Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Steve on November 30, 2005, 12:41:57 am
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Hey all. I'm looking at gathering a clear understanding of this certification and the real substance behind it. I'm having difficulty locating a clear source on the net so if any of you have a link or information, I would greatly appreciate it.
I've done a search and I understand that this has nothing to do directly with building a "quality product", but rather following steps or guidlines in a repetitive manner. I'm just unclear on what seperates them from any other spa manufacturer in this regard?
Also, what's your opinion on ISO and why? Thanks,
Steve
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Steve,
I strongly believe that pure and simple it only exists for marketing purposes ....It does not mean you build a better product nor is it a safety standard of any kind like UL or ETL ....it can be argued that is helps in maintaining product consistency ....but if it did not offer a marketing angle, it would be something that none of us have ever heard of......its not a bad thing it is just in the big picture it is of very little substance value....I hope that this does offend any dealers who product has this but I feel the same way about consumer digest which the product I represent uses in its marketing as well....
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I agree with mendocino. The company I work for is going through the ISO certification process now & in my opinion it is a sales & marketing tool only. I deal with alot of different customers who are ISO certified & it sure seems like their procedures are lacking. ISO cert. is basically having procedures in place to make sure you are doing what you say you are doing. Honestly, I think it is almost totally useless. Again...just my 2 cents.
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I don't know exactly what the ISO certification is but if it means putting guidelines and procedures in place to assure that every manufactured article for a particular model(type etc) is done the same, it may be a bit more than a marketing tool. I can only relate this to the things I am familiar with in the pharmaceutical industry. Basically what I imagine is that ISO certification will enable companies to collect trend data and troubleshoot
manufacturing problems. In itself, the certification wouldn't indicate quality, instead consistancy. A kind of "if this, then that". If all teletubby tubs are manufactured of identical quality parts and assembled in the same order, then you would expect them to perform in a very similar manner. This could also help manufacturers to estimate warranty periods and streamline production schedules. You would think that most manufacturers already have process guidelines in place, so this may be just fluff for some.
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Steve try this
http://www.iso.org/iso/en/ISOOnline.frontpage
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I am a VP for a company that is ISO certified and have been for 8 years. It is much more than a marketing tool. It can be used as a way to run your business. It helps define the structure with work instructions to ensure that you are consistently and reliably making product to meet your proscribed standards. It also has a focus on customer complaint reporting and a mechanisim to self audit your processes to ensure you are doing what you say you are doing.
It will not garuntee you a good product, but if you do it for real and not just as a marketing gimmick it will improve your business performance, your product quality and give you a stable environment for employees to train and understand their jobs.
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It will not garuntee you a good product, but if you do it for real and not just as a marketing gimmick...
I guess that is the wild card isn't it? How is the consumer to know if it is adopted as a marketing tool or a way of doing business by a mnufacturer (or in this case, assembler)
Steve! Where have you been? I hope ypur absence means you've been busy signing dealers up.
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Nitlion15, I am also guessing that it will help set standards for global manufacturing and marketing?
Who assures that a manufacturer is in compliance? Are there audits required to renew the certification?
The consumer is always looking for something solid to use as a comparison of products. I know I use tons of resources before I do a major purchase...this purchase was by far the toughest for me. If the ISO is an indicator that a company desires to improve it's quality, then it would be a good thiing for the consumer.
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I think I've mentioned it maybe twice in sales presentations over the years. I'm fortunate in that I have so many other items of interest for the consumers that the ISO 2001 certification of my product is something I have rarely had to use. It seems to be of interest to some of the engineering oriented spa shoppers, but everyone else could care less, same as me. It is good to know that it's there if that is something that is important to the customer.
Terminator
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Nitlion15 pretty much expained it all
one example of a company that is 9001 certified is Coast spas not to bad mouth them but all I hear and read is how many people have problems with there tubs with leaks and failure of components. Their production procedures may up to the standard but when you use poor products or poor staff appliyng these procedures the cetification becomes nothing more than an expensive marketing tool.
I ve dealt with distributors that are certfied and it definitely didnt make them better then the others.
It all comes down to who oversees quality control.
my rambling is done.
