Hot Tub Forum

Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: blizzard on December 09, 2005, 07:54:03 pm

Title: ozone damage
Post by: blizzard on December 09, 2005, 07:54:03 pm
I was out looking at hot tubs the other day and at one dealer when they lifted the cover there was a white haze or film on the head cushions. When I asked why this was so, the dealer told me it was because of the Ozonator. Is this true?
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Vinny on December 09, 2005, 08:53:12 pm
Ozonators can damage headrests and covers if the gas isn't absorbed into the water
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: J._McD on December 09, 2005, 09:50:11 pm
Vinny is correct, any ozone that is not "consumed" by bacteria, virus, mineral or nutrient while it is in the water, it will accumulate under the cover until it escapes or "oxidizes" something, that being the underside of the cover or the pillows in this case.  If the pillows have been affected, you will notice the "bleaching" of the underside of the cover on that spa as well.

All Hot Tubs are different and so are the ozone purification systems that are on different Hot Tubs.  Some ozone system are specifically designed to "insure" that ozone will not "gas off" the water and that all of the ozone is neuturalized so that it will not cause this to occur.  Obviously, this was not one of those systems.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Vinny on December 09, 2005, 10:14:16 pm
I should have said used in the water not absorbed into the water. All unused ozone will off gas.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: blizzard on December 09, 2005, 10:16:29 pm
The salesman also said that the tub had been on display in the showroom for about a year. I personally would have thought  that after sometime when the head rests and such started to look bad they would have replaced them, since the whole purpose of a display modle is to impress verses raise questions about design or system problems.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: blizzard on December 09, 2005, 10:18:36 pm
So does this mean the system is creating to much ozone ???
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Vinny on December 10, 2005, 08:38:14 am
It is too much ozone for the system they are using.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: HotTubMan on December 10, 2005, 10:03:09 am
Quote
So does this mean the system is creating to much ozone ???

Or the system does not keep the ozone in the water long enough. The ozone is generally created in the equipment area and mixed/injected into the plumbing line returning to the tub. The length of hose that the ozone/water mixture travels through will dictate how much ozone may gas off into the spa. Ozone gas has a very short life in water. 20-30 seconds. It can exist longer once airborne.

P.S. I had posted this with someone elses account by accident, fixed.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Soakin on December 10, 2005, 10:07:54 am
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P.S. I had posted this with someone elses account by accident, fixed.
How did you do that unless HTM and Vinny are kind of like Spiderman and Peter Parker?
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: drprwnap on December 10, 2005, 10:07:55 am
Quote
I was out looking at hot tubs the other day and at one dealer when they lifted the cover there was a white haze or film on the head cushions. When I asked why this was so, the dealer told me it was because of the Ozonator. Is this true?



Blizzard,
What brand of tub is it?  I'm sure that shoppers would like to know so they can ask the dealer and search for more info on it.

drprwnap  8)
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: HotTubMan on December 10, 2005, 11:16:44 am
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How did you do that unless HTM and Vinny are kind of like Spiderman and Peter Parker?

I posted it as "shander". He is my boss. I didnt notice he was logged on.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: socal on December 10, 2005, 11:46:56 am
sounds like the contact chamber isnt long enough...or not there at all.  :o what brand was this?
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: blizzard on December 10, 2005, 12:39:18 pm
This was a Vita spa. I'm pretty sure it was the Cabaret.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Mendocino101 on December 10, 2005, 02:48:45 pm
does anyone know of CD ozonator that is UL approved, I do not think one exists. Ozone is great but to much of a good thing can still be to much.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Guzz on December 10, 2005, 03:04:25 pm
HotSprings Cd Ozone system is UL approved.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Mendocino101 on December 10, 2005, 03:31:33 pm
Quote
HotSprings Cd Ozone system is UL approved.

Help me out here...If it is not installed at the factory ....than how can it be UL approved are you sure about this....
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: East_TX_Spa on December 10, 2005, 03:36:30 pm
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Help me out here...If it is not installed at the factory ....than how can it be UL approved are you sure about this....

I just went and looked at one and it has the UL label on it.

Terminator
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Guzz on December 10, 2005, 03:41:43 pm
Thats what I did Term. by the way, have you learned Waltzing Matilda yet?
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: East_TX_Spa on December 10, 2005, 03:48:03 pm
Quote
Thats what I did Term. by the way, have you learned Waltzing Matilda yet?

No, but I bloody well will by the time we touch down in the Penal Colony.

Edit- I learned it!!!!

Here, let me sing it for you....



Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong

Under the shade of a coolibah tree

And he sang as he watched and waited 'til his billy boiled

You'll come a-waltzing matilda with me


Waltzing matilda, waltzing matilda You'll come a waltzing matilda with me And he sang as he watched and waited 'til his billy boiled You'll come a-waltzing matilda with me

Down came a jumbuck to dri-ink at that billabong

Up jumped the swagman and grabbed him with glee

And he sang as he stuffed that jumbuck in his tucker-bag

You'll come a-waltzing matilda with me


Up rode the squatter, mounted on his thoroughbred

Up rode the troopers, one, two, three

"Where's that jolly jumbuck you've got in your tucker-bag?"

You'll come a-waltzing matilda with me


Up jumped the swagman and sprang into that billabong

"You'll never take me alive!", said he

And his ghost may be heard as you pa-ass by that billabong

You'll come a-waltzing matilda with me....

How'd I do?


Terminator
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: ssbraun on December 10, 2005, 03:53:58 pm
Quite the voice you've got there!

Steve
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: East_TX_Spa on December 10, 2005, 03:55:19 pm
Quote
Quite the voice you've got there!

Steve

Just like Barry White (well, more like Uncle Remus).

Thank you, thank you very much!

Terminator
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Guzz on December 10, 2005, 04:09:28 pm
Now you've got to learn what all that stuff means.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Mendocino101 on December 10, 2005, 04:10:21 pm
Quote
Just like Barry White (well, more like Uncle Remus).

Thank you, thank you very much!

Terminator

I heard recently where they pumped Barry White music into a lobster farm and this is supposed to be legit that the lobsters were more pro creative .....
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: blizzard on December 10, 2005, 04:12:52 pm
Sounded more like  ??? can't  hardly remember the duo. Oh yes Bevis and Butt Head.   ;D
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Markus on December 11, 2005, 08:51:40 pm
I've had my HS Vanguard spa for about 2 months and my cover has already begun to show signs of bleaching on the underside of the cover. I didn't think this was due to the ozonator but rather the heat and chemicals...
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: J._McD on December 11, 2005, 09:29:13 pm
Definitly not the heat, the chemicals can definitly damage the cover but the chemicals are in the water not the "air lock" under the cover.  Because ozone is a gaseous form, it is most likely the ozone especially in 2 months time.

Chemical gases will actually "burn" the cover and cause it to get a "ripple" effect to it, as it will affect the vinyl.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: blizzard on December 11, 2005, 11:35:06 pm
If ozone bleaches out the pillows and the cover  would it be better to not have ozone and just sanitize with chemicals? Anybody else having problems like this with their spas? Is ozone benifical enough to warrent it damaging parts of the spa? What little bit I've learned about spas and ozone it's my understanding that there are different kinds of ozone systems. What kind of ozone system is in the hs and vita spas?
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: steve771 on December 12, 2005, 01:21:27 am
I use that protectant (303? something like that) on the pillows and it seems to help.  Just a thought...
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Markus on December 12, 2005, 09:17:01 am
I'm now wondering if others are having a discoloration problem with the underside of their spa covers as well...

I just thought that this was a normality with the cover being in that environment.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: drewstar on December 12, 2005, 09:45:02 am
Quote
I use that protectant (303? something like that) on the pillows and it seems to help.  Just a thought...



Steve

Do you use the protectant on the underside of the cover? Do you use it on the pillows too?
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: SerjicalStrike on December 12, 2005, 10:32:06 am
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Help me out here...If it is not installed at the factory ....than how can it be UL approved are you sure about this....


The actual ozone generator is UL approved.   I don't know if the tubs themselves would lose their UL listing if the ozones were installed at the factory.

A more extreme case of this is a certain dealer that puts ETL approved equipment in a cabinet and calls the whole thing ETL listed.  
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: J._McD on December 12, 2005, 11:22:20 am
When a manufacturer submits the Hot Tub to UL, he must submit each model to them as it leaves the factory destined to the consumer.  Most manufacturers have ozone as an "option" that is then installed by the dealer at time of delivery.

ANY changes the manufacturer makes to that particular model then requires that it be resubmitted for approval or recertification.  The manufacturer cannot make any changes after certification.  IF the dealer installs an ozone, this sould be a UL listed ozone, if not, it invalidates, or otherwise voids the UL certification.

The tub is UL listed ONLY as it is submitted to them for analysis.  Any future changes or additional improvments made by the manufacturer invalidates their listing.

All manufacturers that I know of are using a UL listed ozone system as an option the dealer adds to the spa.
Quote
If ozone bleaches out the pillows and the cover  would it be better to not have ozone and just sanitize with chemicals? Anybody else having problems like this with their spas? Is ozone benifical enough to warrent it damaging parts of the spa? What little bit I've learned about spas and ozone it's my understanding that there are different kinds of ozone systems. What kind of ozone system is in the hs and vita spas?

