Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: shane on June 04, 2005, 10:11:01 pm
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OK, I am confused. What is the best insulation out there? I live in Wisconsin and would expect the temps to be rather cold in the winter. One dealer bashes full foam, the other bashes "non full foam." What is the real answer?
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Insulation is heat retention. Search the subject in recent threads but if you're looking for a short cut, use your common sense. When you loose heat, your heater goes on, that uses electricity and that is what you pay for.
The manufacturer is faced with a decision, make a good spa and do good things to it EVEN if it COST more to make. Right away, he is at a handicap because his price is probably going to be higher.
Then there is the other choice that didn't spend the extra money to do the little extras that you have to do to keep the heat in and the salesperson tells you that you don't need it because he dosen't have it and why would you want it anyway because.....(create fear). :-/
Bottom line, your choice. The Top Leading manufacturers seem to be all solid foam filled, I guess the others are cheaper then because they didn't spend the money to do it to their spa, does that make their spa better, cheaper or more costly to retain heat? ???
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Sooo...that said, what is best? I am not looking to go "cheap." I sell commercial insurance and don't sell on price. Nor do I buy other things on price. I am willing to pay more for quality. Sooo...is full foam higher quality than non full foam? Dealers truly have me confused.
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How much heat will you loose and are you willing to pay extra to replace it. If money is not the issue, you can flip a coin. ::)
Pay more to get better and buy solid foam, ;)
or Pay more to replace lost heat, :-/
that leaves all of the choices open for you. ;D
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Shane, all the big name manufacturers (Hotspring, Sundance, Marquis, D-1, Caldera, etc.) insulate their spas differently but very efficiently. You don't have anything to worry about if you stay with a name brand company. Stay away from the Garage builders that don't use insulation....
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On a good quality spa, it doesn't make that much difference.
Brewman
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Insulation method (as long as it is insulated) should not be a deciding factor when purchasing a spa.
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My humble thoughts,
Both are good when leaving the factory from a quality spa maker. Problem comes in during installation and after repairs.
The Termopane style will work well IF the cabinet is properly resealed after the electric is hooked up. For it to work well there must be no air leakage into the shell just like your thermopane windows must not have leakage. The top bottom and all sides of the exterior must be insulated and sealed well.
Question I have is when you want to get air mixed into the water were does that air come from? If it's from inside the heated space then cold outside air must be allowed inside to makeup the lost air otherwise there would soon be a vacumn created.
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Bottom line, your choice. The Top Leading manufacturers seem to be all solid foam filled, I guess the others are cheaper then because they didn't spend the money to do it to their spa, does that make their spa better, cheaper or more costly to retain heat? ???
no kidding...well then, I'm off to Home Depot to buy foam in a can....and lots of it :o
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Heat rises,therefor,I would also invest in a high quality cover,1 that is very thick and will help retain the heat.
Here in Florida,it's not a big deal,as our winters barely see 50 degrees.
Stick with the big boys as far as manufacturers.....Hot-Springs,Caldera,Marquis,D-1,Sundance,etc.
WET-TEST !!!
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I agree those above if done right both work well.....However I have asked before and have never heard an answer as to why what many consider to be the leaders ...Hot Springs..Marquis....Sundance....etc...all are full foam there are a few other good brands that do use the thermo design but the majority of the most commonly respected leaders are full foam and to note.....It does cost more to build a full foam spa.
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Well, I'm certainly not a hot tub manufacturer, but here is my guess...
thermopane is harder to get right.
There are many styles of thermopane, so lumping them all as just thermopane is a bit of a misnomer. What they all have in common, though, is they try and make a heated air space to keep things warm/hot.
I would imagine, and speaking in very broad terms, keeping an area sealed with *air* (plus any venting needed for the motors, mind you) is just *harder* to keep consistent over the years than just blasting foam in the tub. Well, maybe not just blasting. Chas posted a detailed walk through the HS foaming method, which was quite an eye opener!
Granted, foam is probably more expensive to do right, but it is very hard to argue with its results from an insulation point of view. If you absolutely don't want to worry about insulation buy amajor brand full foam. If you want something more cutting edge and feel lucky, grab a thermopane.
Assuming quality manufacturers, neither will freeze your tub, and the cost difference per month in operation costs shouldn't be so large (one would hope) to make adifference.
-Ed
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Well, I'm certainly not a hot tub manufacturer, but here is my guess...
What they all have in common, though, is they try and make a heated air space to keep things warm/hot.
-Ed
Now the only problem I have with this statement and I am only saying it to clarify. 24 hours in a day and 4-8 needed for filtration. That leaves the majority of the day the heated air space is not working because you have no heat source except the water which will be drawn to the cooler side walls and heat loss will be high. If using and advertising the pump motor as the heat source the 20 hours a day it is not running will need to be taken into acount.
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Question I have is when you want to get air mixed into the water were does that air come from? If it's from inside the heated space then cold outside air must be allowed inside to makeup the lost air otherwise there would soon be a vacumn created.
It seems we have several unanswered questions. Do we create a vacuumn or does the air remain sealed when we draw "heated air" in through the jet venturri's or the air injector system. Is this "really" heated air or is it exterior ambient air that is not "heated air"? If we suck the heated air, we would have to be drawing a vacummn unless it is replaced with ambient air that must be reheated.
Yet again, "where does the heat come from? ???
Is it really the motors that do need and get air exchange, then again is that air "locked too", or could it be the plumbing also? If the water is at 102° in the spa, what is the temperature of the plumbing in the thermopane air space? Could this ALSO be a heat source to heat the air space? :-/???
Why then do manufacturers have a warranty exclusion for temperatures outside of the range of 34° and 104°? :-/ ???
Obviously, 32° is when ice begins to form? To me, that means if I lose power in the winter and something freezes, it is not covered by the warranty, even if power was lost because of a warranty failure?
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Why then do manufacturers have a warranty exclusion for temperatures outside of the range of 34° and 104°? :-/ ???
