Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: stl-rex on August 19, 2005, 09:51:16 am
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Could someone in the know let me know a couple of things about the Arctic tubs please. I could not find it on their website. The HP (brake and continuous) of the pumps in the arctic legend+ tubs and the KW's of the heater. Looking at Tundra (probably not- too big) and Frontier. Mabye Summit if those two don't work although it has the same footprint of the Tundra, it lays differently. We're beginning our HT search and while not necessarily critical vs wet testing, it would be nice to know.
We're going to attempt to hit Arctic, D1 and Sundance. Maybe HS, Marquis and Master. If those all fail, Caldera Tahitian. Non haggled Telephone quotes yielded similar numbers for the D1 Diplomat and Marquis Epic. HS Envoy about $500 higher. Sundance was rangy at best with nothing close to a single figure on their Optima/Cameo or Altimar. The Arctic number was considerably higher, but I believe they have the most inflated starting point. I know about all the other brands but after internet research, those are to which it is narrowed.
Info/comments appreciated.
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Arctic Spa's use a 56 frame 4 hp pump (not sure if it's brake and continuous).
The heater is a 5.5kw heater (however since the heat from the pump is used to heat the spa this heater rarely comes on)
Please let me know if you need any further information.
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
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Made the rounds. D1 Californian (all that was wet) Sundance Maxxus and Bahia, Arctic Frontier and Tundra.
D1 Californian - nice tub, but not for us. The lounge is way to big and the seats are a bit deep. The adjustable four jet headrest is effective and does not splash if you keep it close to or in the water. Some of the Jets may be on bearings but they are effective and feel good. The CA has new for 2005 jets in the lounger such that if we were to buy a Diplomat, we would have them swapped into at least one of the lounges. We have to get them to fill a Diplomat. It has two loungers, but both appear to accomodate shorter people. They are heavily sculpted and I think they will feel great. If you are overweight, forget it (just being honest). Price on the Diplomat is attractive. The telephone quote was an honest misquote and gives them a nice advantage over the others.
Sundance - didn't care for either tub. Maxxus is big and impressive but not for shorter folks. Me at 5'7" and my wife at 5'2" didn't have much fun. The accussage seat is Ok, but the jets don't do much other than drill into you. The bahia fit a little better but we still didn't care that much for it. We want to wet test the Optima. The open plan was not our first choice, but the Optima center foot jets gives you two jets per foot per corner and thus gives you a nice way to brace to keep from floating. They are proud of their Spas and price them that way. Without much haggling, they seemed a bit high and the place was pushing blemished to try to be competitive.
Lastly Arctic. Both models were Legend SE's. The SE is equivalent to the legend extreme but with an extended warranty and their high performance ozone. We're considering an Extreme version. The Frontier is nice and the lounges did not produce excessive float, but with no real arm rests of which to speak they weren't as comfortable as I thought they might be. The other two seats were comfortable and although they are deep, they have arm rests which lend support and help minimize float. The whale jet will punish your feet (in a good way!). The Tundra is big and flexible. Too big for us we thought at first, but that's the one we're keying on in the Arctic line. There are 4 comfortable corner buckets that even my 5'2" wife can stay in. Two of the corners buckets have dedicated feet and wrist jets, very nice. The other two have more intense shoulder and neck therapy but you can reach two jets for your feet in the center if you desire. All 4 corner seats have arm rests which help to minimize and control float. The other three seats sit higher but still provide good therapy. You really sit down in this tub. The water level is some 3" plus below the edge by design. Perfect for keeping wind off your face. It also make for nice deep beverage holders. What I'm not sure I like is basically you run all the pumps one speed and use diverters. It is confusing for a newb to get them all straight with just a short soak. I suppose you get used to it. You can isolate certain areas, but to have the whale jet on, it takes a lot of power from other places. The therapy air is a nice touch for cool down or if you want a break and it's not terribly expensive. Subjectively, the jets in this tub were the most effective and therapeutic. Many had exaggerated massage action and felt great.
Subjectively, the quality "feel" of the spas had Artic and Sundance mostly tied with D1 trailing but not by much. Subjectively, the real Cedar Arctics were the most handsome by far, but you buy a tub to soak in it, not look at it. The optional aluminum is a bit pricey, but is totally maintenance free. Objectively, the D1 Diplomat (to be tested) has the best price point without a doubt. $8k with cover, cover lifter, ozone, steps and starter chemicals and a granite like (in stock) surface with minimal haggling seems very competitive. The others go up from there. To be fair, the others aren't over $10K
We have to go to the Master dealer to get a friend a gift for his LS1050, so we'll check them out tomorrow. They were competitive in price with the arctic and sundance, but not D1. THe last time I was there, I wasn't overly impressed.
