Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: smartymose on February 12, 2005, 05:36:01 pm
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OK. We are hot and heavy into the research and wet testing on our quest for a spa. Thanks by the way for all the great info. We just wet tested the Marquis Euphoria today, HS Grandee and Tiger River Siberian yesterday and Sundance Optima/Cameo a few weeks ago. I think we are going to pass on the lounger models...can't get comfortable no matter what brand. (All 04 models). We're going to try and hit Caldera and Dimension One As soon as we can. (Still need to find a dealer that has the 05 Vanguard in the Philly area that we can test).
A couple questions....The Marquis dealer, very nice and knowledgeable, told us that their models did not have the headrest because the ozonator deteriorates them over time...similar story from Sundance dealer, but they did have headrest and the ozonater was an option at Sundance. What are your opinions on this about the impact to the headrests? What does it cost to replace the headrests? How long do the headrest last if you have an ozanator? It seems from all the past posts that having an ozonator in your spa would be a good thing.
The Marguis dealer also recommended the EZPad for a foundation vs concrete. Any thoughts on this? Website is www.ezpads.com.
Thanks for your insights!
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I think concrete is a much better option but if that is too much trouble then the EZ pad is a decent option as long as your ground is level and firm.
Ozone can/does affect pillows but I'd refer it more as fading them just as it does the bottom of the viyl cover. i always explain theis to people so they understand the fading is normal with ozone and it never seems to be an issue. I wouldn't amke pillows a major deal either way. I retrofitted some newer pillows to my 5 yr old spa last year. they've faded but I knew they would and its not too bad and I like having a pillow. Just my opinion of course.
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I have no idea why they would recommend the ez pad over concrete....as for the pillows....they are fine if you feel they are important....the whole spa environment will not do them any good and that is why they are excluded from most warranties...if they are important to you...you can always get the ones that are weighted with sand and you take out when not using the spa....You are looking at most of the better spas out there......
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smarty,
Is that like Smarty Jones? Only kidding...
The Marquis brand of spas is very good quality. The reason for their discontinuation of pillows is that no manufacturer covers the pillows under warrantee. Marquis wants to have the MOST comprehensive warrantee in the industry, and they do. They cover everything form "bumper to bumper" for 5 years.
Re-take a look at their spas, they are very well made. As far as ozone, Marquis has the Frog System built in, in addition to a factory installed ozonator. Beautiful! And they are competitively priced also.
Good Luck...
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My spa is two and a half years old and the pillows are still in great shape, even with ozone. I expect that they will need to be replaced sometime, but they are not a big ticket item.
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tony,
The pillows in your spa will be in the range of about
$200.00 to replace. I have a little bit of a problem
having to spend that amount for pillows every 3 to 4
years, because you will need to do that then.
Now, $200.00 every 3-4 years is not that big of a deal,
but for those D/C customers that are on the edge
regarding price, they may not be able to swallow it.
PS, I do like my pillows in my own Optima. I'm just
making a point. ;D
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Thanks for the feedback on both of these subjects. I think when we do get the right spa, we will probably go with the concrete, just need to get the configuration right in the backyard.
I guess the Marquis dealer showed me a worstcase on the headpillows to solidify the point of not having them and the strength of the warranty as Hottubber stated.
Still on our quest and we'll keep you updated.
thanks and great info as we consider this important purchase!
And yes, like Smarty Jones....SmartyMose!!
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Pillows deteriorate with or without ozone! I find it strange that the Marquis dealer would say it was due to ozone when Marquis and D1 are the only 2 companies rated with a low enough off gas to operate the ozone while the jets are on high! That would mean that there is not enough O3 to affect the pillows...
I like an EZ pad for the simplicity of install and the fact that I can move it with my spa. I agree that concrete is more permanent and stronger but you pay for the convenience of being able to pop that spa pad in place in 15 minuets, no forming, no permits, no waste and no concrete mess!
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I have no idea why they would recommend the ez pad over concrete...
