Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Dr. Spa™ Ret. on January 06, 2006, 12:20:22 pm
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As some of you know, "another" website has a "bogus" spa ratings web page. Sometime in the last day they made a major change, that I would be interested in peoples comments and/or opinions on. For the past 8 or so years the page has always had a number of "classes" for spas, from "Best of Class" down to "Not Included". The classes included, Best of Class, Deluxe Class, Above Average Class, Standard Class, and Not Included.
Well, with the newest "update", there's now only "Best of Class", and Other Brands.
Any opinions on how this might effect the perceived validity of these "ratings" to the average shopper? Any ideas or guesses on WHY they made have made this change?
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OH MY GAWSH! WE GOT 5 STARS!!!!!!!! WOOHOOOO! ::)
Terminator
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I'd like to check it out but I don't know what the "another" website is. PM me with the info.
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OH MY GAWSH! WE GOT 5 STARS!!!!!!!! WOOHOOOO! ::)
Terminator
then it couldn't be the site I was thinking about. ;)
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I'd like to check it out but I don't know what the "another" website is. PM me with the info.
Ditto for me also....
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so pretty much it looks like for this year if you didnt pay enough for the best of class rating your just another tub company for those who are not on it it s easy to sell against it
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Doc, if this is the pool and spa site I think it is, I checked them out when I first started looking over a year ago. I figured out pretty quickly that the ratings were bogus.
A sentence like:
Most of these manufacturers' spas have been checked out by our staff.
is pretty telling if you ask me. If someone is going to rate a product all the manufacturers listed should be 'checked out' otherwise there is no basis for the grade. Not to mention they should be more than 'checked out' there should be a set criteria in which all spas are tested and then rated.
The change makes no difference to me. As to why, its been a while since I looked at the page, but I found it very cluttered and hard to follow if I remember correctly. I would guess this new system is simpler for the average shopper to follow.
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Pathfinder- I have heard the ratings can be purchased. Not sure how true it is but I question if the ratings are truly independent. Has consumers report ever done a comparison and if they haven't I kinda wonder why?
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I asked about why Consumer Reports has never rated spas and was told that there has to be at least 2 million units/year of a product manufactured for it to be rated. That eliminates spas.
This was several years ago so maybe the criteria has changed.
Terminator
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Pathfinder- I have heard the ratings can be purchased. Not sure how true it is but I question if the ratings are truly independent. Has consumers report ever done a comparison and if they haven't I kinda wonder why?
How many consumers buy cars, hair dryers, lawnmowers etc., 20% 50%, and what portion of the consuming public would be buying Hot Tubs 5%, 2%???
What is the demand to know the information and would they then have to test 140 different manufacturers? ???
There is a great need for this information however, as a consumer, might I suggest that you contact consumer reports by e-mail and pose that question. I will too.
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I have learned in the past couple months that everything is about exposure along with fake energy test and made up approvals and ghost medical and arthritic foundations. But thats business thats why Watkins is at the top of this forum. Like our experienced members here state "Its what tub is best for you" Exposure gets em in the door then the dealer has to do the rest.
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What's the problem with naming the page?
Here:
http://www.poolandspa.com/page149.htm
It's a BS site.
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OH MY GAWSH! WE GOT 5 STARS!!!!!!!! WOOHOOOO! ::)
Terminator
term, your not the only one with 5 stars ;D
it is interesting how they went from all those classifications down to just "best/other".
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term, your not the only one with 5 stars ;D
Ya'll ponied up the dough, too, eh? ;D
It is nice to have the capital to afford all those stars though, isn't it......
Terminator
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"Most of these manufacturers' spas have been checked out by our staff. "
What does this mean? Looked at pics in a brochure? Or tore them apart and rebuilt them to see how they are made and work? And only "most", which ones? Then if they check out some from the bottom list will they be added to the top list?
Maybe the key words are "checked out" as in we got a check out to them right away!!
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OH MY GAWSH! WE GOT 5 STARS!!!!!!!! WOOHOOOO! ::)
Terminator
You've always had a top rating there. ALWAYS. I'd be happy to discuss/explain it, but not in writing :-)
I'd like to check it out but I don't know what the "another" website is. PM me with the info.