We've already contacted our "handyman" who works construction but does side work about running the electric and pouring the concrete. No problem. We just need a price from him.
I currently lean to the Tundra based on wet testing, but the dry test of the Diplomat lounges was very encouraging. I've sat in many dry lounges and they by far were the most comfortable for people a bit vertically challenged. Today was more fun than I thought it would be.
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Arctic Spa's use a 56 frame 4 hp pump (not sure if it's brake and continuous).
The heater is a 5.5kw heater (however since the heat from the pump is used to heat the spa this heater rarely comes on)
Please let me know if you need any further information.
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
Michael - thanks for the info.
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Arctic Spa's use a 56 frame 4 hp pump (not sure if it's brake and continuous).
The heater is a 5.5kw heater (however since the heat from the pump is used to heat the spa this heater rarely comes on)
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
Ya see now this is the kind of post that just gets me going. So tell me Michael why do they even put a heater in then if it rarely comes on, far as I knew all tubs heaters rarely come on. So if they use the pumps to heat up the water then here in Northern Minnesota what happens when the pumps aren't running? Or do they run all day? I need about 4 hours of filtering to keep my water clear and clean, but if I have to run my pumps all day to keep my water hot wouldn't that be like a waste? A heater is made for heating water and a pump is made for pumping water or did I screw this up? Or just maybe this sales pitch regarding using the pump to heat water is slightly exagerated and should read.
"We utilize the heat generated from the filtration cycle to increase the R-Factor on our side walls which "helps" to minimize heat loss during run time.
But there's alot of tubs out there that do this so no big deal.
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Oh and stl-rex sounds like your doing the right thing, testing several brands for fit on your backside and budget. And getting a feel also for the dealers. And your not falling for salesman retoric.
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We're going to attempt to hit Arctic, D1 and Sundance. Maybe HS, Marquis and Master. If those all fail, Caldera Tahitian. Non haggled Telephone quotes yielded similar numbers for the D1 Diplomat and Marquis Epic. HS Envoy about $500 higher. Sundance was rangy at best with nothing close to a single figure on their Optima/Cameo or Altimar. The Arctic number was considerably higher, but I believe they have the most inflated starting point. I know about all the other brands but after.
sti-rex,
Great review. Since I don't have D-1 or Sundance dealer in my area I was curious what others thought. As I read through your comments I saw that you mentioned the Caldera Tahitian. For the features you seem to want and price range you are looking at, I think you should definitely wet test the Niagara as well. It is definitely my favorite from the Caldera line and is one of the front runners on my list.
On the subject of price range I agree that Arctic definitely seems to have an inflated cost point. When I was talking cost with the dealer he started high but after some haggling, he offered a number that was just a huge drop in price. For about a 1/2 hour I was stewing over the tempation to put down a deposit right then, but I just had to walk away since I had not tested any other brands. The quote was written up on a Summit Extreme but I could have chosen a Tundra or Frontier as well.
Since I have not made a purchase and might do business with that dealer I do not want to give the number, but I will say that I got the price down to a range where it was comparable to a decent deal on a Caldera Niagara or Marquis Epic.
Good luck in your search.
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The heater is a 5.5kw heater (however since the heat from the pump is used to heat the spa this heater rarely comes on)
Please let me know if you need any further information.
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
The following is a quote from Stabone (an Arctic guy):
The pumps do not keep the air space warm- the water does! Whatever heat (even if it is just small amounts through out the day during the filtering cycles) Is used not wasted to help retain air space and water temp. Unlike a HydroPool the heat from the pumps is not blocked from the water by insulation nor is the heat from the water blocked from heating the air space. The pump heat is just a bonus!!
So this shows my frustration (and others as well) when it comes to the "marketing" of an Arctic spa. Nobody there can get their story straight and they're all telling different stories. Come on guys...get one story and work on it!
Hot Tub Guru eh? The word "Guru" means; A trusted counselor and adviser; a mentor.
Yeah right! ::) With all the diffrent stories you guys have, the credibility of your company suffers. Somebody needs to be a "trusted adviser", the problem is, no one knows who believe there... ???
