Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Gomboman on June 07, 2005, 01:00:12 am
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I've never seen an Artic spa before. I've heard the name mentioned here lately so I went to their website. The Self Supporting Hull concept seems interesting. They claim you don't need a special foundation. Just set it down and go. This is assuming you have a level location etc. I wonder if it works? From their website below:
Self Supporting Hull
Already renowned for our sturdy wood floor, standard on every Arctic Spa, our engineers decided to raise the bar yet again by developing the Forever Floor®. Composed of hand-rolled fiberglass composites, this floor is impervious to moisture, pests, and time. It completely eliminates the need for foundation materials like concrete, decking, or blocks! Just set it on the ground, hook it up, fill and use...installation has never been easier and your floor will last forever in any conditions. In addition, your portable spa is now truly portable. If you move spa locations in your yard or if you move across town, the foundation comes with you.
http://
http://www.goarctic.com/index.php?dest=main&lang=en&option=show_content&show=41
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...The Self Supporting Hull concept seems interesting. They claim you don't need a special foundation. Just set it down and go. This is assuming you have a level location etc. I wonder if it works?
If you search back aways you will find at least a couple of discussions about this. My recollection is that the people with actual experience with Arctic swear the "Forever floor" works just as described, while most everyone else is skeptical. I'd think you would have to be very comfortable with their warranty before trying it.
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Even if the spa is built that way, I just don't like the idea of not putting some kind of foundation down.
Brewman
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I have the forever floor, but I've still placed my tub as though it wasn't there (i.e. proper/level site). Just makes sense in the long run IMO. I wonder who would spend all that $$ and not prepare a proper spot for it to sit on. I hope to have my tub last a long, long time so I will try to do everything I can to encourage this.
I do like the way the floor provides a barrier between inside and outside of the tub itself though.
Jc
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I agree. I have ordered my arctic with the forever floor but just had the cement put down today. I think you should still takes the steps to ensure that your tub sits on a good base.
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One of the main purposes of a foundation for your hot tub is to *keep it level* over time.
Drop a ton of weight on untamped, unprepared ground, let it sit there through some freeze/thaw cycles and some monsoon rains and after a few years you might not be very level anymore. Add to it uncle Earl, who weighs 300lbs likes the seat on the left and aunt Edna, who weight 50 pounds, uses the seat on the right. 8)
Slabs and decks and patios all have drainage underneath of them which is meant to keep the surface level for decades to come.
If level wasn't an issue, buy *any* hot tub, outline a place in your back yard, drop some cheap spa pads or, frankly, plastic sheeting, down and plop the tub on it.
I imagine the reason hot tub manufacturers don't warrant unprepared surfaces isn't an industry secret conspiracy theory against incompetant base construction. I imagine it is because if frost heave or sudden settling causes your enormously heavy, filled-to-the-brim tub to suddenly shift you could break something.
Anyway, that's always what I've always believed.
And this, above all else, is the problem I have with the Arctic sales pitches: Common sense solutions to the wrong problems. The forever floor does not guarantee your tub will stay level (and note that little exception in the warranty). A proper foundation does.
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isn't half the reason for a "foundation" to provide a level surface? i have seen postings here debating decking vs. peagravel, or sand, or concrete pad, etc..... all these have one thing in common. level foundation.
having a sealed "impervious" bottom is great. but if you drop it in your yard, isn't it likely to settle crooked?? my first tub came with the house in 1990. it was laid on top of 4-5 inches of sand, and a deck built around it, so the tub was basically recessed into the deck, with about 18" showing. it had been in for 4 years when i bought the house. due to settling issues, one side was almost 5" higher than the other. i wound up have to dismantle over half the deck in order to lift up and move the tub so i could dig out and pour a slab for it to sit on. what a pain in the %#@ that was!
i just bought a caldera a few months ago, and i built a mini deck for it to sit on, framed on "dek bloks". i am not pushing concrete or decking as i have done both.
i am agreeing with others here that you cant bring a tub home, find a level spot, and plop it on your lawn though......
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I I have an Arctic Spa with a Forever Floor and the floor is warped! The entire tub is sitting on four or five contacts, and the rest of the floor is warped up and not making contact. This obviously caused me great concern, so I called the dealership, and they sent out a tech the next day. He had a look and wasn't worried (I got that in writing). He actually mentioned that all FF systems have some warp in them (inherent to the process).
Obviously a warped spa floor, is not a good thing, but Arctic Spa has some confidence in their product. IMO...that's a strong floor and shell to take that pressure.
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And this, above all else, is the problem I have with the Arctic sales pitches: Common sense solutions to the wrong problems. The forever floor does not guarantee your tub will stay level (and note that little exception in the warranty). A proper foundation does.
