Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: drober30 on July 16, 2005, 11:14:44 pm
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My HS has a clean button that runs the jets for ten minutes. After I get out of the tub I add Dichlor I press the clean button and let the chem cycle and the water filter for the pre-programmed ten minutes.
The only downside I see is $$$ in electricity.
Do you your clean button or have your tub programmed to run after you exit?
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Maybe I don't fully comprehend this "feature", but it seems to me that it's not a required cycle.
After using the spa, the addition of a small of dichlor is required. Turn the jets on high and add it. Circulate for a minute or two and you're done. Now I see this can prevent the need for standing at the tub for those 2 minutes, but I don't believe a 10 minute cycle has any benefit whatsoever. ??? That being said, I don't believe the electrical consumption is much to be concerned either...What did you pay for you tub? That 10 minutes would equate to pennies and not worth the concern IMO when considering your total financial commitment.
As most of us know, all spas filter better on low speed (assuming that they have a proper skimmer for the surface of the water) and provide far better skimming action. Most spas have a bypass on high speed and little of the water is properly being filtered on this speed and more important, none of the residual waste left on the surface of the water (ie. perspiration, oils, lotions, etc.) is being filtered at all. What you're doing is allowing the dichlor to dissolve during this time and the word "cleaning" might be misrepresented here a bit.
Proper filtration should be happening on your filtration cycles and additional filtration when exiting should be redundant on a properly designed filtration system.
When the need for added filtration is required, adjusting those cycles or hitting the 2 speed pump button should allow that pump to run for 2 hours on a low, circulation speed which again, provides the proper filtration spa owners require.
I'm sure you'll get alternate opinions on this.
Steve
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Steve, You had me at "Hello".
;)
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The only downside I see is $$$ in electricity.
Do you your clean button or have your tub programmed to run after you exit?
The timer works great. Why would you want to have your spa run a filter cycle when not needed. By simply punching the button, you get massive filtration, but only when you need it. You save energy that way.
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Since HS tubs are no-bypass, that ten minute cycle "evens out" filtration across all filters. By running it after a heavy bather load, you're keeping the single filter connected to the circ pump from getting the brunt of the filtrate. It's an on-demand feature that provides quick and intense filtration.
Keep in mind that many tubs don't have no-bypass filtration. So the instructions on some chems are going to recommend filtration times that are far in excess of what's necessary on tubs that are no-bypass. The idea being to move all the water through the filters at least once to remove the organics oxidized by the sanitizer.
When I add chems, I usually just run the pump on high manually (for a minute or two) and move the diverter valve through all settings to make sure everything is well mixed.
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Your looking at about 1 cent per minute to run the two pumps on high. BTW, what does the HS filter down to (micron) compared to other filters? Just curious
Steve
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I run the clean cycle every time I put dichlor in, especially after I get out. I haven't noticed a huge difference in my energy consumption, but HotSprings is one of the most energy efficient tubs on the market! Plus, it gives me a chance to come inside, and dry off a bit, then when the 10 minutes are up, I can just run out, put the cover back on, and I'm done! But that is just mej!
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I run the clean cycle every time I put dichlor in, especially after I get out. I haven't noticed a huge difference in my energy consumption, but HotSprings is one of the most energy efficient tubs on the market! Plus, it gives me a chance to come inside, and dry off a bit, then when the 10 minutes are up, I can just run out, put the cover back on, and I'm done! But that is just mej!
Lori this is what I do too except I put the cover on right away if I'm only adding the 2 Tsp of dichlor.
If I'm shocking then I leave the cover off for 20 minutes.
I just didn’t know if I should be hitting my clean button every time I exit the tub?
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This is a mathmatical exercise. I will take a shot at it and this would be my interpretation. HS experts please correct any misinterpretations or misunderstanding created. ;)
Clean and clear water is the result of proper filtration and sanitation which is accomplished by gallons per minute.
HS has a circulation pump that is rated, let me assume, 6 to7 gpm, which would equate to 8,640 to 10,080 gallons per day and may not be adequate to filter the water clean with the circ pump only which has a single dedicated filter.
This turnover rate is approximately 22 times.