Obviously, 32° is when ice begins to form? To me, that means if I lose power in the winter and something freezes, it is not covered by the warranty, even if power was lost because of a warranty failure?
Whoa! What warranty excludes temps outside of 34 and 104? I'd never heard that and, if true, is a pretty powerful datapoint!
-Ed
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I'm going to finally end this age old debate and conclude that both thermal pane and full foam have advantages and disadvantages.
The only logical answer would be to buy a spa that incorporates both designs into one product that makes sense and addresses these issues...
FINALLY...the end to this debate!!! (http://www.hydropoolhottubs.com/index.html) ;D
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Steve,
Thank you so much you kind and Nobel Sir ....That surly ends all the debate and in a such a clear and unbiased manner. Your wisdom is priceless.... ::)
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Steve,
Thank you so much you kind and Nobel Sir ....That surly ends all the debate and in a such a clear and unbiased manner. Your wisdom is priceless.... ::)
I thought you might see it that way... ;D
Please send all of your enquiries on your new line of spas to replace your current line to:
srussell@hydropoolhottubs.com
I look forward to hearing from everyone. Please allow 4-6 weeks for the delivery of your new spa line as we are going to be experiencing heavier than normal production times based on this new revelation.
Glad to have you all on board! ;D
Steve
~Taking over the world of spas one post at a time~
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Come on Steve.....Hydropool don't have an exclusive on that!
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Come on Steve.....Hydropool don't have an exclusive on that!
Is humor that hard to get across a computer screen? ???
It was a joke Tman... ::)
Though there are others that have similar engineering, I'm not aware of the manufactureres that incorporate the full 6 stages of the Double Thermal Lock Heat Recovery System that we do?
I'd love to see a couple links if you have them handy Tman!
Steve
~Taking over the world of spas one post at a time and explaining my weird sense of humor while I'm doing it~ ;D
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Steve when you sold for Beachcomber you were a full foam advocate all the way. ::) :o ;D
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I have been taking another veiw now-a-days.
I know full foam works and is effective....
I think TP is good and has a good story....
I go with what I know works. ;) ;D
(uh oh...was that out loud? ???) Look out...Here it comes :o
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Steve when you sold for Beachcomber you were a full foam advocate all the way. ::) :o ;D
You betcha my dear. Till I knew better anyway! ;)
I'm just teasing here you guys. FF works and as the largest spa makers can atest, it has done for many years. I certainly don't agree with a single thermal pain style of insulating. I do like the fact that a spa can produce very high R factors while addressing the serviceability and not just exhausting the heat from the motors back outside and capturing that heat with a double thermal lock though.
Now, as I've always stated, motors only generate a great deal of heat on high speed but if we can utilize it, it can't be a bad thing!
The really neat part is that there's no real way to slam a double thermal lock system. It supports the plumbing, uses mostly 2lb foam for insulation, captures heat from the motors and is easily serviceable in the event of a leak.
We're not talking false claims of superiority or the ability to have 12 men stand on the cover, but instead a very sound approach to engineering an insulation system that reflects the changes in technology. Gotta love it! ;D
Steve
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We're not talking false claims of superiority or the ability to have 12 men stand on the cover, but instead a very sound approach to engineering an insulation system that reflects the changes in technology. Gotta love it! ;D
Steve
...But, can you have 12 men stand on your insulation? ;D
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That will be coming out in our '06 literature with glossy pictures. We're looking for big hairy guys to make the photoshoot and I figured you and Mendo would be perfect! ;D (Steve.......running very fast!) :o
Also we will have the technology to heat without a heater and covers will become a redundant part of spa design as they will no longer be required due to our superiority in insulation technology! :D ;)
Steve
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Steve...I knew it was a joke and I am very familiar with your sense of humor, Ive been hanging around enough! I just think it's ironic that I, before I bought my tub asked if there was any manufacturers that used both styles on the same shell and was kinda shuned, so I had to make my own utilizing both styles. But there seems to be a few that do it that I could not find before.
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I knew you knew. ;)
You were actually shuned for other reasons Tman! ;D
Steve
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That will be coming out in our '06 literature with glossy pictures. We're looking for big hairy guys to make the photoshoot and I figured you and Mendo would be perfect! ;D (Steve.......running very fast!) :o
Also we will have the technology to heat without a heater and covers will become a redundant part of spa design as they will no longer be required due to our superiority in insulation technology! :D ;)
Steve
Aren't you guys introducing the spa that actually puts electricity back into the grid? ;D
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Aren't you guys introducing the spa that actually puts electricity back into the grid? ;D
Hasn't that already been done by "the man"?
Brewman
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Hasn't that already been done by "the man"?
Brewman
I almost forgot, silly me :)
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Insulation VS Cost
Foam fill over the jets will cost more to fix if it ever leaks. Finding the leak is not as easy as it may appear. Foam also becomes waterlogged by leaking jets and hoses. Wet foam will need to be replaced.
If you live in the Magic Kingdom of Spas that Never Leak, foam fill is a good bet. Otherwise, get the most foam on the outside of the cabinet and as little as possible on the jets.
After all, heat rises and a good cover is probably the best argument you can make for heat loss.
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If a repair guy has to come to fix a leak and gets 80 bucks an hour. The leak takes 1 hour to fix and 1 hour travel. Whether it's foam filled or not it's going to cost 160 bucks. Because it takes him 1/2 hour or 45 minutes do you really think he's not going to charge the hour? Now if it takes 3 hours versus 2 it may be 80 bucks less but 90-95 percent of all leaks are in the equipment area on all spa's. No difference there on either method.
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Dunno if I buy that scenario Tman. What you've written could be true in some instances I guess. ???
Finding the leak could take over an hour in some cases with a FF spa, plus the time for repair and refoaming. Then add to that that the leak has been fixed and the tub is refilled just to find that it's leaking in 4 other areas. On a frozen spa, this can easily be the case. Though I agree with your suggestion to some extent, when it's multiple leaks, your suggestion of similar repair costs is not accurate.
