Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Chas on January 14, 2005, 06:46:09 pm
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As I posted recently, I have no spa in my yard right now. We took it out just about a month ago, cleaned and polished it all up and put it on the showroom floor as a clearance item.
We sold it last week and delivered it a couple of days ago during a break in the rain.
While delivering it, we discovered that we had never installed the ozone generator!! I had the little bubbles the whole time, and I assumed it was being ozonated. I put in tiny amounts of Dichlor, and the thing never went south on me - well there was that one time.... but generally it was fine for the eight or nine months we had it. This means that one of my guys cut the tubing and installed the injector, but never installed the 'black box' that makes the ozone! Give me a break!
Just thought I'd share the laugh.
;D ;D ;D
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What makes that funnier is the statement by many customers when you sell HS "I have bubbles coming out from that round thing on the floor so I know my ozone is working.....!" :D
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"Hey, if you come back, how far is Corona from your shop? I'm trying to get my company to send me out there.
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"Hey, if you come back, how far is Corona from your shop? I'm trying to get my company to send me out there.
...my company just sent me to Cancun for several Corona's ;D ;D ;D :P
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did you enjoy a few Corona's Stu....man I was done in by the miami vices.....they were good....
Bill Corona is near me but about 2 hours from Chas
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Chas, I'm glad you are back. I think you offer the most un-biased opinions even though you are a HS guy. What are you going to buy next? Do you prefer a non-lounger design?
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Though everyone seems to love this Chas guy and I agree that he offers good advice and all but did no one else catch the "I'm really busy right now opeing up 2 stores, but if you need me, I'll be on this other spa forum" post?. He's to busy to come here and he wanted to take a break from this forum but he has the time to post somewhere else? Kind of a diss to the people here if you ask me. ??? Don't tell me you didn't catch that?
Maybe I'm just typing what everyone else is thinking.
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Though everyone seems to love this Chas guy and I agree that he offers good advice and all but did no one else catch the "I'm really busy right now opeing up 2 stores, but if you need me, I'll be on this other spa forum" post?. He's to busy to come here and he wanted to take a break from this forum but he has the time to post somewhere else? Kind of a diss to the people here if you ask me. ??? Don't tell me you didn't catch that?
Maybe I'm just typing what everyone else is thinking.
or mayby you're just blowing bubbles :P :P :P :P The "other" board gets about 3 posts a day.......... on a busy day ;D
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Though everyone seems to love this Chas guy and I agree that he offers good advice and all but did no one else catch the "I'm really busy right now opeing up 2 stores, but if you need me, I'll be on this other spa forum" post?. He's to busy to come here and he wanted to take a break from this forum but he has the time to post somewhere else? Kind of a diss to the people here if you ask me. ??? Don't tell me you didn't catch that?
Maybe I'm just typing what everyone else is thinking.
Or...maybe he's just avoiding you! ;) Then again "Maybe I'm just typing what everyone else is thinking!" ;D ;D
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I think we should dock his, cancel his benefits, give away his parking space and company car, make him pay for his own uniforms, and put a nasty note in his employee file...... oh wait! he doesn't work here does he? He volunteers his time and his knowledge........... boy, the nerve of that guy........
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I think I get the volunteer thing thank you. ::) I was speaking of his actions kuz they spoke loudly. I expected indiscriminate defense from a handful.
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In sincerely believe he felt he was spending too much time and forced himself to take a break, and I'm not going to get too upset if he mentioned another forum that he happens to operate.
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I guess i'm one of those customers that thinks it's working because of the bubbles. Si how do you know if it's working?
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Here's the thing that's killing me that noone got. Chas' ozone NEVER was hooked up, but it MADE NO DIFFERENCE in how the tub was treated. So all you lovers of Chas and proponents of ozone just took your biggest hit. Let me clarify...Chas=good OZONE= POINTLESS, WORTHLESS, WASTE OF MONEY.
