Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: stuart on June 11, 2005, 04:25:13 pm
-
You know I have been thinking a lot about the tone of the board lately and the people posting….
I find it amazing that so many people are so…well, myopic! I know that I use that word a lot however I can’t seem to find a better one to fit the spa industry!
Very few owners of dealerships frequent these boards but many salespeople and customers do so I thought I would share my perspective;
Many of the salespeople here are tied to a brand by their paycheck…some have never sold anything else and some have no other choice, it’s a good job and they have bought into brand training and loyalty lock, stock and barrel.
Many of the customers here have owned one or maybe even two spas but are so confident with their personal research (or lack there of) that they will stand by their decision no matter what…. No one likes to admit they might be wrong. As a customer though, please understand that most industry pro’s have vastly more industry knowledge and experience. Debating what they say is encouraged as it keeps us all in check but try not to put yourself into that expert category, simply share your experience and opinion.
Then you have the dealers…you see we are the people that put our savings, our homes, our entire lives on the line to carry a product. Some pick a product because it is the only thing available in their area and some out of convenience but a few out of sheer choice. They would choose that brand no matter what they where offered!
In my case, when I choose a product to carry I directly effect the livelihood of 15 families, the future convenience and customer care of thousands of customers that depend on me staying in business, the well being of my family, my life savings, my future and even the ownership of my home and personal property.
I have to laugh because so often I get praised by salespeople on this forum when I post something that gives them an edge on someone else yet the exact same people will venomously attack something I say that might be questioning that same brand!
We have seen people move from brand to brand and change their outlook on something they sold against last month…heck, even manufactures do it! Look at HS, they where adamant that Endurol was better than everything out there and the only way to make a spa until they started selling quarite, then they said things like speakers and waterfalls where stupid and where just going to fail until they decided to sell them!
Here is the bottom line for me…sell what you sell with passion! Question what you want to question competitively but don’t comment on it without real experience or at least let it be known that it is just you’re opinion, don’t stand for false or misleading statements from other industry pros but state your case with professionalism. If your very experienced with one or two brands only, start learning the others.
If you’re an industry pro NEVER miss a trade show with new product and continue to bash last years model. You owe it to yourself and your customers to always be informed about the competition before attempting to compare your brand to others.
Most salespeople don’t shop for a brand like a dealer does…a dealer needs to be concerned the with the warranty performance, the national name recognition, serviceability, model/price range balance, dealer support from the factory and many more things. Face it as a salesperson you need a saleable product more than anything else.
Although I have always enjoyed the input of many of the sales pros here like Chris, SpaHappy, HotTubMan and all the rest. I truly appreciate a customer perspective on the consumer side like WindSurfDog, Lori, Brewman, Drewski and all the rest of the consumers that give input. Heck we even have Factory Reps like Steve! It’s the dealers here that have to put it all on the line one way or another…Guys like myself, Chas, Mendocino and JMcd (I’m glad you came on board) don’t really have the option of quitting and moving to another dealer or product without much recourse.
I think that many of the forums have become quite convoluted and even polluted with personal gain outweighing helpful assistance.
I find myself to often (as SpaHappy said so eloquently) like a moth to a flame being drawn onto the low-road and into a silly battle that does nothing to help a customer.
Where is the happy medium at then? At what point to you quit trying to be a crusader and start just sharing thoughts? I think that Chas does a great job of this and for the most part JMcD and Mendocino.
I would hire many of the people on this forum to work in my showroom site unseen just from reading their posts, whether I agree with their outlook or not.
The bottom line is this…I think that the credibility of the forum is becoming more challenged with salesmanship and brand positioning and don’t know that I can continue to support it…
-
Stuart,
I can see that you have put much thought into this post.
Well said.
-
I came to this board sharing the positive experiences that I have with CalSpas, and I was attacked by 3 sides.I finally come to an agreement that professionalism is a must and promote your product with pride.We sit down to a beer. And the only guy we did not buy one for starts another negative attack!!Now the same person is saying there's no credibility with the salesmen on this site. In my professional opinion I'd have to say he is having conflict in his area with the competition who may be puttin' the hurt on him.