Steve
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sti-rex,
On the subject of price range I agree that Arctic definitely seems to have an inflated cost point. When I was talking cost with the dealer he started high but after some haggling, he offered a number that was just a huge drop in price. For about a 1/2 hour I was stewing over the tempation to put down a deposit right then, but I just had to walk away since I had not tested any other brands. The quote was written up on a Summit Extreme but I could have chosen a Tundra or Frontier as well.
Since I have not made a purchase and might do business with that dealer I do not want to give the number, but I will say that I got the price down to a range where it was comparable to a decent deal on a Caldera Niagara or Marquis Epic.
Good luck in your search.
I threw the Tahitian out there because it is a smaller version of the Geneva. I have been in it as a friend has one. Seat float in the lounge makes it not for us. If the Tahitian lounge is 6 inches shorter, it might work. The Niagra probably won't work. We need a center foot jet area for leverage, like in the Sundance Optima.
After several wet tests in other spas and getting probably close to the Arctic's bottom line, I too was
close to dropping a deposit, but we still have couple of more we want to sit in and the dealer has a little more room. Good luck and let me know what you decide.
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Ya see now this is the kind of post that just gets me going. So tell me Michael why do they even put a heater in then if it rarely comes on, far as I knew all tubs heaters rarely come on. So if they use the pumps to heat up the water then here in Northern Minnesota what happens when the pumps aren't running? Or do they run all day? I need about 4 hours of filtering to keep my water clear and clean, but if I have to run my pumps all day to keep my water hot wouldn't that be like a waste? A heater is made for heating water and a pump is made for pumping water or did I screw this up? Or just maybe this sales pitch regarding using the pump to heat water is slightly exagerated and should read.
"We utilize the heat generated from the filtration cycle to increase the R-Factor on our side walls which "helps" to minimize heat loss during run time.
But there's alot of tubs out there that do this so no big deal.
I couldn't agree with you more! In fact to go even further, why would you put such an expensive heater in the spa?
How do you keep the heat off of the equipment? Wouldn't the constant high heat in the cabinet break down the electric and electronic equipment over time?
Here's the math for horse power on pumps, it's about 4 amps for every HP so if the claim is that the pump is 5 HP that would be about 20 amps. If you have 2 pumps that would be about 40 amps. Add your heater at 15 to 20 amps and you now need an 80 amp or better breaker to run the spa.
What I'm trying to say is that if they claim over 2.8 HP than it is more than likely "brake" HP.
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The following is a quote from Stabone (an Arctic guy):
So this shows my frustration (and others as well) when it comes to the "marketing" of an Arctic spa. Nobody there can get their story straight and they're all telling different stories. Come on guys...get one story and work on it!
Hot Tub Guru eh? The word "Guru" means; A trusted counselor and adviser; a mentor.
Yeah right! ::) With all the diffrent stories you guys have, the credibility of your company suffers. Somebody needs to be a "trusted adviser", the problem is, no one knows who believe there... ???
Steve
Steve - Out of curiosity, marketing rhetoric aside, what is your opinion of Arctic spas. If the the seats fit, is there a downside to the brand? Have you wet tested them? Their jets are very diverse and effective. Every dealer has a story as to why theirs is the best. The D1 dealer here was the least aggresive, but that could have been the function of the salesperson more than anything. Other than the full foam/thermopane argument, I haven't see anything that would warn me off other than the Arctic brand is new to the area and thus the dealer is new also. Thanks!
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Steve - Out of curiosity, marketing rhetoric aside, what is your opinion of Arctic spas. If the the seats fit, is there a downside to the brand? Have you wet tested them? Their jets are very diverse and effective. Every dealer has a story as to why theirs is the best. The D1 dealer here was the least aggresive, but that could have been the function of the salesperson more than anything. Other than the full foam/thermopane argument, I haven't see anything that would warn me off other than the Arctic brand is new to the area and thus the dealer is new also. Thanks!
I do apologize for not addressing your question(s) directly in my post but the frustration with the marketing of this product is an ongoing issue and has been for some time with many on this forum.
If you go back to a number of posts of mine on this brand, you'll find that I've always considered them a decent tub. A little overpriced IMO, but decent.
That said, I believe much of this purchase is and should be the comfort YOU have with your dealer. A good dealer can make a world of difference with your purchase and that should be one of the priorities for you.