Believe me...I've seen it. Doing a leak repair with the tub sitting on its side to dig out the area of foam suspected to be the problem and tipped back down only to find that the same procedure had to be performed multiple times in other areas.
It's why I never signed up to be a service tech. ;D
Steve
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Finding the leak is the easiest part. You use a moisture meter and probe the foam. It is like a plant meter I first used from the nursery, do your plants need watering? ??? There are serveral types of moisture meters but the one we use is 6 inches long and is used to probe things like a bale of hay to tell the moisture content in the ceter of the bale.
When you find moisture you simply take your "fluke" meter with a temperature probe and take the temperature of the moisture. If the temperature is 65° in one area and 101° in this area, guess where the leak is. 10 minutes
Then again, water makes itself easy to find. ;D
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Yep, seen that used before. It certainly can help reduce the time spent looking unless the majority of the foam is soaked and the tub's been sitting for a while.
Steve
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And of course the wire knife that cuts foam like butter and yet bounces off of PVC lines (if your quick) Makes removing foam kinda like carving turkey.
I never signed up to be a service tech either but seems a few people know I am a plumber and kinda handy, and they keep offering beer and stuff. ;D
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Dunno if I buy that scenario Tman. What you've written could be true in some instances I guess. ???
Finding the leak could take over an hour in some cases with a FF spa, plus the time for repair and refoaming. Then add to that that the leak has been fixed and the tub is refilled just to find that it's leaking in 4 other areas. On a frozen spa, this can easily be the case. Though I agree with your suggestion to some extent, when it's multiple leaks, your suggestion of similar repair costs is not accurate.
Believe me...I've seen it. Doing a leak repair with the tub sitting on its side to dig out the area of foam suspected to be the problem and tipped back down only to find that the same procedure had to be performed multiple times in other areas.
It's why I never signed up to be a service tech. ;D
Steve
I did sign up to be a service tech...over and over again!
I can tell you that I still prefer the stability, heat retention and sound dampening qualities of FF for myself.
As far as repair....Come take a look behind my store and see the ratio of FF to TP spas that I have to cut up and throw away. I get about the same amount of both in on trade, the problem with that is that there have been many more FF spas sold over the years.
This is such a no win argument...Very few people stick with their myopic and passionate veiw of insulation type when they change brands that they sell. ::)
The arguments are soo full of holes and futile....who cares if it takes an hour longer to do a tune up on my H2! I still prefer it to a Honda odyssey!
Here is a perfect example for you…We recently rebuilt 3 used spas all of the same vintage. One was a Jacuzzi with removable foam, one a Coleman with TP and one a HotSpring with FF.
The Jacuzzi had every rodent in the world living in it (oh yeah for you Arctic folks out there it DOES have a fiberglass base!) the pumps and electronics looked as if they had been in the sun for years even though they where under the cabinet, the cabinet fell apart when we attempted to fix it and there where leaks at almost every jet.
The Coleman had multiple freeze damage, 2 burned out pumps, a cabinet full of rodents (Again with a base). Leaks at many of the jet backs and had to be fumigated for spiders before we could even work on it.
The HotSpring had a cracked light lens, a bad circ pump, heater and had a manifold crack under the base of the spa where there was little insulation.
Of the three of these the HotSpring was the oldest and took the least amount of time to fix.
Of the three the HotSpring was by far the most solid over time and the plumbing seemed to be in the best shape.
This scenario is pretty common…We see similar things everyday. I firmly believe that the equipment and plumbing in the other two spas where subjected to way to much cabinet heat and vibration because of the lack of foam.
BTW, we rebuild 4 to 5 old spas a month…
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BTW, we rebuild 4 to 5 old spas a month…
Ever rebuild an Arctic spa?
Jc
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Stuart,
Just curious, how old was that Coleman and what model was it.
The reason I ask this is... I don't see the sense in comparing a repair time on any brand of older spa. Most spa manufacturers have improved and fine tuned their product. It's ambiguious to state that between three spas this one must be better because it took less time to fix...
Coleman started using flexible tubing like the kind used in agricultural sraying for the majority of the plumbing in their spas. The benifits are this plumbing is meant to move and there is no stress on it like a solid piece of PVC pipe.
I wish I was more proficient at posting because I have a great picture showing this.
BTW, I've been selling both FF and TP now for about a year and this is my story....
They cost about the same to heat in the fridgid N.D. winters.
They have no noticeable service call frequency differences pertaining to leaks.
The service time to find and fix a leak in full foam has been longer than in thermal pane.
I personally have never had any spiders, snakes, rodents, or bugs make a nest in my old or new spa cabinet.
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The Coleman had multiple freeze damage, 2 burned out pumps, a cabinet full of rodents (Again with a base). Leaks at many of the jet backs and had to be fumigated for spiders before we could even work on it.
Stu...
It stands to reason that any spa with two burned out pumps in a climate like Colorado would have freeze damage.
BTW since the Marquis dealer in Bismarck went belly up we've been taking care of his customers.
I could spew full foam horror stories of what we have in our shop and what it's taken to fix some rough ones, but what purpose would that serve Stuart.
I'm sure the consumers on this and other boards are saavy enough to realize that a dealer is never going to come out and tell the worst case service horror story they've had on the brand of spa they sell.
Buyer beware of any dealer that claims his spas never need service or never leak or never have freak electrical problems or never have a pressure switch stick or never have a surface acrylic issue creep up from time to time.
I've spent 11 years in this cut throat. combative, competitive, business. There are so many dealers that will say anything to get the sale and as soon as you start having problems they'll turn it around on you and make it sound as if you're the culprit. "Well it has to be your water chemistry because we've never had a pump go out in 2 months, or a spa leak in 4 years or a heater quit, yada yada yada."
