpes is a new one for me, I'll leave the link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=4011510&dopt=Abstract )
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Quite obviously you didn't search my forum very well. Ring worm had a long discussion only a few weeks ago, and Dermatitis and excema (try searching with the correct spelling "eczema") are frequently mentioned.
The point of my original post was simply to point out that a "rash" can be caused by MANY things. It's easy to make an assumption as to what caused it. In fact, many people have commented on my forum as to their personal doctors making an assumption and being COMPLETELY wrong. Maybe you'll get lucky in your assumption, but more than likely you may wind up wasting a lot of your time and money trying to combat something that isn't there. Worse even, would be to treat for something that doesn't exist and your problem (rash) gets worse. I see this time and time again.
The ONLY way to truly determine the cause of a rash is to have a DOCTOR that is WILLING to take the time to do a PROPER diagnosis.
If there's anything else you "haven't hear of" the internet is a good place to do some research. I will keep doing the things I feel I "shold" do and will post about that which I feel I'm knowledgeable about.......... Even if my spelling is not acceptable to you. ;D
Here's 4 more for ya;
herpes simplex
Xerosis
Streptococcus
Mycobacterium marinum
(the herpes is a new one for me, I'll leave the link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=4011510&dopt=Abstract )
Thanks for your input doc, we all find it helpful. Your spelling did throw me aff a bit. But it is not our job or our intent to assume what it is, diagnose it, identify it or treat the things you speak of, only to sanitize, not only for the reason why, but when to sanitize as well.
The aforementioned is best left to medical doctors who are admittedly in "Practice" and their assumption is typically what they "think" it to be. I have know many instances where the Hot Tub was blamed incorrectly for many different things that were not produced or picked up in the Hot Tub. It is blamed only because it is a Hot Tub.
For the benefit of new Hot Tubbers, if the children are using the spa that is clean and clear of any bacteria, (an assumption for the moment if you will) and one of the children gets out to get his squirt gun and then gets back in, the child can and will infect the users in the Hot Tub with pseudomonas bacteria. It is commonly found on the ground, grass, deck or pavers that WET feet come in contact with it. THIS IS WHEN WE NEED TO BE SURE THE SPA IS SANITIZED.
Typically, the bacteria on our skin is common to one another in the immediate family, otherwise we would be sanitizing our lips before we kiss each other, BUT if you have an invited guest in the Hot Tub, you will have uninvited body bugs and again is a good time to be sure the sanitizer level is where it needs to be.
Doc, because pseudomonas is #1 and is the most common bacteria, do you have any information where these other bateria forms are picked up from to be introduced into the breeding ground of Hot Water? That information would be both interesting and helpful.
I think the point of this thread is to be aware of HOW these bacteria CAN be introduced into the water so that we can be a little more proactive and learn.
Rather than to focus on the "cause" of the rash, I believe the source and how it is introduced is more beneficial to prevent the unintentional introduction or exposure, not the knowledge of it's existence or presence in society.
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Ok guys, I guess the possibilities are endless...what could happen or what could grow in the tub. It took me 2 years to buy a tub and one of the drawbacks was the issue of clean water. If you could visualize all of the potential health threats from microbes that you encounter EVERY day..every time you use a restroom, everytime you open a door....every time you pick up a salt shaker in a restaurant you would be astonished!!! My husband and I did a mini microbiology program for my kid's classes at school. We asked the kids to pick the spots that they thought would be the dirtiest in terms of micro organisms. They of course tested toilet seats, floors and thing that either seemed like they should be gross or things that looked dirty. The winner, however was the kid that tested the computer keyboard!
I am at the point of no need to panic and with all the help on here, I will learn to keep my tub healthy. One point is that no matter how much you think you already know, there is so much that you probably don't. I am going to find out what the bacteria strips at Leslies are all about.
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Everything else........
In no paticular order, probably not all spelled correctly, and not a complete list;
sensitivity/allergy to chemicals
Grovers disease
unbalanced pH
schistosomes
Dermatitis
excema
Leptospirosis
Toxoplasmosis
Salmonella
Austrobilharzia variglandis
avian schistosome
ring worm
So that's why my brother-in-law wouldn't go for a soak! He said hot tubs were unsanitary cesspools and behold! they are!