Looks like drew answered this one.. thanks drew
so pretty much it looks like for this year if you didnt pay enough for the best of class rating your just another tub company for those who are not on it it s easy to sell against it
I tend to dissagre here. The way I see it, the current rating system isn't as nevative to the companies NOT on the "Best of" list. No longer are there 2 and 3 star companies competing with 5 star companies
Doc, if this is the pool and spa site I think it is, I checked them out when I first started looking over a year ago. I figured out pretty quickly that the ratings were bogus.
Well, we all know how smart YOU are. But I see a lot of posts (other places) from people questioning the ratings and why the spa they like isn't listed. The VAST majority of shopers never come to these message boards so you're not able to pass on your intellagent opinions.
Pathfinder- I have heard the ratings can be purchased. Not sure how true it is but I question if the ratings are truly independent.
I believe I have evidance that would stand up in court.
I asked about why Consumer Reports has never rated spas and was told that there has to be at least 2 million units/year of a product manufactured for it to be rated. That eliminates spas.
Terminator
Still the same...... it's about marketing and money. They feel there aren't enough people interested in the ratings, so it would "waste" space in their magazine, and wouldn't be a subject that would sell copies of the magazine.
I have learned in the past couple months that everything is about exposure along with fake energy test and made up approvals and ghost medical and arthritic foundations. But thats business thats why Watkins is at the top of this forum. .
Watkins is here because they've chosen to spend the big bucks to ADVERTISE here. They're also PAYING for the link that's at the bottom of most of the pages on this site.
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I think the best way to describe it or explain it is Coercion.
Manufacturers have advertising dollars to market their products and there are consumers with insatiable appetite for information. It is really amazing how gullible we all are in what we believe to be true, this can be referred to as perception.
I see that Artesian, D-1 and Coleman didn't buy the stars, does that make them a lesser product than a Spas Direct or Thermospa? Maybe in someones mind because they got more stars. ;D
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it is interesting how they went from all those classifications down to just "best/other".
My point exactly. WHY? Might there have been a threat of a lawsuit? I don't know. I do know I have almost 100 copies of the page, from each time it's changed... And I"ve talked to a number of manufacturers, some at the top of the list,, and some at the bottom. From my perspective, the current change is rather significant....... I'm just not quite sure how.
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Have you emailed them to ask?
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I believe I have evidance that would stand up in court.
I didn't bother to check, but it was at one point very easy to find on ther website.
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My point exactly. WHY? Might there have been a threat of a lawsuit? I don't know. I do know I have almost 100 copies of the page, from each time it's changed... And I"ve talked to a number of manufacturers, some at the top of the list,, and some at the bottom. From my perspective, the current change is rather significant....... I'm just not quite sure how.
I remember in one calender year, a manufacturer that is currently "top of the class" went from 4 to 3 to 4 stars.
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granted i am not as old and wise as some with hot tubs, but i had a thought.
could they be trying to make it easier on themselves by doing "best/other" catagories??
as HotTubMan noted, there was an up and down year in ratingsfor 1/more manufacturers.
could the change in the # of stars be due to complaints/bbb/links from their site to the manufacturers or something else along those lines?
IF so, then by doing "best/other" it could simplify how they rate.......of course, i have no insite to how they come to their conclusions.
just a thought.
oh, term....yeah, its nice when they ante up to get them stars ;D ;D
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Pool & Spa...that's all anyone had to say! Bought and paid for!
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Pool & Spa...that's all anyone had to say! Bought and paid for!
so much for the fun of speculation ;D and i do so love playing devils advocate!! :D
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I remember in one calender year, a manufacturer that is currently "top of the class" went from 4 to 3 to 4 stars.
Their cheque must have been late or lost in the mail
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My point exactly. WHY?
What maker of premium spas would want to pay to be rated in the mid or lower range? You either want to be a top of class or you save your ad dollars to be used elsewhere. I've always scratched my head as to who would pay to be rated below the best of class spas unless you truly are a bargain brand who really is competitn on price.
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What maker of premium spas would want to pay to be rated in the mid or lower range? You either want to be a top of class or you save your ad dollars to be used elsewhere. I've always scratched my head as to who would pay to be rated below the best of class spas unless you truly are a bargain brand who really is competitn on price.
youre right, it doesnt make sence.
is it possible that they list "others" as brands that dont pay??
trying to say they "look" at "most" brands to try and look respectable?????
hmmm....conspiracy maybe??? ;)
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youre right, it doesnt make sence.
is it possible that they list "others" as brands that dont pay??
trying to say they "look" at "most" brands to try and look respectable?????
hmmm....conspiracy maybe??? ;)
Now it does but the point is previously they had a top of class and then intermediate classes rather than an "all other" category like they do now.
