Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: spanovice on June 15, 2005, 01:17:33 pm
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I realize that warrantees may vary greatly, and the better the warrantee, the better the spa. I guess I'm still wondering what things to watch for in the "fine print" so that I really get the best spa and warrantee.
Any suggestions and personal experiences?
Thanks!
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My suggestion is to read the warranty prior to the purchase and pay close attention to the exclusions.
Steve
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Pick a warranty with no exclusions
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My suggestion is to ACQUIRE A COPY of the written warranty along with the brochure and other sales material being provided and read the exclusions, limitations and prorations of the warranty. What they give you in numbers, they always take a way with words. If it is not available, you must begin to ask yourself, why not? There is one in every spa on the floor and they can simply make a copy.
For example, no warranty consideration for damage caused by operation of the spa at water temperatures outside the range of 34° F - 104° F. Or, the use of "Tri-Chlor" voids your warranty.
These is specific and ice begins to form at 32° F. If a warranty failure causes the GFI breaker to trip, subsequent damage is not covered. Maybe not important in Florida but it is in the snowbelt.
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One thing to add is that warranties are great when they are honored. If you buy from a major reputable spa manufacturer (i.e. Sundance, Hot Springs, Caldera, Marquis, D1, etc.) you not only get a thorough warranty but you get one from a company that is known to back their product.
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Good luck finding a warranty without exclusions.
Brewman
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"I realize that warrantees may vary greatly, and the better the warrantee, the better the........."
Hundi 100k miles
BMW 50k miles
which would you rather drive? Which do you think is a better car?
It's all in the marketing.
Don't forget, you pay for the warranty as a non-itemized, included part of the spa.
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Very true Doc!
Which brings me to ask, Is there any non-major dealers that look after their customers and provide great warranty service?
Of course there is... ::)
Steve
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I know one! Lol
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I know one! Lol
I know you were going to say Hydropool... ;D
Let's take this one step further...
Who and what determines a MAJOR BRAND? Is it number of units sold annually?
Steve
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Very true Doc!
Which brings me to ask, Is there any non-major dealers that look after their customers and provide great warranty service?
Of course there is... ::)
Steve
Yes! My dealer stopped selling tubs altogether. They moved to a smaller building and now sell ponds :P ! They have taken excellent care of me, when I have needed it!!
And regarding your other question about quality major brand, I would say that it wouldn't have to be based on number of units sold, annually! Everyone likes to use auto imagery, so I may as well, too. Look at the "major brands" who have had "major" recalls in the past few years. GM, Ford, even Honda. I would consider them all "major brands of autos, and they all sell a whole lot of units annually. I would say a "major brand" would be a "brand" that takes care of the dealers, who in turn, take care of their customers with that "brand". If there was a defect in a car I bought, I would expect GM to take care of it! I expect the same from my hot tub maker, no matter the brand!
Does that make any sense? But, thanks, it made me think a bit!!!
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2 and they are all hand delivered by me and my wife,oh nevermind that is someone else!
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When I was buying my Cal SPa I was shown a 5 year warrantee that it turns out was only offered on custom ordered spas. If one was to choose one of the pre-specified factory option packages (the pricing GREATLY encouraged this) the warrantee became only 1 year.
And as they say it is not what they say they will cover but what they actually do cover - they have a deal where they (Cal Spa) requires #6 AWG wire for the ground wire. Nobody makes cable that way (they use 3 #6AWG with a #*AWG ground wire) so they know that your electrician will not want to do it and charge MUCH more. It requires individual wires and conduit for the entire run. Don't do it there goes your warranty.
Their controller manufacturer thinks it is stupid, my BSEE degree tells me it is not needed and my father - who is one of the world's leading authority on Power SUpply Design does not see the need for this requirement.
I guess they want you to disregard this meaningless and expensive requirement so that they can void your warranty.
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I have seen them offer to extend the warranty if you agree to use there store and buy (or even pre buy) all your chemicals from them.
Some dealers go out of business.
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When I was buying my Cal SPa I was shown a 5 year warrantee that it turns out was only offered on custom ordered spas. If one was to choose one of the pre-specified factory option packages (the pricing GREATLY encouraged this) the warrantee became only 1 year.
And as they say it is not what they say they will cover but what they actually do cover - they have a deal where they (Cal Spa) requires #6 AWG wire for the ground wire. Nobody makes cable that way (they use 3 #6AWG with a #*AWG ground wire) so they know that your electrician will not want to do it and charge MUCH more. It requires individual wires and conduit for the entire run. Don't do it there goes your warranty.