The primary pump which requires 2 suction fittings has a dedicated filter on each fitting independent of the circ pump filter (thus 100% filtration). This pump may have a rate of 180 gpm resulting in an additional turnover of 1,800 gallons during the 10 minute "clean up cycle". Thus an additional 1,800 gallons is being filtered plus the 10,080
This would represent 11,880 gallons being filtered, and assuming the capacity of the tub is 450 gallons that would be a turnover rate of 26 times, which should be cosidered adequate to filter out oxidized contaminants.
Assuming the primary pump is pulling 11 amps x 240 volts resulting in 2640 watts of consumption per hour, or .440 kilowatts in 10 minutes x .09 cents = approximately 4 cents to run the clean up cycle.
The circ pump at 240 x 2.5 amps = .600 kW x .09 = 5.4 cents per hour or about a $1.30 a day
Ad to this the 20 to 30 minutes of pump operataion and any heat loss or replacement of heat loss and you should be able to roughly estimate your cost of electric.
A meter would be much easier and more accurate. But, when it comes to filtration, it is gallons per minute that clean the water. ;)
so, drober30, to put your mind at ease forget the $$$ and consider it less than a nickle for each "clean up cycle"
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My HS has a clean button that runs the jets for ten minutes. After I get out of the tub I add Dichlor I press the clean button and let the chem cycle and the water filter for the pre-programmed ten minutes.
The only downside I see is $$$ in electricity.
Do you your clean button or have your tub programmed to run after you exit?
I use MPS before or after entering the tub rather that DiChlor after, so I simply use the clean button to cycle the pumps ( only pimp 1 runs with clean on my Envoy) after adding Ph adjusters etc. I'll also often give it a last 10 minutes after I put the cover back after shocking. I leave it off for about 30 minutes first.
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Ok..I don't have the clean up cycle on my Coleman...so here's my take on this senerio..as you all know I use my hot tub more than most people on this forum (5-7 times per day) so my experience with the filtration cycles are for heavy bather loads. First thing in the am...(sometimes this time is 5:30am) we test our water if all levels are fine we don't do a thing. I'm in the tub 4-5 more times during the day in hot temp days I leave the cover half off to drop the temp a bit. at around 9pm we do our last soak for the evening (btw everytime I get out I run the filtration for about 5 min) I add 1 tsp of Bromine after our evening soak to ensurew levels will be fine in the am.
Now...my dealer was down yesterday (sunday) and reset my filtration cycles from 4 hours 2x a day to 5 hours 2 x a day (otherwise I filter from 2-6pm and from 10pm to 2 am) anyway I hope this sort of helps LOL
BP
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I have a Tiger River Caspain, also made by HS. The clean cylce simply turns on both pumps on high for 10 minutes.
J-McD's assumptions seem correct to me, as well as kelly's. The cost of running the pumps on high for 10 minutes seems minimal to me.
I would be hesitiant to add the dichlor or MPS prior or while usiing the tub as Tony wrote. Wouldn't this possibley cause the water to be excessivley harsh on the skin? Isn't the point to add the chlorine and or oxidizers AFTER use to really bring the levels of the water up, give it a good cycling through, and then after have the levels settle back down?
?
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The circ pump at 240 x 2.5 amps = .600 kW x .09 = 5.4 cents per hour or about a $1.30 a day
240 times 2.5 amps is 600 watts, but those numbers don't apply. On a HotSpring or Tiger River Spa the circ pump is 85 watts, total. It runs on 110 volts, but is just 85 watts.
That means to run it 24 hours is only about two kilowatthours, or about eighteen cents.
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Ok..I don't have the clean up cycle on my Coleman...so here's my take on this senerio..as you all know I use my hot tub more than most people on this forum (5-7 times per day) so my experience with the filtration cycles are for heavy bather loads. First thing in the am...(sometimes this time is 5:30am) we test our water if all levels are fine we don't do a thing. I'm in the tub 4-5 more times during the day in hot temp days I leave the cover half off to drop the temp a bit. at around 9pm we do our last soak for the evening (btw everytime I get out I run the filtration for about 5 min) I add 1 tsp of Bromine after our evening soak to ensurew levels will be fine in the am.
