Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Gomboman on May 29, 2005, 01:15:29 am
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I'm an honest person and want to do the right thing. Before I purchase my spa I want to make sure that I can permit the spa in an area in the corner of my yard on top of a concrete step up patio--150' from my breaker box. The spa will be about three feet from my property line. I live in Southern California.
Anyway, I went to my local City Hall and inquired about permitting a portable spa. The woman handling permits for my area said that I have to follow the same regulations as in-ground pool/spa. She kindly gave me a handout. According to the handout I have to have a pool fence, locking gates, alarms etc. I know this isn't right so I went to the next town near me and this time the permit representative told me that a portable spa doesn't require a permit and to do nothing. She said just hire a licensed contractor to complete the electrical work to code. Both cities that I went to have a population of nearly 100,000 people.
I called an electrician that was referred to me by my dealer. I had him come over for an electrical quote. He told me that in his 15 years of installing spas he never has had anyone ask him to pull a permit. He said that I would only be wasting my money since he would do the same work regardless if it were permitted or not. He said that he could lose his license if he did any work not to code so don't worry about it. My dealer told me that even though they recommend pulling a permit, most folks don't. The electrical quote was $1,500 by the way since the distance is so great.
I still plan on obtaining a permit but I'm frustrated with this process and still do not know what the requirements are? Maybe I just need an electrical permit? The dealer tells me to talk to the city. The city doesn't have a clue. I'm basically getting the run around. Now I know why most people don't bother. ???
Did you pull a permit for your spa? If not, why? Any other horror stories like mine?
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Boy, I can relate to your story!
My dealer also indicated the majority of people do not pull permits. From my experience I can understand why – cost & difficulty in getting clear info.
My electrician actually suggested I pull a permit for my own protection. Heaven forbid if any accident happen the lawyers would have more ammunition to get to our assets if it we didn’t have a permit for the tub. I feel more comfortable with this.
Cost of building permit form our town: $300
I got the run-around trying to find out requirements: The town building inspector said the dealer should know & the dealer said every town is different so the building inspector should know. I was finally able to get the inspector to tell me the town has not special requirements, just compliance with NY State Fire Prevention & Building Code. Copy of NY code not available unless you buy it. I had to find the right people in Albany, & inquire about this. The one helpful person in this sad saga was the state engineer who faxed me pertinent sections of the code along with his business card. I had to spend a lot of time researching all this.
Cost of electrical permit/filing fee: $200
Electrician seemed very knowledgeable.
I just had installation last week, have not had inspections yet. Separate inspections for town & for electrical. I hope we did everything right & we comply.
It is not easy.
???
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It definitly depends on your political conscience. It seems each community in our area has a differeing opinon because you have that many inspectors. As inspectors go, I have had to argue with a few of them that the GFCI will in fact work correctly without a neutural wire to the spa. Just because they are the "Inspector" dosen't mean they are the sharpest knife in the drawer. Remeber inspector Cluseaux.
A pool requires a permit because it is a permanent item subject to code restrictions.
A spa is an electrical appliance similar to any other large electrical appliance that can move to your next address, it is not a permanent object UNTIL you make it part of the deck, build it in thus making it stationary or hook it up to the water supply plumbing.
A spa holds water and sits UP off of the ground and IS SOLD WITH A SAFETY, LOCK DOWN COVER. It upsets me when the salesperson says he will throw it in if you buy today, OK that was in the 80's.
When inspectors get involved, they do look for certain issues, electric is ALWAYS subject to inspection which blows your cover otherwise but you can always plead ignorance. :-X
Inspectors will verify NO overhead wires subject to dropping accross the Hot Tub, distance away from safety disconnect, GFCI circuit protection, proper awg wire, in general proper code procedure.
Building inspectors will look for different things and appropriately so, placement under or within 5 feet of a window, (must be removed and replaced with safety gla$$), secure safety issues like an safety, lock down cover that meets the ASTM standards to pass code.
After that they start to get into your private life to support and increase tax base. ::)
At no time do I believe it to be appropriate to reveal WHAT you PAID for the spa. They do not need that information unless they want to add it to the tax base as a "property improvement". NO WAY.
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At no time do I believe it to be appropriate to reveal WHAT you PAID for the spa. They do not need that information unless they want to add it to the tax base as a "property improvement". NO WAY.
Our town uses the price of the spa as the basis for the cost of the building permit. I believe it’s $25 per $1000 of cost of improvement with a certain minimum. They did not ask for receipt or any verification when I applied for the permit.
I may have to protest if/when they want to raise my tax base.
They need to collect revenue however they can.
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Great question but how is this an "Official" poll. Did Bill sanction it? ;D
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I didn''t need a "spa" permit, but in my area, any electrical work needs a permit and 2 inspections.
I did get an electrical permit, cost was $40.
Brewman
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Brewman for your permit on the electrical, did you get the permit and then have the electrical done? If so, did they inspect your home prior to the electrical being hooked up and then again after?
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I did the electrical myself, which is why I pulled the permit. In Minnesota, you apply to the state board of electricity, pay $40, and once you send everything in, you can begin your project. You must call for a rough in inspection at a specific time- before you bury any wiring in walls, ceiling, ground, etc. And all junction points must be open. Once you pass rough in, you finish the project, and call again for a final. The $40 covers the rough in and final inspection. Each additional trip beyond that is another $20, so if you fail your rough in, you pay the inspector on his way out.