Possibly because they sell ez pads, and make money off of them. Also possibly for the reason Stuart listed.
I know of 2 ez pad installs, and both of them are on their 3rd Minnesoat winter and are in good shape so far.
They're made by the company that makes Rhino Liner truck beds, so they should be of good quality.
Brewman
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There is another option that is similar to the ez pad ...I think it is simply called the spa pad or something it is interlocking plastic and from looking at both I like it better....I think it would hold up better over time....no way for it to break down...it locks in place with what looks like a dogs milk bone...anyone out there seen or have used this before...
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I've seen them, not familiar with them though.
Hopefully, any product advertised as a spa pad is up to the task.
Brewman
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Marquis and D1 are the only 2 companies rated with a low enough off gas to operate the ozone while the jets are on high!
stuart,
can you confirm this claim? When I was having trouble with my Marquis ozonator I was told directly by folks at Marquis that the ozonator will not run with the jets on high or on low and that is in fact how mine currently behaves.
This happens to be my one disappointment with my Marquis - I was under the impression that the ozone did operate with jets on.
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I like the EZ Pad. Ever since Sunstar Ent. sold the
business and the new owners implemented a Rhino
Linings coating, they have been great. I've even had
situations where the old EZ Pads were cracked and
falling apart. The new company backed me on them.
They didn't have to, but they earned my business
because they did. The other company that makes them
that are plastic are from Confer, they sem to be ok but
there are 4 to 6 plastic squares that make up a pad,
can you really get them all level?
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Possibly because they sell ez pads, and make money off of them. Also possibly for the reason Stuart listed.
I know of 2 ez pad installs, and both of them are on their 3rd Minnesoat winter and are in good shape so far.
They're made by the company that makes Rhino Liner truck beds, so they should be of good quality.
Brewman
I make about $25 on an EZ Pad in order to keep the price reasonable enough for the customer to not just put in concrete. The benifit to me is also the ease of install for the customer..It makes it easier for the customer to buy a spa.
BTW, by the time we deliver it with the spa we make nothing...guess that kinda blows the idea that I support it because it makes me money...but then if it does help sell the spa it does help make me money..
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just wrote a check yesterday for a caldera niagra, an due to this post i asked about the pillows. the niagra has 4 . 2 small $25 each, 1 medium size/ $30, and the large collar is $40, and he rep sez, yes they will fade in 2-4 years or so.... not bad when you figure in the time.......
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stuart,
the Ez pads are great for moving the spa sale forward without a hitch. You're right, we don't look to make alot on them either, we just try to take away the "now I need a contractor for a slab" syndrome. It is a nice compliment to the overall spa package if you can help the prospect out. ;D
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You say dealers dont make alot on EZPads? Arent they 500+ for plastic squares?
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BTW, by the time we deliver it with the spa we make nothing...guess that kinda blows the idea that I support it because it makes me money...but then if it does help sell the spa it does help make me money..
Making money is why you are in the spa business, I'd guess,among other reasons.
Not a thing in the world wrong with that, I sure don't work for free.
Perhaps the tone of my message wasn't what I intended it to be. I wasn't trying to imply that they were overpriced or anything, or that the dealers were over charging for them. I appologize if I came across this way.
Brewman
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dazed,
Now I can see why your screen name is D/C.
Most dealers, I am sure, try to package the EZ Pad at a minimal cost, so that you, the consumer, has what is needed to make a final purchase decision, if you needed a patio or slab without getting a contractor involved. For me, it speeds up the decision process for the consumer. I can only speak for myself, but we only make a couple of bucks on it to help out our customers.
On the other hand...You may be correct, some dealers may opt to sell the plastic squares for alot of money.
;)
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I find it strange that the Marquis dealer would say it was due to ozone when Marquis and D1 are the only 2 companies rated with a low enough off gas to operate the ozone while the jets are on high!
I believe that Hot Springs produces ozone all the time, regardless of whether the jets are on or not. I think someone also said Sundance does this as well.
