Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: stl-rex on August 24, 2005, 12:21:24 am
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Unless I missed something, Arctic uses a single MicroPure filter that they claim goes to 1 micron with an effective area of 900 sqft achieved because it is roll and not a single or even low number multi layer pleat. Equating a spa filtration system to a home air purifier, you pass air through a carbon filter to catch macro particles (Dust, hair etc) and then a hepa for purification. Some spas employ a similar system where a macro filter catches fine debris and then one or more filters actually do the purification. Did I miss something or did Arctic eliminate that macro filter? For those who own, doesn't it have the potential to clog the Micropure Cartridge which could require frequent moderately expensive filter changes?
As you can see, I'm a newb, but am carefully examining all my options and evalutaing strengths and weaknesses of potential spas.
For those who have, how many hours a day do you have yours filter on average? Do you use Cl or Br and do you use the floating dispenser? I wonder if it's only filtering 4 hours a day or so if the standard ozone is effective. God I hate to open the ozone debate.
I can't open the manuals on the internet. If you have standard ozone does it imply you can keep the Cl or Br levels lower?
Please don't hijack this topic with FF vs TP stuff.
Thanks.
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I don't own an Arctic but I can tell you this. Your reading to much into the filter. Rinse it once a week in heavy use and everyother week with light use. Keep your sanitation level good (in my case it's dichlor and 3-5 after use 7-10 PPM for a shock) seems to be the perfect amount for my 400 gallons. Keep your PH in range 7.2-7.6 (your Total Alkalitity at 80-120 will help hold your PH)
You may have been sold something special or so you though, but a filter is a filter and your water will require between 4-12 hours of fitration per day depending on use. If your water gets exceptionaly dirty you may need to run the filter cycle for a day. But once you have a handle on your waters needs it is very easy. The main thing is to relax, keep your sanitizer at an exceptable level and don't micro manage your water. Test it once per week. untill you have learned how much and what it needs then you can test it even less often.
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Thanks. I haven't been sold anything........yet. ;) Still examing options. Unfortunately, I can't seem to spend this kind of dough without over researching. On something like Master or HS, where there are 3 or 4 filters, I forsee higher expenses if you follow their replacement schedule. I got to thinking I only saw the one filter on Arctic which struck me odd based on what I perceived to be standards of filtration (macro - micro, not all in one.) If effective, the nice thing about it is it takes up little overall space.
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For those who have, how many hours a day do you have yours filter on average? Do you use Cl or Br and do you use the floating dispenser? I wonder if it's only filtering 4 hours a day or so if the standard ozone is effective. God I hate to open the ozone debate.
Our regime is very typical. We filter 4x/day for 1 hour. We use bromine pucks in a floater. Our water maintenence is usually very simple (the water coming out of the tap on re-fill was problematic). We change our filter every 3-4 months (when we change the water). My wife and I use the tub virtually every night for 30 minutes. We have no kids. We do not use ozone.
As for rinsing of the filter each week, we have never been instructed to do that with this filter. In fact, I can't see it doing anything - the filter wouldn't release anything (trapped within the wrap of the fibres).
Hope this helps and good luck with your search!
Jc
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When considering the cost of the filters, one should not only look at how many need replacing but also how often.
The Micropure Filter required replacing every 3-4 months. Prices will vary from market to market. Central Spa Supply ( an Ontario supplier of filters/parts and accessories to many retailers) lists this filter at $49.4.
I do not know the filters used by Master or HS.
I do know the cost of the alternate filter that could be used by Arctic. It lists in the same catalogue for $54. Filter cleaner in same catalogue $18.2/Litre. Clarifier $11.4/L and Enzymes Cleaner $24.26/L. These chemicals are a little pricy (rebranded SpaGuard) but lets use them in this example.
So lets consider 4 years of use.
MicroPure in 4 years presuming you change it every 3.5 months.
48 months / 3.5 = 13.7 filters
14 * $691.6 on filters
Using "macro" C-4950 replacing the filter every 1.5 years cleaning it every 3.5 months with chemicals, using enzymes weekly and clarifier as needed.
48 months / 18 months =2.666 filters
3 * 54 = $162 on filter
Using 100 ML/ of enzyme =4.8 bottles needed
5 * $24.26 = $121.3 on enzymes
48 / 3.5 = 13.7 filter chemical cleanings using 1/2 litre
7 bottles of flter cleaner * 18.2 =$127.4 on filter cleaning
Lets assume 3 bottles of clarifiers are used in the time. $11.4*3=$34.2
Using the Unicel "macro filter" you could expect to spend $162 + $121.3 + $127.4 + $34.2 = $444.9
Oh, lets throw in 1 4L (gallon) bottle of defoamer @ $106.4.
