Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: velocity23 on August 12, 2005, 06:27:46 am
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Hi everybody.....I was wondering if there is a big benefit to using a 60 amp service over 50? I know the heater will run with both pumps on high using 60 amp. I live in MD....Gets kinda cold in the winter. The spa I have is a SD Optima. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Howie
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I think that the heater running with the pumps on is the benefit. We have a Sundance Cameo and we have 60 amps. Since we only have it for one month I can't say that it makes a difference yet. But we live in PA so I think that it will definitely pay to have the 60 amps.
Susan
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As long as the 60 amp electrical hookup isn't too expensive, go with the 60. The only time it'll probably matter is when it's cold out. Running both pumps at 50 amps will prevent your heater from coming on. Those pumps add a bit of heat, but in the winter in MPLS our heater does kick on when we run both pumps.
The amount of heat you'd loose depends on how cold it is, and how long you stay in the spa. We usually stay in for at least an hour.
Don't let your electrician scare you about the pricing on a 60 amp vs 50 amp install. The only difference in the wiring is the size of the GFI breaker. In my case, the 60 amp GFI breaker was $15 cheaper than the same brand's 50 amp. That was a square D brand "QO" series(Not their Homeline series).
So I'd recommend going with the 60 amp setup unless the wiring costs too much extra. No reason it should, but I've heard a few horror stories from other members of the forum.
Brewman
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Don't let your electrician scare you about the pricing on a 60 amp vs 50 amp install. The only difference in the wiring is the size of the GFI breaker. In my case, the 60 amp GFI breaker was $15 cheaper than the same brand's 50 amp. That was a square D brand "QO" series(Not their Homeline series).
Brewman
Thanks Brew...I am the electrician doing the work so the cost is not the issue. Just curious to see what everyone thought. I do need to make the jumper mod on the spa to convert it to 60amp.....not a big deal. And yes I know what I am doing ;D.
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Great! Good luck with your project. Nothing as satisfying as a good diy project, in my book.
If you can handle the electric install, the jumper setting will be a no brainer.
Brewman
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Just to chime in, I agree that 60 is the way to go. I live in MD as well and a friend of mine has a SD cameo which was wired at 50amps.
Most of the time, it really isn't an issue for him as he and his wife get in for relatively short amounts of time. When it is winter, and cold, and you have a bunch of people in the tub (thus running all pumps) the water does get noticably colder after about 30-60 minutes.
It wasn't a big enough deal to re-wire the spa for 60amp, but if you've got the option from the get-go 60amp is the way to go.
-Ed
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Just to chime in, I agree that 60 is the way to go. I live in MD as well and a friend of mine has a SD cameo which was wired at 50amps.
Most of the time, it really isn't an issue for him as he and his wife get in for relatively short amounts of time. When it is winter, and cold, and you have a bunch of people in the tub (thus running all pumps) the water does get noticably colder after about 30-60 minutes.
-Ed
Thanks Ed....I will definately wire it up for 60 amps
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ok...the GFCI Breaker we got from Home Depot (like Velocity we did ours ourselves because of one the cost and 2 we live in an older mobile home so we couldn't find an electrician that would touch it! )was a 60 amp breaker, seems to be working just fine! ;D
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I agree. For what its worth, go for the 60 amps.
My Optima is wired at 50 amps. I promised myself, if it was ever an issue, I would redo to 60 amps. So far, three NE winters and no issue with pretty much daily use.
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Go with the 60 amps........
Its a few dollars more or less then the 50s...Do it right and get the 60s...JohnnyT
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Let's first think of a time when it would be an issue. New Years Eve and you have a party. Everyone is in and out of the hot tub over a 4 to 5 hour period and the cover never gets put back on, with both motors running a lot and the cover off, you need heat. Although this may seem extreme it is not a common situation but possible.
With both pumps on high, each of them are drawing 11 amps, turn the blower on there is another 8 amps and the heater pulls 22 amps, = not enough amps to run everything.
These hot tubs have been using 50 amp service for over 25 years and it is totally adquate. But, with all the bells and whistles we are reaching the cusp of passing the capacity of the 50 amp circuit. Simply put if you are a party animal, and the tub has the potential of heavy use on one or more occasion, wire it up for 60 amps and you have all the bases covered. Wire it for 50 amps and you will rarely ever notice the difference and most likely never notice the difference.
Teenagers, well wire it for 60 amps. ;D
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If the cost is the same, or in my case actually cheaper, they why woulnd't you go with the 60?
Do you have to? Only if you want your heater to kick in when both pumps are running.