-Ed
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D-1, Marquis & Caldera Are the only spas with FACTORY installed ozonators that run regardless of whether the jets are on high or not. The ozonators on Hot Spring, Sundance, Jacuzzi, and many other spas are DEALER INSTALLED, not FACTORY installed.
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Thanks hottubber for the info regarding SD pillows. I see the larger pillows for about 47.00 each plus 16.00 for the inserts and the small pillows for about 21.00 plus 12.00 for the inserts. I don't see any breakdown on my pillows at all. Nothing. The inserts, though, seem to be more prone to need changing every three to four years.
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tony,
The pillows in your spa will be in the range of about
$200.00 to replace. I have a little bit of a problem
having to spend that amount for pillows every 3 to 4
years, because you will need to do that then.
Now, $200.00 every 3-4 years is not that big of a deal,
but for those D/C customers that are on the edge
regarding price, they may not be able to swallow it.
PS, I do like my pillows in my own Optima. I'm just
making a point. ;D
$200.00 You've got to be kidding! Ouch!
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I am not sure what most dealers charge but I am with Stuart...We are not in business to sell spa pads...If we can help a customer with a good price on a pad we will do it....I still like the cement....but these can work for fine for those who want to get something in quick....
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D-1, Marquis & Caldera Are the only spas with FACTORY installed ozonators that run regardless of whether the jets are on high or not. The ozonators on Hot Spring, Sundance, Jacuzzi, and many other spas are DEALER INSTALLED, not FACTORY installed.
Thanks for the info!
But, what difference does it make if it is factory installed or dealer installed ??? The Del ozonators put on a hot spring are made for hot spring, and the tub is engineered to accept them. Do you mean to imply that a factory installed ozone system is somehow safer or more effective than a dealer-installed system?
Confused!
-Ed
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Ed,
When it is factory installed you know what you are getting....Some dealers may choose to used a different ozonator to save a few dollars...
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D-1, Marquis & Caldera Are the only spas with FACTORY installed ozonators that run regardless of whether the jets are on high or not. The ozonators on Hot Spring, Sundance, Jacuzzi, and many other spas are DEALER INSTALLED, not FACTORY installed.
Wouldn't any tub which uses a circ pump have ozone 24/7 regardless of whether the jet pumps are operating?
Does anyone know if there is a good reason why many manufacturers don't bother to install ozonators on tubs for their dealers?
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If you have a UL listed spa..than for UL listing it must be factory installed....or you void the listing....
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Wouldn't any tub which uses a circ pump have ozone 24/7 regardless of whether the jet pumps are operating?
Does anyone know if there is a good reason why many manufacturers don't bother to install ozonators on tubs for their dealers?
No, b/c UL and ETL won't approve them to operate with the jets on high unless there is an adequate contact chamber that limits the ammount of off-gasing to a minimum. This is why Marquis and D-1 are the only manufacturers (to my knowledge) that have ozone while the jets are on high. It should also be noted that D-1 is the ONLY manufacturer that has true 24/7 ozonation, as the ozone is running regardless of whether the jets are on or not.
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It should also be noted that D-1 is the ONLY manufacturer that has true 24/7 ozonation, as the ozone is running regardless of whether the jets are on or not.
OK. I understand the listing part, and the dealer/factory part, but:
1) Chas has stated (maybe he'll state again?) that HS is ETL listed. Yet, HS also has an ozonator.
2) My HS has true 24/7 ozone. So, I just don't understand the quote above. From the HS website (http://www.hotspring.com/Spas_Built_Last/water_care.html)
"Unlike ozone systems which turn off when you're using the jets, the FreshWater III system is at work 24 hours a day."
-Ed
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Ed,
When it is factory installed you know what you are getting....Some dealers may choose to used a different ozonator to save a few dollars...
Oh. I was under the impression that Del made HS ozonators and that only those ozonators were put on HS spas. I might take my spa skirting off when it is warmer and take a peek and see what is inside.