Now...my dealer was down yesterday (sunday) and reset my filtration cycles from 4 hours 2x a day to 5 hours 2 x a day (otherwise I filter from 2-6pm and from 10pm to 2 am) anyway I hope this sort of helps LOL
BP
Backpains you do have a cleanup cycle on your Coleman.
It's automatic and doesn't need to be set. Just turn jet one on low and it will go into a four hour clean up cycle. ;)
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Backpains you do have a cleanup cycle on your Coleman.
It's automatic and doesn't need to be set. Just turn jet one on low and it will go into a four hour clean up cycle. ;)
I know that is what I was talking about spahappy.....it's just my filtering times is all it is..goes from 2-6 and 10pm to 2am
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240 times 2.5 amps is 600 watts, but those numbers don't apply. On a HotSpring or Tiger River Spa the circ pump is 85 watts, total. It runs on 110 volts, but is just 85 watts.
That means to run it 24 hours is only about two kilowatthours, or about eighteen cents.
Thank you Chas, I know you know, but if that is correct the circ pump would be pulling .7 amp, and it could never move 6 to 7 gpm. How many gpm would the circ pump do? ??? and are both hi performance pumps running during the 10 minutes, doubling the nickel to a dime? ??? which is little to no signifigance.
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If the HS is still using the Laing pump like the Sundance 780s and 850s, then yes, it is moving around 6-9 gpm at 85 watts. The 240v model uses around 98 watts.
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Now what I really want is to jump out of the tub, hit the clean button, run in the house and watch through the window as the automatic sanitzer injector pumps dichlor into the running tub, runs it for 10 minutes, turns out the tub lights, and the motorized cover lifter cycles and closes the cover. :o
COME ON DEALERS! Put those engineers back at the mother ship to work!
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JJ that would be so totally cool..but lets throw in a plazma tv that turns on and shuts off by itself...throw in the rest of the chems being monitored and distributed when needed....totally empties and refills by itself when it's time...and a mini bar that knows exactly when your thirsty. Now THAT"S A HOT TUB!!!!!!!!!
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This is a mathmatical exercise. I will take a shot at it and this would be my interpretation. HS experts please correct any misinterpretations or misunderstanding created. ;)
Clean and clear water is the result of proper filtration and sanitation which is accomplished by gallons per minute.
HS has a circulation pump that is rated, let me assume, 6 to7 gpm, which would equate to 8,640 to 10,080 gallons per day and may not be adequate to filter the water clean with the circ pump only which has a single dedicated filter.
This turnover rate is approximately 22 times.
The primary pump which requires 2 suction fittings has a dedicated filter on each fitting independent of the circ pump filter (thus 100% filtration). This pump may have a rate of 180 gpm resulting in an additional turnover of 1,800 gallons during the 10 minute "clean up cycle". Thus an additional 1,800 gallons is being filtered plus the 10,080
This would represent 11,880 gallons being filtered, and assuming the capacity of the tub is 450 gallons that would be a turnover rate of 26 times, which should be cosidered adequate to filter out oxidized contaminants.
Assuming the primary pump is pulling 11 amps x 240 volts resulting in 2640 watts of consumption per hour, or .440 kilowatts in 10 minutes x .09 cents = approximately 4 cents to run the clean up cycle.
The circ pump at 240 x 2.5 amps = .600 kW x .09 = 5.4 cents per hour or about a $1.30 a day
Ad to this the 20 to 30 minutes of pump operataion and any heat loss or replacement of heat loss and you should be able to roughly estimate your cost of electric.
A meter would be much easier and more accurate. But, when it comes to filtration, it is gallons per minute that clean the water. ;)
so, drober30, to put your mind at ease forget the $$$ and consider it less than a nickle for each "clean up cycle"
Wow, I was never good at math word problems. Is this the one where the wind is blowing from the North and I have to figure out how many apples everyone has left?
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Thank you Chas, I know you know, but if that is correct the circ pump would be pulling .7 amp, and it could never move 6 to 7 gpm. How many gpm would the circ pump do? ??? and are both hi performance pumps running during the 10 minutes, doubling the nickel to a dime? ??? which is little to no signifigance.