Again I believe in my product and put all the faith of supporting my entire family on the line by selling it.I agree with J.Mcd that we need to keep it positive and speak of our products with pride and make a positive influence on the industry.That is what I intend to do! Posts like the one posted earlier by Stuart does nothing for anyone, it makes the industry look like a bunch of argumentative idiots.Stuart, you have your own skelatons, yet you take the time to try make others look bad.Shame on you! lastly you come up with this "story" it is as if you think all along you weren't part of the very unprofessionalism you speak against in this post. I suggest we lay this to rest right here.Maybe even delete some of the negative posts reflecting on our industry.I appologise for not buying you that beer yesterday,maybe that would have avoided this whole thing today. :-*
-
Stuart,
I very much appreciate your post ....I think what you are saying is trying to bring a truce to some of the bickering that was going on and not being as productive as we all would hope....I think you did a great job of trying to look at things from varying perspectives and while we may all not always agree I think for the most part the majority of people here simply try and offer their opinions and help in what ever way they can ....Thanks for your thoughts ....
-
I say you can all go to he11 ! ;D
The Crusader! ;)
-
steve,
I very much appreciate your post ....I think what you are saying is trying to bring a truce to some of the bickering that was going on and not being as productive as we all would hope....I think you did a great job of trying to look at things from varying perspectives and while we may all not always agree I think for the most part the majority of people here simply try and offer their opinions and help in what ever way they can ....Thanks for your thoughts .... ;D
-
Stuart, you stand tall in my books. Life is not about you it’s not about me. Life is about what we CAN DO. Your comments are from the heart and come deep from the soul. I have never met you. I don’t know you. How can I tell, your feelings replicate mine.
Subliminal marketing, arrogant posturing, ulterior motives, hidden agendas, combative challenges, product deficiencies, unethical practices, rip-off’s, dirty tricks, who is better than whom, you should look at mine, TP vs. FF and WHO say’s ozone doesn’t work. I too have my opinions and beliefs and I will represent them and protect them passionately. But, why am I here?
Is it to profit, slander, attack, challenge, get the scoop, promote my brand, tell my story, to save consumers from themselves, the cons, the liars, the scams, we have all been in this industry long enough to become well versed in history, knowledge and truth. Some of us have still not matured enough to see our selves as others do, and we and they continue to make fools of ourselves.
You have struck a nerve with me that goes to my core; yes we do put it ALL on the line. Not for a our own self serving purpose as others would think, but for the families of our employees, for the customers we serve, for the suppliers well sell, and for the quest of knowledge and understanding shoppers seek.
You can open your heart and soul in truths and still others will attack for their purpose, when you are simply trying to help. I have been there. I have made my statements to be attacked by others who don’t know what they are saying is wrong. What good does it do to challenge the ignorant, for they only argue their point while others choose to believe or side with one or the other? Who knows the truth when they only see their point of view? They truly believe themselves to be right until they learn. The problem is most others refuse to open their minds to listen and learn the point of view of others. Imagine what we could learn.
Take a coin between your fingers and hold it out before you. You opponent facing you sees the same coin, but yet would describe the details totally different and would be passionately adamant about the truth in what he sees, even though you see something entirely different. We must realize we are both looking at the same coin, but from different view points. It is still the same coin. Would one of us be wrong and the other right, would we both be wrong, or yet again, would we both be right.
I have been in this business for 21 years, and I too have my life on the line. I have subjected my wife, my family, my employees and their families, our income and our futures all on the line and for what. A fickle shopping consumer on a quest for the best spa, or is it the best choice, or is it the best decision, or the best price. I’ll tell you what I believe, I think they are looking for the best salesperson that is going to make their decision for them and take their money.