New total is $551.3, still less than buying the microfilter.
So I do not see any $ saving. With good water chemistry you may not have to spend that much money using the Unicel filter either.
You will definitely have less maintenance / convenience if the micro filter lives up to what it says it does, but I see no financial reward for using it.
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On something like Master or HS, where there are 3 or 4 filters, I forsee higher expenses if you follow their replacement schedule.
Not sure about Master, but owning a HS I don't get that impression from their filters. The newer HS come with the tri-x filters which last something like 7-10 years. Comparing this to other strategies which recommend replacing certain filters on every water change (3-4 times a year) and I think at the very least the pricing is a "wash".
Additionally, the tri-x can be cleaned by a go-round in the dishwasher which, frankly, saves a bit on filter-cleaner (you use a surprising amount of filter-cleaner because you need to totally immerse the filter in the cleaner overnight.
People do recommend on the HS to filter-clean the filter onthe circulation pump, but having 5 filters, you can also use a filter rotation schedule to cut down on filter cleaner costs.
Personally, I think multiple filters are better than a monolithic filter. Also, micro-filters clog much faster which is probably where you are getting the idea you must clean them once a week. Lower usage will porbably extend that to several weeks.
Also, just to again, and constantly, talk about marketing bs and hype, I believe that the HS tri-x filtration system thingy offers the largest *actual* square footage of filtration. Maybe Chas can jump in and confirm this, as he is a HS dealer. I don't know what the term
"effective area of 900 sqft achieved"
means, but it sounds like marketing BS to me.
-Ed
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I am an arctic owner, as you are all aware by now. I am going to bring up a few things here. First of all, my local dealer sells three micro pure filters for 90canadian. When you add up all your chemical treatment, this is IMO to be cheaper.
The arcitc dealers seem to recommend bromine over chlorine. Arctic utilizes tri chlor which many here no is quite harmful to a hot tub, and in some cases companies void the warranty when it is used.
If you are in Canada which im not sure, dichlor is hard to find. And therefore expensive.
You remind me alot of myself when I first started out almost 2 years ago now. It is great the you are studying and researching, but dont forget the most important parts, dealer support, and comfort.
You continue to raise controversal topics which creates much heated debate on this forum. Thats fine but understand, that is why you get some of the comments that you see when you post. FF vs. TP, 1 micron filters, bromine vs. chlorine.
I can tell you that I am very pleased with my bromine in the tub, as JCDENTON is as well. We are both arctic owners and it seems to work with the tub. I dont stink after use, the bromine drops a bit but requires minimal treatment and water seems to stay well.
Someone brought up that micro pure filters over prolong use removes calcium from the water I think. I asked the dealer and they said that it was not an issue, but, the info that was presented here was very informative, and something to consider if you have issues with water out of the tap, ie hardnes, calcium etc.
Lastly, (if thats such a word) A friend from work has had his arctic spas for 3 years now. He loves it, never any issues with the tub at all. So he has used the pleated filter since the get go and has always maintained great water. Every week he did the filter cleaning and chemical treatments and did very well.
As you know, when you first buy you seem to talk hot tubs to anyone who will listen. So I told him about my micro pure filter. I said no maitenance, you are not to add all clarifiers, and defoamers etc to the water, no rinsing of the filter or soaking. He was intrigued and due for a water change.
He has been using the micropure filter for the last three weeks and he told me that his water has never been clearer. He said no maitenance is amazing, even though it did not take that long, he said he cant believe the difference.
My water is crystal clear. I consider my usage to be on the high side so I filter 3 times a day at 2 hour at a time. Giving me a total of 6 hours of filter time.
Thats it. Remember these are my opinions that I am sharing with you. Hey where are you from. If you like, you can come and check it out. Let me know.
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I can tell you that I am very pleased with my bromine in the tub, as JCDENTON is as well.
Alot of people use bromine. My friend uses it in his cameo. The bromine floater is great at reducing maintenance, if you don't have a reaction to it. Many have arguments to suggest it is not the "best" sanitizer out there, but it doesn't need to be "the best". It just needs to be low maintenance and do a good enough job so that you have clear, clean water until you have a water change.
Someone brought up that micro pure filters over prolong use removes calcium from the water I think. I asked the dealer and they said that it was not an issue, but, the info that was presented here was very informative, and something to consider if you have issues with water out of the tap, ie hardnes, calcium etc.
Interesting! I had not heard this before. I know that HS gives you a hose filter to screw onto your hose to use when adding water to the tub. Presumably, that is a micro-filter for people with water issues out of the tap. Thanks for the info!