I have never wet tested an Arctic though I've sat in many dry and have yet to find one that is comfortable for me personally. We're all different sizes and shapes and that's not to say that it won't be comfortable for you. I find their molds very restrictive to move around and the use of "armrests" in the tub are usless. Once the tub is filled, your arms float and these armrests have no function at all other than restrcting movement within the spa.
I can't speak for all Arctic dealers but being 30 minutes from the factory, I hear many good things about the support from them and I do believe they look after their customers and dealers.
Where I get frustrated, is in the marketing machine they've created that moves the real focus of this purchase away from what's important and deals mostly with leaks and freezing, heating without heaters, floors that last "forever", 15 people can stand on their cover and on and on.
I don't believe these spas are any better than your average spa available today. If you wet test it and enjoy it, find great value in the product and your dealer is exceptional, then I say you've found the right spa for you!
Steve
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Steve how are things going?
You and I have had it out before; because I let my emotions get the better of me. For that I was wrong. I was sick and tired of idiot sales people from Arctic coming on and acting like idiots, saying crap like were the best, strongest covers, jump on them you will see, oh yeah and were the best. Dealer’s sales approach is like a sleazy sales guy, I do agree.
The arctic spas makes a great quality tub, however, their sales pitch has ultimately blurred their quality reputation. Arctic does in fact have a great quality made tub. Their customer service record has yet to be challenged from all the reading that I have done on this forum in the past year. That ultimately means that they back their product. Sure their have been problems with plumbing, but lets fact it, they are still kind of the new boys on the block. It takes time, and some mistakes before you become great.
In Ontario, a university called BROCK University opened in 1976. Ontario had so many prestigious universities such as Queens, McMaster, Laurier and many other reputable schools. How could a new university open and compete. Well Brock decided that they would lower their acceptance averages and quickly filled their classrooms. Over time, they became more reputable and they began to raise the averages for acceptance. Now they are a quality reputable university, haunted with the old saying, “if you can walk and talk, you can go to Brock” Sure they have a rep as a school for anybody, but the bottom line is you graduate with a quality education and degree. Now Brock has the best kinesiology and teaching education in the province.
I just wanted to post, that I do have an arctic and disagree with the suggestion that the arm rests are useless. Because you have only sat in one dry as you suggest, I would argue that you are not sure if the arm rests are a useless and that your arms float. I am going to tell you that they are great, your arms don’t float, you finally have somewhere to put your arms and there is no way that they block the flow of water as you suggest, actually sorry restrict.
Let’s face it, these arctic guys do need a new approach but the bottom line is they were coming into a market with great established companies. So how do you get to compete with these great companies? I think you need to create a buzz, and like it or not that’s what has been done. Every time the word Arctic appears in a post, it receives much attention and several replies. So crummy sales rhetoric or not, they are achieving. Arctic spas have infact become one of Canada’s top growing corporations.
IMO people either purchase tubs on impulse or they research and learn to go out and wet test and try all the brands, but at the end of the day we purchase on comfort and trust in a dealer. When you are spending 10,000 on a tub, I think that it is safe to say that if you drop your cash into a good quality brand you are going to be satisfied, as long as the tub fits you well.
I don’t think the average consumer really gives a sh it about heater output, or amps of a pump while running. Let’s face it, the tub is something we want to relax and enjoy how many times you soak in your tub and say, I wonder what the amps are right now, or I wish that I would have purchased a tub that had a different electrical configuration. It just doesn’t happen for the average consumer, maybe dealers or people in the business but not guys like me.
When we purchase a car, we go to the dealer because we have found a vehicle that has really caught our eye. So now what, we go to a dealer close by, look at it, and the first things we want to do is getting in and give it a try. We are attracted to leather seats, heated seats, stereo systems, rims, and all the fancy stuff. How many times do we get under the car at a new lot and check the size of the rotors, and ask about the heating and warping % of rotors before purchasing, or asking what type of oil do we need for this vehicle. The average person doesn’t care. We go on look and feel.
If we went and purchased by reputation only then companies like FORD would be all but gone. FORD stands for FOUND ON ROADSIDE DEAD. So how does Ford stay the number 1 selling Pickup and SUV? Its appeal and desire for the product being sold. People know that ford has had a history of lemons but the bottom line, is that they still sell.