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My question I guess, is how often is hot tub rash (whatever the cause) even a problem? What percentage of hot tub owners have a problem, and if they have a problem how often do they get it?
I'm pretty much as far from a germophobe as you can be and I must say I'm not concerned about it in my hot tub or practically anywhere else for that matter. I do believe in/practice proper hygeine and sanitization for the spa, but I don't give potential problems a thought. Way too much else in the world that could/can/will go wrong for me to get hung up on this.
My children and I have very sensitive skin... I triple rinse the laundry, have to use special soap, special detergent, etc. and have not had any problem with the spa in our 2 months of ownership.
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Brooke, You have a great attitude and obviously have the hot tub routine down. I think the "real" rash (from the bacteria) happens when things get out of control. I just found out at a family party that my nephew and a friend bought a soft tub for their house. They filled it, heated it and jumped in. The tub was used, they never cleaned it, never checked anything as far as ph, etc and they didn't use any sanitizer. He said he was in and out of it, but in for a total of about 4 or 5 hours that first day. He got the rash and it was a pretty bad case. I think the point of J.mcD's post was to make everyone aware of how the tubs could become contaminated and that you can prevent the problem all together by keeping you water quality in check and not introducing things that could throw it way out.
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I think you got to keep everything in perspective.
People have been swimming and or soaking in lakes, ponds, streams, pools and even tubs for years. The only ones that are sanitized are pools and tubs and people don't catch diseases in them all the time.
I myself have seen some questionable pools that people swam in and I even have used my tub with slightly cloudy water after hitting it with 6 to 10 PPM chlorine a few hours before without any ill effects. I will say that both my kids used to dunk their heads under the water in the tub and both got ear infections (1st time ever) - so I believe something was up with not soaking in chlorine; the solution was not to dunk their heads.
I did nuke my tub when I first got it "just in case" but I think you can't get too concerned about the daily soaking and sanitizing and worry about IF your going to get the dreaded rash.
When I first started looking into buying the tub I read that never use the tub without sanitizer in it. But after finding Doc's site and reading Vermonter's regiment, I knew that the tub would be safe without soaking in chlorine.
As been posted here and on Doc's site there are people who don't use the amount of sanitizer I use and have clean looking water and no issues. D1 even advertizes their Vision system as a chlorine alternitive and only use chlorine when the spa looks cloudy.
I don't think there's a need to worry about all the things that can grow in the hot tub ... what about a big asteroid hitting the planet, now that's something to worry about! ;D
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It's funny Vinny, when I get out of my hot tub, I can look down from the deck to my koi pond. I have been in there bare footed and up to my armpits in pond sludge, dead frogs and decomposing plants (spring cleaning time) but it never worried me and I never got anything from that mess. The hot tub is a different story and I guess it is just because you expect it to be clean and if it is not, then you did something wrong. ;D
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Very good information Bonibelle. What is your background? Are you a Microbiologist or some kind of scientist? Thanks again for the input.
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I am a MAD scientist ;D
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This is a great thread and hopefully it won't end up in the dead horse file. I knew there could be problems with the tubs, but never this much. Apparently the biggest enemy is a casual attitude. In the end a properly mainteined tub that is used thoughtfully should never be a problem.
Regarding the Doc' posts - I never met the guy, but I don't believe for a minute he uses this forum to scare people into buying his merchandise. If that is what you think - shop someplace else. If you think he is full of BS, do a little research and show him why he is wrong. But it isn't fair to make unfounded accusations.
Bonnibelle - your post has made me think about my set up too. Even though our tub is indoors we can still track junk in it that shouldn't be there. We have been fanatical about being clean before getting in the tub. We are finally finished spackling and sanding and have 2 coats prime on the walls so dust is no longer the problem it was.
A few days ago the tub had an unusual smell to it. We tested and shocked and it is okay now but we used it anyway. I felt little tingles on my skin and had to shower to stop it. My wife was unaffected. Wonder what that was. Taking a water sample to the dealer tomorrow afternoon.