My water is crystal clear. I consider my usage to be on the high side so I filter 3 times a day at 2 hour at a time. Giving me a total of 6 hours of filter time.
Amen! There are many ways to keep water crystal clear. My HS has crystal clear water. We don't use clarifiers or defoamers. We have 5 filters. We clean them once every 3 months. We drop a scum bug in. We add a teaspoon of MPS when we get out of the tub. We shock once a week. We have ozone and a circulation pump.
We have actually (quite embarrassing) gone almost 9 days once with *no* maintenance of the tub whatsoever. We flinched when we opened the cover expecting green goo instead of water. Nope. Crystal clear water. We shocked anyway just to be sure and got in the next day.
There are many ways to keep your water clean. The questions to ask are:
1. How often do I have to "maintain" the filtration system?
2. When I have to change the filter(s) can I clean it or do I have to buy a new one?
3. If I can clean it, how easy/expensive is it to clean?
4. If I can clean it, how long will it last before it needs to be replaced?
5. How easy is it to clean, what do you do with the tub while the filters are out? (some turn off the tub, some people buy a spare set of filters).
Know that most larger manufacturers will keep their water clear according to some schedule. You are evaluating that schedule and whether it works for you. Trying to evaluate over whether any given schedule keeps the water clear is the wrong argument.
-Ed
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Bosco, where you addressing me or Ed (or both) in your last post?
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Thanks for the comments.
Bosco - my simple question regarding heater and pump specs got hijacked. Trust me I've seen the debates. I didn't try to get it going.
This one however I anticipated some rivalries to appear, but I had to ask the question. I believe I recall the dealer indicating the filters were $30 apiece. I personally don't mind flipping for the filter if it is effective and eliminates filter cleaning and reduces or eliminates the need for enzymes, anti-foam etc. I assume the quarterly or so filter change requirement is built into the fact these will clog because they trap down to 1 micron. BTW - Sundance claims similar filtering capabilities.
The dealer runs bromine with the floater. So you're saying if you run Arctic brand Chlorine in the floater it will be Trichlor?
Can dichlor be run in a floater or is that over kill. I've seen the "typical" dichlor schedule; a couple of tbs after each use, keep cover up 10 min, close up repeat this after each use. and weekly shock. That seems simple also. But if I can keep chlorine at 1ppm using a floater, would that be OK also (assuming it keeps the water clear)?
The 900 sq ft area is going to come from the many layers of filter through which the water is pushed. If I recall, the nearest analogy would be a roll of paper towels. By the time you made it all the way through, the effective area through which the water passed would be much more than the size of the roll itself. It make sense. Is it marketing? Who knows. The Arctic guys here have that filter and say their water is clear with that one filter and the use of sanitizer without use of other chemicals. At a minimum, I'd say it works.
As far as the schedule to which Ed refers, the less work the better. He's right - evaluate what it takes. Since Arctic only had one filter and it is disposable (ie quick and easy), I really wondered the effectiveness of it, especially since it didn't appear Arctic had a macro pre-filter which I though could clog that filter quickly.
I have to ask one more controversial question. Has Bromine been known to cause headaches? When we tested several HT's last week, eventually we ended up with a headache. We're thinking either chemicals or dehydration. The last tub we were in used Bromine. Not sure about the others. Not meaning to start a war.
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Not meaning to start a war.
Arctic posts sure seem to get that result don't they?
I certainly hope my post was not perceived as an attack.
If the micron filter does everything it claims, I think it will be a very effective and convenient product.
I do not beleive it will save any money, thats all. I made my post as long as it was, because I wanted to substantiate my opinion.
I wonder if filters, micropure or not, are recylcable? Can I put it in my Blue Box? Time to call the municipality...
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Can dichlor be run in a floater or is that over kill.
The major benefit of dichlor, as I understand it is that it does not stay in the water. Bromine is in the water all the time. Lift the lid... *bam* bromine. get in the water. *bam* bromine. Most dichlor schedules have you dropping the stuff in after you soak. It sanitizes and "burns off" so when you get in the tub the next day there is no sanitizer in the water.
I'm sure that simplifies it a bunch, but that's why i've felt people have less problems with it: they never actually sit in it.
The 900 sq ft area is going to come from the many layers of filter through which the water is pushed. .... It make sense. Is it marketing? Who knows.
I pointed out the marketing versus actual sq ft because it has come up on this board before and some people claiming to be knowledgable (through their profession) on filtration did say they knew. It might be worth a search through the archives.
