Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Interplayfun on July 07, 2005, 06:38:28 pm
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We are looking at 4 tubs (so far) having narrowed things down a bit, and I'm looking for some feedback from folks who are familiar with them. First, we have a limited space for the tub (7'x7') so we are only looking at tubs that are 6.6x6.6 or a bit smaller. We want the tub to comfortably accomodate 4 people. Our short list includes:
* The Caldera Cumberland
* The Artesian Merlin
* The Marquis Mirage
* The Tiger River (Hot springs) Sumatran
Key questions:
* What are advantages/disadvantages of 220-40 vs. 115 amp electrical
* Is the ozonator worth it?
* We want to put this spa on 4 inches of pea gravel interspersed with a couple of 4x4s . . . any comments on this method?
* What about Micoban? Is this essential?
* Using Silver ions? Yes/No? Some say it makes for much clearer water??
Enough for now . . . thanks.
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We are looking at 4 tubs (so far) having narrowed things down a bit, and I'm looking for some feedback from folks who are familiar with them. First, we have a limited space for the tub (7'x7') so we are only looking at tubs that are 6.6x6.6 or a bit smaller. We want the tub to comfortably accomodate 4 people. Our short list includes:
* The Caldera Cumberland
* The Artesian Merlin
* The Marquis Mirage
* The Tiger River (Hot springs) Sumatran
Key questions:
* What are advantages/disadvantages of 220-40 vs. 115 amp electrical
220v will allow your heater to operate while the pump is on high speed. Nice in the winter, especially if you enjoy a long soak.
* Is the ozonator worth it?
Debatable. Can you have nice water without? YES. Is it easier with one? YES. Wisocki will tell you what he thinks....
* We want to put this spa on 4 inches of pea gravel interspersed with a couple of 4x4s . . . any comments on this method?
I would prefer 6"
* What about Micoban? Is this essential?
Again, debatable. Microban does not inhibit bacterial growth in the water, just in the acrylic.
* Using Silver ions? Yes/No? Some say it makes for much clearer water??
I'll leave this for my American friends. Everyone here seems to think it works great
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Ok micro ban is in more then Marquis spa shells. Micro ban is in surgical gowns, masks, sugical kits that go thru an autoclave. how do I know this my Wife is an RN and works around a hundred products that have micro ban in it. plus most people sleep on it its in pillows and mattresses.
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Ok micro ban is in more then Marquis spa shells. Micro ban is in surgical gowns, masks, sugical kits that go thru an autoclave. how do I know this my Wife is an RN and works around a hundred products that have micro ban in it. plus most people sleep on it its in pillows and mattresses.
Your point?
It's in the tubs I sell too. They aren't Marquis.
That dosen't mean that an antibacterial agent in a non-porous material will sanitize the water....
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220v will heat your water 4 times faster than 115 volt.
What is on the bottom of the tubs? If the tub has 2 x 4s on the bottom, you would want to make sure the 4 x 4s go perpendicular to them.
Microban is not essential. It should really have no bearing on what tub you buy.
I have found the silver ions to be a great addition to your water chemistry program. Just remember, you still need a sanitizer.
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yep Micro ban only prevents bacterial growth on the shell where the water and chemicals to always wash it. But it should never ever be the top selling point. Like Ohhhh micro ban I'll buy it. Buying a spa should in my opinon should be quality, costomer service befor during and after buying, talking with costomers that have bought the same brand from the same dealer. Wet testing it and then price.
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Your point?
It's in the tubs I sell too. They aren't Marquis.
That dosen't mean that an antibacterial agent in a non-porous material will sanitize the water....
Does anyone try to sell it that way? I've never gotten that impression. If anything I inferred that it would help keep the surface of the tub cleaner.
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Ozone and silver are not necessary, however, I believe that it will help with maintenance. Microban does work, but its not a necessity. Maybe just peace of mind. I would run 240 if your not concerned about added installation costs.