Their controller manufacturer thinks it is stupid, my BSEE degree tells me it is not needed and my father - who is one of the world's leading authority on Power SUpply Design does not see the need for this requirement.
I guess they want you to disregard this meaningless and expensive requirement so that they can void your warranty.
Dino, I couldn't agree with you more, a local dealer now gone and in another city, carried a brand you are familiar with. They only bought red tags, seconds, returns and leakers at deep discount and without warranty. They refurbished and repaired the units and sold them as new, first quality spas and spas that had been supposedly used as floor demo's, with their own version of warranty conditions that you mentioned.
In spite of our disgust for knowing the truth, they out sold us. Shoppers bought into the sales pitch on "bargains", the"deals", and what appeared to be big discounts and 2 years later these consumers would come in to seek solutions to their problems. They were not happy people and they did not speak or think kindly of the sellers or industry that did this to them.
Of course if we competitors spoke of this dealer or mfg, it was considered negative bad mouthing. Saw it a lot. He's gone now, but money and opportunity always brings a new "marketer", and we all get lumped into the mix. That is what make some shoppers SOOO suspicious about dealers or whether or it is a "real" sale or not.
After 2 decades of this, I can no longer muffle my words.
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Sorry to a waken an old post. But what I did in shopping for my hot tub was ask please may I have a copy of your warranty if they said yes ok I feel better, if they said no! see ya! once I had a copy I would send it to my law firm for reveiw the company that had the best warranty won out in the end after wet testing and such.
so best of luck to all spa shoppers.
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Well, one good sign is that the manual and the warrantee are online. That makes me feel better. Full disclosure! (As with Sundance :) .... ) No need to ask the dealer for the fine print
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Sorry to a waken an old post. But what I did in shopping for my hot tub was ask please may I have a copy of your warranty if they said yes ok I feel better, if they said no! see ya! once I had a copy I would send it to my law firm for reveiw the company that had the best warranty won out in the end after wet testing and such.
so best of luck to all spa shoppers.
??? So I as a manufacturer can up my price and build in the "best" warranty and you'll buy it as long as I hide this substancial cost in the selling price? ???
Please consumers...remember that warranties are not free and that you're paying for it in the price. No different than " free delivery". Nothing in this world that has any value is free!
Steve
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Well said, Steve. I bet GM and Ford spend millions per year honoring their "free" 36 month bumper to bumber warranty, and I wonder who pays thoses expenses?
Brewman
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Exactly Brew!
Plus, if you need a lawyer to make sense of your warranty, it's most likely not designed to be consumer friendly nor protect your interest primarily.
Steve
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Let me ask you this? Do you buy a home with just signing blindly on the Purchase and sales agrement. I do Mortgages for a living. I advise my clients to see a lawyer for P&S understanding do to the fact that buying a Home is the largest investment one can make. In fact if a home buyer is smart they buy a extra title insurance which protects the buyer from the seller if any thing was not done to code. is this more money you bet. is paying a extra 100 to have something reveiwed to point out loop holes. like proration of spa. Say a ten year warranty and it's 9 years later and your shell cracks. the company prorates its and you pay the remaining balance for the new spa. Sorry that's a crappy warranty. I may pay a little more but as they say you get what you pay for. And send in any thing that has to do with legal mumbo jumbo warranties are wrote by lawyers so have one reveiw it is smart move 8 to 11 grand investment is nothing to sneeze at.
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OK - so car sales are down now, longer warranties aren't pulling people in anymore, and Ford GM and Chrysler are offering "employee pricing" to generate some sales.
What i want to know is: when is Lexus going to offer me a car for what a Ford employee pays?
;)
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Both Ford and GM's credit has recently been reduced to Junk Bond Status. I believe they are the only two domestically owned car companies left. Considering they both reap much of their profits from SUV's and pick-ups, it is not difficult to see why sales have lagged in this area due in part to escalating fuel costs.
I own a Ford 4X4 ext. cab V-8 that gets about 2 feet/ gallon. Terrific.
What i want to know is: when is Lexus going to offer me a car for what a Ford employee pays?