I wish dealers would be more forthcomming and honest. Does a themal pane spa leak? some do... Does a full foam spa leak? some do....
Does anyone on this board truly without a shadow of a doubt, have any proof that one style leaks more than the other. NO!!!!!
And I'm not talking about some resurected old spa that your trying to rebuild to resell. Lets keep this in the here and now with todays spas because thats what the consumer is buying....
As I just stated we all have our service horror stories we could bend on this board to fit our own agenda. To the unsuspecting consumer they sound like proven facts touted by professionals...YEAH RIGHT....
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You guys are obviously not getting the point that I'm trying to make...This is the most important part of the whole argument.
This is such a no win argument...Very few people stick with their myopic and passionate view of insulation type when they change brands that they sell.
The arguments are soo full of holes and futile....who cares if it takes an hour longer to do a tune up on my H2! I still prefer it to a Honda odyssey!
No I have not ever rebuilt an older Arctic but then there really aren’t that many older Arctic’s in my area nor in the US.
Coleman is one of the few companies that do TP right! I have always said that and will always stand behind it. They even did a great job of improving their frame. My point to all of this is that you can substantiate an argument for either. These are real life things that I deal with all the time and so I share what I know.
This is my perspective and my opinion. I have to laugh though...Many people here have praised things that I say that fit there ability to sell their brand and then take offense at things that I question when it doesn't go hand in hand with what they sell.
I too could tell you horror stories of older Marquis and D1 but I seem to get fewer of those in now days. That doesn't mean that they are not out there but when people use something as silly as "it's easier to fix leaks on my brand" I find that I want to escalate things a bit.
There are many quality spas on both sides of the argument and here is the bottom line that I have stated time and time again….
A good dealer can make even a mediocre spa great to own with proper customer service!
SpaHappy,
you know I love you even when I ruffle you feathers! ;) ;D
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Spahappy, You are so fortunate to have a business to support your family and the families of your employees.
The purpose would be that all spas have inherent and developmental problems in the evolution process in this industry. Experience makes better.
I represent what I consider to be a very reputable manufacturer and I, have a SERVICE DEPARTMENT just like Lexus, Cadillac, Mercedes, and Rolls Royce.
No, consumers are not savvy enough to be aware of the truths, as we know them to be. And I, for one am willing to be honest enough to tell the worst of our horror stories. We had to live through the mandate of the EPA that changed the properties of glue that caused ALL industries that use glue to experience GLUE FAILURE in the middle 90’s. Fortunately for you that is about the time that you entered into this business. This was not a dealer issue nor was this a manufacturer issue, but it is unfortunately a product issue along with the counter top laminate issue and any other industry that lived through the EPA mandates to eliminate emissions into our atmosphere. Unfortunately it is the consumer who pays the ultimate price along with the dealer who is faulted because we SOLD the product to the consumer, who blames the Manufacturer who made the product, so it is ultimately his fault and that of the dealer, but it is the consumer who pays the price.
How fortunate it is that today spas are made differently. Today, our product is made with ribbed and pressure clamped fittings that have eliminated the concept of glue in the solid foam environment.
In the 80’s it was the horror stories of shell failure, then equipment deterioration in the early 90’s, then glue failure in the mid 90’s. today, I am glad to see the evolution of a well made product that NOT all manufacturers have the experience to make.
I am a dealer who has lived through this along with the crooks and the gypsies who have come in and out of this business ripping people off and leaving a trail of devastation and financial loss in their wake to both consumers and honest dealers who the consumers do not believe exist in this industry.
I for one will stand to be counted, I AM AN HONEST DEALER.
I am an insurance consultant advising claims adjusters about an industry that wants to profit from product failure at the cost of the insurance industry and consumers who don’t want it to be their loss. I have NEVER lied to a consumer and I have been in this business for 21 years. There are so many dealers who lack ethics that they only believe others, LIKE THEM are the only ones in this industry. NOT SO.
Well here I am spahappy, you’ve been here for a while, I don’t want to be the first one to tell you, under certain conditions THEY ALL LEAK. Yes this is a combative and competitive business. But, today’s spa is more bullet proof than the spas of the 80’s or the 90’s, and the spas made in 2002 are different than the spas made in 2005. Today they are better, more dependable, more efficient, more reliable, more beneficial, and more costly to buy.
I have NO AGENDA here on this board that is going to profit me one red cent so there is no point to fit any agenda here other than to help others with the TRUTH and to help them understand the differences. Consumers are their own worst enemy and they become SHARK BAIT for fast talking profit making marketers that have product to sell. They are trying to educate and inform themselves on this board to know more about what to look for and that is WHY we are here.
IS’NT IT? ??? ??? ???
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Stuart,
Just curious, how old was that Coleman and what model was it.
The reason I ask this is... I don't see the sense in comparing a repair time on any brand of older spa. Most spa manufacturers have improved and fine tuned their product. It's ambiguious to state that between three spas this one must be better because it took less time to fix...
I think because the used spa market is such a growing profit source, that time and money involved with repairing pre-owned spas is very relevant when discussing the durability of our vintage models. I see it as a plus for both scenarios:
1) Look how far Coleman has come in the past few years in building a spa that can stand the test of time, where as 10-12 years ago you would expect the damage that occured. (Especially in Co)
2) Hotspring has always built their spas the same way (Structurally) for the past 28 years, and that works well for them, so the lack of major damage is to be expected.
I have seen the same situations as Stuart down here in FL, not with the freezing, but rodents, spiders, plumbing failure, cabinet desinitigration, etc... Usually we see this on older Vita and Leisure Bay spas (They are more prevelent here in the south than Jacuzzi or Coleman). A spa that was built poorely 10-12 years ago does not mean that they don't build a reputable, time enduring product now. Things change, people change, we all change, everybody changes... (Rocky VI reference) And yes, I to can tell of some horror stories of vintage HS models. We all have them...
8)
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Wow! What a thread...that serves me right for wet testing spas and not worrying about the details...just yet.