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I see that Artesian, D-1 and Coleman didn't buy the stars, does that make them a lesser product than a Spas Direct or Thermospa? Maybe in someones mind because they got more stars. ;D
I believe they did pay, but only bought the entry-level package. Doc can confirm or not as I believe he had the pricing packages posted here at one time.
Terminator
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if we are buying stars.....how much to get a 4th added to my name ;D
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Have you emailed them to ask?
hahahahahahahahahha, over the YEARS I've got a number of different explanations/excusses from them
I remember in one calender year, a manufacturer that is currently "top of the class" went from 4 to 3 to 4 stars.
from 4 to 3? I know of one that went from best of class, to not on the list,, and back to best of class in 2 weeks. This is the worst case I know of, and there's many that did the 4 to 3 to 4.
could they be trying to make it easier on themselves by doing "best/other" catagories??
could the change in the # of stars be due to complaints/bbb/links from their site to the manufacturers or something else along those lines?
To your first question, I don't know. That's why I asked about it here in the first place.
To the second. In my opinion (<----- that should prevent a lawsuit), the answer is "WHEN PIGS FLY".
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How can any site list Hydro, Spas Direct & Dynasty etc as 5 stars and then list LA, D-1, & Artesian for example as 3 stars? Unbelievable. I've been to the Spas Direct "factory". What a bubble gum & duct tape place.
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How can any site list Hydro, Spas Direct & Dynasty etc as 5 stars and then list LA, D-1, & Artesian for example as 3 stars? Unbelievable. I've been to the Spas Direct "factory". What a bubble gum & duct tape place.
The former are obviously more fiscally stable and have larger advertising budgets available than the latter.
Terminator
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if we are buying stars.....how much to get a 4th added to my name
HAAA!!!! Me too!!
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HAAA!!!! Me too!!
cappy, would i have to pay more since you have 500 more posts than i do?? hahahaa
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I am acting as Bill's agent for stars today. Please send me $10K for each star you want, and I'll have Bill add them for you.
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I am acting as Bill's agent for stars today. Please send me $10K for each star you want, and I'll have Bill add them for you.
10k paruvian dollars?? DEAL!!!!!!! im mailing off my $1 (us currency) right now! so get those stars ready!!! ;D
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Been forever since I last visited that site.
Had some good times there/grin
http://www.poolandspa.com:8080/read?32194,48
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What's the problem with naming the page?
Here:
http://www.poolandspa.com/page149.htm
It's a BS site.
Doc, as you know runs his own site/store and is very careful to avoid the appearance of trying to steer viewers away from this site to his own or others.
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The former are obviously more fiscally stable and have larger advertising budgets available than the latter.
Terminator
I dont think its as simple as that. And nothing is "Obvious". I remember years ago when the Bengal was a "Best Buy" ( that alone should raise some suspicion, ;) ) anyway, we also sold MasterSpa and tried to get the owner of Master to work on getting the best buy rating and his response was that there were better things to do with the $50,000 it took to pay for it. I know LA Spas, and I'm sure Dimension One are not "fiscally unstable". You are probably correct in the advertising budget thing though. Honestly, I wish LA would just buy the ratings and then it would be moot. ;)
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if we are buying stars.....how much to get a 4th added to my name ;D
$399.99 to my paypal account.
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Just joshin'. I know the ratings are baloney and pretty comical when you realize that it just don't add up! ;D
Terminator
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HAAA!!!! Me too!!
I'm really restraining myself.
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If Phoenix is a 3 star spa, does that rating go up or down if you modify them and rebrand them? ???