I wonder if HS maintains ETL by having a dedicated ozonator and by using qualified instructors to install it?? My car didn't come with some options from the factory, but my dealer installed some stuff and it didn't void the warranty. I wonder if HS works the same way???
-Ed
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Sundance makes it's spas ozone ready, and offeres the customer 3 choices: No ozone, CD ozone, or UV ozone.
That probably makes it easier for the factory and dealer when ordering spas for their inventory. As long as the spa is ozone ready, what difference does it make if they intall at the factory, or if the dealer does it, as long as it's a Sundance ozone unit. That's how my led light option worked- they put it in at delivery. Warranty is still intact.
Brewman
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And, more importantly, I would assume the ETL listing is still intact. If you have an ETL listed D-1, and some repair guy comes out to fix your ozonator by replacing it with a new one, you haven't suddenly lost ETL listing, have you?
I put in an e-mail to Hot Spring and asked about it. I'll post any reply that I get.
-Ed
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actually you can't put a different ozonator on the D-1 reflection and bay series spas. They come standard with a UV Ozone system.
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I'd assume that the ETL/UL listing would stay intact if the dealer added options that were authorized by the factory.
Non factory parts, I'm not sure about.
Wonder how much you can sway from the factory condition to invalidate the UL testing results?
Brewman
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Here is the hot spring back and forth, to date:
I guess I didn't make myself clear in my second sentence, I apologize. The ozonator is not installed at the factory as it is considered an accessary. The dealer always installs the ozonator and it doesn't void the warranty. I was only cautioning you that sometimes dealers install brands that are not Hot Spring. IF an off brand ozonator were to be installed and that caused a problem with the spa, that problem would not be covered by warranty, but it would not automatically void the entire warranty, only the issue involved with the ozonator.
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Thank you for the very quick response. It answered 2 of my 3 questions.
My final question is:
If the dealer installs the freshwater III ozone feature in my spa, does that installation then void the ETL listing of my Hot Spring spa? I'm not talking about other ozone systems, but, specifically, if I pay for the freshwater III system with ozonator and the dealer installs it, is my tub STILL ETL listed?
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Thank you for writing to Watkins and your interest in our spa.
Hot Spring spas are all ETL listed.
The ozonator is an accessary that is installed by the dealer (not the factory) and it would not void the warranty to have that done. The dealers are privately owned and operated (not a franchise), so they sometimes
sell product other than Hot Spring. Be sure that anything installed after market is the brand that you are expecting.
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Just an inquiry or two:
1) Are HS spas ETL listed?
2) Is the freshwater ozonator installed at the factory or by the dealer?
3) Do you lose ETL listing if the dealer installs the ozonator instead of the factory?
Thank you!
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Ed,
I am unsure if it voids the ETL listing...but.....Hot Springs response points out the very thing I mentioned and that is you do not know what you are getting with your dealer....now I am sure if you paid for F.W. 3 system than that is what you would get...I think the grey area is when a dealer simply adds to an invoice add ozonator....that is where you are unsure of you are getting....
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Ed,
I am unsure if it voids the ETL listing...but.....Hot Springs response points out the very thing I mentioned and that is you do not know what you are getting with your dealer....now I am sure if you paid for F.W. 3 system than that is what you would get...I think the grey area is when a dealer simply adds to an invoice add ozonator....that is where you are unsure of you are getting....
My HS dealer included an ozonator in the deal at my request. It was only after I kept doing my homework that I found out it was a Spa King.
When I requested a HS ozonator the price went up $200. Same thing happened with the cover lifter. Included cheap lifter and the crover cradel was another $200.
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Here is the final answer from Hot Springs on the ETL listing:
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Hi again. Installing the ozonator does not affect the ETL listing if it is
also an ETL listed and approved ozonator. All of Watkins products are ETL
approved.
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As for what you buy and what you get, it DOES depend on the dealer. When I told my dealer I wanted an ozonator he made a point of calling it the "freshwater III system", not just "an ozonator", and now I know why!