Go Steelers!
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Know what Snowbird, it may have been nothing! Sometimes we think too much.
And Gombo, I was being silly, I have a clinical lab background, no big deal but I have lots of experience with microbiology and contamination control. My husband and I worked together for years growing, fermenting and evolving (if you will) all sorts of microorganisms for studies in the pharmaceutical industry. That is probably why we can't stop the contamination discussions in the tub. If my tub gets funky again (hopefully it won't) I will send a sample with him and see what grows from it. (Funklogongothermopholus. hotubius )???
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Chlorine is a wonderful chemical that disinfect most things, if given the proper amount of time.
When I started using my tub, I was putting in at least 3 PPM after I soaked. Now I use 1.5 PPM per person after soaking and another 1.5 PPM every other day after the soak and as far as I can tell, my tub is clean and I am assuming bacteria free. I monitor the combined chlorine and lately it is usually below 0.5 PPM. If the chlorine was killing and combining with anything (bacteria, dirt ...) I would be seeing greater combined chlorine readings (at least that's my logic).
Water can get away from anyone, we get busy and that 5 minute dosing doesn't happen. Snowbird, you said you shocked it and went in, how high was the chlorine and how long did you wait before going in? You might have had a chlorine reation, not a rash reaction. I know that if I keep my chlorine dosing to 1.5 PPM every other day I don't get cloudy water but if it get's away from me I put in at least 6PPM to "shock" it.
As Bonibelle said, she's been in pond sluge to which I'd say "yuk". No way you'd get me in that without waders! I would think that whatever gets put into a hot tub needs time to grow. If it starts out low, which it should and quardruples in 50 minutes of soaking .. chlorine is my best defence with O3 doing whatever it does!
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I've water skiied in the Willamette River, I'm not afraid of some hot tub. ;D
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Thanks for your input doc, we all find it helpful. Your spelling did throw me aff a bit. .
Odd, since all the scientific terms I posted (except for excema ) were copied and pasted from the CDC's website or other medical web sites........ Possibly your speaking of the words I enclosed in quotes? That was where I quoted you.
By the way, I went back and spell checked my posts in this thread and it looks like I only mispelled three words. "paticular, excema & messaage"....... Can ya tell me which one threw you off? It might help me in the future so as not to confuse you........
But it is not our job or our intent to assume what it is, diagnose it, identify it or treat the things you speak of, only to sanitize, not only for the reason why, but when to sanitize as well.
The aforementioned is best left to medical doctors who are admittedly in "Practice" and their assumption is typically what they "think" it to be. I have know many instances where the Hot Tub was blamed incorrectly for many different things that were not produced or picked up in the Hot Tub. It is blamed only because it is a Hot Tub.
I believe we are in agreement on this. My previous post specifically said, "The ONLY way to truly determine the cause of a rash is to have a DOCTOR that is WILLING to take the time to do a PROPER diagnosis."
For the benefit of new Hot Tubbers, if the children are using the spa that is clean and clear of any bacteria, (an assumption for the moment if you will) and one of the children gets out to get his squirt gun and then gets back in, the child can and will infect the users in the Hot Tub with pseudomonas bacteria. It is commonly found on the ground, grass, deck or pavers that WET feet come in contact with it. THIS IS WHEN WE NEED TO BE SURE THE SPA IS SANITIZED.
That statement, my friend, is screaming fire in a crowded building. You say "will infect the users in the Hot Tub with pseudomonas bacteria"...... and then "It is commonly found on the ground, grass, deck or pavers that WET feet come in contact with it."
For the foregoing statement to be accurate, you would have to say it is ALYAYS found on EVERY BIT OF the ground, grass, deck or pavers that WET feet come in contact with it...... You also have to assume that there's not enough sanitizer in the water to overcome the amount (regardless of how small) PA that's may, or as you claim IS brought back into the water.