I have talked to far many more people than I have sold. When I follow them up, I am positive and up beat as I inquire if they have found what they were looking for or if I could answer any questions. Their response, they bought elsewhere and what they bought IMHO was a poor choice compared to what I offered them. What happened? They bought the half-truths, misleading innuendos, the lies and the distortion of-truth that led them to believe THEY MADE THE RIGHT DECISION. Many of them anticipate getting money back from some rebate scam. What am I to do other than to congratulate them on the decision making prowess, bite my lip and try to convince myself that in order to survive I too must learn to lie.
That is not why I am here. My ethics and my principles will never change. I will never change to be what others are. But yet, my manufacturer’s rep wants MORE market share in spite of the fact I am in the motor city and GM just announced 25,000 jobs lost forever, K-mart moved out of town, Loan GIANT was just foreclosed on and their chief principle has relocated to Arizona, I am sure with tons of that rebate money.
Now then, would anyone like to buy a very good Hot Tub at a very good price, from an honest person, NEXT IN LINE PLEASE?
-
You just spoke my life.
-
I have not checked out the site in a few months, and last I read Stuart you were saying farewell to the forum. I was really touched by your goodbye post.
Stuart, I think it is great that you want to help people, and I do believe you are sincere. If that is why you are on this forum and it gives you satisfaction that is awesome. My family and I work long hours and seven day weeks, to serve our customers. I spend my days helping customers. I don't get to talk with alot of other people in the business. I like this forum because I enjoy going at it with others in the industry, and hearing other opinions. Fighting about what we think and products we sell. Sometimes it does get a little out of hand, and a little over the top. (I agree with you on that) There were times I would be so ticked off from this site I couldn't sleep at night. But that is what makes this forum good, as well as helping and answering questions for buyers.
I am all for helping people, and when I have the time and there is an issue I feel I can help someone with I am more than willing. My point is, people are on here for different reasons, I like the heated topics, and getting into it with other people in the industry. If you enjoy helping and answering questions then just do it, don't judge everyone else because they are not on hear for the same reasons as you!!!
-
I personally,like to help people,when possible. I try to share me experiences with the hot tub,and stuff inter-related and unrelated with spas.
I also like to inform people of online crooks,and Mr.Conjuna is a prime example of such. I hate to see people being hustled,and if I can prevent 1 person from being taken by Mr.Conjuna,I'm happy!
In a nutshell, I like to visit this forum and other forums,for the simple facts that I can possibly learn something from others,share with others,and share a growing friendship with the people of each forum community.
Constructive critizism is great,as long as there is mutual respect given to each parties view/stance. That's what makes America and the POWER of freedom of speech special!
I'm rambling,and half asleep,so I'll sign off before I spin off on another tangent lol.
Nighters
-
Boy.......I'm sorry for not feeling the same way as alot here seem to. I never took it that serious.
It's just a stinking forum. I have alot of things right in front of my face everyday to take serious, not this.
-
So true Tman....so true! :) There's plenty of hot water for everyone to share and prosper from.
This medium is what I would call "2-D" land. A place to unwind and relax,and share/discuss views/opinions with each other. I've learned long ago,you can complain about something all you want,but ultimately,you're the pilot of the vessel called life. If you want to move forward in a positive direction,keep potential risks in plain site of your mirrors,but push forward with you're views of success. Don't be constantly leary of who's creeping up on you from behind,as it will cause you stress and grief.
Lastly,pick a football team to root for and support,and ride the ebbs and flows of the team,within yourself ;)
-
I find it personally very amusing that anyone would put too much stock in the ramblings that appear on any internet-based forum. Information appears on the internet without any requirement for truth.
We have to take the word of the source that they are even who they say they are or have any qualifications to share an opinion. Indeed on this Forum, we have Senior Members who don't own a Spa but have no concern about sharing their "expert" opinions. The fact that one sells them is no more reassuring of valid information because one must never forget that a Saleman "sells" to make a living - they are not in the game to provide a public service. To suggest that information provided by a Salesman on this Forum is any more valid that that of an owner is both arrogant and laughable.