Ozone is a powerful oxidizer and will literally "eat" or destroy rubber base materials within 60 days even in the EQ area where residual O3 does exist.  Thus, all seals and o-rings MUST be ozone compatible.  

During the late 80's cover materials and stitching were destroyed by ozone and the cover fell apart in short time.  For that reason and with the use of ozone gaining popularity, covers had to be made with materials that were more compatible, or otherwise minimally affected by the oxidation of ozone.  This is the same for pillow materials.

If anyone would like to test this theory, put something under the cover for a weeks time that is made of rubber and witness the results.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Mendocino101 on December 12, 2005, 02:05:41 pm
Quote
When a manufacturer submits the Hot Tub to UL, he must submit each model to them as it leaves the factory destined to the consumer.  Most manufacturers have ozone as an "option" that is then installed by the dealer at time of delivery.

ANY changes the manufacturer makes to that particular model then requires that it be resubmitted for approval or recertification.  The manufacturer cannot make any changes after certification.  IF the dealer installs an ozone, this sould be a UL listed ozone, if not, it invalidates, or otherwise voids the UL certification.

The tub is UL listed ONLY as it is submitted to them for analysis.  Any future changes or additional improvments made by the manufacturer invalidates their listing.

All manufacturers that I know of are using a UL listed ozone system as an option the dealer adds to the spa.
Ozone is a powerful oxidizer and will literally "eat" or destroy rubber base materials within 60 days even in the EQ area where residual O3 does exist.  Thus, all seals and o-rings MUST be ozone compatible.  
.

Thanks J_Mcd,
That is my understanding and also I guess where the wiggle room comes in. I knew of no spas that were UL approved that shipped with a CD ozonator.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Markus on December 12, 2005, 02:21:22 pm
Are we better off without these ozonators in the HS line of spa's?

It seems that we could maintain the spa water without the ozonator which could be causing premature aging of the plastic/rubber components.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: J._McD on December 12, 2005, 04:19:39 pm
Quote
Are we better off without these ozonators in the HS line of spa's?

It seems that we could maintain the spa water without the ozonator which could be causing premature aging of the plastic/rubber components.

If you are using BaquaSpa products, YES, otherwis NO and that is just MHO.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: HotTubMan on December 14, 2005, 09:41:04 am
Quote
When a manufacturer submits the Hot Tub to UL, he must submit each model to them as it leaves the factory destined to the consumer.  Most manufacturers have ozone as an "option" that is then installed by the dealer at time of delivery.


I guess this is another difference between ETL and UL.

BTW, when I began selling D-1 (don't anymore) the tubs all had ozonators (except @home series) and were UL listed..
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: windsurfdog on December 14, 2005, 11:26:16 am
Quote
Do you use the protectant on the underside of the cover? Do you use it on the pillows too?

drewmeister,
I use 303 on every square inch of my cover--top, bottom and sides including vinyl and webbed handles.  Mine has slightly faded on the bottom but shows no other signs of wear.....about 1.5 years of use now.  The top is in the sun 100% of time during the day and still looks and feels like new.  I use it on the headrests as well as the plastic diverter handles and air controller knobs.  I even use it on the control panel and the auxilliary pump control buttons.  Great stuff...... 8)
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: Kyle on December 14, 2005, 01:13:35 pm
Most ozonator units are UL approved as stand alone units.  However,  UL has different tests in order to give it thumbs up if installed from the manufacturer.  It costs money and time to do this so most manufadcturers do not have installed approval from UL or ETL.  It's simpler to let dealership install.  They also do not have to regulate ppm injected into the spa, which can cause excessive degradation of accessory items, i.e. pillows, covers, etc.  It doesn't mean that a company who does not get approval hasn't engineered a spa that measures up to UL standards, it just means they do not want to pay for approval.  Very similar to ISO 9001.  Many companies would pass 9001 certification standards but refuse to pay huge sums of money for company to tell them they are doing it right anyway.
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: blizzard on December 14, 2005, 05:01:27 pm
How can you tell if a spa or acc. that is put in the hot tub are UL or ETL approved?
Title: Re: ozone damage
Post by: J._McD on December 14, 2005, 07:38:56 pm
Quote
How can you tell if a spa or acc. that is put in the hot tub are UL or ETL approved?

They will have a UL or ETL certification sticker on the item.  If you don't see it or find it on the product, it is not UL or ETL, simple as that.