As I posted recently, I have no spa in my yard right now. We took it out just about a month ago, cleaned and polished it all up and put it on the showroom floor as a clearance item.
We sold it last week and delivered it a couple of days ago during a break in the rain.
While delivering it, we discovered that we had never installed the ozone generator!! I had the little bubbles the whole time, and I assumed it was being ozonated. I put in tiny amounts of Dichlor, and the thing never went south on me - well there was that one time.... but generally it was fine for the eight or nine months we had it. This means that one of my guys cut the tubing and installed the injector, but never installed the 'black box' that makes the ozone! Give me a break!
Just thought I'd share the laugh.
;D ;D ;D
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Here's the thing that's killing me that noone got. Chas' ozone NEVER was hooked up, but it MADE NO DIFFERENCE in how the tub was treated. So all you lovers of Chas and proponents of ozone just took your biggest hit. Let me clarify...Chas=good OZONE= POINTLESS, WORTHLESS, WASTE OF MONEY.
This did strike me right away but I did want to see if any spa professionals said anything about it as there is always an ozone debate (see my circ pump question) going on.
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Here's the thing that's killing me that noone got. Chas' ozone NEVER was hooked up, but it MADE NO DIFFERENCE in how the tub was treated. So all you lovers of Chas and proponents of ozone just took your biggest hit. Let me clarify...Chas=good OZONE= POINTLESS, WORTHLESS, WASTE OF MONEY.
Did Chas say whether he was using N2 or just dichlor?
I do respectfully disagree that ozone is pointless. I have three spas running at this store. 2 are D-1's with 24 hour ozone the other a Coleman without ozone. I am the only person here that maintains the water.
The two D-1's take less sanitizer and have less foam. I beleive these to be benefits. As for the value of those benefits, well that is open for scrutinizing.
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I do respectfully disagree that ozone is pointless.
I concur. We ozone proponents have NEVER said you can't have clean/clear water without ozone. I simply makes it easier.
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If you happen to visit the other board, you will notice that Chas recently posted his incredibly hectic schedule of the last few months, and I don't blame him for needing a break!
Of course, he thinks he needs a vacation too, so he will be going in February!
Do any of you guys do any work? LOL! J/T!!! First Stu, then Steve, then Chas (and Stu is going again)! Man, I think our unlucky moderator here deserves a vacation!
So, does it show that I'm extremely jealous? :P ;D :-*
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)! Man, I think our unlucky moderator here deserves a vacation!
So, does it show that I'm extremely jealous? :P ;D :-*
We are saving for our cruise in early '06 so the only vacation we may take this year maybe the most restful kind. We will probably go to a nice quiet campgound and do absolutely nothing for a few days.
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I guess i'm one of those customers that thinks it's working because of the bubbles. Si how do you know if it's working?
Me too matthew... c'mon you guys, how would one know it's working?
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Here's the thing that's killing me that noone got. Chas' ozone NEVER was hooked up, but it MADE NO DIFFERENCE in how the tub was treated. So all you lovers of Chas and proponents of ozone just took your biggest hit. Let me clarify...Chas=good OZONE= POINTLESS, WORTHLESS, WASTE OF MONEY.
How many years has Chas owned spas? He knows what he is doing when it comes to the chems. But the argument can be made that ozone might be beneficial to us newbies who stumble and bumble with our new tubs trying to figure out what chems and how much to use. Just because it did not show a noticible difference in Chas' spa, does not prove that ozone doesn't add benefits to other spas. The argument can also be made that HS filtration works so well that ozone isn't needed!
Just my though on the matter.
Jonathan
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How many years has Chas owned spas? He knows what he is doing when it comes to the chems. But the argument can be made that ozone might be beneficial to us newbies who stumble and bumble with our new tubs trying to figure out what chems and how much to use. Just because it did not show a noticible difference in Chas' spa, does not prove that ozone doesn't add benefits to other spas. The argument can also be made that HS filtration works so well that ozone isn't needed!