I am not aware of any sales pitch used that states the forever floor will keep a spa level. It does however, keep the elements out and is not susceptible to rot. It still requires a level surface. There are no exceptions in our warranty for not putting your spa on a concrete slab or deck.
James Keirstead
Arctic Spas
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James,
Thanks for that input! I do think that you need to share this with your dealers though as I know of two in my area that sell under the pretense that you don't need a base of any kind....This lends to thought that customers believe you don't need to level.
It would be interesting to actually read the warranty however your one of the few manufactures that doesn't seem to share that. Any reason why you don't have it on your website like some of the larger manufactures? ???
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There are no exceptions in our warranty for not putting your spa on a concrete slab or deck.
James Keirstead
Arctic Spas
The original poster quoted the following, presumably, from the arctic web site:
"It completely eliminates the need for foundation materials like concrete, decking, or blocks!"
The above quote from (presumably) the website, and your quote above certainly seem to be saying two different things.
Back to the sales pitch rant... the web site sales pitch is implying something that is not true and/or is not covered under warranty and/or is trying to demonstrate advantage over other products where one does not, in essence, exist.
I am not saying the forever floor is a bad idea. I am sure it is satisfcatory just as most floor systems on most tubs are satisfactory. I will even go so far as to say in certain installation conditions the forever floor may have an advantage over other floors based on its composition.
None of that addresses the pattern of customer confusion. Name only your true strengths, acknowledge your weaknesses, and sell hot tubs. Those three things ain't mutually exclusive!
-Ed
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The original poster quoted the following, presumably, from the arctic web site:
"It completely eliminates the need for foundation materials like concrete, decking, or blocks!"
The above quote from (presumably) the website, and your quote above certainly seem to be saying two different things.
Sorry Ed, I'm usually with you on most topics, and I share your concern with Arctic's marketing hyperbole, but ...
I think that James is saying that Arctic does not deny warranty claims based on where the spa was placed. That backs up the marketing of the "Forever Floor.
I agree with you and the others that opine that it is a bad idea to place a spa on an unprepared site, but it appears that Arctic is confident enough in their system, that they aren't concerned. More power to them.
Regards,
Cal
p.s. James, you seem like a reasonable man, and your posts often have been helpful in clarifying issues raised by your marketing and sales people. Perhaps if they could tone it down to your level, this forum could focus on your products, not your claims.
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I I have an Arctic Spa with a Forever Floor and the floor is warped! The entire tub is sitting on four or five contacts, and the rest of the floor is warped up and not making contact. ...a tech mentioned that all FF systems have some warp in them (inherent to the process)...
Perhaps it is better to set these on a soft surface so it can fill the voids, and avoid the risk of a "rocking tub" :o::);D
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I think that James is saying that Arctic does not deny warranty claims based on where the spa was placed. That backs up the marketing of the "Forever Floor.
Oh! :-[ James, if that is the case, I do apologize.
When James said:
There are no exceptions in our warranty for not putting your spa on a concrete slab or deck.
I may have misread the double negative. Exception is a bit of a baffling word, you can have good exceptions and bad exceptions! ;D
I took it as "there are no (good) exceptions in our warranty that cover you if you don't put your tub on a concrete slab or deck".
Perhaps he meant: "There are no (bad) exceptions in our warranty that will NOT cover you if you put your tub on something other than a concrete slab or deck".
If he meant the former, well, then, thpt. If he meant the latter, I misread and apologize! Sorry!!
Maybe let's simplify it to a yes/no question:
If I set my arctic tub on the lawn is it covered under warranty, assuming it stays level?
We'll leave the "will the lawn stay level" debate for another set of posts! 8)
-Ed
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Let's simplify this....James do you have a place on the internet that we can veiw the warrenty in detail like we can with most reputable manufactures?
That would settle things.
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I have sold 7 or 8 brands of spas including Arctic Spas and their floor is superior to virtually every one I have seen. From NO floor to stapled ABS sheeting to polyethylene to wood to molded plastic. The Arctic floor is stamped fiberglass resin which is the strongest I have seen to date.
That being said, ALL of these floors will warp if placed on uneven ground. Using fiberglass backing, as Arctic does, in your spa shell will greatly reduce the uneven stresses from cracking your shell.
Out of the 1000 or so Arctics that I have seen go out the door to customers, we have not had a single issue of spas cracking due to ground movement. If any shell failure have occured over the years from delamination or fiberglass issues, Arctic has happily replaced them for us.
Pour concrete if you like...if it heaves or settles, you will have a uniformly unlevel surface with crooked water and you CAN'T shim a spa without warping it unless you rebuild a shim to cover the entire spa bottom.
The best solution is to level out a piece of undisturbed soil (remove the dirt until it is level) As long as it is not fresh backfill, it will not settle too much. If you would like to have a gravel base, do not use washed pea gravel as it moves upon install (spa pushes it around as we are placing it).