But, this little bit of research led me to the following conclusions:
1) HS tubs with the HS ozonator are ETL listed.
2) HS tubs run ozone 24/7.
The claims that D1 are the only ones that do this, or are the only ones that do this safely, or are the only ones that do this with an intact listing are just... bunk.
I would imagine the same is true of Sundance tubs. I'm sure D1 is a good tub, but there is no reason to say things that are not true just to hawk a spa.
-Ed
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I would imagine the same is true of Sundance tubs. I'm sure D1 is a good tub, but there is no reason to say things that are not true just to hawk a spa.
-Ed
Now..Now...whats wrong a little bending and tweaking among friends.... ;).... ;).....
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Now..Now...whats wrong a little bending and tweaking among friends.... ;).... ;).....
:-X
I guess you're right. Since a little bending and tweaking is allowed, did you know that D-1's follow the same naming convention as a famous steak sauce? Maybe, with enough engineering they'll climb up to A-1. ::)
-Ed
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:-X
I guess you're right. Since a little bending and tweaking is allowed, did you know that D-1's follow the same naming convention as a famous steak sauce? Maybe, with enough engineering they'll climb up to A-1. ::)
-Ed
Ed, it's about time you agreed with me that D-1 makes the A-#1 spas on the market
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:D
Now, I know this isn't the topic of this thread, and I know we've gotten pretty off topic, but I wonder something...
Alot of people on these boards are dealers and part of the job of a dealer is to sell spas and this usually involves a sales pitch. Sometimes, the sales pitch comes from the company itself (a-la marketing campaign) and sometimes the sales pitch is based on the dealer's knowledge and/or inate sales ability.
As people get new sales pitches (from ideas or from the spa manufacturer) how many dealers use these forums as a"sounding board" for what will and will not fly?
I image it would be rough to try to sell a spa, make a claim that winds up being untrue, and then have a comparison shopper feel that the salesman was dishonest when, indeed, they may have just been mistaken.
So.. how many people do use these forums and opinion posts to "test the waters"???
-Ed
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Ed,
Thats a good question....The thought of using these boards to try a pitch out is something that has never crossed my mind and I doubt would cross the minds of many others...maybe I am wrong....I actually come to these boards first and foremost as a place to learn....It is where I can get the best information and insights about other spas as well as problems and ways to address them...At times when it is very obvious and done with a smile you plainly state your bias but more so when it is asked for or in the nature of friendly competition or just banter....but again for me...it is more of a learning tool than anything else.....
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ed,
As a longtime spa dealer, I still am learning about the new,and updated features on all of the models that exist in the marketplace. There are alot of biased opinions that get posted, but isn't that what we want? Don't we want both sides of the equation? As a Sundance and Marquis Spas dealer, I feel that the input to the board given by me, may help out a dazed and confused spa shopper, or assistance in a service issue that is posted, based on my experience. Everyone has their "BEST" spa line and there are quite a few, but to the consumer that is looking to purchase new, this site is very, very helpful. ;D
Let's keep up the good work, it is for the bettermeant of the industry.
An educated consumer is a valuable asset to the spa industry. ;)
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All true.
Sorry, I didn't mean sales pitch in a bad way. We have all heard (as shoppers or dealers) sales "approaches" in different ways. Sometimes a dealer truly thinks they have something unique, when it is just a variation of an existing and common theme.
I applaud dealers who test their beliefs through research. Instead of passively absorbing what happens to come down the line on these forums it takes some work and guts to actively say "is this claim true". As tub models evolve a claim from 3 years ago may no longer be the case.
But whenever I see posts that start with "my brand is the ONLY one that does BLAH" I get the feeling someone is trying out a sales approach. If the get a general agreement, it's good. If they get alot of criticism, they know how to refine that sales approach. There is nothing particularly shady about that. In fact, it is a bit like the peer review process of science.
-Ed