Typically, the bacteria on our skin is common to one another in the immediate family, otherwise we would be sanitizing our lips before we kiss each other, BUT if you have an invited guest in the Hot Tub, you will have uninvited body bugs and again is a good time to be sure the sanitizer level is where it needs to be.
Doc, because pseudomonas is #1 and is the most common bacteria, do you have any information where these other bateria forms are picked up from to be introduced into the breeding ground of Hot Water? That information would be both interesting and helpful.
I'm not quite sure what "bateria" is.
I think the point of this thread is to be aware of HOW these bacteria CAN be introduced into the water so that we can be a little more proactive and learn.
Well J._McD, almost the entire point of my response to your original post is semantics. Your post made it sound like the only cause of hot tub rash is Pseudomonas aeruginosa, introduced by what they pick up on the bottom of their feet . I truly felt, and continue to feel, that without adding that that is not the only way for Pseudomonas to enter a spa, and in no way is that the only thing that can cause a hot tub related rash, is not only incorrect, but also a bit irresponsible....... I do understand you and I don't play well together, and I do apologize if you feel I was attacking you. This was never my intention. My only intention was to provide more complete information
Rather than to focus on the "cause" of the rash, I believe the source and how it is introduced is more beneficial to prevent the unintentional introduction or exposure, not the knowledge of it's existence or presence in society.
This is an interesting philosophy, one that I tend to agree with............. for BACTERIAL rashes. The thing is, I see way more posts on my forum from people who's rashes are not bacterially caused... Soooooo, I firmly believe that once someone gets a rash, it's important to have it properly diagnosed in order to determine how to correctly treat it and eliminate the actual cause.
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Which is why I don't believe in using products that are bacteriacides only without accompanying with dichlor. There are many organisms that are not bacteria that can infest spa water.
Add to the list Giardia, the intestinal parasite, which is very prevalent.
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OK, Tony, I am guessing that the Giardia would have to be introduced by a tubbing guest? Or the introduction of untreated fill water? Is that right? I am interested that you say very prevalent, do you mean in the environment or in hot tubs? No one has mentioned E.Coli and while that is really a disgusting thought, isn't it a possibility?
Since we basically know WHAT could possibly get into the the tub, maybe if we concentrate more on how it gets there, we would better protect our water.
The bare feet thing hit my husband and me as being something to really think about. It is easy to resolve and yet we didn't focus on that at all.
I am still trying to understand the way that the sanitizers and shock work. Basically the constant introduction of sanitizer binds and destroys the contaminant and the levels of sanitizer can go up because it is being used by the distruction of the bacteria?..and then when you shock you oxidize the sanitizer and the levels should go down???is that right?
I think I need a visual of this because I don't understand how to tell if my bromine is high because it needs to be shocked or if it is high because I am overdosing the tub. Or am I totally confused on all of this and just lucky things have gone pretty well so far?
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Yes, from what I understand it would be introduced by a guest. Caught this germ twenty some odd years ago in the Carribean in what I now understand to be a pool. My body expelled the damn thing, if you know what I mean, but the others I was with brought it home and needed medication to get rid of it. Last year there was a major outbreak of it at a local country club pool. When I say prevalent, I mean it is not an obscure problem...it is present and out there and it is not bacteria. "Giardia is the most frequent non bacterial cause of diarrhea is North America "(copied).
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With bromine, your sanitizer level is what counts and what does the work. As the work gets done, the chemistry changes, but the spent bromine still works (unlike chlorine). Shocking rearranges the chemistry again to unspent bromine and "oxidizes" the contaminants. Shocking should raise your bromine level.
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Everything else........
In no paticular order, probably not all spelled correctly, and not a complete list;
sensitivity/allergy to chemicals
Grovers disease
unbalanced pH
schistosomes
Dermatitis
excema
Leptospirosis
Toxoplasmosis
Salmonella
Austrobilharzia variglandis
avian schistosome
ring worm
and of course, grizzly bears in the the hot tub. ;)
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I do understand you and I don't play well together, and I do apologize if you feel I was attacking you. This was never my intention. My only intention was to provide more complete[/b] information”
Why do you say this doc? Is this your choice, or is it something that I have done, and know nothing about? If you truly wanted to provide additional information, why have you not responded to my questions to supply some clarification and understanding?
