Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: tped on December 01, 2005, 10:37:31 pm
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I've been struggling with an indoor hot tub for about the last three months ... relatively new to the whole Hot Tub thing but seemed to be doing fine for my first 6-8 months before this.
For the last few months the tub seems to get dirty very quickly. Even when recently cleaned, we tend to cough while in the tub and dirt rings seem apparent. Water is clear, about 2 weeks old, tub has been used possibly 1-2 times since the last water change, filter cleaning and new purifier cartridge (oxidizer).
I've had water tested at the dealer, they claim it looks good and once attributed the coughing to chemical saturation eventhough I didn't think many chemicals had been added ... I simply adjust alkalinity and ph after filling then MPS before or after use. Test strips indicate that things are good - water looks clear doesn't really smell, yet we tend to cough when we are in there.
any ideas/guidance would be appreciated
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I'd be interested in hearing opinions on this as well. Sounds a bit unusual.
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bromine or chlorine?
MPS would hint to bromine, but just want to make sure.
Also, what color is the ring/stain?
MPS will release gas - indoors that could be your cough problem. Shocking after use rather than before and ventilating well for a couple minutes (not covering up the tub right away, but letting it run for a couple minutes and airing the entire room) could solve the cough problem.
I know that the first time I shocked my tub, I covered it right after. The following day, when I uncovered, I was hit by a gas pretty good. I've since learned, from reading on this sight, not to do that. Besides being rough on people, it's rough on covers.
Does the room smell "chlorininy"?
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I had the coughing problem for a while on an outdoor spa, believe it or not. Also had the ring problem around the same time. But after reading your post, I see that our situation was not the same, I was using Soft Soak (Biguanide). I've since switched to an ozonator, Nature 2 cartridge and SpaGuard Enhanced Shock and have not had the coughing problem nor the ring around the tub since.
The only thing I can attribute it to is my sensitivity to the Soft Soak. As you know, when running, the spa churns up millions of tiny bubbles which are basically micronizing whatever chemicals you are using in the tub and spraying them right into your face. So, if you are already sensitive to the chemical (no matter what you're using), its going to make it even worse. Next time you drain and refill, you may want to consider switching sanitizers and see if that helps. Good luck!
-Sarge
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It may have nothing to do with your chemicals. I don't know what kind of ventilation you have for your indoor location, but check carefully around the outside of the tub and in the area around it for any signs of mold. That sort of thing can cause coughing and a whole lot of other real bad things. Good luck...I hope you find your problem.
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If you are not using a saznitzer like chlorine or bromine or a biguanide system, you need to strat. Not using a residual sanitizer can be very dangerous for your health.
Without using a sanitizer like the ones mentioned above, you could have had bacteria growing in your tub for the last 6-8 months.
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Wow! What replies! I wish some of my boards (I'm a techie) would be so active ... thanks all... here are answers to questions in order received...
bromine or chlorine?
MPS would hint to bromine, but just want to make sure.
Also, what color is the ring/stain?
MPS will release gas <Clip> Shocking after use rather than before and ventilating well for a couple minutes <clip>
Does the room smell "chlorininy"?
- it has an nature2 system on it - a cartridge that goes in one of the filters. 'Purifier?". And corresponding ozone gizmo in engine compartment - Repair guy claims this appears to be working. I did change brands this last go round (2 refills ago - approx Oct 1) - I also chlorine once a week.
- Ring was brown when it was bad (changed water on this one) now seems to just be a faint dark discoloration
- we can try to consistantly shoking AFTER use and airing out for a few minutes before we close the cover. I think we've been trying it both ways here recently
- Room does not smell chloriniy - water even smells fresh up close
I had the coughing problem for a while on an outdoor spa, believe it or not. <clip>I've since switched to an ozonator, Nature 2 cartridge and SpaGuard Enhanced Shock and have not had the coughing problem nor the ring around the tub since.
The only thing I can attribute it to is my sensitivity to the Soft Soak. <clip> you may want to consider switching sanitizers and see if that helps. Good luck!
-Sarge
We DID change brand of chemicals - still a nature2 system, but different brand - not sure if these could irritate, but its all of us, not just one person affected.
It may have nothing to do with your chemicals. I don't know what kind of ventilation you have for your indoor location, but check carefully around the outside of the tub and in the area around it for any signs of mold. That sort of thing can cause coughing and a whole lot of other real bad things. Good luck...I hope you find your problem.
- Will do - ventillation is really good, I'm pretty observant (anal) - but I'll check, perhaps have someone come in?
If you are not using a saznitzer like chlorine or bromine or a biguanide system, you need to strat. Not using a residual sanitizer can be very dangerous for your health.
Without using a sanitizer like the ones mentioned above, you could have had bacteria growing in your tub for the last 6-8 months.
- I'm pretty new - does my ozone box, nature2 system qualify as a 'biguanide' system? Is bacteria detected when the water is tested at the Pool Store?
Yikes! ... I'm getting nervous here
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No the Nature 2 system is not the Biaguide system.