If you manage to pull this off, let me in on your secret! :)
Jc
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Let me ask you this? Do you buy a home with just signing blindly on the Purchase and sales agrement. I do Mortgages for a living. I advise my clients to see a lawyer for P&S understanding do to the fact that buying a Home is the largest investment one can make. In fact if a home buyer is smart they buy a extra title insurance which protects the buyer from the seller if any thing was not done to code. is this more money you bet. is paying a extra 100 to have something reveiwed to point out loop holes. like proration of spa. Say a ten year warranty and it's 9 years later and your shell cracks. the company prorates its and you pay the remaining balance for the new spa. Sorry that's a crappy warranty. I may pay a little more but as they say you get what you pay for. And send in any thing that has to do with legal mumbo jumbo warranties are wrote by lawyers so have one reveiw it is smart move 8 to 11 grand investment is nothing to sneeze at.
There's nothing wrong with being thorough tootall as I pride myself on that to a fault almost. I'm just saying that warranties cost money and any company can provide peace of mind if the consumer is willing to foot the bill. It's called pay now, or pay later. I hope you didn't miss my point as your response seems to show you did... ???
Steve
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Ok first off I don't know any Spa dealer that offers a "no exclusions" warrentee and if they would...I'd highly doubt the would actually honor that either. Second off, when I bought my Coleman 461 I asked for a copy of their warrentee and was happy that they said yes. I looked it over and it was the same as any other warrentee. I do agree that in the snow belt (Wyoming is the worst place for anyone to be a warm blooded person at in the deep chills of January), I think my warrentee will stand up to it if it freezes. But, what it says is that I am to maintain a temp of no lower than 103 in the winter time due to the fact that if the power goes out (and I can understand this) it's likely my hot tub will have a better chance at not freezing until the power comes back on. If it ever happens that the power goes out for more than say 48 hours, what happens if my tub freezes?? Does my warrentee cover that??
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I do not believe freezing is covered under warranty. Usually, it will be worded like, "we will cover any part that fails, but consequential damage like freezing or leaking onto expensive rugs are not covered."
It's along the same idea as if you sunk your tub into a deck and the tub leaks. The warranty only covers fixing the tub, not removing it from the hole.
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There's nothing wrong with being thorough tootall as I pride myself on that to a fault almost. I'm just saying that warranties cost money and any company can provide peace of mind if the consumer is willing to foot the bill. It's called pay now, or pay later. I hope you didn't miss my point as your response seems to show you did... ???
Steve
Might have I do understand that any warranty is cost passed on to coustomer but its better than paying out of pocket for repairs.
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Again...pay now or pay later. It's all an out of pocket expense.
There's a lot of other aspects to seriously consider in this purchase and i would'nt get too hung up on warranties.
Steve
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OK - so car sales are down now, longer warranties aren't pulling people in anymore, and Ford GM and Chrysler are offering "employee pricing" to generate some sales.
What i want to know is: when is Lexus going to offer me a car for what a Ford employee pays?
;)
Dream on Chas! I happen to know, the only way you can get an employee discount on the Chevy Corvette, is to have one of the plant managers drive it for a year (as a demo or something) and then they give you 10% off, not even the full 20% discount you get on anything else built by GM, even Cadillacs)!
Doubt Ford would be that crazy! But then again, you never know!
I'm so glad my Mom wouldn't let me get a job out there!
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It's gonna be interesting to see what was previously fine print in our warranty that's now gonna be in bold with regard to our Sundance Marin. Purchased it in September, noticed what we believed to be a leak and contacted service dept. in January. Was told the tub was being overfilled. Paid $25 service fee. Noticed same problem this week. Contacted service dept. who came out today. After removing insulation, found that the manufacturer failed to clamp a hose was not clamped properly, causing water to leak, and the entire bottom of tub has been saturated. Service guy has now "clamped the clamp, " however, 10 months has passed (7 months since we initially contacted service about the problem). We're concerned about how much long term damage this has done to the tub, and how it will effect the warranty as it now stands, since the majority of depreciation that has occurred resulted from manufacturer defect. We'd really like to have a new tub, but fat chance on that. Does anyone have any ideas what we can expect? Not really a sales office issue, or a service issue either. I'm having a hard time trying to enjoy this tub, now. Bummer. What do you folks think? :-[
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Pick a warranty with no exclusions
Rayman;
I hate to burst your bubble, but Bechcomber does have a very large, very vague exclusion in their warranty.
I don't have it in my hands so I will post it tommorrow.
In a nutshell, it says that it is at their sole discretion whether the tub has been subject to abuse. They do not go to the trouble of giving even one example of abuse.