Boy Doc, you really started something, 3 pages before I even saw this thread. I'll let it get to 9 before I squash it ;)
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Doc,
Thanks for bringing the change to our attention. They chagre $25,000 for the Best of Class Rating. I think it is a shame that consumers can be misled. Many folks take stock in these ratings and trust that they are real. The way I see it, there are 12 companies on that list, that just don't belong there, some of them should be 1 or 2 stars at best. Some quality manufactures like Artesian and LA Spas, won't play the game and pay the extortion, therefore previously had a lower rating than the low end stuff coming out of Florida and now are not rated at all. Amazing. We all remember the Adventure Spa rip off from last year. They were just a dealer, from New Jersey, had a company private label a spa for them and lied to consumers, representing themselves as a manufacturer. They paid the $25,000 fee and overnight the fake manufacturer had a "Best of Class" Rating. Well, you know the rest of the story, people believed in the rating and internet shoppers across the country were cheated out of their deposits and in many cases payments in full, for spas that were never shipped. A total of 94 people never recieved their spas. The lucky ones that did recieve a spa, have no warranty. Which the internet seller, promised a 10 year equipment warranty. But, hey they were "Best of Class". Dave.
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$399.99 to my paypal account.
brewman says 10k, now you are at $399.99. you guys really need to get your pricing in order. ;D now i got to redo my math (1 us=10k paruvian.......thats about 20 cents to equal $399.99 paruvian)
you guys take looneys and tooneys????? might have some of those left from my ohio days. fiy, they dont pass as paseos
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Sure you can pay with Peruvian currency, but the exchange fee is a flat $10,000 USD per transaction.
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Sure you can pay with Peruvian currency, but the exchange fee is a flat $10,000 USD per transaction.
hey, no changing currency after the deal was done!!! you never stated in what currency the 10k was in, so i took it upon myself to decifer it. :o i like my version better :D
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What a surprise. When I visited the web link there were 5 names mysteriously missing with only the word "details" left to link. What's up with that. They all happend to be Watkins links, C, H, H, S, & T.
Regardless, the way I see it is Watkins marketing department must see some value in buying stars for each of their nameplates and it must be for some good reason. This amounts to some big bucks that must certainly come from somewhere. It is a shame that quality goods must employ and financially support such superficial, obviously bogus and misleading information, but that is marketing and advertising to the gulliable american consumer that believes most of what they see and read.
They do, however, seem to be the biggest spender. The indications dictate the stars must work, whether they are real or not.
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Having been in the computer business for nearly 20 years, I see the number of homes with internet ready computers rising dramatically each year, that might spell the end of the this practice. Besides email, shopping research is a top reason I hear for having a computer.
I see I am not the only one else with nothing to do tonight. Battlestar Galactica in one hour!
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I see I am not the only one else with nothing to do tonight. Battlestar Galactica in one hour!
Old one or new one?
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What a surprise. When I visited the web link there were 5 names mysteriously missing with only the word "details" left to link. What's up with that. They all happend to be Watkins links, C, H, H, S, & T.
The following is MY opinion.......
What you noticed is the reason I think Watkins is NOT paying for the stars. All of their brands link "through" http://altfarm.mediaplex.com, or mediaplex.com.
mediaplex is an online advertising company. Companies contracts with them for online advertising. mediaplex then gets "special" links placed on various websites. If you right click on the link, then choose properties you'll see the URL the link is to (try it on the banner ad at the top of this page). The links for mediaplex, and other similar advertising companies) "redirect" to the actual web site of the manufacturer. Mediaplex keeps a log of every link thats clicked. They then charge the company the ad is for, AND the web site where the link was clicked gets a piece.
As a hypothetical example take the banner ad at the top of this page. If you click it, the company it's advertising for pays 25 cents to mediaplex. Mediaplex then pays the owner of this site 10 cents.
Before you yell, "FOUL! What do you mean Watkins isn't pay the 25k like everyone else?" That page has been around since at least May 08, 1999 (my earliest copy). In my opinion, the page may have started out as some kind of attempt to rate spas, but at some point it was seen as a way to make a lot of money. I don't think anyone will disagree that Watkins has to be in the top class. AND, if they aren't, a LOT more people would question the validity of the ratings. Because Watkins does a lot of online marketing, there then becomes the opportunity to "partner" with an advertising company and get paid for every click on their name, This also brings up the possibility that other companies listed as top brands (that deserve to be there) may not be paying for the listing, but are listed to give the list more validity.
REMEMBER, the foregoing has been only my OPINION.
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This amounts to some big bucks that must certainly come from somewhere.
From spa sales. That's what they do.
Terminator
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Knowing that this site is a ratings paid site that is deliberately misleading spa buyers, it seems that those manufacturers who pay for the best of class ratings are no more misleading than the MS shows that are decried here. I'm not in favor of ANY misleading advertising--MS, HS or otherwise. Seems like the major manufacturers would stay away from these kinds of practices but the draw of the dollar has its own sway. I guess my point is that those here who have made MS to have the most deceptive, "fraudulent" advertising should consider this in the same light.