The following is my "theory" about spa water care. My limited experience doesn't make it the "correct theory" it's just my theory and certainly can be disproved at any time. But I believe that Chas' post does have some merit to the ineffectiveness of ozone.
The only info on the internet I could find on ozone is for drinking water. If you do a research on drinking water ozonation you will see that a spa's ozonator is very different from a commercial drinking water ozonator. If you do research this please remember that they inject 100% oxygen for their ozone and air has approximately 21% oxygen - a 79% oxygen reduction.
I have had a pool for 4 years now and all I have done is make sure that my water chemistry is in the correct ranges and keep my CL at around 3 PPM, I do shock every so often to 10 PPM depending on my combined chlorine. I do have a DE filter which is the best IMO but only have the water changing over about once a day. Also to keep algae from growing I brush the walls and floor once a month. So far in residential pool water care it seems that ozone and Nature 2 (N2) are waste of money and in an outdoor pool MPS is not looked upon as a good thing.
With my limited experience in pool water care and reading Docs site, especially posts by a person named Vermonter (apparently he is a Microbiologist), I would have to say that IF you take care of your water properly - no ozone is needed. Some people on Doc's site have removed their ozonators and have no problems with their water. Most follow Vermonter's and or another person, Northman, advice and seem to have little water problems. Do either Vermonter or Northman say no ozone - they do not. But at the same time Vermonter did question an ozonators effectiveness.
I think as newbies we read a lot and do get confused. I have read that with N2 all you need is 0.5 PPM CL reading - I personally think that's awfully low. It really leaves no margin for heavier bacteria level. If the CL runs out before it does it's job, you will have a problem. I would say that following a guideline of chlorinating to get a 3 PPM 20 minutes after putting in the chlorine and shocking to 10 PPM once a week (these figures are based on pool chlorine doses and what I have read) along with adequate filtering - you will have a clean and clear spa.
As a newbie I do plan on messing up my water - that's part of the learning curve.
I purchased a spa with an ozonator because the dealer "included" it with the spa. I originally wasn't going to buy an ozonator but I'll give it a try since some people swear by it and my theory may be wrong.
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Vinny, you are 100% correct, you do not need ozone for clean clear water.
I sold Beachcomber for years, seldom did one have an ozonator. Nearly 1000 customers with Beachcombers, no ozonators. Clean, clear water. 25 sq ft filters to boot!
When we brought in Dimension 1 (ozone is a standard feature) I was very impressed at how the water looked if wqe neglected to sanitize for a few days. Foaming was always and issue with the running Beachcomber's in the store and a non-issue with the D-1. Ofcorse these conditions I speak of are show room conditions with light bather load.
All the same, maintenance is easier on the D-1's compared to the Beachcomber.
We still have hundreds of loyal Beachcomber customers who still have clean clear water......and no ozonators, they just have to work a little harder than my D-1 customers.
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HotTubMan,
Besides ozone and possibly filter size, are there any other differences in tubs? Does the D1 filter more water in a given day (kick on therapy pumps every so often)?
I do know that D1 has a beefed up N2 cartridge in their Vision (?) system and they do run 24/7 ozone with their system (dealer explained it to me as they run the ozone tubing all around the tub to get the contact time high but use UV bulb technology).
Thanks!
Vinny
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Vinny;
We are not using N2 or Vision (D-1's beefed up N2).
The Beachcomber circ pump moves more water than the D-1. The D-1 does have one massage pump set to run for one hour, once a day. I would say its a wash on water turnover.
As for the filter, that is one big difference, 25 v 150 sq ft. I still maintain more filtration does not equal cleaner water, just less filter maintenance. Using your pool analogy a 20K gallon pool with an 18" filter would need back washing more often than if it had a 24" filter.
Ok, thats it see y'all in a week or so!