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Let me ask you this? Do you buy a home with just signing blindly on the Purchase and sales agrement. I do Mortgages for a living. I advise my clients to see a lawyer for P&S understanding do to the fact that buying a Home is the largest investment one can make. In fact if a home buyer is smart they buy a extra title insurance which protects the buyer from the seller if any thing was not done to code. is this more money you bet. is paying a extra 100 to have something reveiwed to point out loop holes. like proration of spa. Say a ten year warranty and it's 9 years later and your shell cracks. the company prorates its and you pay the remaining balance for the new spa. Sorry that's a crappy warranty. I may pay a little more but as they say you get what you pay for. And send in any thing that has to do with legal mumbo jumbo warranties are wrote by lawyers so have one reveiw it is smart move 8 to 11 grand investment is nothing to sneeze at.
So lets say a 5 year warranty adds...ummm...$700-1000 on the ticket price.
What if you, like my parents, have a spa for 5 years and do not have a single major repair in 5 years. They have had to exchange two jet inserts ($20). Was the $700-1000 worth it?
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say for sake of easy numbers say a warranty does add 500 to the price tag and it goes for 10 years and you never use it. was it worth it? maybe not but what if Mr. X buys the same model and has the pump go out and the heater go out over the ten years was the extra 500 worth it sure. Now let look at this from a difrent angle you have car insurance right. An not one of use expects to get in wreck. So why pay thousands of dollars to cover our cars? Because we want to have the protection. Same with a warrenty we want protection whether we use it or not. Now say home owners insurance is that prorated? No I would like to see an Insurance Binder that says IF your house needs to be rebuilt we reserve the right to rebuild it at original constrution cost. I don't think I would agree to that nor would any lender. But I have read warranties that have wording like that. scarry
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It's gonna be interesting to see what was previously fine print in our warranty that's now gonna be in bold with regard to our Sundance Marin. Purchased it in September, noticed what we believed to be a leak and contacted service dept. in January. Was told the tub was being overfilled. Paid $25 service fee. Noticed same problem this week. Contacted service dept. who came out today. After removing insulation, found that the manufacturer failed to clamp a hose was not clamped properly, causing water to leak, and the entire bottom of tub has been saturated. Service guy has now "clamped the clamp, " however, 10 months has passed (7 months since we initially contacted service about the problem). We're concerned about how much long term damage this has done to the tub, and how it will effect the warranty as it now stands, since the majority of depreciation that has occurred resulted from manufacturer defect. We'd really like to have a new tub, but fat chance on that. Does anyone have any ideas what we can expect? Not really a sales office issue, or a service issue either. I'm having a hard time trying to enjoy this tub, now. Bummer. What do you folks think? :-[
First off, a warranty is intended to instill confidence in a manufactured product. The warranty says they will provide the "part" and the Labor" to correct the "defect" in material or workmanship. If they fixed it they honored the warranty and you got what you paid for. It did not promise you a "new" product, IF it happend. The warranty gave you confidence when you bought it, they fixed it when a problem developed. If it was built into a deck and it had to come out to get fixed, you would probably be upset, but THAT is not covered under the warranty. :(
Warranties are a manufacturers promise to say they are confident the product you are purchasing will not have a problem. IF they believe you MAY have a problem, you will read about it in the exclusions and limitations.
What is not written into the warranty is your dealer and his willingness to provide his service above and beyond what the manuyfacturer will pay him to FIX the problem. Yes, Yes I know, this was in the proverbial "PRICE" that you negotiated downward.
He is you warranty service center and what the manufacturer does for him is far less than what he does for you. AND, he does it for you because YOU are his cuctomer. This is where some dealers may flip you the porverbial finger, where the dealer you HOPEFULLY bought from, will go the extra mile to take care of you. SO, lets hope you left him with a warm fuzzy felling and a good impression that you too care. ;D ;D
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The question I would be concerned with is, The leak was reported after 3 months and was not corrected by the dealer until 10 months later. It was clearly a mfg defect (no clamp or clamped incorrectly). Will this cause any long term damage that the customer will suffer from later? The base was wet for 10 months and a few more weeks or months to dry completely. Will the base rot out after 7-10 yrs will the insulation be as good as it would have been if this would not happened. The dealers say most tubs (top brand) will last 15-20yrs will the owner of this tub have any issues with this tub 10-20 yrs from now because this has happened? If the customer does will the Mfg or dealer help them later after the warranty has expired? What do the dealers think?