If I remember correctly it has something to do with the outer layers clogging thus voiding the inner layers. To apply that to the paper towel analogy:
Go buy a roll of paper towels for your kitchen. Whenever there is a spill, don't rip off one sheet and clean it, grab the whole roll and clean it. The outter layers clog more quickly and the inner layers go unused, despite the fuzzy math.
Wait.. found the original thread:
The thread "Opinions on filtration systems" at
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1092697338;start=9
goes into this. "Shut_Down"Stranger" claimed to be a filter person. To quote:
Effective filtration, suction or pressure, is all about surface area. The pleated filter arrangement provides a lot of square footage and will generally not clog. So the multiple filter arrangment are generally better.
Since Arctic only had one filter and it is disposable (ie quick and easy), I really wondered the effectiveness of it, especially since it didn't appear Arctic had a macro pre-filter which I though could clog that filter quickly.
I believe Sundance does the pre-filter. Disposable filters are *very* easy to clean, they just cost more and in a previous post you had worried about cost. 4 water changes at $30 a pop is $120/year or $1200 over 10 years. And, trust me... food and beer and sodas and oily relatives and pets and god-knows-what-else *never* get in the hot tub between regular drainings! ;)
-Ed
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Can dichlor be run in a floater or is that over kill.
No, dichlor is only availible in granular form. The only form of chlorine puck I am aware of is tri-chlor.
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hot tub man i said 3 for 90 canadian
i wasnt trying to rebut anyone here you or Ed. Just giving my two cents.
I was not implying that it was cheaper, it just works well for me and I like it. I like low maitenance.
Now for the arctic, their brand of arctic pure, is spa boss chemicals from what I understand. Dichlor can be used with the tub,, arctic just does not sell it. If I had to choose, bromine or trichlor I would go bromine. As for dichlor it has great reviews, and something worth considering. Try both infact, one fill up with bromine and one with dichlor, evaluate and decide.
Hottub man, honestly, wasnt starting anything, just wanted to throw my thoughts into the ring.
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hot tub man i said 3 for 90 canadian
LOL.
I looked at the #'s and missed the "three". That is a good fair price.
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oh yeah and about the headaches. Actually from my understanding, some people are able to right hot tubs off on taxes due to migranes.
When I first tested a bunch, I was sitting in 102 and 104 inside the store, no outside air with room temp air. I was getting very hot and developed awsome headaches.
called my doctor, said that the heat raises your temp and headaches can occurr. She said your body will get used to it. I have had my tub one month, no headaches and the fresh outside air helps with the warm water.
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The arcitc dealers seem to recommend bromine over chlorine. Arctic utilizes tri chlor which many here no is quite harmful to a hot tub, and in some cases companies void the warranty when it is used.
Perhaps it's just me,but I am confused by the above statment.
Does artic recomend Bromine or Chlorine?
Tri chlor is the chlorine used in swimming pools. Dichlor is the chlorine used in spas. No?
I'm confused.
????
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arctic pure chemicals, which are spa boss offer, chlorine or bromine. the chlorine use in their product brand is trichlor believe it or not. I dont know why they dont use dichlor but I heard that they may be packaging it soon.
Where I am, the local arctic dealers recommend bromine for their customers, but ultimately it is your choice. I still cant find dichlor locally
hottub man can you help
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...the chlorine use in their product brand is trichlor believe it or not. I dont know why they dont use dichlor but I heard that they may be packaging it soon...
I think they must use trichlor because it is the only chlorine product available in puck form for feeders. I'm guessing that dichlor dissolves too easily to work in an erosion feeder, and combined with its quick dissipation in hot water, it would be hard to manage residuals.
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I think they must use trichlor because it is the only chlorine product available in puck form for feeders. I'm just guessing here, but I wonder if dichlor dissolves to easily to work in an erosion feeder, and combined with its quick dissipation in hot water, it would be hard to manage residuals.
Bingo
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I sell a C-4950 for $39.95 and the Mirco-Pure filter for $19.95 US dollars.
I'm not sure if they are on my web site as of yet. But e-mail me at Michael@HeavenlyTimes.com I can ship them if someone likes.
Thanks,
Michael
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Okay, so does Artic recomend Bromine or a Trichlor puck?
And since I am so inquisitive today,
why do some hot tub manufactuters recomend Bromine if Dichlor seems to be the sanitizer of choice? Does it have anything to do with the tub/filter design?
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Drewstar;
I do not beleive Bosco is stating that Arctic recommends one over the other. His dealer does.
As to why, I think it has more to with geography than what "seems to be the sanitizer of choice"
In Canada, where Bosco and I live, products like Nature II and Baqua are not approved as sanitizers and therefore are not availible through spa retailers here. I do beleive that bromine was much more popular in the US years ago...then alternatives were approved, they are not approved here.
