Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: NE-Phil on August 03, 2005, 11:10:43 pm
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INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW!
Yes, I know, I've been asking questions about this a lot in the past week but I want to make sure I know what the choices are.
Below is a (partial) list of reasons why some of you use bromine while others use dichlor.
Many of you are using dichlor because it's
1. Cheaper
2. Has no smell (since chlorine breaks down easily)
3. PH stays in balance better
4. Does not leave a residual in the water
Drawbacks
1. Put a teaspoon (more or less) in at the end of your soak.
2. Requires more water maintenance
Others are using bromine because its
1. Part of an inline system so we don't have to think about it
2. Might be a slightly better sanitizer
3. Requires less water maintenance
Drawbacks appear to be
1. More expensive than dichlor
2. Chemical smell
3. Tends to have more problems with PH
4. Is always in the water so bathers are in contact with it
I have an inline frog system and so my dealer set me up with bromine but I'm not convinced its the best way for me. Especially if moving to dichlor means getting rid of the chemical smell and its cheaper than bromine.
Do I have that right? I would appreciate feedback from both camps.
Phil
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I can't speak for all but regarding your point about more/less maintenance we have seen our maintenance get much easier and lot less effort with dichlor. I don't know if maybe I was not doing things the right way with bromine but with dichlor it seems that I almost never have to adjust ph/alk and adding a tsp or two after every soak is not as big a deal as I thought it would be.
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I've not used bromine, but I can say that using dichlor involves very minimal water maintenance. I spend maybe 15min total a week doing stuff to the water. Adding a tsp after soaking is not any trouble, we bring it outside when we go.
I agree w/Bulmer about the water stability, we've never had trouble with ups and downs. Regular use of dichlor will drag your pH down a bit, so we check that weekly and usually add 1TBL pH UP. Other than a wkly shock, thats all we do.
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Is it not true that with dichlor, you need to run the spa with the cover up for a period of time after you add it?
Thought I read that if you don't, the underside of you cover can get attacked, shortening the covers life.
I use chlorine free bromine, and just have to keep an eye on the ph and alk, as it tends to drift lower.
I fill a floater twice a month, add shock and adjust ph maybe once a week. True, you do contact bromine, but that doesn't bother me, nor does the smell.
Brewman
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I run my pump 20 mins or so after adding the teaspoon of bromine each night so i hope the cover isn't getting attacked.
I have a garden box with the bromine and other chemicals next to the spa and it's not a big deal to scoop a teaspoon in each night.
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From what I've heard, running the spa like you do is supposed to keep the chlorine from attacking the cover, or at least reduce the effect.
The bromine I use doesn't have chlorine in it, and it dispenses with a floater. One thing I have noticed since switching to bromine (recovering Baqua sufferrer) is the tendency for certain parts in the spa, and the floater to get stained a light tan color. This comes off fairly easily with a scrubby pad and some cleaner.
Must be a side effect of bromine contact?
Brewman
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NE Phil Why not on your next water change switch to Dichlor and see for yourself? I'd be very interested in learning if it worked out for you and what your experinces where.
It would be a good case study.
Maybe, your dealer might even give you a sample Dichlor start up kit so you don't have to invest a lot of $$?
Question: if someone is going to switch over from one system to another, is there anything else that needs to be done other than a water change and a filter clean?
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Why not experiment. Start with a straightforward dichlor method for 4 weeks then switch to a bromine method for 4 weeks. Then YOU will see/experience the difference and decide which is best for you.
BTW, you can switch from chlorine to bromine in an instant without changing the water but if you have bromine you cannot switch over to chlorine without first draining.
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Is it not true that with dichlor, you need to run the spa with the cover up for a period of time after you add it?
Thought I read that if you don't, the underside of you cover can get attacked, shortening the covers life.
I use dichlor and I believe it's only when shocking with dichlor you don't want to close the cover right away and I believe 20 minutes is OK when shocking. Also, any unused ozone that off gasses will eat away the cover too, apparently at higher rate than the chlorine, from what I've read and been told.
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I recommend leaving the cover open with the jets on for at least five minutes any time you add Dichlor or oxidizer. It lets the chlorine gas cloud escape, and adds years to the life of your cover.
In fact, that is the very reason I like Dichlor over Bromine - the bromine tabs which most people use contain chlorine. That chlorine never gets to escape since it is in a floating feeder or a built-in feeder at all times. As a result, people who use bromine tabs in a feeder tend to pay me twice: once when they buy the more-expensive bromine, and again when they buy a new cover.
I recommend "Brilliance" to my customers who use bromine. It is chlorine-free. You have to shock once a week, or after a party, but you can leave the lid open as above for longer cover life, and you don't the heavy bromine smell either.
Leisure Time also offers "Reserve" which is a Chlorine-free bromine system using a liquid bromine.
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Chas, If you sell Brilliance, I have to beleive the manufacturer has provided you with some sort of safety information that would disclose its chemical composition. In Ontario, this is referred to as a M.S.D.S (Material Safety Data Sheet).
If you have this information, would be so kind as to share it with us? I would love to understand what chemicals make this product. I beleive you when you say it contains no chlorine. I find i hard to beleive it is pure unadulterated bromine.
Take chlorine for example, the only way it comes in a pure form is as a gas in a tank.
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How is it that using dichlor is cheaper?
I was using bromine for almost a year and was spending under $3 a month for bromine. I've recently switched to dichlor for a trial and it seems like I am going through the dichlor fast... a teaspoon or 2 a day is adding up quickly.
I understand that pound for pound bromine may cost more but it appears as though I am using a lot more dichlor ???