Yes, it's just under .8 amps (.775 x 110 = 85 ) and it does move around 6 gpm. It is a spherical rotor pump - no shaft seal to rob power and a very close coupling of the magnetic field to the rotor for maximum efficiency.
on the 'clean' cycle, only one jet pump runs. On spas with one two-speed pump and one single-speed pump they run the single speed: it is marginally more efficient.
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So then, there we have it. 2 kW a day costing 18 cents a day to run, turning over 8,640 gallons every 24 hours, plus the clean up cycle that we discover to be approximately 5 cents per clean up cycle, so let's assume we use 2 clean up cycles, your total cost would be 28 cents a day, or $8.40 a month, turning over 10,440 gallons per day and turning over the content of the tub 24 to 26 times each day.
So drober, push that clean up cycle with great delight and sleep at night realizing it is on pennies a day. ;D
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Now what I really want is to jump out of the tub, hit the clean button, run in the house and watch through the window as the automatic sanitzer injector pumps dichlor into the running tub, runs it for 10 minutes, turns out the tub lights, and the motorized cover lifter cycles and closes the cover. :o
COME ON DEALERS! Put those engineers back at the mother ship to work!
I don' think that's too unreasonable. Pools have automatic clhorinators, a tub could have one too, and on the clean cycle open the valve a bit more to allow a greater amount of chlorine to mix with the water.
Auto coverlifter? Sure. just like a garage door opener or a covertable car.
;D
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So then, there we have it. 2 kW a day costing 18 cents a day to run, turning over 8,640 gallons every 24 hours, plus the clean up cycle that we discover to be approximately 5 cents per clean up cycle, so let's assume we use 2 clean up cycles, your total cost would be 28 cents a day, or $8.40 a month, turning over 10,440 gallons per day and turning over the content of the tub 24 to 26 times each day.
Sure....but if a tree falls in the forest, is it still my fault?
;D
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So then, there we have it. 2 kW a day costing 18 cents a day to run, turning over 8,640 gallons every 24 hours, plus the clean up cycle that we discover to be approximately 5 cents per clean up cycle, so let's assume we use 2 clean up cycles, your total cost would be 28 cents a day, or $8.40 a month, turning over 10,440 gallons per day and turning over the content of the tub 24 to 26 times each day.
So drober, push that clean up cycle with great delight and sleep at night realizing it is on pennies a day. ;D
great idea....
hey who left all these lights on?! the back door is open to.... what are you trying to do air condition the great outdoors?!
dont make me turn this car around.......
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You need to press your clean up cycle after each use because Hot Springs Spas do not skim body oils etc. AT ALL unless you do so. If you use your HS and do not press the 10 minute button, no water gets skimmed. The circulation pump pulls water throught the lower screens beneath the weir door and cannot pull the weir door down.
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Even though circs are still problematic and pull small amounts of water through filters, they are still more efficient than low speed pumps...slightly anyway.
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You need to press your clean up cycle after each use because Hot Springs Spas do not skim body oils etc. AT ALL unless you do so. If you use your HS and do not press the 10 minute button, no water gets skimmed. The circulation pump pulls water throught the lower screens beneath the weir door and cannot pull the weir door down.
That is precisely what that function is for. Why have 1-3 hours of filtration cycles??? To filter water that is already clean??? Maybe the 5 Tri-X filters, 325 sq ft of filtration takes care of in 10 min what 1 filter 25-100 sq ft of filtration takes care of in 1-3 hours. :o
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I don' think that's too unreasonable. Pools have automatic clhorinators, a tub could have one too, and on the clean cycle open the valve a bit more to allow a greater amount of chlorine to mix with the water.
Auto coverlifter? Sure. just like a garage door opener or a covertable car.
;D
Mine is voice activated:
"Honey, go put some chlorine into the spa and leave the cover open for me, willya?"
Works like a charm.
;)
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Mine is voice activated:
"Honey, go put some chlorine into the spa and leave the cover open for me, willya?"
Works like a charm.
;)
Chas where do I find a automated one? It's uaually me that is leaving the cover open...and throwing bromine in the spa...ohh btw....just so you all know, my little problem with the cloudiness of the tub while the jets were on high and the air valves were open...it's normal it's "oxygen bubbles" I'm getting that are making the water cloudy (not really what I would call cloudy more like ummmmmm ooohhh yeah what someone told me on here once before "alka selzer water")
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Problem with circ pump is it only filter the middle third of the spa water over and over again. The oils reside on top and dirt on the bottom and the circ cleans the clean.