Jeff
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Length of time and ownership of a spa has nothing to do with the ammount of chemicals you add to a predetermined volume of water to keep it sanitized. There is no one company with a lock on filtration. All spas filter water weather it's through 1 filter or 5. What do you think is the purpos of the "clean up" cycle on HS spas. It is because rhe circ pump doesn't move enough water by itself, so you need to hit the clean up button. I'm not saying it's a bad thing just a different thing.
How many years has Chas owned spas? He knows what he is doing when it comes to the chems. But the argument can be made that ozone might be beneficial to us newbies who stumble and bumble with our new tubs trying to figure out what chems and how much to use. Just because it did not show a noticible difference in Chas' spa, does not prove that ozone doesn't add benefits to other spas. The argument can also be made that HS filtration works so well that ozone isn't needed!
Just my though on the matter.
Jonathan
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What exactly is the relationship between ozone and foam? Foam is typicaly caused by excessive sanitizer in the water and it makes pure white tiny bubble foam. Foam caused by insufficient sanitizer is typicaly brownish grey and makes big bubbles. foam caused by clothing detergent and hair products is more like soap suds. None of these conditions have anything to do with ozone.
Vinny, you are 100% correct, you do not need ozone for clean clear water.
I sold Beachcomber for years, seldom did one have an ozonator. Nearly 1000 customers with Beachcombers, no ozonators. Clean, clear water. 25 sq ft filters to boot!
When we brought in Dimension 1 (ozone is a standard feature) I was very impressed at how the water looked if wqe neglected to sanitize for a few days. Foaming was always and issue with the running Beachcomber's in the store and a non-issue with the D-1. Ofcorse these conditions I speak of are show room conditions with light bather load.
All the same, maintenance is easier on the D-1's compared to the Beachcomber.
We still have hundreds of loyal Beachcomber customers who still have clean clear water......and no ozonators, they just have to work a little harder than my D-1 customers.
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Length of time and ownership of a spa has nothing to do with the amount of chemicals you add to a predetermined volume of water to keep it sanitized. There is no one company with a lock on filtration. All spas filter water weather it's through 1 filter or 5. What do you think is the purpose of the "clean up" cycle on HS spas. It is because rhe circ pump doesn't move enough water by itself, so you need to hit the clean up button. I'm not saying it's a bad thing just a different thing.
You missed my point. The point I was making was that Chas knows how to care of his spa, plain and simple, newbies generally don't. Ozone is not 'needed' to have clean water. If it was, what have people been doing for years and years without it. Ozone does help in maintaining water quality for people like me, who are learning every day how to do it correctly.
Jonathan
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If you happen to visit the other board, you will notice that Chas recently posted his incredibly :P ;D :-*
What's the url of the other board?
Thx
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How does a "tiny amount all of a sudden become "twice as much"?
I assumed it was being ozonated. I put in tiny amounts of Dichlor, and the thing never went south on me - well there was that one time.... but generally it was fine for the eight or nine months we had it.
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twice as often, I guess. I wasn't keeping track, but I did go out and put dichlor in regularly. I don't measure, I just drop in a 'bit.' And I tend to put in 'a bit more' if the tub looks/smells less than perfect.
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Have fun in San Diego, let us know whats new in the Hot Springs world.
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Ooh, a new tub?
Please, post when you get a chance! I would like to live vicariously through you! ;D
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Looks like a another great new spa from HS!!! :D
Have fun at the meeting and say hi to all the guys who built my Vista ;)
Jonathan
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Just before I drove away for San Diego, I posted the new Accolade on my (badly in need of refurbishing) web site. Go see it by clicking on the little 'house' to the left, under my name.
Enjoy.
How does the Accolade compare to the Vanguard in price and features?
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Just before I drove away for San Diego, I posted the new Accolade on my (badly in need of refurbishing) web site. Go see it by clicking on the little 'house' to the left, under my name.
Enjoy.
obviously you just popped back in to post accolades for HotSpring's..... ;D ;D
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No Moto? What is up with that? Or am I missing it, since they have the new moto?
Hmmm.......Pretty!!!
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Looks like be great for 4 linemen.