If it moves over the years, drain the spa and relevel the ground.
Simple and a lot cheaper than a concrete pad.
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Personaly....and I say this as opinion only. How many floor problems do the other brands have? It's kinda like the new frame under the ford truck, it's the strongest ever according to there advertising. The frame is the last thing that ever breaks or rots and will outlast the entire truck and they are not a problem on any other truck brand, yet somehow they market a better one than the rest! And it sells trucks!!
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If it moves over the years, drain the spa and relevel the ground.
Simple and a lot cheaper than a concrete pad.
Only part I'd disagree with. Having built a concrete pad, I'd rather do it once and be done with it then have to drain the spa, pick it up, move it someplace, level, then pick the spa up and put it back.
;)
I'm sure it is cheaper though, our 8'x9' pad cost us about $400-$500 to do "ourselves", buta pro tamper is only$100 a day rental from the local Home Depot.
-Ed
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I have sold 7 or 8 brands of spas including Arctic Spas and their floor is superior to virtually every one I have seen. From NO floor to stapled ABS sheeting to polyethylene to wood to molded plastic. The Arctic floor is stamped fiberglass resin which is the strongest I have seen to date.
That being said, ALL of these floors will warp if placed on uneven ground. Using fiberglass backing, as Arctic does, in your spa shell will greatly reduce the uneven stresses from cracking your shell.
Out of the 1000 or so Arctics that I have seen go out the door to customers, we have not had a single issue of spas cracking due to ground movement. If any shell failure have occured over the years from delamination or fiberglass issues, Arctic has happily replaced them for us.
Pour concrete if you like...if it heaves or settles, you will have a uniformly unlevel surface with crooked water and you CAN'T shim a spa without warping it unless you rebuild a shim to cover the entire spa bottom.
The best solution is to level out a piece of undisturbed soil (remove the dirt until it is level) As long as it is not fresh backfill, it will not settle too much. If you would like to have a gravel base, do not use washed pea gravel as it moves upon install (spa pushes it around as we are placing it).
If it moves over the years, drain the spa and relevel the ground.
Simple and a lot cheaper than a concrete pad.
Interesting input, in 21 years I seem to have been blessed with good manufacturers that I have never needed to change out a spa because of delamination or the shell cracking. It is nice to know that artic can happily do this for you when needed. :o
I see you are new to the board and that you have sold 7 or 8 other brands but yet you have sold over 1,000 artics to customers. That is a lot. How many years did this take? ???
You seem to recommend the short cut of using the artic base without the traditional concept of a base to place it on. With that much money invested would it not be worth proper preparation for long time placement without risking the potential of damage or having to "re-level" it again in the future? ???
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I agree with J._McD....hottubbrad you must have been in the industry forever! You must also work for one of the largest dealerships in the US...?
You see, we state over and over that it's not the Arctic product we have a problem with as much as some of the outlandish claims made by people selling it....There is a common theme across the country with Arctic salespeople pushing the envelope on truth here.
The point that J. made about you selling 1000's of Arctic’s in addition to many other brands is questionable only because we see posters come on for arctic all the time, talk a big talk and then fade out when challenged. There seems to be more claims, less credible supporting documentation and more hostility coming from Arctic people across all of the forums than most brands. Although James has been an asset here to getting more straight- talk in the last several months!
Maybe it would help to have you do like many of us have and give us a bit of background as to who and where you are?
You might also be able to answer the question I asked of James K a couple of times....Is there a place to see your warranty on line like most of the reputable brands have done? If not why? If you’re proud of the warranty and have nothing to hide, post it! That can only help with the company's credibility...
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he said of the 1000 or so he has seen go out the door...he didn't say anything about selling 1000's of spas? Who's stretching the truth here?
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...and considering that many dealerships carry more than one brand of spa, I don't find these numbers misleading. And also considering that there appears to be a high turnover of dealers and product within the industry, it is compleletly reasonable to have sold seven or eight or what ever ....
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he said of the 1000 or so he has seen go out the door...he didn't say anything about selling 1000's of spas? Who's stretching the truth here?
“I have sold 7 or 8 brands of spas including Arctic Spas and their floor is superior to virtually every one I have seen…….The Arctic floor is stamped fiberglass resin which is the strongest I have seen to date.…..Out of the 1000 or so Arctics that I have seen go out the door to customers, we have not had a single issue of spas cracking due to ground movement. If any shell failure have occured over the years from delamination or fiberglass issues, Arctic has happily replaced them for us.”
Fletch, I read it different and it seems to me he has seen over 1000 artic spas go out the door. I only asked how many years did it take him to see 1000 go out the door, No response. Do you see a pattern?