When I first joined this forum, this was also my first question but in the form of FF vs TP.
I have found dealers quite passionate about this subject, and mostly related to the type of spa they were selling. I have found the same passion within this forum.
To really answer this question, search the web for thermodynamics and draw your own conclusions.
http://www.taftan.com/thermodynamics/
Is a good place to start. It covers heat transfers through a pipe, wall. Keep in mind that you can substitue "air as a fluid".
Personally, I found the foot damn at the bottom of the tub more important than anything else so far.
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Personally, I found the foot damn at the bottom of the tub more important than anything else so far.
What am I misunderstanding. What exactly is this and who makes it?
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think of your tub like a house. would you insulate the basement to keep the heat in . that is what all foam filled manufacturers are doing. look for a manufacturer that does not foam fill. insulation should be sprayed on the inside cabinet of the tub, thus creating an heat lock system. that way the heat from the motors will not escape outside. keeping the heat in will also warm your tub up really quick without using the heater. the ambient heat from the motors will create approx 140 degrees of heat. this inturn will heat theb tub. make sure you do not have any foam around the tub. this will save as ton on your electricity bill as well. if you have any further questions, email me.
raj
arctic spas
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So Arctic spas don't need heaters then?
What about the longevity of motors operating in such a hot environment?
Brewman
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Magic kingdom Spas HMMMM???No, I really believe it depends on climate as I lived in Phoenix AZ. no need for full foam there,but now I am in Denver You bet you had better use the full foam and the thick cover and maybe a foam floating cover in the winter.
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think of your tub like a house. would you insulate the basement to keep the heat in . that is what all foam filled manufacturers are doing. look for a manufacturer that does not foam fill. insulation should be sprayed on the inside cabinet of the tub, thus creating an heat lock system. that way the heat from the motors will not escape outside. keeping the heat in will also warm your tub up really quick without using the heater. the ambient heat from the motors will create approx 140 degrees of heat. this inturn will heat theb tub. make sure you do not have any foam around the tub. this will save as ton on your electricity bill as well. if you have any further questions, email me.
raj
arctic spas
ok I do admit...these AS guys really do pour it on :D
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Huh. Articspa that's odd. I just spoke with a friend's neighbor just 5 days ago. He owns an Artic Spa and he reports that after 1.5 years, his average electrical use for the spa is about $1 per day. (Central MA, outdoors, used 24/7/365)
That figure is right in line (and in some cases actually a bit higher ) with the rest of the spas, ff or not.
You come across like a used car saleman and you lose credibility with your hoiler than thou tone.
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Magic kingdom Spas HMMMM???No, I really believe it depends on climate as I lived in Phoenix AZ. no need for full foam there,but now I am in Denver You bet you had better use the full foam and the thick cover and maybe a foam floating cover in the winter.
No you do not need full foam in cold climates. I've sold Coleman spas in North Dakota for 11 years.
Our winters are much longer and colder than Colorado winters. Coleman spas use a thermol pane design called Thermolock and they've been using it for years.
In the coldest winter months ( we're talking 10 to 20 below without the windchill figured in ) Our spas run $25.00 to $30.00 a month and thats the facts Jack. 8) ;)
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Huh. Articspa that's odd. I just spoke with a friend's neighbor just 5 days ago. He owns an Artic Spa and he reports that after 1.5 years, his average electrical use for the spa is about $1 per day. (Central MA, outdoors, used 24/7/365)
That figure is right in line (and in some cases actually a bit higher ) with the rest of the spas, ff or not.
You come across like a used car saleman and you lose credibility with your hoiler than thou tone.
Is there an AS meeting or convention that just got out?
All of these historical consumer endorsements create such an interest in knowing if these guys are tought how to do this in a classroom setting and then all let loose with forum address's ::)
What do you think Fletch? ???
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thus creating an heat lock system. that way the heat from the motors will not escape outside. keeping the heat in will also warm your tub up really quick without using the heater. the ambient heat from the motors will create approx 140 degrees of heat. this inturn will heat theb tub.
raj
arctic spas
This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard...lets see if I understand this, when the motor is running 4-6 hours a day there's 140 degree heat surrounding it and no insulation on the shell so the water is absorbing this heat and getting to hot to sit in.
But, the rest of the day 18-20 hours when the motor is not running and it's nice and cool inside the cabinet the water is loosing it's heat fast because there is no insulation surrounding it and we all know air is a terrible insulator heat will travel right through it to the cabinet wall which has an R-Factor of? and the heater is kicking on and off constantly...wait...ah never mind!!! I guess I'll never understand the heat lock system.
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Is there an AS meeting or convention that just got out?
All of these historical consumer endorsements create such an interest in knowing if these guys are tought how to do this in a classroom setting and then all let loose with forum address's ::)
What do you think Fletch? ???
Well..I have read the marketing literature, and it's verbatim. Really, it's too bad, because they do have a good product.
In a few of the AS stores I've been to, they keep a spa running (pumps not on 24hrs, but spa on and filtration mode set to default) at 101-102 with the heater unpluged. Everytime I'm in the store picking up supplies, I pull the panel to see if it's plugged in and or not, and it always unplugged, yet the tub is sitting in the 101-102 range (heat from pumps?). Is this a scam? Or maybe all tubs can do this at ambient room temps? Is that a old industry trick?
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Is there an AS meeting or convention that just got out?
All of these historical consumer endorsements create such an interest in knowing if these guys are tought how to do this in a classroom setting and then all let loose with forum address's ::)
What do you think Fletch? ???
Once again J_McD. as I mentioned in another thread,once agian, I'm a bit confused by your comment. Are you suggesting I'm endorisng Artic Spas since you qoted me?
Quite the opposite. "Articspa" made a comment to avoid FF and said the Artic Spa method would result in greater heat savings.