I think you need to have a sanitizer in your program. The Ozinator, and the N2 Cartridge aren't enough. I am under the impression that you have a Watkins product, and typcally Dichlor is the recomended sanitizer.
You should be sanitizing your tub with Dichlor (not MPS Shock) after each use, and about once a week using the MPS.
I do not know if this is the cause of your coughing, but it can't hurt?
?????
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thanks - I will check the chemicals they gave us - I'm not sure about the MPS vs Dichlor vs shock. I may have mis-represented what we use ...
I had someone out and guide us on chemical usage, and also follow the instructions that come back when the water is tested - but quite frankly, I'm so dang confused right now that I'm thinking about fixing it with a chainsaw and a dumpster.
everyone tells me that once you figure the chemicals out its simple - but this has not been the case for me ... especially recently
its a hotsprings
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I had the same problem. Coughing and the water always seemed to have a strange odor. My dealer recommended a product called Spa Sentry, which is officially a PH lock product (Make sure you have your ph balanced first before you use it). What it does in addition to ph control however, is cause an unbelieveable amount of crap to come out of solution in your water. Turn on the jets, add a whole bottle of spa sentry and get an entire roll of paper towels, because in a few minutes an amazingly disgusting brown ring is going to form on the side of your tub. Start wiping it away with paper towels. After about 20-30 minutes it will stop. This eliminated both my brown ring and odor problem.
I bought a water filtration/purifier system for the house drinking water after doing this the first time because I could not believe what I was drinking out of the tap.
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If you have not been adding sanitzer and you are getting a cough when using the spa, discontinue using the spa.
You will need to superchlorinate the spa to kill all the bacteria in there. This can be done by turning all the diverter valves to the middle position, turning on all air controls, and dumping in 4-5gallons of bleach. Turn on all the jets for 10 minutes. Then turn them all off and let the water settle for 5 mintes. Repeat turning on and off the jets for 1 hr and then drain the spa. Fill the spa up again and get the chlorine level up to the 3-5 ppm range.
You will also need to get on a schedule for using a real sanitizer when you done using the spa each time.
If your coughing persists, you may need to see a doctor and let them know the situation with the spa.
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Wouldn't the dealer have given us a "real sanitizer" as part of our program? I'm sort of confused ... I'm at work but had somone read the bottle to me over the Phone ... it is "Brilliance Shock" an orange bottle active ingredience is Peroxymonosulfate (is this MPS?). We put this in before (or after) each use - supposedly went with the new cartridge (nature2).
If I need to supernuke w/ bleach - should I leave all filters, cartridges and such in the tub when superchlorinating - Perhaps throw them all away after the fact and start new?
Jeeezzzz this is creepy ... that chainsaw is looking mighty tempting
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From what I understand(and its still all pretty new to me too) is that with the start up of Nature2, you need to add dichlor to your water. Maybe you're over doing it with the MPS.(?)
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I THINK I'm beginning to understand here - slowly putting two and two together ....
Dichlor = Chlorine(?)
- yes, I do add this at start up (after initial filling and balancing) and then weekly
MPS may or may not = Shock(?)
- we were told to toss in after each use
I'm wondering if a 'sanitizer' is a gizmo (perhaps floating) that is in the pool all the time. We never had anything like this, and as I mentioned earlier, did fine with the tub for the first 6-8 months ... cleaned, refilled a number of times BUT kept using the 'program' (aka chemicals/cartriges, etc) that were provided by the previous homeowners. UNTIL these ran out, I took the bottles and such to the dealer who didn't carry the same brand, but DID sell me alternatives ... this is when I began to struggle!
If we have a nature2 system and a bottle of "Brilliance Shock" and chlorine (same as Dichlor?). Should we toss shock & chlorine in after each use? and leave the cover open to ventilate?
one thing for sure ... these hot tubs sure are relaxing! I'm all stressed out over the 'see your doctor' part!
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Despite what the Nature2 box says, you still need to use some sanitizer. I also use nature2 and have Ozone, but I consider them a backup. I use DiClor (2 tsp) after each use and shock with MPS about every 10 days. If you have truly not been using any sanitizer, I cannot belive the nature2 and ozone would still be keeping your water clear. Go to Doc's site and read Vermonter's water care method. It works great for me.
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So I have it backwards? I think half my problem is acronyms and nomenclature...
- Chlorine after each use (please confirm that DiChlor is Chlorine)
- Shock every 10 days (please confirm that "Brilliance Shock" aka Peroxymonosulfate is MPS)
The only reason it stays clear is that we don't use the tub - and since the change in 'program' the water goes bad and I change it - 2 water changes since 2nd week of October. We've used the tub probably 4 times
Doc's site?
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Although you say that ventilation is really good, with an indoor tub, mold or allergies to the gases coming off the tub could be likely culprits of your symptoms. The recurring "dirt" points more to mold. Do you have 24/7 ventilation along with more that kicks in when you have the cover off the spa? Do you monitor humidity levels?
It does sound like you could use more information on sanitation and water management. I would suggest a visit to the rhtubs.com site and look at the sanitizer info sections and the Vermonter and Northman posts in the FAQ. They provide a good background on hot tub water management.