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Steve, If you want to try and talk to someone about it first hand I would suggest Gib-san pools in Toronto
they are the 1st pool and spa service company that is ISO 9001 certified they might be able to help you out with what your looking for www.gibsanpools.com
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Nitlion explained the advantages of ISO 9000 very well. I would like to add that any company that makes the investment to become ISO 9000 certified is bound to improve quality and customer service over time. Done properly, ISO certification provides an excellent platform for doing business.
Regards,
Bill
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Thanks everyone for your input on this.
I've always seen this as a marketing tool as well for the most part though I do strongly believe that consistantcy in manufacturing is important. The part that I'm having difficulty getting my head around is that every major manufacturer, certified ISO or not, has implimented a very thourough, consistant process in manfacturing and more importantly, a very high level of quality control.
Do we know the cost to become ISO certified?
Yeah, HTM, it's been busy and I haven't been around a whole lot lately. I guess I should post a bit more here over the next couple of days as I think I'm 3 posts away from joining the "elite 1000 post club". I can hardly wait for my new BMW. Do I get to choose the color? ???
See ya in Niagara Falls my friend!
Thanks again guys!
Steve
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Nitlion explained the advantages of ISO 9000 very well. I would like to add that any company that makes the investment to become ISO 9000 certified is bound to improve quality and customer service over time. Done properly, ISO certification provides an excellent platform for doing business.
Regards,
Bill
Bill and Nitlion,
It can help improve certain things but many many other avenues to do this are available things like lean manufacturing....without out the marketing angle of ISO 9001 it would fail to exist. maybe a company who needs help in some ways are sold "this" program as opposed to another but again there are many other available whose focus is more internal without the marketing of ISO 9001.
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Interesting that you bring that up Mendo; Hydropool implemented the concepts of "lean manufacturing" this past September.
This concept was first created by Toyota in the 1940's and they have virtually perfected this proccess. We're very excited to have it as part of our manufacturing and combined with the many changes and improvements for '06 including a total rebranding of our company, we're looking for a very strong upcoming year.
Chat soon bud!
Steve
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Good discussion, one point though.
Lean Manufacturing and ISO are two different items. Lean is focused on reducing waste, eliminating non-value added steps from the manufacturing process, and keeping Work in process inventories low (because the process is reliable) and improving the manufacturing process. ISO will help in this but it's main thrust is to improve overall process and product quality by a rigid adherence to documented instructions and procedures and developing a culture of continuous improvements.
Also, ISO requires that an audit by an independent outside registrar be done every 6 months to maintain certification.
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Good discussion, one point though.
Lean Manufacturing and ISO are two different items. Lean is focused on reducing waste, eliminating non-value added steps from the manufacturing process, and keeping Work in process inventories low (because the process is reliable) and improving the manufacturing process. ISO will help in this but it's main thrust is to improve overall process and product quality by a rigid adherence to documented instructions and procedures and developing a culture of continuous improvements.
Also, ISO requires that an audit by an independent outside registrar be done every 6 months to maintain certification.
I agree completely that they are different yet both will or should help to improve the manufacturing process and if a company seeks the help of either one it is a company that is looking for an edge or help in their process. What I believe is that ISO 9001 makes its revenue because of the marketing and that is what they offer. Company's can say we have a process in place look these respected folks ISO 9001 keep us in-line so to speak to adhere these standards and than include it in their marketing, take away the use of the name ISO 9001 on packaging , ads, brochures and the program goes away.
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...take away the use of the name ISO 9001 on packaging , ads, brochures and the program goes away.
While that may be true to a certain extent on consumer goods like spas, it seems to me that ISO certification would still be important in OEM and other business to business relationships. Having worked with a few companies that have obtained ISO certification, my impression was that they did so because many manufacturers demanded it of their suppliers. The customer wanted an easy way to verify that the vendor had processes in place that resulted in consistent performance, and that the process could be easily audited if problems arise. Obtaining certification can be an exhaustive process if done right, and I don't think anyone would undertake it purely for marketing reasons.
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Obtaining certification can be an exhaustive process if done right, and I don't think anyone would undertake it purely for marketing reasons.
I think the marketing machine behind this certification is brilliant. Absolutely it is going to increase sales or at least has the potential to. It gives the prospect a certain "peace of mind" and as they decide on a brand for its warranty or other features, they may well hold a high level of value in this as well when sold properly. The cost and time to get certification could very well have a short pay-back period. Why do you think the companies that have ISO, use it in their sales materials and presentations?