I was trying to contribute the conversation by letting others know i speficially spoke to an artic spa owner and his electrial bill was not significantly lower than what other ff tub owners are reporting. It wans't an endorsement, in fact , quite the opposite. I appologize if my comment wasn't clear, or if I took your quoteing of me wrong.
???
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The idea of running a spa without the benefit of a heater makes for a good demonstration in a showroom, but not in the real world.
A HotSpring spa - full foam for those of you who don't know - will get up to and stay at the upper 90's with the heater disconnected. I see it all the time. And it can happen in cold weather too - I don't see that all the time, but I have talked to dealers and owners alike who have done it.
The little 85 watt circulation pump - which runs 24 hours - will heat the spa from tap water in about three days, and keep it there. Back when HotSpring used a standard household spotlight bulb you could even overheat the spa simply by leaving the light on.
So what's the point? I want a spa that gets to the temp quickly, and stays there, and I don't want to have to run any large pumps to do it. If full foam can keep in enough heat to raise the temp from the small trickle of heat that a circ pump and/or a light bulb puts out, I would say it's a pretty good way to insulate a tub.
And as Roger has repeatedly asked, "what about the 18 to 20 hours a day when you don't want to have the big pumps running?" He has also pointed out that a TP tub with large pumps suffocating in a hot cabinet tends to go up in temperature if you run the jets or filtration system too long. What kind of 'feature' is that?
I go get into my tub, turn on the jets and in a while the thing is uncomfortably warm so I have to either turn the jets off and put up with it being above my desired temp, or get out?
And can we get rid of the "think of your house as a tub" idea? They are not the same at all. One is full of air and one is full of water, and that is a huge difference. One is kept at 70 and one at 101. Those extra 30 degrees make a huge difference as well. Fill your house with water, and see how long it will stay at 101 if all four sides are not insultated.
The argument that "air is much easier to heat" is half of a truth. The other half is, "and it gives up that heat much easier than water does, too." So you can expect a TP tub to vary in temperature if it is dependant upon an air space for insulation.
And the "why do you insulate the attic and not the basement" statement shows a basic fundamental lack of understanding of physical law: heat goes in any direction from hot to cold. Hot air rises, but that is not the same as heat rising. Heat can and will go up, down or sideways. Go stand barefoot in a nicely insulated ice rink some time.
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The idea of running a spa without the benefit of a heater makes for a good demonstration in a showroom, but not in the real world.
A HotSpring spa - full foam for those of you who don't know - will get up to and stay at the upper 90's with the heater disconnected. I see it all the time. And it can happen in cold weather too - I don't see that all the time, but I have talked to dealers and owners alike who have done it.
The little 85 watt circulation pump - which runs 24 hours - will heat the spa from tap water in about three days, and keep it there. Back when HotSpring used a standard household spotlight bulb you could even overheat the spa simply by leaving the light on.
So what's the point? I want a spa that gets to the temp quickly, and stays there, and I don't want to have to run any large pumps to do it. If full foam can keep in enough heat to raise the temp from the small trickle of heat that a circ pump and/or a light bulb puts out, I would say it's a pretty good way to insulate a tub.
And as Roger has repeatedly asked, "what about the 18 to 20 hours a day when you don't want to have the big pumps running?" He has also pointed out that a TP tub with large pumps suffocating in a hot cabinet tends to go up in temperature if you run the jets or filtration system too long. What kind of 'feature' is that?
I go get into my tub, turn on the jets and in a while the thing is uncomfortably warm so I have to either turn the jets off and put up with it being above my desired temp, or get out?
And can we get rid of the "think of your house as a tub" idea? They are not the same at all. One is full of air and one is full of water, and that is a huge difference. One is kept at 70 and one at 101. Those extra 30 degrees make a huge difference as well. Fill your house with water, and see how long it will stay at 101 if all four sides are not insultated.
The argument that "air is much easier to heat" is half of a truth. The other half is, "and it gives up that heat much easier than water does, too." So you can expect a TP tub to vary in temperature if it is dependant upon an air space for insulation.
And the "why do you insulate the attic and not the basement" statement shows a basic fundamental lack of understanding of physical law: heat goes in any direction from hot to cold. Hot air rises, but that is not the same as heat rising. Heat can and will go up, down or sideways. Go stand barefoot in a nicely insulated ice rink some time.
To sum this up, Chas is just smarter than us.
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One more point:
Coleman spas do not rely upon the thermal pane system to retain heat. They put a good foam layer on the back of the shell, and that is what keeps in the majority of the heat. The plumbing and pumps are exposed inside the cabinet, and the cabinet is well insulated on the bottom and the outside walls with a foam board system which has a higher R value than sprayed-on foam. That means that the heat that is lost through the plumbing and equipment goes into an insulated space and stays there. And when the pumps are running, a small amount of heat can be absorbed back through the plumbing. It's a mixture of full foam and tp, and it works well from what I have heard.
On their web site they admit it, but they still use the name "Heatlock IV" and the dealers are still selling it as some novel idea. Read it yourself! Here's an excerpt from their web site:
"Inside we use a Pre-Foam Construction process, applying a thick layer of closed-cell, high-density foam insulation to the underside of the spa shell before the plumbing is installed. This ensures a uniform thermal barrier to keep heat in the spa, while strengthening the shell. Additional high-density foam insulation is applied to the sealed ABS pan, which locks in the frame and prohibits heat loss through the floor. Finally, we line all four sides, plus the floor, with patented Reflectix� insulation to create an infrared thermal barrier within the interior air space."
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To sum this up, Chas is just smarter than us.
Better-looking too? Well, OK, I'll stick with smarter.
::) ::) ::)
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And humble? Wow. You should see how humble.
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Is this Coleman Spa "Thermo Lock " cabinet totally sealed? Before Maxx took over it was not and all of the supposed heat trapped in the cabinet was exhausted out of the top where the style line meets the cabinet there was a gap.If ther was a constant heat source the "Thermo Lock" would work.However on those old Coleman Spas I was selling in the winter my 107 cabinet was very cold inside and it only got down to 30 degrees. :D
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The Heatlock system would have me concerned about operating a pump in a hotter envorement. To me, it doens't sound like an ideal enviroment for a couple of pumps to be living in and doing all the work.