As previous posters have said MPS is an oxidizer, not a sanitizer and IMO, Nature2 should be viewed as a supplemental sanitizer, not the primary one. You need dichlor, bromine or one of the other bacteria killing chems as part of your routine, and you need to monitor residual levels to make sure you have enough in there to keep the nasties away.
Good luck. Keep us posted as you sort through this.
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So I have it backwards? I think half my problem is achronyms and nomenclature...
- Chlorine after each use (please confirm that DiChlor is Chlorine)
- Shock every 10 days (please confirm that "Brilliance Shock" aka Peroxymonosulfate is MPS)
The only reason it stays clear is that we don't use the tub - and since the change in 'program' the water goes bad and I change it - 2 water changes since 2nd week of October. We've used the tub probably 4 times
Yes. Dichlor is chlorine. Use after each soak. Chlorine will santize your water and kill bacteria. Use your test strips to make sure you are acheiving the appropriate amount of chlorine levels. You levels will drop in a day or so, but don't worry about that. You want to have high levels after you get out of the tub, but have them drift lower the next day or so, when you get back into the water.
Yes. Peroxymonosulfate is MPS. Use every week to 10 days depending on use. The shock will burn up all the sstuff that the chlorine has killed, and free up the chlorine to do it' s job.
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I can't believe how responsive this group has been
thanks - all of you
It sure sounds to me that we got the instructions wrong (backwards) when we had to buy our own chemicals. We had instructions and supplies from the previous homeowners - worked GREAT. BUT ... We never paid attention to what we were dumping in there (e.g. DiChlor vs MPS). Our instructions were like "toss in some of the stuff with the orage cap after each use" and "a little of this once a week".
The timing was about right. When we ran out of supplies and had to stand on our own - we goofed it all up ... the tub began to give us problems about this time!
I'll look at the Vermont guide and see if I can fix this thing
thanks again, everybody
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So it seems we haven't identified the problem, but it does seem to be that a change in your water treament is needed.
Recaping
1) Clean out the tub with the bleach as Serjical stated and do a water change out.
2) Get on the Dichlor program as the Rhtubs site outlines
3) The ventilaton may be an issue. I think there is a recent topic that deals with this in greater detail.
4) The coughing could be caused by the heavy MPS use, (we've been discussing MPS and out gassing recently here as well) hopefully with the new routine this will be eleviated. ?
5) I've read reports where some folks are highly sensitive to ozone. It dsoens't seem to be too common place but I have heard about it. It can cause coughing and irratiited throats. It can aggreviate ashma as well.
It should not be a pain to take care of the tub. Honest. If it is, something is wrong.
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Now that we figured out you were not using chlorine, you really should go and see a doctor and have them take a look at the cough.
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Now that we figured out you were not using chlorine, you really should go and see a doctor and have them take a look at the cough.
Hot tub lung?
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hot-tub-lung/AN00660
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Hot tub lung?! I don't think so - but we'll watch it
Nobody has a chronic or ongoing cough ... we had to be IN the tub, close to the water ... even then its was more like a tickle/tendency to cough sort of a thing. Stopped as soon as you stood up or got out.
We probably used the tub 2-3 times since the situation started and I HAVE been chlorinating once a week whether we used it or not ... so I'm feeling better that it was probably caused by tossing MPS into the tub every couple of days and before we used it....
but we'll keep an eye on it
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I was thinking more along the lines of this:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/legionellosis_g.htm
My guess would be that this isn't the case, but with the symptoms and the history of the spa, I would rather be safe than sorry.
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Tped .... You're getting some great info & suggestions from the resident experts here .... Here's my $.02 worth. I'm a hot tub newbie myself (not quite 2 months. I experienced the same thing with coughing. I chalked it up to "over fragrancing"? When my nose was very close to water level, those "microbubbles" would tickle my nose & take my breath away, making me cough & choke a little. Same thing happens to me in a steam room @ the club. Certainly don't discount anything anyone else here says .... like I said ... they're very knowledgeable, & in my case, maybe ignorance is bliss, but as the fragranced got diluted by topping off & just dissipating on it's own, I found the coughing went the same route .... Good Luck!
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tped
Any updates on how things are working for you?
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The cough... ???
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Sorry - I owe you guys an update
I explained it to the chemical/repair guy - he knows the tub, ventalation and such. He had us do a healthy Chlorine dose ... and talked me through chemicals
It seems that I was adding chlorine (Dichlor as you guys call it) weekly - which is why it stayed clean - whether we used it or not - we rarely do. Adding MPS just before getting into the tub appears to have been the stinker.
Water is nice and fresh now - no coughs when I put my face down there - but I don't think anyone has been in there - sort of spooked.
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Everybody says the great thing about MPS is that you don't have to wait for the chlorine to subside, like you would with a chlorine shock....well I threw in a shock dose of MPS one day and hopped in about 20 minutes later.....the water felt slimy when I was in there, and turned my skin all pruney in record time.....and the vapour coming off the water was smothering....