I simply posted what I thought was an interesting subject for a post. You have added to the list other medical terms with what appears to be your clinical expertise, it is certainly your prerogative to add complimentary information and it is welcomed. I even thanked you for your meaningful input. You list scientific terms and nothing else, you provide no helpful information that indicates what they are, how you get them, where they can come from, what they look like or how common or likely they are to occur in the Hot Tub. That would be contributing meaningful information, which is what I attempted to do with this post. These scientific terms appear to be more bad things to fear, than adding to the general information of the post.
You seem to point out faults in others, such as myself. If I have offended you in some way in this post, I do apologize, but you seem to have a personal issue here or a vendetta of some sort. Is it something that I have said or done to you for you to say, “I do understand you and I don't play well together”, Is this just your personal choice? Then keep it to yourself and stay home.
Others did seem to indicate that it was a good post. Yet again, even others indicate they did learn something from the discussion including myself. One thing they did learn is that you do not seem to have any respect for me, or care much for me. That is a shame, because you don’t even know me, and we have never met. You told me quite clearly once before in a post, I was wrong about ozone, but as it turned out you were the one that was wrong. You never did apologize and it would be meaningless now, but that is ok. This might explain your vindictive manner toward me. I am sorry if I offend you in any way. I am sure you are a nice guy and do good things for others that benefit you as well.
If you wish to comment on my typing, spelling or lack of proof reading, you should not throw stones from your glass home “I only mispelled three words” …… For the foregoing statement to be accurate, you would have to say it is ALYAYS found on EVERY BIT OF the ground, grass, deck or pavers that WET feet come in contact with it......
there would be two ss’s in misspelled. Then there is “ALYAYS”,
“Well J._McD, almost the entire point of my response to your original post is semantics.
At first you said, "My only intention was to provide more complete information” But then, it appears your mission is to correct my language skills more than to contribute or provide meaningful information on the subject. Why not just allow me to embarrass myself through my own inept language skills. While I was complimenting your points and asking for more in-depth information from you, which, has not been forthcoming from you, you seem to be more adept at criticizing others than being a contributor to this thread or forum.
I challenge you to join hands with me and post 5 meaningful and educational threads that will benefit "newbies" "shoppers" and Hot Tubbers". I have already acknowledged that you are a wealth of information and your resources are seemingly endless.
Peace. :-*
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The Doc makes some very good points that MANY things can cause a rash. I understood his point,"consider more than one thing MAY cause the problem". It didn't seem like he was attacking you J MCD. Things you two have disagreed about in the past may make you feel like he was aggressive. I didn't see that in his writing.
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Hey, J._McD & Doc,
How about a truce? 8) We are supposed to be enjoying this and helping each other.
If you don't learn how to work and play well with each other the moderators are going to give both of you a timeout in the corner. ;D
Health Note
Did you know that in the human body there is a nerve that connects the eyeball to the anus? It is called the anal optic nerve. It is responsible for giving people a poopy outlook on life. If you don't believe it, pull a hair from your butt, and see if it doesn't bring a tear to your eye. [/i]
:o
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Koom-by-ya'll, My Lawd, Koom-by-ya'll.....
Koom-by-ya'll, My Lawd, Koom-by-ya'll.....
Koom-by-ya'll, My Lawd, Koom-by-ya'll.....
Oh Lawd, Koom-by-ya'll............................
Now, be fruitful to one another.
Terminator
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Wow, this was great information but I'm more confused now than I was before I read it. I'm still not sure if you can catch Pseudomonas from dirty spa water? Maybe it's spread from another person or from some dog sh*t on the lawn? I'm still confused.
Has anyone on this forum ever had Pseudomonas? Was it life threatening or just a minor rash that was easily treated? It's a miracle I didn't catch anything like this in my bachelor days.........