These are my opinions only and I think that we need to stop being so technical all the time. How come when people ask about other brands out there we don’t get into the big debate of jet quality, heating elements, insulation types, pump amps and all that other stuff. We only see great tub or try this brand out by them. When people come on here with horror stories of other brands you get people come on and say, that is so unusual, you must have just got a lemon. Why not plague the whole company as you all do Arctic.
Im not upset anymore and Im not trying to defend arctic, because Arctic has done this to themselves. I just think it’s only fair to offer my opinions as a user of this brand and my experiences.
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Excellent post bosco!
For clarification, you're right that I've never wet tested an Arctic but I have been in MANY spas wet that have armrests and water is water regardless of the brand of the spa. Arms and legs float in a hot tub. It's just natural.
If yours don't in your tub, that's great. I have no way to disprove that and I'll take your word for it.
The bottom line is you love your tub and that's what's important! I repect your opinion and I hope you continue to share it here Bosco. You're a "shoot from the hip" sorta guy! ;)
Oh... and things are going very well thanks for asking. I'm typing from the beatiful country of Vancouver island (Victoria) and later today I'm going on a whale watching tour! I love my job! ;D
Steve
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thanks steve, have a great time, Canada is a beautiful place.
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Steve - thanks for the clarification. Yes the dealer did the obligatory song and dance, but there was no pressure to buy, nothing like "if you buy this today it will be xxxx dollars". Being new is a concern, but perhaps they will try a bit harder being new. Everyone has to start somewhere. Since it is a growing company, I don't forsee them tanking it any time soon. You should wet test them sometime, if anything to put the last piece of the puzzle in place regarding your thoughts on the tub.
Bosco - I agree completely with you regarding the arm rests. Sure you're arms want to float, but having the arm rests absolutely gives us a place to put our hands rather than just floating about. Since we're not the tallest folks, it helps us even more. We found all corner seats in the Tundra very comfortable. Some dry test loungers feel very comfortable dry, but aren't so wet due to float. I'm more concerned with seated comfort than being able to easily slide around and switch places.
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Bosco - I agree completely with you regarding the arm rests. Sure you're arms want to float, but having the arm rests absolutely gives us a place to put our hands rather than just floating about.
Once you get a tub and go in with your significant other - you'll know what to do with your hands! ::)
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Personally, it was the arm rests that were an important influence in our decision. Since I am the kind of guy who cannot leave his hands underwater (shrivel up fast), I needed something to rest my elbows on. The open-bench style seating reminds me of my old pick-up truck while my new contoured tub is more like my captain's chairs in my new ride.
Our arms (wife and I) do not float out of any seat really. In fact, it has never been an issue at all.
The only problem we've had with our tub (and Bosco will concur also) is some of the jets spin to the off position on thier own. Others have just popped right out. However, any jets that needed replacement weren't even questioned at my dealer. They are covered under warrenty. I also think that the dealer is aware of this in other tubs he has sold.
I also agree with Steve and the others who question the tactics of the no-heater sales pitch. Those who wish to make such statements in a forum like this should be more prepared to defend their positions - many people here are experts and should find fault with such a general blanket statement.
Just my 1 cent.
Jc
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I have something that I would like to throw-out there for arguement's sake. The statement:
The heater is a 5.5kw heater (however since the heat from the pump is used to heat the spa this heater rarely comes on)
...causes much grief and friction on this forum. I would like to weigh-in with a thought about this.
While I was just soaking in my Arctic, I noticed that my temperature was 102. Nothing new, but then I began to think about the no-heater debate that often occurs on this site. Considering that my set temperature is only 101, logically then I should be safe to assume that the heater would only be responsible to raise the water temp to 101 if necessary, before shutting off. Yet, I am over my set temp.
Now, I began thinking about the past several months. During that time our actual tub temp has always been at least one degree higher than our set temp. So is it fair to say that over the past several months the heater has not been used?
We live in the north, where summer is short and winter is not. If, however, we lived where most of you people live (warmer south of the USA), where the climate is MUCH warmer and possibly comparable to what we are experiencing here right now - would these conditions not echo the same results?
I can't help but feel that they would. If so, then the statement is not necessarily false under certain conditions. In the winter, there is NO DOUBT that our heater is a vital part of keeping the water warm.
Furthermore, this past week here has seen below normal temperatures. Near freezing at night. I could see my breath on the way to the tub. Yet the tub temp was still over the set temp.
Anyone has any gas left on this topic?