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Thanks for all the info folks. Sounds like the Silver ion is worth it with the sanitizer. Microban is not a big selling point for me . . . just an offer from manufacturers on some of the tubs . . . so it's good to know more about its use. I'm also hearing that 240v is worth it for the convinience and this is not a problem for us as we already have two 20amp ciruits in the garden near where the tub will go . . . so we can run a 240v to the same location or perhaps convert the existing two into one. Any comments on the tubs themselves, quality, manufacturer reputation, etc.?
Thanks again.
d
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All those brands are good choices. I hold the same opinion of Microban as seems normal here, no biggy. 240 volt for sure. Silver IONS, no biggy. I use N2 and it does help to reduce sanitizer needs between uses in conjuntion with an O3 generator. But that's all reduce your waters needs for sanitizer, not eliminate it.
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On July 7 HautTubeman wrote:
Debatable. Can you have nice water without? YES. Is it easier with one? YES. Wisocki will tell you what he thinks....
And my name was brought up because........? And again incorrectly spielt.
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I agree with the 240v.
I have a Cd ozinator. Those that sell them swear by them, others debate it. I think it's a good idea.
I would like to be able to keep my tub as clean as possible while minimizing adding harsh skin iratating chemicals. So the ozinator was a plus for me.
The silver ion doo-hickey. I'm skeptical. Yea, I bought one. It was $30 and supposedly last for 3 months. Once again, I am very interested in reducing the amount of harsh chems in my water. I didn't see too much of a risk in trying it. I will probably not buy one in the following 3 months to see if there is any noticiable difference and continue to evaluate it.
Microban? I wouldnt pay extra for this or make it a deciding factor.
I have a Tiger River Caspain and the quality of the unit is excellent.
Hope that helps.
:D
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On July 7 HautTubeman wrote:
Debatable. Can you have nice water without? YES. Is it easier with one? YES. Wisocki will tell you what he thinks....
And my name was brought up because........? And again incorrectly spielt.
LOL. WISOKI[/b] my apologies on the name, you feel quite strongly about this I see.
I brought up your name because I know you usually say ozone is BS, and I thought I knew if you read the thread you would say so.
I will refrain from referring to you by name in the future as not to upset you.
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I was told that 240 service is cheaper to run as well. I read somewhere that 110 costs a fortune for tubs.
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I was told that 240 service is cheaper to run as well. I read somewhere that 110 costs a fortune for tubs.
Not always true. I have sold thousands of HotSpring and Tiger River tubs which were installed on 110. Fewer and fewer models are now convertable as HS moves towards 220 as standard and 110/convertable as an option, but I have plenty of them out there. They do not cost much to run - most of them are in the $15 per month range. I also sell tubs to people who are replacing poorly insulated tubs with bad covers which did, in fact, cost them a small fortune to run. They are always excited at the massive drop in operating costs.
What I'm saying is: electricians generally tell my customers that "220 costs less to run," but if they understood the whole picture they would say, "tubs which are poorly designed, poorly insulated, have poorly-fitted or flimsy covers, run big jet pumps for daily filtration and must run a larger pump whenever heating" will cost more to run.
HotSpring and many other makers use a small circ pump which runs all the time. So if the heater has to run 4 hours at 1500 watts it will cost you precisely the same as 6000 watts running for an hour. The running circ pump keeps the water equal temp all over, including in the plumbing - and that usually ends up saving money in operating costs.
Now, there are other reasons why 220 may be a better choice for you: larger jet pumps, faster heating. The latter really only matters after a water change since most tubs stay at temp all the time. And if you are going to need to run power all the way from one end of your yard to the other - as always seems to be the case - then you might as well run 220, you'll never be sorry you did.
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Not always true. I have sold thousands of HotSpring and Tiger River tubs which were installed on 110. Fewer and fewer models are now convertable as HS moves towards 220 as standard and 110/convertable as an option, but I have plenty of them out there. They do not cost much to run - most of them are in the $15 per month range. I also sell tubs to people who are replacing poorly insulated tubs with bad covers which did, in fact, cost them a small fortune to run. They are always excited at the massive drop in operating costs.