I hope the tri x works better than the no-fault 5000/6000 design (oh by the way, they should give back their Silver Award for designing a fire starter). Another marketing gadget.
Fact: HS filters 14,500 gallons 100%. Which only 3,200 is skimmed and you have to remember to press button to filter 3,200. That's if 10 minute uses both pumps, which I would guess they do. 11,500 or so is the middle third which is never really dirty anyway.
Vs. a spa that filters 26,000 gallons 100% and 70% is skimmed & bottom is filtered as well. amp usage = 990 amp minutes vs. HS 1368 amp minutes + 10 minute cycle of 200 amp minutes. HS is only slightly more efficient because of 5 # foam fill/60# base. Which is for support and is nightmare to get to leak.
Fact: less power to draw more water through filter without bypass is better. :o
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Problem with circ pump is it only filter the middle third of the spa water over and over again. The oils reside on top and dirt on the bottom and the circ cleans the clean.
I have heard this from folks who sell spas without a circ pump, but I still can't figure out why. The water returns to the spa from the floor fitting, and there are connections to a small jet in the filter area, Moto Massage area and the various jet systems. Water moves in every part of the tub - easy to check: the temp is the same all over.
I sure don't hear any complaints from the folks who OWN these tubs - they work quite well. I really don't think they would have become the world's best-selling tub if there was a layer of cold, dirty water on the bottom and cold, oily water on top.
I hope the tri x works better than the no-fault 5000/6000 design (oh by the way, they should give back their Silver Award for designing a fire starter). Another marketing gadget.
The Tri-X is off to a good start. I enjoy being able to just put them into the dishwasher. They also move much more water than a conventional filter, and they last much longer.
As to the heater: HotSpring did not design the heater involved in the recall. They did not have to start a voluntary recall, nor did they have to go to the consumer product safety commission to start a remediation protocol, but they did. And then they helped TrueHeat to stay in existance. There are a lot of other brands of tubs out there with TrueHeat heaters in them - most of them would have dissapeared from the scene leaving the consumer holding the bag. HotSpring did an upright and honorable job of handling the whole thing.
BTW - HotSpring switched to two other vendors for heaters, and the CPSC closed the case OVER two years ago - other than pot-stirring, what was your point in bringing it up? Fact: HS filters 14,500 gallons 100%.
What do you base this 'fact' on? HS has a little pump running around the clock through a filter. It moves around 6 - 7 gpm, for a total of about 8500 to 9000 gallons per day. Which only 3,200 is skimmed and you have to remember to press button to filter 3,200.
If you mean that the tub only skims when the jet pumps are on, that's the basic idea. Once the spa is skimmed and the lid is closed, there is no real reason to waste electricity running a large pump filtering/skimming. That's if 10 minute uses both pumps, which I would guess they do.
I think you are doing more guessing that you realize: no, HS and TR spas use one pump for filtration on models with two jet pumps. 11,500 or so is the middle third which is never really dirty anyway.
Have you lived with a spa? I don't know how you get the idea that there are layers when the water is in constant motion. Whether we are talking about the circ pump's constant motion or the jet pump's massive motion, the water is mixed and flitered. And since the HS tubs do not move any water which doesn't go through a filter, it can do in ten minutes what other tubs take an hour or more to do.
HS is only slightly more efficient because of 5 # foam fill/60# base. Which is for support and is nightmare to get to leak.
HotSpring starts with a 30# spray on the back of the shell - applied by computer-controlled spray arms. Then after the tub is plumbed and pressure-tested, it gets a spray of 10# foam to hold the plumbing in place. Then the cavities are filled with a combination of 1 and 2 pound density foam. Finally the bottom is capped with 60# density foam, with is closed-cell and just about as hard as fiberglass. It is an engineered system which adds strength and holds in the heat. And you are right: it is very tough to get it to leak - the plumbing is help firmly in place so there are far fewer issues with leaks. Fact: less power to draw more water through filter without bypass is better. :o
I agree.
