Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: leaky on September 01, 2005, 11:35:01 pm
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Per your suggestions, I stopped by the local Lowe's and picked up the last remaining 60 amp GFCI spa box for about $80. I will yank my "pull box" and replace it with this new one.
As my spa will sit in the middle of the side patio (and have heard nothing back about "bonding" to the BBQ island), I am assuming my wiring is sufficient. I will now re-connect the wiring to the spa box, with the neutral to the load neutral on the GFI. The red and black lines to the spa will connect to the load terminals on the GFI, and the lines from the main panel will connect to the "line" terminals within the box. I will also insert the 60 amp circuit breaker in my main panell, and attach both the ground and the neurtal to one bus, as my house is not wired separately for ground and common.
I hope I will then be ready to accept my new baby in a couple of weeks!
Sorry to banter on about this, but I want to make sure I've got all my rubber ducks in a row and have no issues when it rolls into the back yard.
Greg
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You'll be fine.
Brewman
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When I wired mine a few days ago I used the load neutral from the GFCI, which kept tripping the GFCI.
I called up a Vita Spa dealer who said the neutral (same as ground; common bar in my box too) should come directly from the panel, so I moved it from the GFI to the neutral bar in the panel.
Yours may not trip since you are connecting the bonding wire to something other than the panel.
BTW, the SquareD 60amp breaker does not even include a load neutral post.
-John
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You need to run the neutral pigtail on your breaker to the neutral buss in your panel. In a main service panel, the neutral and ground busses are usually bonded so it doesn't matter which buss, in a sub panel they are often not bonded so if that applies do not connect the neutral pigtail to the ground buss. Know which situation applies to you before you connect those wires.
Bonding is a seperate thing. If you are required to use a bond wire, usually you'd connect from the bonding lug in your spa to whatever grounded metal you're required to bond to. Not to be confused with grounding.
Brewman
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I'm back with more questions. Let see if I have this correct.
If I use a spa box with a GFCI breaker I attach the pigtail from the GFCI to the ground in that box. Then I run the common (ground) from the terminal block in the spa back to the MAIN panel in the house. Correct???
Sorry but I'm very electrically challenged!! ;D ;D
I'm just running wire and will have someone else hook up. I just want to run it right
Thanks!!!
drprwnap 8)
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Inside your spa panel, is there a ground buss bar and a neutral buss bar? If so, are they physically bonded or unbonded?
Bonded means that they are connected by some conductive metal.
I'm not familiar too much with spa panels, but I believe that these may be considered sub panels, which have specific rules regarding the neutral and ground bars being bonded.
If your spa panel needs to have neutral and ground bonded together, it doesn't matter where you attach the neutral conductor, the ground wire, or that white pigtail on your breaker. If you are required to keep your neutral and ground buss seperate, then it matters where you attach those wire, and they'd need to be kept seperate.
If you are uncomfortable with this, check with your local electrical authority, or leave the wiring to a pro. Pool and spa wiring isn't a good beginners project to cut your teeth on.
It can get complicated.
Brewman
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Thanks for the reply, brewman. The more I think about it, I'm just going to get a GFCI breaker for the main panel in the house and forget about the disconnect box. If my spa needs service, I have an outside garage door operner that I can reprogram a code for the tech (if need be). My panel is in the garage.
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Here is how mine is set up. It may vairy tub to tub, but in my case all the neutrals are on one bar in the SquareD 50A spa pack (as opposed to the load neutral coming out of the GFCI "load neutral" side).
Source power from panel is on the right, tub is on the left.
(http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/1009846/1126276344155_1124783391700_PICT0008.JPG)
:coool:
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Great pix, Hubjeep, and THANKS. That is the way I was going to run my Epic hook up but the guy at Lowe's said that the GFCI will trip. Any problems with that for you???
drprwnap 8)
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...That is the way I was going to run my Epic hook up but the guy at Lowe's said that the GFCI will trip. Any problems with that for you???
It did trip when I had the load neutral on the load neutral output of the GFCI, after I moved it to the bar on the right (connecting it directly to the panel; as the spa dealer told me) it was fine.
The spa dealer said mine (Vita Spa Elan) is does not require a neutral (only two hots and a ground), hooking the neutral output of the GFCI to the tub "ground" confused the GFCI, the ground really has to come directly from the panel. Keep in mind, my panel has a common neutral/ground bar (both are connected to the same bar).
-John
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Nice Pic. If the bars are seperate, keep the neutral and ground seperate.
If your spa is like mine (No neutral), don't use that neutral terminal on the breaker. Just put the pigtail on the neutral buss, and run your hots and ground out of the panel to your spa. I used a pull box for my shutoff, and put my GFI in my main panel, didn't need to run a neutral to the pull box.
One thing I still don't understand is why the only 60 amp GFI availble in my area (Square D QO series) doens't have a neutral terminal. Must be that whatever they were originally designed for didn't require the 120v power feed that the neutral in a 240v circuit supplies.
This thread has gotten me curious enough to find out, though.
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I'm not sure if mine is different or not. My Midwest box looks different. It even has the capability to add another GFCI to it, with additional attachment terminals. Also, the pigtail came connected to a bus, and there is a large diameter aluminum rod that is mounted to the back face and truncates in the middle of the box, attached to nothing.
I'll take a jpeg of it and try and figure out how to post it. Then maybe Brewman, STL, Hubjeep, or another guru can steer me the right way. I think I have it "wired", but additional help can't hurt!
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Show us the PIC, and we'll see what's up.
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See if this works....