I'm not knocking this but merely pointing out that it does have a benefit to the dealer in more ways than just providing a product that is constructed in a consistent manner. It’s a sales tool as well and IMO, it gives those dealers a competitive edge in their presentations when sold correctly.
Steve
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I'm not knocking this but merely pointing out that it does have a benefit to the dealer in more ways than just providing a product that is constructed in a consistent manner. It’s a sales tool as well and IMO, it gives those dealers a competitive edge in their presentations when sold correctly.
Steve
Some "poo-poo" it but the reality is that it does do well in the sales presentation for teh dealer and it does do well for teh manufacturer to impliment. It does not mean the manufacturer can't have their ducks in a row without it but it does help those who may not otherwise.
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Some "poo-poo" it but the reality is that it does do well in the sales presentation for teh dealer and it does do well for teh manufacturer to impliment. It does not mean the manufacturer can't have their ducks in a row without it but it does help those who may not otherwise.
Agreed.....and that is the point if you are consumer who puts value into this it is a good thing....If you are one who investigates things you may find it to be of less importance .....In business to business situations it is very common for company's to have a criteria list for those who they contract with and good record keeping is very important and this is something that almost assures this ....
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...Absolutely it is going to increase sales or at least has the potential to. It gives the prospect a certain "peace of mind"...Why do you think the companies that have ISO, use it in their sales materials and presentations?...It’s a sales tool as well and IMO, it gives those dealers a competitive edge in their presentations...
I didn't mean to imply that it doesn't have marketing value, rather that I think that most companies would find that the cost in dollars, time and effort to get certification would not be deemed worth it purely for marketing purposes-- when selling an end product to consumers. You would be better off the buy one of the consumer "best buy" ratings that are for sale by magazines in return for an advertising purchase, or your own energy efficiency test by an "independent consulting firm"
IMO your dealers would be wasting time trying to explain and sell the value of an ISO certification when they could spend that time selling the value of the spa itself. Do you really want the conversation to be about how consistent your manufacturing processes are when the other dealer is talking about how consistent the enjoyment of their spa is?
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"Peace of Mind" is something I fervently offer to my customers and they really do seem to like it.
Terminator
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ISO certification doesn't mean jack squat to me. I used to work in a factory that had ISO certification. We made automotive parts. I can distinctly remember having an audit done one time. The inspectors came in and shuffled through the paperwork to make sure certain proceedures were in place and that everything was up to snuff. The inspectors and our QC people got along quite well and after awhile the inspectors quit looking for mistakes, missing procedures, etc. As important as this inspection was for future business and future contracts with the "Big Three", not one auditor ever came over to the assembly lines themselves to observe the actual process and final product. They stuck to the paperwork and the air conditioned offices. Also, even with all the paperwork in place the factory was still using 20 year old machines(that frequently broke down) to construct parts. Some of the parts were produced on an assembly line so it was still up to the guy at the very end to catch any mistakes, missing parts or incorrectly assembled parts. My point is that you can have all the ISO paperwork in place and pass whatever inspection you have to go through but in the end human error can still send a defective part or hottub out the door. I suppose ISO may mean something in a sales brochure or at a white collar presentation but in the end it is simply a paperwork shuffle.
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hey Steve, If your interested...PM me with your mailing address and I will mail you a copy of the standard 9001:2000 (unless you can get it online?), and a copy of the ISO/TS for dummies version.
I am a Management Rep (TS 16949/ISO 9001 Rep), and Six Sigma problem solver for one of the Big 3 manufacturers.
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hey Steve, If your interested...PM me with your mailing address and I will mail you a copy of the standard 9001:2000 (unless you can get it online?), and a copy of the ISO/TS for dummies version.
For dummies.....why not just post it here for all of us to see....Steve is not the only dummie here..... ;)
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Alright Mendo...I just finished telling people in another thread how great you were.... Gotta go find that delete button.... ;)
I'll send you a PM fletch. I appreciate that. I've tried finding it on line but without success.
Steve
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Alright Mendo...I just finished telling people in another thread how great you were.... Gotta go find that delete button.... ;)
I'll send you a PM fletch. I appreciate that. I've tried finding it on line but without success.
Steve
Steve,
Thank you for your kind words. I just want you to know I always have your back and I felt it was wrong to single you out as the only dummy here.... there are obviously several others ..... ;)