In short, I read this forum to gather information about Spas and their care which I combine with other sources. I am a professional buyer and use the internet to aid in my daily buying decisions. I certainly wouldn't base these decisions on the idle chitchat of a forum
Enjoy using the Forum and sharing information but don't get too serious about it. Remember this old comment:
What is an expert? Someone in a suit fifty miles from home.
Now with the internet, you don't need the suit or to move off your couch.
Stay Wet. Enjoy
Tim
-
I missed the hyphen between "best" and "story" so I thought the title of this post was "Whats the best story". I was going to say that I always liked "GoldyLocks and the 3 Bears." ;)
-
ahhhh, look what the cat dragged in! ;D Good to see ya salesdvl.
Mine was "Willy Wonka". :)
Steve
-
Somehow that doesnt surprise me. ;D
-
I have a new found respect for your opinion Mendo ! :P
-
Stuart,
I would like to say if you are sincere with the story that you just posted, then you are a fool....I know you don't care. The one thing that I've always respected about you, is that you went out and did it on your own in the springs with all odds against you, and did a remarkable job on top of it. I tip my hat!
Ian,
You are starting to irritate me. I told you once that I would not "air dirty laundry" here and have been goaded once again into a pissing contest.
So far in the last few days you have questioned my ethics, my knowledge and called me a fool.
Be careful...This is a big dog that you do not want to continue to kick. I can promise you that you don't want to go on with this. I'm willing go as far as I need to and dig much deeper. If you want this to be a battle it can be...I promise that I have much more in my arsenal than your aware of. The best advice I can give you is to back off and just help people out here. You in an industry that I personally know many of the business owners in the area and at most of the factories. Many of the vendors and reps are personal friends. I have built my reputation for years and can and will use any influence it have to prove a point to you personally!
BTW, there are many people here that I would call friends and you aren’t getting anywhere with them either.
-
Let's lighten it up a notch boys and keep the threats and name calling to PM's only! ;)
I'm glad we're all passionate about our products (as it should be) but we're loosing focus on what this forum is all about.
We all have a vested interest in what we do and regardless of our position within this industry, if we don't produce, we loose. My house, cars, toys, the lavish lifestyle my wife has been accustomed to, etc., rely heavily on how well I do my job. If I don't do well, I also risk loosing everything I've worked for much like everyone else here if we lost our jobs.
The reason why we loose quality people on this forum is the pure disregard for experience and lack of respect for time served. It IS possible to be brand loyal and still provide quality advice without outright bashing. Now I'm not saying I'm an angel by any means but I've tried to keep things light as of late. Maybe we should all try harder to do the same. There are people here that I haven’t met that I would go to war with. There are others that I’ve had the pleasure of meeting and feel the same. My point is that I will stand behind these individuals and back them up 110% due to the respect I have for them. Stuart is certainly in that group (among many others) and I don’t suggest it’s wise to question the character of these people as they have made it their passion to help others and have helped raise the bar within our industry.
With the quality of people on this forum, it shouldn't be hard to give good advice and have fun doing it. It's just a matter of weeding out the people that have an agenda.
Steve
-
Chas...
did you like it.... my date fell asleep and we left before the end...I thought it was slow at times but it had its moments .....I left when I think there was only like 10 minutes left in the story ....PM and tell me how it ended...thanks
Mendo,
Your date did not fall asleep because of the movie but the endless hours of detailed conversation the those of us that are close to you get subjected to. You make us think more than we are used to! ;) ;D Heck, I'm still thinking about things you asked me in the last conversation!
Steve,
I agree with you to a point on lightening up however, although we all have a tendency to challenge one another’s brands, style and/or philosophy there is no excuse for personal attacks and name calling. I personally won't stand for it!!
Salesdvl buddy!
Where have you been? Good to see you around!
-
Mendo,
Your date did not fall asleep because of the movie but the endless hours of detailed conversation the those of us that are close to you get subjected to. You make us think more than we are used to! ;) ;D Heck, I'm still thinking about things you asked me in the last conversation!
Steve,
I agree with you to a point on lightening up however, although we all have a tendency to challenge one another’s brands, style and/or philosophy there is no excuse for personal attacks and name calling. I personally won't stand for it!!