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Just buy a Sundance 880 Series and all your problems are solved! ;) The 880's circ pump moves 35 gpm which is enough to drop the weir door and constantly skim the water. Not to mention filtering over 50,000 gallons a day through (IMHO) a better filter! Peace out.
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So then, there we have it. 2 kW a day costing 18 cents a day to run, turning over 8,640 gallons every 24 hours, plus the clean up cycle that we discover to be approximately 5 cents per clean up cycle, so let's assume we use 2 clean up cycles, your total cost would be 28 cents a day, or $8.40 a month, turning over 10,440 gallons per day and turning over the content of the tub 24 to 26 times each day.
So drober, push that clean up cycle with great delight and sleep at night realizing it is on pennies a day. ;D
The jury is back and the verdict is.... I will use the clean button everytime I exit the tub.
Funny, you never know what question will create allot of discussion.
I love hot tubs and you all are great! ;D
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You know guys you can all sit around and discuss the filtration of the HS or TR spas all day and night, it still remains to be a top seller along with Sundance Artic (which btw, my dealer told me NOT to look at because their price has skyrocketed) Tiger River, Caldera, marquis, Nordic, Master,Jacuzzi, Beachcomber, Coleman (yes I throw that one in there for a reason) and several others. But...I truly believe when I looked at all the spas that I did (Sundance..HotSprings..Caldera..Artesian..Coleman...Bullfrog) That each tub cerculated all the water at the same rate, correct me if I'm wrong here, but to say that one spa just because they use a 10 minute clean up is the wrong way to go and is a feature that is useless is kinda dumb (sorry for the insult). After I get out of my hot tub each time I hit the filtration cycle which is Ime turning on Jet 1, for at least a minimum of 30 min, now...I wondered if All the water was being filtered...to my amazement it is TWO of the jets on the far end of the tub are pushing the water from the far end of the tub to the filter along with all the jets from the lounger and the far left seat and the middle seat beside the seat with the comfort collar Jets, they are all on!
Now....would you guys quit bickering about who's filtration is best and start helping some of these people that are looking for answers on which tub is best as a comparision
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Now....would you guys quit bickering about who's filtration is best and start helping some of these people that are looking for answers on which tub is best as a comparision
Golly Gee backpains, I thought we were trying our best to answer Drober's issue of concern. He was thinking $$$ when it is really only cents. Besides all of us don’t know it all, so we’re working on the truth here and we learn something new everyday. ;);D
My HS has a clean button that runs the jets for ten minutes. After I get out of the tub I add Dichlor I press the clean button and let the chem cycle and the water filter for the pre-programmed ten minutes.
The only downside I see is $$$ in electricity.
Do you your clean button or have your tub programmed to run after you exit?
The jury is back and the verdict is.... I will use the clean button everytime I exit the tub.
Funny, you never know what question will create allot of discussion.
I love hot tubs and you all are great! ;D
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JD...sorry I'm just in one of those moods again...not to worry I've taken my meds and I'm calm now. Ok now I have a question....doesn't every tub filter the water about the same?
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No, there are exceptions.
Terminator
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Backpains,
The reason I mentioned the SD 880 Series is because all tubs don't circulate the water at the same rate. Industry standard is about 5-7 gpm, the 880 Series circulates 35 gpm. As stated in my previous post, that is significant because it is always skimming and you dont need a "clean" cycle. Granted, I sell them. I have sold HS, Dynasty, Nordic, Tiger River, and Coast and the filtration on the 880 Series IMHO is the best right now. Are the other systems good. Sure. Will someone surpass Sundance? Probably. We'll tackle that when it happens.
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Backpains,
The reason I mentioned the SD 880 Series is because all tubs DON'T circulate the water at the same rate. Industry standard is about 5-7 gpm, the 880 Series circulates 35 gpm. As stated in my previous post, that is significant because it is always skimming and you dont need a "clean" cycle. Granted, I sell them. I have sold HS, Dynasty, Nordic, Tiger River, and Coast and the filtration on the 880 Series IMHO is the best right now. Are the other systems good. Sure. Will someone surpass Sundance? Probably. We'll tackle that when it happens.