(http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/2688/gfi0021ye.th.jpg) (http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gfi0021ye.jpg)
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So how do I make it big like Hubjeeps?
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Thanks for the reply, brewman. The more I think about it, I'm just going to get a GFCI breaker for the main panel in the house and forget about the disconnect box. If my spa needs service, I have an outside garage door operner that I can reprogram a code for the tech (if need be). My panel is in the garage.
The NEC requires a disconnect within sight of the Spa. There's also a maximum and minimum distance but I don't recall them.
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The GFCI box certainly has to qualify as a disconnect. It will be just about 5' from the corner.
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So how do I make it big like Hubjeeps?
That is between you and Hubjeeps ;)
(sorry, but you set up the shot so nicely I had to take it)
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Just double click on the photo, and it launches into a larger version of the pic.
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The GFCI box certainly has to qualify as a disconnect. It will be just about 5' from the corner.
The panel counts as a disconnect, as would any breakers installed in the spa itself. As would a pull box.
This means of disconnect would be at least 5' from the water (not the spa but the water as the crow flies), no more than 50' away, and within line of sight from the spa. Except the breakers in the spa cabinet, which still count as an allowed shutoff, but don't comply with the other rules.
I won't even mention that some inspectors require a 120v gfi protected outlet no closer than 10' but no farther than 20' from the spa.
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Brewman,
You're quite the comic.....I usually don't leave myself open like that....!
Now that you can double-click and enlarge the image, anyone prepared to offer a dissertation on the proper wiring?
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I'm not sure if mine is different or not. My Midwest box looks different. It even has the capability to add another GFCI to it, with additional attachment terminals. Also, the pigtail came connected to a bus, and there is a large diameter aluminum rod that is mounted to the back face and truncates in the middle of the box, attached to nothing.
I'll take a jpeg of it and try and figure out how to post it. Then maybe Brewman, STL, Hubjeep, or another guru can steer me the right way. I think I have it "wired", but additional help can't hurt!
The GFI pigtail is correctly connected to the neutral buss. Leave it there. That other isolated bar on the far right is your ground buss. That's where your ground pass thru wires will attach. Do not put ground wires on the neutral buss, or vice versa.
There should be a schematic sheet you got with the panel to explain how to hook up the incoming power wires to the correct lugs for the hots and neutral.
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Thanks Brewman.
That was the plan. Attach both line and load whites to the common bar along with the pigtail; attach both grounds to the ground bar on the right-hand side. There is a wiring schematic on the lid of the box that shows what terminal connects to which side of the GFI. That will determine where the red and black load and line wires attach. All should go pretty smoothly. I'm still not positive what the large aluminum bar is for...
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In your picture there is an unused terminal block that appears to be connected directly to the box frame. That would be used to connect a bonding wire. The bond is usually a bare copper wire that allows the branch wiring to have a common connection.
It can be confusing, neutrals, earth or ground connections and what gets bonded or landed where. Some circuits are really two 120 vac circuits fed by two hot wires with one neutral. Others are 240 vac and the neutral is not carrying current for this type.
Usually you get a picture of how the spa mfg wants to connect?
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If your spa requires a neutral, be sure it goes to the neutral connector on the breaker.
I also would love to find out why there is no neutral connector on your breaker Brewman: I haven't heard of that before. Might be for some specialized application as you said - let us know if you find out anything.
thnx
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Will do, Chas. Fortunately for me, the Optima doesn't require a neutral, so I didn't have to deal with that issue when I did my wiring.
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Equipment using a GFCI breaker greater than 50 amps have NO application for 110volts thus a neutural is not part of the breaker. A wet boring drill using that amp capacity needs the 60 amp GFCI breaker but has nothing to do with 110 volts.
Best source of information I would recommend is looking up Square D in the yellow pages and call them directly and speak to one of their engineers for a technical explanation. I find most electricians very confused when it come to three wire hook ups. They seem to insist on using a neutural on the load screw even though when they get to the spa there is NO place to put the neutural wire. When they put it on the common buss bar it trips the breaker, guaranteed.
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Hello Everybody
You do not get wiring advice from your dealer!
Some facts
1: Ground and neutral are not the same thing. The neutral point (X0) of a transformer shall be grounded at one point. This should be at the transformer.
2: You DO NOT connect the neutral that goes to the tub to the neutral on the line side of the breaker. It's your skin, not mine!
If you have anything on the output of the GFCI that causes it to trip, then you did it wrong. If your tub does not use the neutral, but you installed a cable with the white wire, cap it at both ends. do not connect the neutral to the ground at any point.
If you don't know, call an experienced electrician.
Save your a$$, not your money.
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Equipment using a GFCI breaker greater than 50 amps have NO application for 110volts thus a neutural is not part of the breaker. A wet boring drill using that amp capacity needs the 60 amp GFCI breaker but has nothing to do with 110 volts.
Best source of information I would recommend is looking up Square D in the yellow pages and call them directly and speak to one of their engineers for a technical explanation. I find most electricians very confused when it come to three wire hook ups. They seem to insist on using a neutural on the load screw even though when they get to the spa there is NO place to put the neutural wire. When they put it on the common buss bar it trips the breaker, guaranteed.
That pretty much sums it up from what I've been able to find. I did locate my SquareD installation sheet for that breaker, and it specifically states that their 60 amp GFI breakers do not have a load neutral connection, and therefore are only suitable for use in 2 wire applications for 240 v. Sundance doesn't require a neutral on many of their spas, including mine, so I was able to use that breaker.