What I'm saying is: electricians generally tell my customers that "220 costs less to run," but if they understood the whole picture they would say, "tubs which are poorly designed, poorly insulated, have poorly-fitted or flimsy covers, run big jet pumps for daily filtration and must run a larger pump whenever heating" will cost more to run.
HotSpring and many other makers use a small circ pump which runs all the time. So if the heater has to run 4 hours at 1500 watts it will cost you precisely the same as 6000 watts running for an hour. The running circ pump keeps the water equal temp all over, including in the plumbing - and that usually ends up saving money in operating costs.
Now, there are other reasons why 220 may be a better choice for you: larger jet pumps, faster heating. The latter really only matters after a water change since most tubs stay at temp all the time. And if you are going to need to run power all the way from one end of your yard to the other - as always seems to be the case - then you might as well run 220, you'll never be sorry you did.
This is something I learned because of Chas. This comes up from time to time, so I learned it about 18 months ago.
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I brought up your name because I know you usually say ozone is BS, and I thought I knew if you read the thread you would say so.
That's OK, Wisokie still hasn't completely bought into the idea that microwave ovens are useful.
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It just doesn't taste the same... :D
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How amusingly correct you are. I still pop my popcorn stove top, tbsp of oil, 2 tbsps. popping corn and shake vigerously, butter and salt to taste. I cook portions appropriate for the meal, therefore, no leftovers to reheat. My coffee, I make fresh every morning, and I don't eat microwaveable meals, and have used mine for nothing more than the count down timer it has built into it. Usefull, sure, cooking utensile, not in my house. ;)
That's OK, Wisokie still hasn't completely bought into the idea that microwave ovens are useful.
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Well, here's a bit of news for you. An individual in another forum explained a couple of things that suddenly made sense, am I totaly sold on ozone, not sure, do I disregard it's usefulness, not entirely, do I question what I don't understand until I find the right answers and not blindly follow "popular opinion" absolutly. I still have questions about ozone and I've been working with, installing and selling them for 14 years. Here's something for you to chew on, the Caldera Spas Ozone CD ozone has been tested and shown to produce 350+ ppm I think very similar to the HS fresh water system, Del CD ozonators tested at 50 ppm and JED came in at the bottom with some producing as little as 12ppm. Interesting stuff, huh?
Interplay, you are in a pretty good zone there, you'll be happy with any of them.
LOL. WISOKI[/b] my apologies on the name, you feel quite strongly about this I see.
I brought up your name because I know you usually say ozone is BS, and I thought I knew if you read the thread you would say so.
I will refrain from referring to you by name in the future as not to upset you.
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Was it this thread where someone said they could control the number of hours ozone was in use? I think that was mentioned on a tub with a 24hr circ pump. If such a thing exists, it might make for a good experement on the effectiveness of ozone.
Anyone heard of tubs with 24 circ pumps with ioniozation? I've been looking at the new Advantage line of tubs from Dynasty (wish they would update thier website) and my dealer is trying to practially give me one, but my wife loves our current tub so much.
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Er, well, I assume my SD Max will run the ozonator 24 hours, no? It sure has a 24 hour circulator. I'll check the manual, but I thought the ozonator ran with the circ pump...
Edit: Nothing in the online manual except that the ozonator will reduce need for chemicals... Okay... big help. I'd assume it would run with the circ pump, no?
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Er, well, I assume my SD Max will run the ozonator 24 hours, no? It sure has a 24 hour circulator. I'll check the manual, but I thought the ozonator ran with the circ pump...
Edit: Nothing in the online manual except that the ozonator will reduce need for chemicals... Okay... big help. I'd assume it would run with the circ pump, no?
That is my assumption, and I think the norm, but I thought I rememberd someone specifically say they could control how long the ozonator ran in thier setup. (Maybe I was just stealing backpains meds again)
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a twenty amp breaker is not big enough 50 amp is what you need on 240v and it has to be a GCFI breaker as well. best of luck to you in what ever brand and model you chose.