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Gomboman, I am sorry if I contributed to your confusion. I think some of what we can take away from this thread is that there are many things that could possibly contaminate our spa water. I seriously doubt that you will get pseudo contamination from a guest in your tub, as it is usually found in standing water (like in your garden hose or birdbath, stuff like that). The organism is able to form a slimy coating on the colonies (millions and millions of cells) and therefore is sometimes resistant to sanitization. It also grows best in warm temperatures. I guess having too many friends in your tub and not enough sanitizer to offset all the skin bacteria could allow the pseudo to flurish so,indirectly, a number of folks in your tub could contribute to it. Pseudomonas, however, is not considered normal skin flora (the microbes that we typically have on healthy people like staph or some strep organisms or micrococcus...and many more) Apparently these organisms are very easily destroyed by the sanitizers.
Walking in "stuff" and then getting into your tub could introduce all kinds of contamination and this thread really got me thinking about how we walk out the door across the same mat that we wipe our dirty shoes on. So by wearing flip flops to the tub, we can reduce that possibility. If you haven't been bothered by any hot tub rash, you are probably doing everything right with your water from a microbical standpoint and from a chemical balance standpoint. ::)
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Boni,
None of us think much about the hoses we use to fill or top off our tubs and your comment got me thinking about the stagnant water in it.
When working outside I will get a drink out of that hose since I am much too dirty to go inside. If I don't let the water run to flush that stagnant water out, it tastes horrible and actually smells musty. Don't know what's in there, but I don't want it in my tub.
Since my tub is on the second floor it will be a simple matter to use a dedicated hose (they're much cheaper than medicine and doctor's visists) and drain it after each use.
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Boni,
Since my tub is on the second floor it will be a simple matter to use a dedicated hose (they're much cheaper than medicine and doctor's visists) and drain it after each use.
I sure hope you mean draining the hose, not the tub. ;)
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Never drink out of the garden hose....I once tried to start a syphon and ended up with a mouth full of spiders!
Won't do that again...You never know who could be lurking inside.... :-[
I just bought a new hose at Walmart and some quick connect fittings because I don't want to forget and leave the hose attached in freezing conditions.I am also going to shorten it so it will only be used to fill the spa and I can easily hang it up to dry out.
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Never drink out of the garden hose....I once tryed to start a syphon and ended up with a mouth full of spiders!
Won't do that again...You never know who could be lurking inside.... :-[
I just bought a new hose at Walmart and some quick connect fittings because I don't want to forget and leave the hose attached in freezing conditions.I am also going to shorten it so it will only be used to fill the spa and I can easily hang it up to dry out.
One time this summer I went to use the hose and put the nozzel on it. Water wouldn't come out of the nozzel so I took it off and blew into it from the tip ... nothing. I proceeded to take the nozzel apart and found a dead cricket in it!
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I'd warrant that over 90% of rashes aquired in the hot tub are of the "dry skin" variety. Eczema is by far the most popular rash you'll get.
I've found that I'll get flair ups of it only in the Winter.
It itches like hell, especially when you sit in the spa. Remember, don't scratch, it makes it worse.
A little Clotrimazole is a good topical cream to apply. Hydrocortisone will also help the itching.
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I am probably still a "rookie" compared to many contributors here on the board, as I have been in the business since May 2002.
I have seen many a rash in my day. I have had customers with pseudomonas.
It is very difficult to know exactly the cause of a rash. All we can do is trial and error or elimination processes to isolate causes. Doctors are really in a hard position too. They often say stop using the hot tub, or start writing prescriptions until something works.
At the end of the day the most common "cure" for customers with rashes has been a sanitizer switch. Often when this is recommended, I suggest to stop using any and all "accessory" products (stain & scale, enzymes, classifiers) and re-add them to the routine one at a time. This has "cured" 90% of the rashes.
Other common causes seem to be:
eczema (this may not have been present before hot tub ownership)
chloramines / bromamines - I may have missed it, but I was surprised no one mentioned this. If they did, sorry i missed it. MANY do not understand shocking/oxidizing. I know some of you will disagree with me, but to super chlorinate/brominate the tub you really need to leave the cover off for 45-60 minutes.
Lastly but not least, pseudomonas can cause rashes.