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It's the new "Stealth Moto." They have had one in the Prodigy for years. You just can't see it, or feel it. . .
But this tub is 36" tall, and looks like it will be great for four folks. And it has a powerful pump - so it tends to be a very potent package.
And I agree with Lori - the thing looks sharp.
;)
Ok, so I was just missing it! Good! Would hate for someone to not get the moto! It's my favorite!! ;D
Thanks Chas!!! You're the best!
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It's the new "Stealth Moto." They have had one in the Prodigy for years. You just can't see it, or feel it. . .
But this tub is 36" tall, and looks like it will be great for four folks. And it has a powerful pump - so it tends to be a very potent package.
And I agree with Lori - the thing looks sharp.
;)
12 posts in 13 days! Take it easy big fella! ;)
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What exactly is the relationship between ozone and foam? Foam is typicaly caused by excessive sanitizer in the water and it makes pure white tiny bubble foam. Foam caused by insufficient sanitizer is typicaly brownish grey and makes big bubbles. foam caused by clothing detergent and hair products is more like soap suds. None of these conditions have anything to do with ozone.
I did not claim to know "exactly the relationship between ozone and foam". I shared an observation. I do not understand why this seems to boil your blood. '
My theory would be that the oils and detergents are destroyed more effewctively by ozone than low levels of sanitizer. A good shock will reduce that kind of foam too, but that would be more work.
How would you explain the difference? Just curious...
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So I take it you are back now Chas? The dramatic exit didn't last long. ??? Things aren't as busy as you expected?
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Miss information touted as fact, that's what boils my blood. In this post you have suddenly inserted the word "theory" in your previous post you claimed that water care in a D-1 is easier than in a Beachcomber, weather I have taken it out of context or not, your words make it sound as if D-1 is a superior product. As for Ozone, it is an oxidizer, it has ZERO effect on oils and detergents. Only filtration can remove oils and detergents along with some effective enzyme cleaners. However most detergents that cause foam will just run their course but a couple drops of defoamer goes a long way.
I did not claim to know "exactly the relationship between ozone and foam". I shared an observation. I do not understand why this seems to boil your blood. '
My theory would be that the oils and detergents are destroyed more effewctively by ozone than low levels of sanitizer. A good shock will reduce that kind of foam too, but that would be more work.
How would you explain the difference? Just curious...
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Miss information touted as fact, that's what boils my blood.
What doesn't boil your blood Frank?
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you claimed that water care in a D-1 is easier than in a Beachcomber,
It is, in my experience. The way you are talking, you experience with both products that contradicts my observations?
weather I have taken it out of context or not, your words make it sound as if D-1 is a superior product.
No. Your quest against ozone made my words seem that way to you. If one was to equate ease of maintenance with superiority, then the person with that thought process could draw that conclusion.
As for Ozone, it is an oxidizer, it has ZERO effect on oils and detergents.
Well I have no statistical "proof". I assume that you do not either, or you would have sighted it.
Only filtration can remove oils and detergents along with some effective enzyme cleaners.
You make it sound like only enzymes can do this job.....
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Miss information touted as fact, that's what boils my blood.
Is it possible we might have a little here? ???
As for Ozone, it is an oxidizer, it has ZERO effect on oils and detergents. Only filtration can remove oils and detergents along with some effective enzyme cleaners. However most detergents that cause foam will just run their course but a couple drops of defoamer goes a long way.
ZERO effect on oils and detergents? That's not my understanding but I don't claim to be all knowing on ozone. I've always understood that ozone will do much the same as enzymes in that they break down organics therefore allowing them to be more easily oxydized.
Can you tell me Frank where you are gathering this info or if you have a link. I'd be curious to read more on this if it is indeed true. Thanks
Steve
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(http://www.delozone.com/images/head-dealer-ofacts.jpg)
(http://www.delozone.com/ozonefacts-whatdoesitdo.html)
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(http://www.bigfoto.com/sites/galery/photos12/u0holz.JPG)
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I think you're "bark"ing up the wrong tree and should "leaf" it alone... ::)
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Hey Steve, who writes your material??