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I think I remember the 'control the ozonator timing' thread, also, and I'm not on pain meds (at least not this week...). Perhaps that spa ran the ozonator (we gotta call it O3 or something, that's too hard to type...) through the filter cycle pumps, and it ran only when the filter cycle ran, and that was how they controlled the ozonator timing??
Me, I'd rather have a 24 circ and 24 hour ozonator, since it's better to have it doing whatever you think it does throughout all the water all the time! :)
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I posted under HELP/w/first time spa buyer.....can someone just tell me the most important things to look for when buying a spa?
We were looking at a Leisure Bay spa and that's definitely out the window after reading the posts. If we know the major things to look for then we can worry about the bells and whistles.
Thanks all!
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Cappy,
Some of the best advice I got in here was "go with a major name". and "Go with a reputabale dealer".
That being said, you should be aware of what your needs are. When someone posts that question here my questions are:
How many people will be using the tub?
Where do you live?
Will the tub be inside or out?
Is this a tub for therapy or relaxation & recreation?
Do you have any space or size restrictions?
Any buget concerns?
There are many dealers here that can point out tubs that would meet your needs, as well as talk far more inteligently to their specific qualities.
Be learly of "specials", and free steroes ;)
Stay away from internet dealers that make outragous claims about thier "specail" technoligy.
Big box stores selling tubs are not thought of very highly here, nor those tubs you see on TV. Therma pain or something....
Wet test the tubs.
HOpe that helps. :)
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That is my assumption, and I think the norm, but I thought I rememberd someone specifically say they could control how long the ozonator ran in thier setup. (Maybe I was just stealing backpains meds again)
I might have been the one - Artesian's with circ pumps have a feature to control the ozone. I guess they use this instead of turning a pump on low.
And how about sharing them meds!!
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Drewstar...in answer to your questions:
2 but would like room for 5-6
Orlando, FL
Probably in a screened porch but not sure yet
Therapy and relaxation (wife has severe fibromyalgia, neck & back pain due to auto accident)
No space or size restrictions
Budget concerns: insurance will pay
Would like stereo/surround sound
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Cappy;
Have you decided whether you want a lounge or not? I was about to recommenc some makes and models, but the lounger thing can make a big difference in my list.
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Oh yes, we definitely want a lounger....even 2. The Leisure Bay model we were looking at had 2 loungers.
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A couple of models that have two lounge seats would be the Dimension One Diplomat, The Coleman 472, and The Coleman 482. Hope this helps out a little bit. Both spas can provide excellent therapy.
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Be sure you wet test a lounger. They can be the best seat in the house or a waste of space.
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May I also suggest the Hydropool 700. Two loungers, side by side or face to face. Also allows seating for 5 more (3 comfortably).
Not a whole lot of other dual lounger models that I am aware besides what has already been mentioned.
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We look at 2 brands today; Master Spa LSX and HotSpring Envoy & Vanguard. We wet tested the HS and really like their tubs. Only concern is the kiln dried bottom. We live in Orlando, FL and concern with moisture, insects. We were told the woood is treated with arsenic so no problem with bugs and because the wood is kiln dried no problem with rot.
There's about $1000 difference in the LSX and HS Envoy. MS being the more expensive. We weren't able to wet test it.
MS has a layered insulation with HS being full foam.
We're not specifically looking for a tub with 2 loungers...actually only want 1. Who has HS that can tell me what the negatives are and the same with MS.
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I have had my Vanguard for almost 2 years now! I can't think of anything negative to say!
I was not able to look or test a Master, but there are a number of satisfied owners on the board! They love theirs!
You can't go wrong with either, in my opinion. You said you weren't able to wet test the Master. May I ask if that was because they didn't have one up and running (or the specific one you are interested in)? Get in it wet! That is how you knew the HotSpring felt right! I ended up wet testing the final 2 back-to-back! Just to know for sure!!!
Good luck! Have fun wet testing!!!