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I use Brilliance, and maybe that's why I'm not so bothered by the smell. It really is pretty subtle. Plus as Chas said, it's just adding shock once a week, and keeping pH balanced.
Per the company that make it is 100% chlorine free. But I don't know what all the ingredients are. They are probably listed on the label, which I'll read tomorrow when I do my water checking.
I'm sure that it's more expensive than other forms of bromine, but I was using Baqua before.
That was expensive compared to Brilliance. I don't really keep track too much, but I'm thinking I spend less than $100 per year on Brillinance Sanitizer, shock, and metal control.
Brewman
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Ok..I don't use Bromine for actually only one of your reasons.. and that's the fact it only takes minimal care as far as that goes the main reason I won't switch is because I feel if it's not broke don't fix it..it;s working for me so I'm not going to change just because someone says Dichlor is a better product or cheaper or whatever
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Key differences are that bromine is more stable in hot water, dichlor breaks down after just a few hours. Bromine is broken down in direct sunlight, whereas dichlor is stable in sunlight. Bromine is acidic, although products that are a mix of some bromine with mostly dichlor are pH neutral. Dichlor is mostly pH neutral. Chlorine is far and away more effective as a sanitizer than is bromine although both are halogens (maybe 10x more powerful than bromine).
If you use the Vermonter's strategy (rhtubs.com) you will soak in chlorine free water as he advocates adding dichlor after your soak. Several hours later the dichlor is gone but so are the bugs. The Vermonter's approach makes dichlor much nicer for those of us with sensitive skin.
Regards,
Bill
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If you use the Vermonter's strategy (rhtubs.com) you will soak in chlorine free water as he advocates adding dichlor after your soak. Several hours later the dichlor is gone but so are the bugs. The Vermonter's approach makes dichlor much nicer for those of us with sensitive skin.
AMEN!! I've been soaking that way and passing that on to customers for the past 6 years.
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do you use a nature 2 stick with your dichlor? didn't anybody mention that?
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do you use a nature 2 stick with your dichlor? didn't anybody mention that?
Vermonter has stated on Doc's site he does use N2 and ozone in his tub. Whether or not anyone needs it is another story.
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are you telling me nature 2 isn't good to use with dichlor?
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N2 is OK with dichlor, don't use it with bromine. If you want to try bromine get the frog system.
Basically the only sanitizers proven effective on hot tub 'bugs' are chlorine, bromine and whatever Baqua is made out of. You don't need N2 or ozone or enzymes or anything else to help your sanitizer do it's job. You just need the correct amount of sanitizer.
They MAY help but it's basically scientifically unproven that they do anything. A lot of people swear by them on the fact that their water is nice and clean and is easier to take care of. And those people may be right.
I run my pool with just chlorine and proper water chemistry and am trying my hand with my spa close to that also. I do run my ozonator 8 hours a day and do add enzymes (hot water strips the body of everything) to break up the body oils and stop foaming. I do add a dichlor with MPS enhanced shock so that I can use the tub the next day, but even then I could just add 3 tablespoons of dichlor and let it do it's job!
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Both Vermonter and Northman use Nature2 sticks. Vinny is correct that there is no hard data that N2 does a whole lot, but there is strong evidence that minerals, especially silver, makes chlorine a more effective sanitiser. In my experience I've found my water "stays" longer with N2. If you are a very consistant user, you are adding chlorine on a very regular basis and it probably has little effect. I like the idea that when the chlorine has done its job and my free chlorine level is near zero, I have my N2 or Frog and ozone doing their thing.
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Ok just a quick qestion for this newbie on this subject.
at what levels "parts per million" ppm is bromine to be at? vs. Dichlor ppm to be at? readding the information I have on my spa using the Spa frog minerals Silver and Limestone with an ozonator I should have 1-2 ppm of bromine? ok at that looks like a little bit to me what I would like to know is what ppm is dichlor to be maintained at?
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Vinny,
Your claim that ozone is not scientifically proven to be an effective sanitizer (tell me that I misunderstood you) is not correct at all. Ozone in fact is the most effective of all sanitizers, which is quite definitely a proven fact. I think the confusion might be that although ozone is a proven sanitizer, the use of ozonators has not been substantially proven to be effective. The problem is not with ozone, but with the fact that the ozonators on the market only can generate a very small quantity of ozone and it is very difficult to get it dissolved in the water.
An ozonator is a nice thing to have, but it may or may not kill a lot of bacteria in a spa. It certainly must help, but it is not enough by itself. This information comes from the manufacturers of ozonators.
For the person who asked how much dichlor to use, the answer is 1-3 ppm, which should be measured approximately 10 to 20 minutes after being added to the spa with the jets on high to thoroughly mix it. Approximately 3 to 4 hours later, the chlorine reading should be half or less as much. The reason for this is that chlorine does not survive for long in hot water, but 3 or 4 hours is more than enough time to sanitize a typical spa. Then once a week you should shock your spa with 5 to 7 times the normal dose rate of dichlor. This will burn off combined chlorine which is the stuff that gives off the chlorine smell and does no useful work as a sanitizer.
To round this out, for bromine the level is typically 1-2 ppm but it must be at that level constantly because it is much less effective and it needs more time to kill bacteria. Combined bromine is still effective as a sanitizer, but you should still shock especially if your "bromine" is three quarters chlorine anyway. You can use dichlor to shock bromine, but be careful to keep dry dichlor and dry bromine separate as they are dangerous when combined in the dry state. Alternatively you could use MPS to shock and that is true for both dichlor and bromine.
Regards,
Bill
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Thanks Bill for your helpfull In formation. :)