Jc
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Personally, it was the arm rests that were an important influence in our decision. Since I am the kind of guy who cannot leave his hands underwater (shrivel up fast), I needed something to rest my elbows on. The open-bench style seating reminds me of my old pick-up truck while my new contoured tub is more like my captain's chairs in my new ride.
Jc
I liked the idea of arm rests too, but my experince was a bit different. I couldn't find a tub that had molded arm rests that I felt comfortable using. Just the opposite, the tubs i tested, I found the arm rests too big and put my arms in an uncomfortable position and if i tried to put my arms down, the rests got in the way. :(
So, I guess this is a testiment to wet testing. What fits one person may not fit another.
Damn you folks with normal sized arms!
::)
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To further clarify, the dealer in no way represented the tub as not really needing the heater or that the heater never came on.
Is the Arctic method superior? I accept the fact their approach is different and that they have ARC data to back up the fact that their tub is efficient out of the box. Can other FF tubs be made more efficient with a thicker cover? Perhaps. But all things equal, ie being out of the box, Arctic holds its own. However it certainly would not entice me to buy it if it wasn't comfortable. If we find them the most comfortable, we'll focus on them. If we find D1 or Sundance to be more comfortable, we'll focus on them. We won't be focusing on Master, not because of the tub, but because we don't like the sales person there.
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I have something that I would like to throw-out there for arguement's sake. The statement:
...causes much grief and friction on this forum. I would like to weigh-in with a thought about this.
While I was just soaking in my Arctic, I noticed that my temperature was 102. Nothing new, but then I began to think about the no-heater debate that often occurs on this site. Considering that my set temperature is only 101, logically then I should be safe to assume that the heater would only be responsible to raise the water temp to 101 if necessary, before shutting off. Yet, I am over my set temp.
I too am in a cold climate and my tub is a FF Beachcomber. When I had the model without the circ pump my temp was always 2 degrees over what was set temp was due to filtration cycles heating the water while filtering. Now that I have the model with the circ pump my tub goes upto 1 degree over but rarely unless the cover has been on all day on a hot day. I would have to say you would need the pumps on at least 12 of the 24 hours to heat the water and that's if you don't open the cover and use the tub. If the pumps were that effecient at heating the water on an Artic then why not use a 4kw heater instead of a 5.5 kw heater????
Ray
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The size of the heater is more to maintain temps while you are using the tub in extreme cold!! Not for normal heating while cover is on.
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The size of the heater is more to maintain temps while you are using the tub in extreme cold!! Not for normal heating while cover is on.
Good point, but what about the other 23 hours and 40 minutes a day. Do they suggest running the filter cycle 12-18 hous per day on low speed pump without a circ pump? If they have a circ pump they don't give off enough heat to heat the water.
Ray
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While I was just soaking in my Arctic, I noticed that my temperature was 102. Nothing new, but then I began to think about the no-heater debate that often occurs on this site. Considering that my set temperature is only 101, logically then I should be safe to assume that the heater would only be responsible to raise the water temp to 101 if necessary, before shutting off. Yet, I am over my set temp.
Now, I began thinking about the past several months. During that time our actual tub temp has always been at least one degree higher than our set temp. So is it fair to say that over the past several months the heater has not been used?
You are correct! And, like most other things, this is not unique to Arctic. A good bit of it has to do with being summer.
I have a hot spring. We set the temp to 80 degrees during the summer to ensure that the heater doesn't come on. 2 days ago the tub was sitting at 101 degrees. That's with no pumps running *at all* that day, except the circulation pump.
On our deck our outdoor "stick-on-the-window" thermometer measures a temperature of 120 degrees.
Using out tub for 2 hours *last* night, with temps in the 60's, the tub dropped from 101 to about 100 (floating thermometer reading). Again, our heater is set all the way down - we don't want it on in the summer.
If anything, you are running "cool". Some efficient thermopane tubs have heat creep into the 104-105 range while operating in the summer. The most common piece of advice on this board is to prop the cover up with paper-towel rolls or tennis balls to let that heat escape. I wonder if your heat creep is constrained based on hot air escape through the sides of the tub.
The debate gets going when you start talking about running these things in the winter. What most people find ludicrous is that Arctic (painting with a wide brush here, I know) takes standard behavior/features that are in common with other tubs and then uses such behavior/features as aggressive selling points.