What one might save in heat ing costs by capturing the pump's heat might be significantly offset by replacing a pump due to premature failure (?)
Is there any data on pump failures in FF vs Heatlock style tubs? Do these heatlock style tubs offer a longer or shorter warrenty? ...
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The heatlock actually does work better in the extreme heat of Az. because most of the heat generated from the sun is reflected away from the cabinet.In fullfoam the heat is trapped in a small compartment where there is no release,vented cabinets don't work in this condition, as the heat from the sun increases the temp.too much.In fact CalSpas cabinet in Phoenix is an arctic pak style insulation.Though we do still use the foam on the plumbing.As an insulator,sound supressor and stabilation for the water lines.Much like coleman Spas use to do.Other spa manufacturers such as L.A Spas and some small ones are finding that their spas do better in an arctic pak insulation in extreme heat rather than full foam.
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The heatlock actually does work better in the extreme heat of Az. because most of the heat generated from the sun is reflected away from the cabinet.In fullfoam the heat is trapped in a small compartment where there is no release,vented cabinets don't work in this condition, as the heat from the sun increases the temp.too much.In fact CalSpas cabinet in Phoenix is an arctic pak style insulation.Though we do still use the foam on the plumbing.As an insulator,sound supressor and stabilation for the water lines.Much like coleman Spas use to do.Other spa manufacturers such as L.A Spas and some small ones are finding that their spas do better in an arctic pak insulation in extreme heat rather than full foam.
Interesting. Being in N.E "Extreme Heat" isn't too much of a concern. ( I wish it was). Any data on "Extreme Cold"? Sitting in 2ft of snow, 5 degrees, outside, for 3-5 months? just as effective? just as stable? Perhaps FF is better for extreme cold, and Therma lock better for warmer climate?
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Exactly!!!! ;)
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Is this Coleman Spa "Thermo Lock " cabinet totally sealed? Before Maxx took over it was not and all of the supposed heat trapped in the cabinet was exhausted out of the top where the style line meets the cabinet there was a gap.If ther was a constant heat source the "Thermo Lock" would work.However on those old Coleman Spas I was selling in the winter my 107 cabinet was very cold inside and it only got down to 30 degrees. :D
OK spaman I'm having a slow day because it's finally quit raining and half the town has gone to the lake so I'll play...
Since you sold Coleman spas I want you to descibe to me what the wood panel on that 107 consisted of.
What was it made of?
How thick was it?
How did it fasten to the tub?
How did you keep track of the temperature?
If you were selling Colemans why did you have a 107 and not a Horizon?
You must be smoking something if your going to tell me that Coleman Spas had big gaps in the cabinets. I had a 1994 411 for ten years in my backyard and the cabinet was sealed. I've got a 96 447 out in my shop right now and guess what...The cabinet is sealed.
Spaman go spew your untruths somewhere else because I'll be here to tell the real strory.
Spahappy
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The Heatlock system would have me concerned about operating a pump in a hotter envorement. To me, it doens't sound like an ideal enviroment for a couple of pumps to be living in and doing all the work.
What one might save in heat ing costs by capturing the pump's heat might be significantly offset by replacing a pump due to premature failure (?)
Is there any data on pump failures in FF vs Heatlock style tubs? Do these heatlock style tubs offer a longer or shorter warrenty? ...
Coleman has five years on the pump in the 400 and 700 and 3 on the 100 series.
The pumps are 56 frame which is a more industrial strengh cooler running pump.
Coleman does not have higher rates of pump failure than full foam spas.
Think about it...if Coleman spas experienced all the problems that you full foam freaks claim they do because of the thermol pane technology they have used since the 80's, why pray tell would they continue to manufacture spas the way they do.
This is such a moronic argument.... >:(
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The heatlock actually does work better in the extreme heat of Az. because most of the heat generated from the sun is reflected away from the cabinet.In fullfoam the heat is trapped in a small compartment where there is no release,vented cabinets don't work in this condition, as the heat from the sun increases the temp.too much.In fact CalSpas cabinet in Phoenix is an arctic pak style insulation.Though we do still use the foam on the plumbing.As an insulator,sound supressor and stabilation for the water lines.Much like coleman Spas use to do.Other spa manufacturers such as L.A Spas and some small ones are finding that their spas do better in an arctic pak insulation in extreme heat rather than full foam.
This is perhaps the most ignorant statement you've made so far spaman.
You just contradicted your statement about Coleman spa cabinets not being fulling sealed.
Now they work better in the extreme desert heat than full foam because, according to you, Coleman cabinets are not vented.
I'm sorry but you're starting to sound just like a Cal Spa slaesman to me!!!!
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ok the cabinet was fiberboard laminated with a marine grade glue to the redwood don't remamber the thickness.The gap was between the top fo the panel and the lip of the acrylic.I owned a Coleman 107 that I won in a contest,I can tell you I lived in Phoenix and visited the factory 100's of times and was there when the guy lost his leg in an accident involving a forklift and a pallet of acrylic our sales rep at the time was Carl shores,He was also there and there was definately heat loss in the top.Or you going to tell me that the top was totally sealed?If you think this you are wrong. :D I sold 100o's of the spas.
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O yeah ,BTW they don't make the spas the same way any longer,before the wood that was used to attacht the frame to the shell was a 8" strip of pine fiberglassed inside the lip, between these gaps is where the heat loss was,and the thermo lock works better in the heat as the side panels reflected the heat out.The construction is exactly the same way on that 477 you told about.by your theory the cabinet would be air tight.The truth is when Maxx took over Coleman went to h#@$ :-/.Ask anyone that was there in that time frame.
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I'm going to tell you you've been sniffing too much of something.