Salesdvl buddy!
Where have you been? Good to see you around!
Not ANOTHER one fell asleep on a date with Mendo? :-[ ;) Sorry to hear bud. ;)
And yes, I agree with you Stu! There's a limit that must be made clear and you have every right to establish that line in the sand. I believe I've done it a coule of times too, even with my laid back, non-cronfrontational type of personality! ;)
Steve
-
well you boys know how it is when they feel safe and secure...they just want to curl by your side and never leave..... ;) ;)
-
Huh...and I thought it would have been from lack of performance... :-/ ;)
Whatever bakes your cake or floats your boat Mendo! ;D
Steve
-
lol....now now....Steve,
where are taking this poor board.....I hate stating the obvious but hey what can you say when you simply provide the kind of stress relive that puts one to sleep like baby right after.....of course you know I mean a Marquis spa.... ;)
-
HEYYYY YOU GUYYYYYS!!!!!
Ya'll need to hit your tubs for awhile...
BTW, "R," ease off on that SOCOM stuff brother, you're worrying me!
Drewski loves ya!
8)
-
Robert,
First off I'm sorry for the tardy response. I consider you my friend, we're all in this together.
As, far as your threats go....shoot big buddy .......are you ready for the battle of your lifetime? I too have been in this industry for along time...fresh out of HS.....and also have many friends. Way beyond your little message board.
Don't forget, I'm still the idiot salesperson and your the owner. I really hoped that you would just accept my apology..but you had to dig once again!
Robert............I'm in no way scared of who you know............or who they know!!!!!!!!!!
In fact I would love to talk to..whoever you supposedly know!
You typed that I have talk negative about other spas.......yes your probably right back in 1995 I did bash Cal Spas...wouldn't you? We had no choice then:(
Robert, I realize that you have did awesome...I've told you many times. I've also heard many stories about you...yes from these supposed friends that you're going to turn me into. I know your an owner, but don't kid yourself how far an average salesman can go!
Since you seem to like this...test me once!!
Robert, I don't want to go down this road, but will if I have too!! Kick me big dog!!!!!!!!
I removed my post and realized you did not do the same.
Good luck,
Ian
-
And the topic of discussion again, is.....
Spas- ;D
Wanna talk about movies etc.? Cool. PM or BS or somewhere else. Off topic posts were deleted.
Carry on.
-
Sorry,
Spas...which do you like? I like Cal Spas!
-
Hey Stuart,
Your post is a little large to quote, so I won't, but I would like to say that I too share your views. I don't come on here often, as I just don't have the time. I admit that the main reason I check the site out is to see how customers view our spas, and try and keep some hear who cross the line in check. If find myself coming less now, as the topics don't change much. It seems to me that many of the posts continue to argue about the same topics.
I thought maybe I would share a comment I once heard from a moderator in my EO (Entreprenuers Organization) chapter.
"Share your experiences with people, not your opinions". The reality is we tend to learn more from reading and listening to other's experiences, as it give us an opportunity to draw our own conclusions, and take our own actions. Opinions most often come across as telling others what to do, and let's face it, few people respond well to a stranger telling them what to do.
My experience on this site has been both enjoyable and frustrating. There is a wealth of knowledge in the people that post here. It is simply unfortunate that so many use their experience and knowledge to bash and belittle one another. I wonder what the customers that come hear to read about experiences think of the professionalism projected here?
James Keirstead
Arctic Spas
-
I wonder what the customers that come hear to read about experiences think of the professionalism projected here?
Direct me to the topic that projects professionalism ... and I'll let you know...
-
Direct me to the topic that projects professionalism ... and I'll let you know...
Ahhh HA! Found one on page 299. I had to go back to when Ken Lewis was still posing but I found one at least! ;)
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1320
Steve
-
James,
You and I really do need to have that cup of coffee at the next show!