Here, let me pretend to be a HS salesguy:
HS doesn't use the heater to heats its water. My grandee heater has not turned on once since April and I have temps of 101 degrees in the evening when we tub. Hot Springs uses a thermal enhancement transferal system to maximally utilize the heat escape and capture from the low-energy high-filtration yield circulation pump to provide all the heat needed for this large tub. Other tubs need multi-thousand-watt expensive-to-run heaters to duplicate this very inexpensive behavior.
How'd I do? It doesn't hold a candle to some of the statements we see on here, but I'm just learning how to hoodwink... ;D
Peace
-Ed
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...HS doesn't use the heater to heats its water. My grandee heater has not turned on once since April and I have temps of 101 degrees in the evening when we tub. Hot Springs uses a thermal enhancement transferal system to maximally utilize the heat escape and capture from the low-energy high-filtration yield circulation pump to provide all the heat needed for this large tub. Other tubs need multi-thousand-watt expensive-to-run heaters to duplicate this very inexpensive behavior...
Ed, I'll go you one better ;). If I let it, my Saratoga will go into "Summer Mode" when the water temp exceeds the set temp by 2 degrees. That shuts down the heater,ozone, and the circ pump for 3 out of 4 hours so there are NO heat sources. Saratoga evidently uses special solar collecting exterior materials to capture the sun's energy and keep my tub several degrees warmer than the set point while using NO ELECTRICITY AT ALL! in the summer months :o
Now the problem with that is if that circ pump is such a great feature (it was part of their premium water managment system when I bought it), why would I want it running only 25% of the time for half the year? ???
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Soakin,
I completely forgot about those specially-treated exterior solar-reactive material on those tubs! Saratoga better keep those things an industry secret!
;D
-Ed
ps. JC, this humor isn't meant to belittle what you are observing or posting about. For all the bashing, maybe some of the other salespeople on here could borrow from (and tone down?) some of the arctic sales pitches because arctic is clearly making people think they are unique in these areas. That's the only beef, and the only "target" of the humor.
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Bosco I can agree to a certain point with your car buying analogy.
When I buy a new car in addition to the features, style, overall quality, I am concerned with how much money the thing is going to cost me in gas.
With a spa, heating costs are important to me. This is where all the talk about insualtion, hp and heaters comes in. I think many consumers do give a sh t about it. And since there's so much mumbo-jumbo out their, us consumers find ourselves trying to figure it all out.
I know an Artic owner and he's happy with his spa. From what I've heard, it is a decent spa. It's unfortunate that over zealous salesmen make outrageous claims and that causes other brand salesmen to jump on them when ever a problem is noted. Artic brings it upon themselves, unfroutantely as an Artic owner, I can see how you feel it reflects upon you.
Oh, BTW...You don't really drive a Ford, do you? ;)
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Oh, BTW...You don't really drive a Ford, do you? ;)
Hey I drive a Ford and ride a Honda. By the way in the summer months on steep hills I can achieve 50 miles an hour without using the engine on my bike, with a passenger maybe 55 miles an hour. In the winter months I get better mileage cause it never leaves the garage, on rainy days hills are hard to come by.............
Ray
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What is with this question about the other 16 to 20 hors a day that the tub is not filtering. What do other TP tubs do during those times, Arctic does the same. If the heater needs to come on it does, just like any other tub. The warm water inside the shell heats the cabinet space, (because there is no insulation around the shell like most other TP design). In the winter I recommend are tubs be set at 4 filter cycles, 2 hours at a time per day. (8 hours total, 6 hour breaks between cycles).
While the pumps run to filter, whatever heat comes from them is captured in the cabinet helping maintain the temp of both the air space and water temp. If during the times between filter cycles the tub needs to heat it will, I don't understand what is so confusing about that.
The reason the ambient heat from the pumps on an Arctic is more beneficial to actually keeping the water warm is that there is not insulation between the water and heat from the equipment, which is why the cabinet or equipment area does not have to be vented, ( to let the heat escape) It is sealed underneath the cabinet, because the surface area of the shell surrounding the water and all the piping is much larger an area for heat tranfer than other tubs have. Which results in a better % of the heat from the pumps actually working towards maintaining the water temp, even if it is the same amount of heat.