If I was hiring a pro, I'd insist that they pull the permit, and I'd check to make sure there was one. The person pulling the permit is accountable to the state- at least in my area.
Brewman
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Thanks, that makes sense. Did your dealer inform you about getting a permit or did you already know. Our dealer never mentioned anything about it and our professional installer did all the work.
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In our area, there is only one city that cares if a permit is pulled or not. We tell people to leave it upto the electrician.
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Yeah, that is what it is here. I spoke to our retailer and he said that there is no permit needed in our area ;D. Not that it would have probably mattered but it is good to know!
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I did not need a buiding permit but did need a zoning permit to make sure we weren't too close to the property line - as well as an electrical permit.
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Thanks, that makes sense. Did your dealer inform you about getting a permit or did you already know. Our dealer never mentioned anything about it and our professional installer did all the work.
The dealer really didn't say much about it. My spa wiring was part of a larger basement wiring project, where I dropped a 100 amp line, installed a sub panel, several outlet and lighting circuits and the spa electric feed. So I did a lot of work researching everything beforehand.
I found www.homewiringandmore.com to be an invaluable resource for the entire project.
Brewman
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I'm in the process of getting mu permit. Hopefully it will be here this week. We live in a new subdivision so the inspectors are here everyday of the week and we would have been caught if didn't have a permit.
I also got the electritions estimate. He wants $500 to run the 220 line, hook-up the GFI and move one outdoor outlet. Didn't seem too bad.
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Hopefully, any professional would insist on a permit anyway. I suspect a pro working without a permit would risk his license. As for a homowner pulling a permit or not- act as you see fit. In doing my spa wiring, I found out how complicated it can be to do it correctly and safely. The relatively low fee I paid was worth it to me for knowing that it's done right.
Brewman
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Yes, but only because the building inspector insisted. It was a BIG PITA.
Regards,
Bill
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Yes, I pulled 2 permits - 1 for the 200 amp upgrade and since the tub is being put on a newly being built as we speak (type?) deck, 1 for the tub as well.
My dealer has it in her paperwork in bold letters that the warranty will be voided if not installed with a permit.
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Wow, there's still a lot of confusion regarding this topic. I've never heard about the warranty being voided though. That doesn't seem right. Can any of the dealers respond to this one? ???
My dealer has it in her paperwork in bold letters that the warranty will be voided if not installed with a permit.
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Gomboman,
I am typing this as I have the phrase now in front of me "PROOF OF PERMITS AND INSPECTION IS REQUIRED TO VALIDATE WARRANTIES". It is capitalized and underlined (not bolded as I said before).
It is on a paper titled 'Electrical set up of your spa". We both signed and dated it when I originally put a deposit on the spa back in Oct. I didn't think anything of it back then or even now for that matter. If a permit is pulled then all items will be according to code (hopefully) and not up to a person's whim.
Vinny
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Wow, there's still a lot of confusion regarding this topic. I've never heard about the warranty being voided though. That doesn't seem right. Can any of the dealers respond to this one? ???
You know, this get back to that warranty thread. What they give you in one sentence they take away with the next one. I know in our instruction, aluminum wire connected to the spa control bax will void the warranty and we emphasize that but come to think of it, I don't recall reading that in the "warranty content". I am going to go back and have a look. :-/
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I know that here in California if you elect to do the work without a permit and you leave the spa installed and you sell the home, you need to disclose that you did not get a permit for the work. This could affect the resale of your home and the buyer could stipulate in the closing that they want it inspected and / or permitted as a condition of the sale. Rather than dealing with all of these issues, I'd certainly recommend getting a permit.
I may be a little biased as I am a contractor myself, but it's not worth the hassles that may surface if you don't.
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Several cities in the Minneapolis/St.Paul area require a check when a home is listed for sale. This check looks to see that all work done on the homesite that needed a permit had a permit. The property must meet code to be listed for sale. Work done without a permit is assumed to be current, so current code must be met, even if the work met code 30 years ago when it was actually done.
Work done 30 years ago with a permit only needs to meed code from 30 years ago.
The homeowner needs to apply for all needed permits, at a fee double the current rate as a penalty. So in those areas, I'd get a permit for sure.
My city has no rule like that, but I got the inspections anyway- Spa and pool wiring is complicated, and knowing I did it the right way was well worth the $40 I spent on the permit. Heck, that $40 was the least expensive thing I had to do in regards to the spa purchase.
Brewman
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Here's some good information on this topic from another site. This is the stuff I was looking for. I have found out that each area has different regulations regarding Spa Permits. Not all areas require a spa permit, per say, but every county requires at least an electrical permit.
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Thread from Doc's site:
Assuming you do hire a properly trained and licensed electrician, just refer him to NFPA 70 (NEC), Article 680 and ask him to review that article before doing your job. Most electricians are good at general electrical work, but Article 680 has special provisions on hot tubs and electricians do not deal with its provisions on a daily basis. Some may be a bit arrogant and claim to know it all already, but a true professional will review such material.
I urge you to consider one other critical step. As part of your contract, you should require the electrician to pull a permit for the electrical work to the hot tub. You should also have the work inspected by the electrical inspector for your jurisdiction.
Finally, hire an electrician based on competence, not on his hourly rate. You will be putting your body into a device which is loaded with water and is powered by electricity. This is not the time to try to shave $50 off a job by hiring a clown instead of a pro.