I seem to have stepped on your sensitivity here, as you think I am “out to lunch” and you don’t seem to think kindly of the dealers on the forum. Well, maybe we are tired of naïve shopping consumers, hungry for information, getting sucked into a variety of scams like “cash back rebates”, that have been shut down with criminal indictments by the attorney general as a fraudulent schemes. We all watched it happening for 3 to 4 years while consumers, like lambs, were led into believing this fraud. Not to mention, the gullible stories of lying cons, that just maybe, we dealers who live in this industry every day of the week, with our 20+ years of experience of dealing with consumers much like yourself, day in and day out because this is our life’s blood, just maybe we are sick of dealing with misleading information and lack of ethics.
I am sorry if I offend you. I can assure you this is not my intention. I stand nothing to gain, nor do I stand anything to loose. What then is my motivation, some ulterior profit making objective.
I know you are an artic owner. Please tell me, is there an artic dealer close by you, or did you first become exposed to them on the web, or maybe you drove some distance to seek them out? Please, do not be offended by my inquiry.
How long do you think it takes a dealer to sell 1000 units of one brand?
THIS IS A QUOTE FROM FLETCH
“You know what's wrong about this site...a few big dealers run it with an agenda. You guys make everyone else believe that anything but what you are selling or the advise you are giving is nonsense.”
What is our agenda and how do we profit? ???
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“You know what's wrong about this site...a few big dealers run it with an agenda. You guys make everyone else believe that anything but what you are selling or the advise you are giving is nonsense.”
What is our agenda and how do we profit? ???
lol....If there is some truth to this SHOW ME THE MONEY .....I mean how does anyone profit and who are these dealers who are running this site ....Bill who moderates I thought he worked in computers ....Is he really a big dealer somewhere .....Just who are the dealers and how exactly are they profiting .....It seems to me to be a very irresponsible claim to make and from what I know is void of any truth ....
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The problem I see on this site is....
There are dealers who are well respected and rightfully so because of thier wealth of knowlege in everything from water chemistry to electricity.
However occassionally they may make ambigious statements about other brands, which are meant to instill uncertainty and even fear in a consumers mind, while having an agenda of their own the whole time.
I guess the board in quite biased at times, and the most popular or highest posters get thier beliefs accross the most.
Spahappy :D
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However occassionally they may make ambigious statements about other brands, which are meant to instill uncertainty and even fear in a consumers mind, while having an agenda of their own the whole time.
You're talking about the rabid arctic attack dogs that pounce on here every once in a while, right?
-Ed
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I wasn’t really interested in chiming in here, but selling 1000 spas, I would think should take about 3-4 years.
I guess we have a bunch of under-performers in here. No wonder you guys are on here so much…
By the way that last comment was a joke.
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You're talking about the rabid arctic attack dogs that pounce on here every once in a while, right?
-Ed
Actually no, I was not refering to Arctic.
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“You know what's wrong about this site...a few big dealers run it with an agenda. You guys make everyone else believe that anything but what you are selling or the advise you are giving is nonsense.”
I take offense to this. I am not a dealer and NO ONE tells me what is right. I am smart enough to form my own opinions based on my many years of mechanical experience. I can see right through BS. And I see plenty from loads of brands including and especialy Arctic!!!
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Tman,
I wasn't talking about you. I think it's great you did your own thing with your spa. In fact I beleve you may understand much more than most dealers on the technology of insulating a spa.
Your posts seem very sincere and you don't seem to have your own agenda.
Peace :-*
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Actually no, I was not refering to Arctic.
Oh, well... It's always cool when your post has the ability to do double duty! ;)
-Ed
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Tman,
I wasn't talking about you. I think it's great you did your own thing with your spa. In fact I beleve you may understand much more than most dealers on the technology of insulating a spa.
Your posts seem very sincere and you don't seem to have your own agenda.
Peace :-*
I actualy was quoting J. Mcd
Back at ya Spahappy...I feel the Love
I just think it's funny, if ya buy an Arctic because you think the floor is better, it may be but it's not an issue on 10-15 brands and they all should be put on a firm level surface. If you buy an Arctic because it's more energy effiecient, your wrong again, get a cover upgrade on any of about oh lets see...10-15 other brands and they will be as effiecient or more effiecient. If you buy an Arctic because it's easier to repair, your right but 95-98 percent of the repairs it won't matter on, and it's more likely to leak than well lets see....oh maybe...10-15 other brands. Insulation method whether it's theirs or ours, that kind or this kind, TP or FF, thermal lock or high density, or blah blah blah blah blah, should not be the deciding factor in your tub purchase. Whether it can set on the ground or has to set on a slab should also not be a factor. It should set on a firm level surface no matter what. Not neccesarily a concrete slab even though that is preffered. I would say there are 3-4 exceptable ways to firm and level a tub base.