For example, this winter I took a typical TP tub that I removed from a yard. I will call this, tub 1 ( Insulation around the shell and piping, cabinet had foam board insulation attached to cabinet on the flat walls, no insulation on cabinet infront of equipment, cabinet had small vents infront of equipment. (Tub 2) Arctic Spa, 4 to 5 inches of sprayed insulation around cabinet, no insulation on fiberglass shell. ( Arctic Cover was on both tubs, the other tubs' cover was ruined)
Underneath each cabinet I put identical electric space heaters, on low speed. 2 hours later I took the covers off both tubs.
Tub 1) Cabinet air space was noticable warmer, however when I took the cover off the air space under the cover (Where the water would go if the tub was filled) was not not warmer than the outside temp.
Tub2) Cabinet air space was noticable warm, (same as tub 1, however the air under the cover inside the shell was also noticable warmer.
The same amount of heat, resulted in different amounts of heat transfered. I am not saying it is better, or more efficient, only that I don;t know why you can't see that it is different than the way other tubs transfer heat from there style of insulation. The final result maybe equal operating, that is not the issue, the issue is how the Arctic design uses the same amount of heat from pumps as other TP tubs that run on filter cycles, yet transfer more heat to the water .
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Stabone-
Good explaination!
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
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Me and Steve go at it all the time, we have even had it out on the phone. Everyone needs to loosen up on here, if you want to start running smack, which Steve has been lately, ( Which I love). I wanted to get some people fired up, this forum has been really boring lately. It is a saying, not actual fighting.... loosen up a little.
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But some TP manufacturers are adjusting the foam around the equipment to create a sweet spot where the pump motor heat can transfer through the foam and through the plumbing into the vessel. The heat created or "warmth" would be a better term, also keeps the foam sprayed on the shell as warm as the water inside thus creating 0 heat loss during run times. Add to that the benifit of less heat loss during non run times because of the foam and thermal barrier on the cabinet (assuming the R-Factor is higher) and what happens? Is it possible it runs less that an Arctic? The only unknown here is if the R-Factor is higher and that depends on the brand. So no one can assume anything here.
Good post Stabone but a few holes.
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If the warm water is used to heat the air space, then wouldn't that air space be pulling heat from the water?
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Yes it would. And unless you keep the cabinet insulated and sealed from drafts, especially in cold climates, the heat would then transfer out of the cabinet.
Brewman
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What is with this question about the other 16 to 20 hors a day that the tub is not filtering. What do other TP tubs do during those times, Arctic does the same. If the heater needs to come on it does, just like any other tub.
Didn't you just contradict yourself again? Above you state the heater is there to maintain the temperature when the cover is off.
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Drewster no fords here. I drive VW JETTA.
Oh yeah and my rare special edition Dodge Grand Caravan, silver, Oh yeah I know. Oh and it is a sports edition. She goes like stink.
Dont be jealouse, they are hard to come by, but it was just the right time. Im thinking about restoring it a bit, man when I drive the mini van, heads turn, i feel like a king.
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nothin turns those heads like a "sports edition" minivan! It a freakin CHICK MAGNET!
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Bosco...Pot some pics when you finally pimp out your mini van. ;)
Geting back to TP tubs, My concern is TP tubs claim to be more energy efficent. I haven't found a straight answer on this, or decent data that would suggest it is. Then again, I haven't seen info that claims it isn't.
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here's why...
MOST MAJOR MANUFACTURERS SPAS OPERATE AT A VERY SIMILAR COST OVER THE PERIOD OF A YEAR!!
We debate this but yet there's still guys like Stabby that feel the need to debate this further. It's splitting hairs guys and the debate isn't about who's spa consumes less energy over the course of a year, but rather putting this fictional idea of Arctic supremacy to bed!
You guys aren't any better when it comes to efficiency so it's time to make peace with that. I know it hurts... :-/
Steve
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No Steve I think Chas should make an argument for why his Hot Spring spas are the most effiecient and superior to all other FF tubs.
Chris should make an argument for why his Sundance spas are the most effiecient and superior to all other FF tubs.
Mendo should make an argument for why his Marquis spas are the most effiecient and superior to all other FF tubs.
Spahappy should make an argument for why her Coleman spas are the most effiecient and superior to all other TP tubs.
I apologize if I left anyone out. Please add your name to the list and argue why your spa is superior.
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I apologize if I left anyone out. Please add your name to the list and argue why your spa is superior.
My name is J. Ay and my Super Duper Custom spas are far superior to anything out there. They are so efficient, they feed excess electricity back into the power grid. They are so technicollogically advanced even UL and ETL can't figure out how to test them. So neener, neener, neener!