If your 107 had a gap than the panel was cut wrong. I've sold and still sell Coleman all the way back to 1994.
You failed to descibe a very key part of what that panel should have had with it and that is a 1" styro board that made the cabinet seal.
Now perhaps being you lived in the valley, somewhere between factory and dealer someone decided to take that off so the cabinet would not be totally sealed and would allow for some sort of air movement in the extreme heat.
I'm not trying to be rude here but I think my 11 years of selling thermol lock in the extreme fridgid North Dakota winters is a better test of the efficiency of themol lock, than you selling in Azizona winters wouldn't you agree.
Just curious, how many Coleman dealers were in the Phoenix area.
In a previous post you stated you had an ax to grind with one brand of spa. Let me guess, could it be Coleman.
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;DSpaman,
FYI Coleman has never made a 477 ;D ;D
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the styro foam does not go up to the top inside of the cabinet.maybe you should take yours off and look.There was only one dealer in phoenix at that time it was AZ. Gazebos origionally owned by SR. Crouch He went bk, then ,JR crouch took over he then went BK now his younger bro reopened it as Family time spas,the old manreopened called the bbq factory.The axe I grind is not with Coleman.Take a photo of the spa inside the upper lip of the spa.The panel does not go all the way up.There was definately a gap there Ask SD LEIk#@.He will tell you.
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I'm going to try to make this simple for you. I'll go slow so you can keep up.
Tell me truthfully spaman do you beleve that it gets very cold in North Dakota in the winter?
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Interesting exchange... ;D Not that I want any part of this...
I did notice the words air tight and fully sealed used and I was curious if Coleman sells their spas while describing it with these words? ???
Just a question...I haven't been sniffing anything... ;D
Steve
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please forgive me I am mistaken the spectrum and the horizon series spas had the top rail lip.It was along time ago for me to remember all of the model numbers.By the way the spectrum 255 was my favorite model and was a real money loser for Coleman when they quit making it.The Cal. coop series is the only series that had this gap in the top.I had to dig out some old boxes,but I found them.I am not here to argue you anything or prove a point I just know we had cold cabinets on the tests I did with Carl at the factory in '97.This is not in doubt but more for knowledge is that cabinet fully sealed? ???
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Look if Coleman spas had that type of gap a gap not only would they be extremly expensive to run they would also be noisy.
You know very well that Coleman spas are very quiet.
In the coldest months up here My Coleman runs between $25.00 to $30.00 a month to run.
In fact I had a customer put an in car 900 watt heator inside the cabinet of a spa because the heator went out during a blizand and we could not get out to their farm. This kept that spa from freezing for four days and the water temp was still above 50 when we were able to get out there.
As far as your comment about Maax. What are you refering to? I think Coleman is making a better product since Maax came on board. It's comments like that that make me highly doubt your motives.
Do you know that during the 90's we had a used car dealer that sold Cal spas in my area.
They were junk!
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That is very possible,but I was very dissapointed when the Maxx took over and immediately started changing the product less jets here ,less therapy coverage there,honestly I would still buy an old Coleman they were high quality,and maybe still are.The Coleman rewards banquets sure went down in attendance one year we were in Fla. celebrating a great year picking up our awards and the next we were in phoenix with less than half of the dealers. ;)I don't doudt the quality of Coleman Spas I do doubt the quality compared to their spas back then.They cut a lot of costs in building the new spas the very next year.Still they are high end spa just not what they use to be I loved my 107.I never had any problems at all.Though there were definately some drops in cabinet temps.
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Spaman I should just let you dig your own grave because everytime you post something you contradict your previous post.
As for your statement regarding the new Colemans having less therapy...
My 1994 411 (which I owned for 10 years and I loved BTW) was the top of the Coleman line at that time. This spa had very few changes done to it and it was our number 1 seller for many years. I think it had 22 jets, it had two 2HP 2 speed pumps and we had many happy years with it. I sold it to my neighbor last Feb 04 and purchased a 2004 706. The 706 is now the top of the Coleman line ( What a awesome spa ). It has 53 jets and three 2.5 HP 2 speed pumps. How can you say that MAAX took away the therapy. There is no way that you know anywhere near what you claim to know about Coleman spas with the ridiculus statements you've made.
I can't beleve I'm engaging in this bantor when with every post you post, your credibility is destroyed. In some sick way I'm drawn back into it like a moth to a flame. I think I just can't beleve the level of BS that you're capable of. I wish my co-worker hadn't taken the afternoon off because she would certainly enjoy this.
I'm headed to the lake for the weekend and will have no internet or phones. So I'm hoping someone else will continue to expose your slander.
Spaman, posters and dealers on this site come and go, and some stay around and offer their advice and knowlege freely. Even though they may own or sell another brand and have different opinions than myself, I have tremendous respect for them.
Spaman at this point and because of your false statements and inconsistant posts, you would have a long way to go to earn my respect :-/ >:(
When I said that the Cal spas sold up here in the 90's were junk I meant it. And for all of you who know my posting style you know that is by far the most negative thing that I've ever said about any other brand of spa. And I'm not retracting it.
Seems like Cal Spa dealerships come and go, but Cal Spa salesmen stay the same ;)
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Interesting exchange... ;D Not that I want any part of this...
I did notice the words air tight and fully sealed used and I was curious if Coleman sells their spas while describing it with these words? ???
Just a question...I haven't been sniffing anything... ;D
Steve
Steve those were my words and Coleman uses words that are much more impressive and harder for me to spell....
Since spaman has taken just about all the fight out of this little norwegian. I'm off the the lake.
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Have a wonderful time! ;)
Steve
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I'm headed to the lake for the weekend and will have no internet or phones. So I'm hoping someone else will continue to expose your slander.
;)
Oh sure! Try and tag us in and then trot off for fun in the sun after poking the hive and getting the hornets riled!
I swear that I'm going surpize you one day and show up for that fishing trip weekend!