If you want an answer as to what Arctic "approves" you should contact them and not rely on the few customers and dealers that are here.
I do not beleive any spa manufacturer specifically endorses any sanitizer. Many disapprove trichlor, calcium hypo, sodium hypo or pucks altogether, that does not mean they "approve" dichlor specifically. If excluding pucks, that would mean they "approve" lithchlor, dichlor, granular bromine, brilliance etc.
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thanks HTM.
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With an Arctic Spas any chemical can be used. Bromine, Cholrine, Baqua Spa, Nature 2, Spa Frog, etc... If you hear of another chemcal let me know and I'll get an answer for you.
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
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Okay, so does Artic recomend Bromine or a Trichlor puck?
And since I am so inquisitive today,
why do some hot tub manufactuters recomend Bromine if Dichlor seems to be the sanitizer of choice? Does it have anything to do with the tub/filter design?
My opinion on this and it's only an opinion is this. My dealer started me out on bromine. I spent 30 bucks on activator, 30 bucks on MPS and 30 bucks on a bucket of pucks. In a few months it was gone I was struggling with my water the PH and TA kept dropping so I needed PH up (which I later found out was baking soda) and it was not as clear as I liked it. So I bought more stuff to help clear up my water. Could not get a handle on it after a few water changes and got some advice that steered me to 6 lb's of dichlor for 20 bucks and some baking soda for .99 cents. It lasted for the same amount of water changes and seemed to be alot better matter of fact so much better and easier that to this day I still use it.
I use 2- 25 dollar filters and rotate them for a couple years then replace.
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why do some hot tub manufactuters recomend Bromine if Dichlor seems to be the sanitizer of choice?
I don't know that Dichlor is "the sanitizer of choice" anywhere but on these boards. Someone started a thread a few months ago asking dealers what they use personally and there were a lot more bromine responses than you'd expect from reading here.
I'm guessing that a lot of dealers start their customers on bromine because it is simpler, and allows more room for error (missed doses, vacations, amine buildup, etc). Once you get a reserve established and find the proper setting on a feeder, you just forget it -- other than shocking every so often and adusting pH back up. If that is all you use, you get used to the chlorine/bromine off-gas (the pucks have a lot of chlorine with the bromine, unless you use Brilliance)when you open the cover, and the slight cloudiness (IMO) of the water. If the water stays in condition with minimal effort, the customer is happy and the dealer has one less hand to hold.
Then the customer sees a friend's tub with clearer water and less chemical smell or gets on the internet and reads about dichlor regimines that actually have you soaking in less chemical residual, and wants to know why the dealer steered them to bromine. ??? Or conversely, a dichlor user has trouble due to missed doses, or tires of regular dosing and his/her neighbor extolls the virtues of his bromine feeder that he never touches other than to refill every couple of weeks, and that customer... Don't you feel sorry for those guys/gals? ;D
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IF we got an Arctic, we'd probably try the floating bromine and if it didn't work to our satisfaction, we'd probably switch and buy dichlor somewhere other than the dealer. Since we get start up chems, and base on responses here, I don't think we'd go with trichlor.
I've read about drying your skin out, but that can be as much a function of the spa removing all your skin oils I would think. We would be on one or the other since the Arctic system at this time doesn't accomodate Cu or Ag ion purifiers.
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We would be on one or the other since the Arctic system at this time doesn't accomodate Cu or Ag ion purifiers.
I haven't really studied metal systems, but don't you still need a halogen sanitizer to supplement?
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I haven't really studied metal systems, but don't you still need a halogen sanitizer to supplement?
Supposedly less sanitizer, but not eliminated. My apologies, I unintentionally implied something not necessarily true. Between Ozone and Metals, supposedly you can substantially reduce the halogens. But I have no way to attest to the validity of the claim and have not researched it enough to even be able to recite mfgs claims.
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If I remember correctly it has something to do with the outer layers clogging thus voiding the inner layers. To apply that to the paper towel analogy:
-Ed
That was my source of concern since no one has come back and said they have a macro pre-filter. I suppose that is accomodated in the every three to four month change they recommend.
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I don't think we'd go with trichlor.
I've read about drying your skin out, but that can be as much a function of the spa removing all your skin oils I would think. .
My dealer offers bromine but never recommends it, we use dichlor powder with a trichlor floater set to 1 opening. 1/4 cup of baking soda per week and add 1 tsp of dichlor every other soak. Water is beautiful, 3 kids, my wife and I use it daily. Spray out the filter once a week (2 minutes) and put it back in. NO WARRANTY issues either.
Ray