Brewman
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And, if you read the details of what your spa pulls, you are only allowed to take 80% (approx?) of the max of the circuit. At least that's how I read what the SD manual/preinstall pages say for my Max. The 60A table says you only get 48A, and the 50A version says you get about 40A (in the USA, I think it's different for Canada?). So, one more reason to actually wire for 60A!
(Is the 80% (20% loss/buffer) an NEC thing to allow for drops in the line voltage along the wire or something? Seems like a heck of an allowance. I could see 5% or something...)
Here are the 60A and 50A sections....
Factory 3-Wire Electrical Configuration
• Required Voltage: 240 VAC (2 Hots, 1 Ground); See diagram page 8.
• Required GFCI Breaker: 60 Amp Dual-pole (Hard Wired Only)
• Number of Wires: Three - Copper Only (Red, Black, Green)*
• Max Spa Current Draw: 48 Amps
Alternate 3-Wire Electrical Configuration
• Required Voltage: 240 VAC (2 Hots, 1 Ground); See diagram page 8.
• Required GFCI Breaker: 50 Amp Dual-pole (Hard Wired Only)
• Number of Wires: Three - Copper Only (Red, Black, Green)*
• Max Spa Current Draw: 38 Amps
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You are going to spend the same amount of money so why go with less?
60 amps all the way............Jt
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Definitely agree.... I never understood the limitation in the first place unless it's for folks with 100A (or 150A (is there such a thing?) service, and can't install 60A?
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From the sundance manual
"7.0 Cameo, Optima, Majesta Power Requirements
Sundance hot tubs are designed to provide optimum performance and flexibility of use when connected to their maximum electrical service. However, they are shipped factory configured for their most common preferred electrical connection as follows:
• All UuS/Canada 60Hz Models: 240VAC/50A**
If you prefer, your Sundance dealer perform a minor circuit board
modification that allows the hot tub to operate on a different electrical service (see Table below).
Electrical Service Options for All US/Canada 60Hz Models
60Hz Cameo, Optima, and Majesta Models
Voltage 240VAC 240VAC 240VAC
Max. Current Draw 26A 40A 48A
Number of Wires 3 3 3
Circuit Breaker (2-Pole) 35A* 50A** 60A***
* In this configuration, the heater will not operate while either jets pump is running or when the blower is running.
** In this configuration, the heater will not operate while both jets pumps are running.
*** In this configuration the heater will operate while both jets pumps and the blower are running
Page 14"
This Spa has
Two 2.5 Hp pumps @ 11 amp each = 22 amp
One 5.5 kW heater @ 23 amp
One 1.5 Hp air pump @6.5 amp (when under full load)
Yes, install the 60 amp service
Here are some things to understand:
1: Most electrical protection devices, (fuses breakers) are rated for 80% loading. This is why SD wants a 60 amp feed for a 48 amp load.
2: If your service is under 100 feet in length, a 2 wire (plus ground) connection is good, if over use #4 wire to the switch or disconnect near the tub and then #6 wire the rest of the way. I could get into more detail on this but based on the spas load, this is good.
3: I recommend that you install a wet location rated wire (NMWU) in conduit. You will not need the neutral but run it anyways. If you change spas down the road, the other brand might require the neutral.
4: If you are not sure about how to install it safely, get somebody who does or pull a permit so that you work can be inspected.
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Backpains, did you buy the Gfci sub panel or the gfci that goes right into your main? My Home Depot carried the 50 amp Gfi sub. not the 60amp. I was wondering if other Depot's carried 60a subs. It was $79. for the 50a.
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I bought the 60 amp box myelf from Lowes for $79. I went with the 60 amps just because I wanted to be able to have it all. ::)
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Vlady, was that the sub panel box?
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Yes, 60 amp GFCI sub panel box. The box actually stated that it was for outdoor spa use. Just enter your zip code and this link will show you.
Spa Box (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=105741-76863-UG412RMW260P&lpage=none)
If that doesn't work, search on 60 amp, then you should see a list that should include "safety switches and disconnects", enter zip code and you should see it listed there. Or search on Item #105741.
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Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. I couldn't find it on their website. I priced the #6-3 with ground and it's around $1.32 per foot and I need about 75 ft to get ready for "Spatopia" as another poster on this board calls it.
My short list is down to L.A. Spas Esteem, Master Spa LS800, Marquis Epic, and SD Cameo. i haven't wet tested yet, that will be next.
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Thanks Everyone.....Its all hooked up (60Amps of course)and ready to go, now all I need is the tub. It comes tuesday and I can't wait. I purchased the 60 Amp sub panel from Lowes ($79). Works great.