( you should fire them ) ;D
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Exactly.
(http://www.delozone.com/images/head-dealer-ofacts.jpg)
(http://www.delozone.com/ozonefacts-whatdoesitdo.html)
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Well...
reading the link, it says that oils are an oxidizable substance. Doesn't that mean that ozone *will* have an affect on oils?
I'm confused. Wisoki said ozone has zero affect on oils, but then said "exactly" to the ozone link, which implied that it does have an affect on oils. Not saying one is correct and the other isn't, but, well... which is it???
-Ed
ps. I happen to love ozone because it helps to get rid of Bubbles.
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Well...
reading the link, it says that oils are an oxidizable substance.
Exactly! ;D
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OK, I just finised perusing the entire freaking DEL site, and the only mention I saw of oils was in that tiny print at the botom of the list under "some iron". Even though throughout the rest of the site there are refrences to bacteria. I'd call that corperate propaganda, not proof it has an affect on oils. I will continue to advise my customers to forgo the ozone water purifier. However if y'all wanna blindly belive as opposed to questioning, so be it, I'm done with this subject.
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The vast majority of what goes on around my little world. Only here on the internet, when I read perpetual crap. ADIOS
What doesn't boil your blood Frank?
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It has long been my understanding that Ozone does oxidize such things as oil and soap. It's common sense that oxidizers all do exactly the same thing: they oxidize. So chlorine and MPS will oxidize oils and Ozone will as well. Ozone has its limitations, and like MPS, is not a sanitizer. But it IS an oxidizer. As such, it reduces the load for the sanitizer, i.e. chlorine.
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Hey Steve, who writes your material??
( you should fire them ) ;D
Mendocino writes all my stuff...I'll let him know! ;D
Steve
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However if y'all wanna blindly belive as opposed to questioning, so be it, I'm done with this subject.
Actually, I was questioning instead of blindly believing you. But, thanks for being done with this subject.
-Ed
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ADIOS
Arrivederci
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cyinarah ??? ;D
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kind of hard to put too much stock in a site that claims:
"Ozone is the alternative water purifier to traditional pool/spa chemicals such as chlorine and bromine."
As for Ozone's effect on oils ... if you are of the "belief" that ozone is an oxidizer then you have to accept the fact that it does effect oils since oxidation is a common cause of oil breakdown...
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kind of hard to put too much stock in a site that claims:
"Ozone is the alternative water purifier to traditional pool/spa chemicals such as chlorine and bromine."
As for Ozone's effect on oils ... if you are of the "belief" that ozone is an oxidizer then you have to accept the fact that it does effect oils since oxidation is a common cause of oil breakdown...
WOW...you're right empolgation; I missed that first time 'round. Maybe not the best site for good info on ozone. I'm still of the firm belief that ozone does oxidize oils and soap residues. I don't believe that's been questioned prior to now.
The funny thing is that we did question it... Oh well.. :-/
Steve
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Mendocino writes all my stuff...I'll let him know! ;D
Steve
Whooooooooooa.........I what...... :o
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Whooooooooooa.........I what...... :o
Don't worry about...YOU'RE FIRED! Kinda felt like Donald Trump there for a second! ;D
Steve
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You kinda sounded like him, too!
Brewman
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Why does this thread have a red flag?
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Why does this thread have a red flag?
It has more than 25 replies!
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AH! I thought it was some sort of 'off topic' warning system. Being a 'junior member with only a couple-dozen posts, I wouldn't know these things...
;)
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Never fear, Chas! I can show you the way!
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Well, at least now I'm a "full member."
Funny, I don't remember eating yet....
;)
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Why does this thread have a red flag?
Anything you write lately has a red flag in my mind.
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Anything you write lately has a red flag in my mind.
Ah the real reason!
BTW - I just had lunch, so I am now truly a Full Memeber.
;)