Please accept my apologies in advance if anyone takes the above as a personal affront--that DEFINITELY is not my intention. I just see parallels between the two.
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I just see parallels between the two.
Me too.
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the change in "ratings" aside, the practice of "buying" stars does not sit well with me. reminds me too much of the BCS in college football.
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I look at it like this:
These guys came up with a pretty savvy way to make some money without hurting anyone. Evidently, that website draws enough attention to where most of the major spa companies decided it would be better to go ahead and shoot for a high rating rather than have their spas sitting there with one or two stars.
When I say that they're not hurting anyone, I base that on the opinion that if a spa shopper uses that website as a major deciding factor in the purchase of their spa, then they probably deserve what they get.
I had a customer buy a Vanguard from me and his co-worker bought a Gulf Coast because they had the same rating as HotSpring. Both men are happy with their purchases at this time, but only one of them has local dealer support for his spa. Time will tell which one turns out to be happy in the long run.
Terminator
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The page, in MY OPINION, has become nothing more than extortion. Take for instance one of the companies with a top rating, that DESERVES to be listed there. What happens if they decide to "no longer pay the price", and are removed from the list?
I truely believe there are a lot of gullible shoppers that believe the list is completely valid. Don't forget, probably more that 99% of shoppers recearching spas on the internet never see these message boards.
How many times have you seen a post asking about a specific brand of spa, wondering WHY they either aren't on the list, or have a low rating? Or someone defending the brand of spa they bought BECAUSE it has a high "rating".............. multiply that by, 1000....... maybe 2000?
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Doc, I agree with your opinion. I see it that way as well. BUT, what other options are there for the spa companies other than banding together (like THAT would ever happen) and boycotting the sight. Sure enough, if a few of the more respected spa companies decided to do that, there would be some of the fringe spa companies seize upon this "opportunity" to get a leg up on the big boys.
It's a rock and a hard place the way I sees it. :P
Terminator
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I've definatly hit "information overload" on this.......
Was going through some of the records I have and LOOKIE what I came across. The following is an exerp from a article in Pool and Spa. It's a direct quote from the owner of the company........
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On poolandspa.com, the top-rated manufacturers pay to be on the site, receiving links and inclusion on the comparison spreadsheet for their purchases, according to Harrison. “We don’t hide that,” he says, adding that funding is needed to maintain the site. A statement on the home page explains that the site runs advertising.
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Nice Job Doc,
I'm glad you found the quote. Three manufacturers told me the fee was $25,000 for the Best of Class Rating. Whenever, I challenge the site about the payment for Best of Class, on their board, I was jumped on by the moderator. He always stated it was totally false, that the manufacturers got "Best of Class" because they checked them out and they deserved to be there. I do think it can hurt people, 94 people lost deposits on spas never shipped by that "Best of Class" company that skipped with everyones money. I spoke to more than a few folks here in Southern New jersey, that all said they were impresssed by their "Best of Class Rating" and it made them feel comfortable with their purchase. The dealer used the Best of Class symbol in all of his advertising. So, I do think it can hurt people. I know, because that company that skipped was located only 10 minutes from my showroom. They were a new startup, that came and went. But, they were "Best of Class" according to that site.
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cappy, would i have to pay more since you have 500 more posts than i do?? hahahaa
Yes, most definitely you have to pay more. Especially since a few months ago several of us had our posts decrease and mccall hasn't given them back...HA!!
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I do think it can hurt people, 94 people lost deposits on spas never shipped by that "Best of Class" company that skipped with everyones money. I spoke to more than a few folks here in Southern New jersey, that all said they were impresssed by their "Best of Class Rating" and it made them feel comfortable with their purchase. The dealer used the Best of Class symbol in all of his advertising.
But WAIT!!!!!!!!! That company is STILL on the list, though reduced to "Other Brands".
Call me tomorrow, I got a couple things I'd like to talk about.
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Doc,.
I'll give you a call tomorrow. Dave.
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Yes, most definitely you have to pay more. Especially since a few months ago several of us had our posts decrease and mccall hasn't given them back...HA!!
now i have to pay you, wmccall AND brewman??? thats getting expensive! i think i will do it the old fashioned way, ill earn them!!! lol