-
I just read this post from the beginning and it is the worst post I have read on this forum since I have been reading it (3 1/2 MOS). The threats in this post by Stuart are VERY unprofessional. If you need to make threats do it behind closed doors. From a customers point of view I'm shocked by this post. Good luck to all and lets try to get along.
-
Well said Stuart!
Regards, Zz
-
Well said Stuart!
Regards, Zz
Zz buddy! how the heck are you!? Been wondering what up with you!
-
:-[ Alright guys...What's going on here?! This entire forum which I was ready to help base my decision has been completely ridiculed on its own recognizance. Now I realize who is doing what here and how many people with their own personal agendas are running rampant through this site talking all types of BS. I don't think I will be returning to explore everybody's opinions because that is not what they are. I hope that the industry as a whole is not as immature as you. I believe that J McD and Stuart are about the only two reasonable and intelligent human beings. Every other taste of dishonesty is repulsive. I'll be making my decision on what I think looks good. Sorry folks.
-
:-[ Alright guys...What's going on here?! This entire forum which I was ready to help base my decision has been completely ridiculed on its own recognizance. Now I realize who is doing what here and how many people with their own personal agendas are running rampant through this site talking all types of BS. I don't think I will be returning to explore everybody's opinions because that is not what they are. I hope that the industry as a whole is not as immature as you. I believe that J McD and Stuart are about the only two reasonable and intelligent human beings. Every other taste of dishonesty is repulsive. I'll be making my decision on what I think looks good. Sorry folks.
WOW. I guess you found us out!
-
:-[ Alright guys...What's going on here?! This entire forum which I was ready to help base my decision has been completely ridiculed on its own recognizance. Now I realize who is doing what here and how many people with their own personal agendas are running rampant through this site talking all types of BS. I don't think I will be returning to explore everybody's opinions because that is not what they are. I hope that the industry as a whole is not as immature as you. I believe that J McD and Stuart are about the only two reasonable and intelligent human beings. Every other taste of dishonesty is repulsive. I'll be making my decision on what I think looks good. Sorry folks.
Hotwaterman, I would invite you to stay around and stir the pot and see what develops.
What have you looked at that you have liked so far and why have you not bought something yet? ???
-
I've been released on my own recognizance, but ridiculed?
-
:-[ Alright guys...What's going on here?! This entire forum which I was ready to help base my decision has been completely ridiculed on its own recognizance. Now I realize who is doing what here and how many people with their own personal agendas are running rampant through this site talking all types of BS. I don't think I will be returning to explore everybody's opinions because that is not what they are. I hope that the industry as a whole is not as immature as you. I believe that J McD and Stuart are about the only two reasonable and intelligent human beings. Every other taste of dishonesty is repulsive. I'll be making my decision on what I think looks good. Sorry folks.
Geez, and you seemed so happy with the input you received...
"I read a lot of the submissions and it seems very intriguing in terms of the detail provided by everybody who submits. "
"Thanks for the advice guys. "
"Thanks for the feedback guys "
"WOW!! that looks fantastic. :) I heard about this new majaesta spa. What do u think of it? I am considerring a sundance as well? "
Seems to me like you got a LOT out of this forum and maybe the rest of us aren't too unreasonable and unintelligent as human beings after all? ??? ::)
The drama some people create... ::)
Steve
-
No, he's right.
I am utterly unintelligent and totally unreasonable.
:-[
-
Yeah, I am too but I was speaking on behalf of the smart, resonable people that post here... :-/
;D
Steve
-
Chas and Steve,
:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
(sorry I couldn't be more reasonable and intelligent with that) ;D
-
Sigh,where do I fit in as far as a fellow lamer,on the recognizance scale?
Going home to my mommie,and cry the blues :(
-
Chas and Steve,
:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
(sorry I couldn't be more reasonable and intelligent with that) ;D
Oh sure...rub it in why don't you. Easy for you to say as one of the only smartlike human beings here. I'm only 50% human being and 50% British so obviously I wasn't included in that well thought out, researched and impartial poll of hotwaterman's. :P
BTW...do that again Stu and I'm cutt'n it off! :o ;D
Steve