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Hey . . . has anyone heard of . . . or better yet, purchased, a spa by a company called Freeflow? It's called the Passport . . . and is comprarable to the Caldera Cumperland or the Mistique Mirage. Any info would be appreciated.
thanks,
d
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Freeflow makes their tubs by rotationally molding some sort of cross-linked polymer. It is sprayed with a light-density foam.
They are a fairly young company.
They use off-the-shelf componants for jets and control system.
They work.
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Even comparing the Masters to the Hot Springs is silly. I'm a Sundance dealer and I wont even bring my own tub into the mix. You can find all yo need to Know about Master's Spas by by searching the "reviews" section of this website. Or maybe you can earn a free tub with their rebate program!!!! ;D
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Or maybe you can earn a free tub with their rebate program!!!! ;D
Ouch!
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Did y'all see the article in I think last months P&S News about the cashable rebate law suit. But we all new the clock was ticking on that one, didn't we. Just think of how many people they suckered into paying full MSRP with the promise of getting ALL their money back. Who was it, P.T. Barnum that said, "there's one born every minute."
Even comparing the Masters to the Hot Springs is silly. I'm a Sundance dealer and I wont even bring my own tub into the mix. You can find all yo need to Know about Master's Spas by by searching the "reviews" section of this website. Or maybe you can earn a free tub with their rebate program!!!! ;D
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We look at 2 brands today; Master Spa LSX and HotSpring Envoy & Vanguard. We wet tested the HS and really like their tubs. Only concern is the kiln dried bottom. We live in Orlando, FL and concern with moisture, insects. We were told the woood is treated with arsenic so no problem with bugs and because the wood is kiln dried no problem with rot.
There's about $1000 difference in the LSX and HS Envoy. MS being the more expensive. We weren't able to wet test it.
MS has a layered insulation with HS being full foam.
We're not specifically looking for a tub with 2 loungers...actually only want 1. Who has HS that can tell me what the negatives are and the same with MS.
I do have a good friend who is the happy owner of an LSX for about 3 years now.
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Lori...we couldn't wet test the MS because none of them were heated. Now even though I live in Orlando, FL, I wasn't about to get into a cold tub. Wasn't crazy about the salesman. We had our grandson with us and he's all into the hot tub thing...has one at his house. Wanted to test them out....salesman didn't even acknowledge him. Not a big deal maybe, but big difference between how we were treated there and the HS people. They were all about letting him get in, play...I will have to say that they were great to deal with.
I did mention to the MS salesman that I had read we should wet test before buying....he didn't push that idea probably because none of the tubs were heated. Something about the building and the heat, etc. Not a slam on MS. Of course he said they were the best because eve the pres has one at Camp David. I'm one of those people who analyzes and looks at everything, so this is a difficult decision for me. My husband is pretty much leaving the decision up to me. He knows if I'm happy, he'll be happy. Smart man!!
I don't know what we are going to do....this is like buying a car!! I guess it will come down to which looks and feels best, construction, and warranty.
Have a lot more to look at, so I'll keep posting as we check them out.
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I don't blame you one bit! Oooh! Why would you want to wet test a cold spa! Eeewwwwwww!!! :o
I was just curious!
Dealer comfort is a big deal to me! I liked all the dealers I went to, none bad mouthed the others, none were high pressure! They all let me wet test, too!!
It is worse than buying a car, but hang in there! It is really worth it! My hubby did the same thing to me, let the decision be mine! I think we both have smart men! LOL! ;) ;D
Good luck!
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Of course he said they were the best because eve the pres has one at Camp David.
I was aware that the White House has had HS Grandees at it for years, as well as Bush Sr. owning a Grandee in Kennybunkport. (Jade shell w/coastal grey ext.) Sold to him by Jim Van Fleet (Mainly Tubs). So if Jr. has a Master Spa at Camp David??? I wonder if he went for the whole rebate program???
;D
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Does the HS cir pump pump water through the plumbing Chas wrote"The running circ pump keeps the water equal temp all over, including in the plumbing " My Envoy send cool water from the jets and waterfall when the pumps are started for the first few seconds. Do I have a problem that I need to correct before the tub goes through the 1st winter??