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To J._McD & Jsimo7:
Thanks, guys for your input. J.Mc has provided the dose of reality as well as the best case scenario we could hope for, and though it's not what we'd like to hear, it's exactly what we need to know, as well as the honesty we hope to receive from this forum.
Jsimo has eloquently articulated our precise concerns. I couldn't have stated things any better, and this just personifies the "buyer beware" code of conduct. I'll let you all know what shakes out.
I could really use a good soak about now. :'(
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As a twenty-year tub owner, I can promise you that owning the tub is far more enjoyable than shopping for it.
;)
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As a twenty-year tub owner, I can promise you that owning the tub is far more enjoyable than shopping for it.
;)
Tell that to "Needsaspa" or whoever that goofball was who probably still has the offer for the Cameo on the table.
Brewman
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Tell that to "Needsaspa" or whoever that goofball was who probably still has the offer for the Cameo on the table.
Brewman
Are you refferring to Dazedandconfused? I sure miss him. Remember he came back for a few posts...
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Are you refferring to Dazedandconfused? I sure miss him. Remember he came back for a few posts...
Miss him? ???
Yeah, like a bad case of hemorrhoids! :o ;D
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To J._McD & Jsimo7:
Thanks, guys for your input. J.Mc has provided the dose of reality as well as the best case scenario we could hope for, and though it's not what we'd like to hear, it's exactly what we need to know, as well as the honesty we hope to receive from this forum.
Jsimo has eloquently articulated our precise concerns. I couldn't have stated things any better, and this just personifies the "buyer beware" code of conduct. I'll let you all know what shakes out.
I could really use a good soak about now. :'(
OK, have a good soak.
After you do, consider this approach. First, pull out all of the records you have of the service calls along with (hopefully) copies of the checks (or receipts) showing you paid for the service calls. Make copies and set up a file.
Key to your problem is that you reported the issue to the dealer, you PAID for him to come out and he made a documented ERROR in telling you what was wrong (if you have it in writing, WOW!). Subsequent to this, you AGAIN reported the SAME problem, he came out and THEN he discovered a leak that was a "factory defect." Straight up, you have a compensable issue because money changed hands and the dealer made an error that "reasonably" he should not have.
My suggestion to you is to write up and document the case completely. If you took pictures while this stuff was happening, include them as exhibits. Draft a letter to the President of Sundance Spas explaining what occurred. Request that a Sundance technician come to inspect your tub and "certify" to you in WRITING that the leak caused by their defective manufacturing and subsequent service error did NOT result in damage to your spa and that the leak shall NOT result in a decreased service life expectancy of the cabinet, cabinet floor or structural supports. Send the letter by Fed-Ex and keep proof of delivery. Send a copy to the dealer.
If Sundance responds to you but is not willing to inspect and certify, you have the basis of a compensable complaint because you could now show a "harm." If they come out and inspect, "pass" the spa and subsequent to this (during the warrantee period) the cabinet has "issues," you established a "paper trail" that shows actions by Sundance and their authorized dealer lead to the problem meaning it would be very difficult for them to deny a warrantee claim, especially in an administrative or judicial proceeding. Similarly, if the cabinet should fail outside of the warrantee period, you could reasonably show that Sundance's actions contributed to the failure meaning you MAY have potential for at least partial recovery.
Finally, if Sundance does NOTHING and does NOT respond to your inquiry, begin the process of a warrantee issue complaint through the state corporation commission or other state agency that handles consumer affairs. This at least puts Sundance on notice that you intend to pursue a complaint against them for a documented defect. They may attempt to negotiate with you for fear of negative publicity.
KEY to all of this is keeping a PAPER TRAIL and doing stuff in WRITING, regardless of how much you may or may not "trust" your dealer. ALWAYS pay for service calls by check or credit card and ALWAYS ask for a piece of paper with the dealer info showing the date, what they did and what they thought was the problem. Have the technician sign and date the form as well.
Everything I've read about Sundance here tells me that they will probably respond to you immediately and attempt to make you happy. BUT, many companies count on consumers GIVING UP and doing things INFORMALLY (by telephone) instead of putting stuff in WRITING. For you spa newbies out there – take some well-learned advice: DOCUMENT everything!
Good luck! If I can help more, just ask...
Drewski
8)
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Are you refferring to Dazedandconfused? I sure miss him. Remember he came back for a few posts...
Yeah, that's the one!
Brewman