Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: drober30 on January 23, 2005, 10:07:33 pm
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Like everything else I get myself into I started surfing the net for hours consuming information so I could make an informed decision. I found this forum and have enjoyed reading!
I live in Michigan and in my short time of looking into spa's I have found Hot Spring and Caldera (both by Watkins I found out). Both I have read to be top runners in a quality spa purchase. I also am aware of Tiger River which my HS dealer also sells.
I love the fact that HS guarantees their operating cost. Not so much that I would go through the headache of testing it with their meter but that they are confident that there spas are that well insulated. Have not seen another manufacture offering that in writing?
Does anybody in Michigan have one or two more that I should consider that would be of equal quality?
I think one or two more choices will be fine for selection and negotiating.
Thanks!
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I think "most" will agree...That along with Hot Springs...you have D-1....Marquis....Sundance among the very top....I think and I know I might tick a few off here....but Caldera and Jacuzzi Premium are just a slight step down within the company's family that own them...it is not a big step just a slight one....and than you have others who are also good but most likely will get more different points of view as to there position in the spa world....I am thinking of company's like Coleman, and Master...Dynasty....Artesian among others that to some feel they belong at the top.. but will also have those who would suggest other wise....
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Read through the reviews here and at rhtubs and see what people have said about their spas.
Your going to get a lot of "bests" given to you. There is a long list of good spas out there AND a list of junk too. My suggestion would be go to as many dealers and see as many different tubs that you can. If you can wet test - do so.
The tub is one aspect of the purchase and the dealer is another. You'll be suprised of how you'll click with some dealers and dislike others.
Take your time and you'll find "THE ONE".
Good Luck!
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Vinny,
That is a good point....the dealer is as important as the tub....when it all comes down to it you will get hydro- therapy from any spa....I think the reason why those who many consider as the upper tier of spa company's ... is not because their spas are so much better... it is that it has been shown over the years that they as a company tend to take better care of their customers....as well as making a solid product....
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I agree with the dealer point. That was the first thing for me even before the tub purchase it self. I just couldn't buy a tub I liked from a dealer that just didn't sit right with me. Luckily for me I found a great dealer and a tub I loved. For me I looked at the following. Good dealer I felt comfortable with, cost, warranty, how the tub felt for me/family, reviews on the brand I was interesteed and I took it from there. Everyone has their opions of tubs so you really have to find one that YOU are comfortable with in all aspects.
Good luck.
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Excellent, excellent replies for you, drober. The only other thing to suggest is wet test, wet test, wet test and don't be in a hurry.....a tub is a MAJOR purchase and extra time to find the one for you will return MAJOR dividends down the road....
Good luck. 8)
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Thanks to everyone for the replies! I look forward to reading more.
Like everything else I have purchased, snowmobile, wave runners and car's and the sales department tries to up sell their service department.
I think you can look at things like amount of time in business, in house repair crew ect... but like most other types of sales, sale people move around.
The sales person can promise good service but he may be gone next month. I agree it’s important to buy from a reliable dealer who has been around for a decent time but you can’t judge their service till you need it.
Yes you can read the (nice) letters they have displayed or they would even be able to refer you to (satisfied) customers but that’s not really going to tell you how "your" service experience will be.
So I agree that I will and always do consider those aspects but price can vary by more than a thousand dollars between dealers.
I hope that by looking at name brand and not Hom* D*pot that I will be working with quality dealers in my area.
Thanks!
Dean
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I hope that by looking at name brand and not Hom* D*pot that I will be working with quality dealers in my area.
Thanks!
Dean
There are no guarantees in life but sticking with Hot Springs, Caldera, Sundance, Jacuzzi and Marquis is a wise choice IMO.
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There are no guarantees in life but sticking with Hot Springs, Caldera, Sundance, Jacuzzi and Marquis is a wise choice IMO.
drober,
Please don't limit yourself to tuo's list....you may not find the spa and/or dealer that is right for you. But please include the manufacturers listed by tuo in your search because they are quality manufacturers. 8)
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drober,
Please don't limit yourself to tuo's list....you may not find the spa and/or dealer that is right for you. But please include the manufacturers listed by tuo in your search because they are quality manufacturers. 8)
I agree as I certainly didn't mean you should limit yourself to ONLY those on my short list as it was meant to be just that, MY short list. There are other spa makers that others endorse as being on THEIR short list for Quality makers and I'm certainly not soing to say they're opinions are inferior to mine (well, not all of them anyway ;D). In reality, sometimes its more important to know who NOT to consider and IMO that would include well known makers such as CalSpas and Thermospas and a few smaller makers who have less than good reputations for Quality and Service. Then again, that's just MY opinion as well but I'm sticking to it.
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Again.. thanks for the replies! Other good names in the spa industry is exactly what I was after. I will see if there are dealers in my area.
I'm sure that I would be happy with Hot Springs or Caldera and the other names mentioned will give me one or two other choices.
I really don’t want ten companies to choose from, more like four.
It's funny because when I decided to buy a spa, the first thing I did was go to Cal spa’s website and found a dealer ( great marketing they do)!
The Cal spa dealer also sold Caldera and said that Cal spa was not really in the same league as HS or Caldera and from there my research began.
Both the local stores offer wet test and at the time I thought to myself no.... but after reading this forum and other research I will definitely be showing off the beer gut and trying the spa's before I commit.
I have to say that both dealers I have been to so far have been EXCEPTIONALY nice! especially the HS dealer.
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I am only 2 weeks into owning my new Hot Spring Envoy, but would have to say that I disagree with Mendocino about Caldera. I owned a Caldera Geneva Utopia before the Envoy. In all honesty, and not to take anything away from the Envoy as it is a really great tub, but it is not as good as the Geneva. In fact, except for the new double Motomessager, which is quite effective, the Caldera excells in every other way.
Having now owned both, but admittedly for only a short time with the HS, I would have to say that in quality both HS and Caldera are essentially identical (and excellent), but in terms of performance and attention to details the Caldera is clearly superior.
One area that is constantly discussed here is the difference in the filtration systems. They are different, but equally effective in my experience so far.
Regards,
Bill
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I am only 2 weeks into owning my new Hot Spring Envoy, but would have to say that I disagree with Mendocino about Caldera. I owned a Caldera Geneva Utopia before the Envoy. In all honesty, and not to take anything away from the Envoy as it is a really great tub, but it is not as good as the Geneva. In fact, except for the new double Motomessager, which is quite effective, the Caldera excells in every other way.
Having now owned both, but admittedly for only a short time with the HS, I would have to say that in quality both HS and Caldera are essentially identical (and excellent), but in terms of performance and attention to details the Caldera is clearly superior.
One area that is constantly discussed here is the difference in the filtration systems. They are different, but equally effective in my experience so far.
Regards,
Bill
Hi BIll...
What I was saying that within the company's family's (Watkins) Hot Springs is at the top of there line with Caldera just a again "slight" step below...there are some things from a build stand point that you just don;t get with the Caldera that are on the Hot Springs....but again it is a very good spa....the same thing would apply to Sundance and Jacuzzi preminum....both are very nice....but Sundance is the slightly upper end tub from the parent company though I think they are getting more and more a like....
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Just an observation here, and might just be me. After looking at the three new models in the hot spring line the past year (Envoy, Vista, and Accolade) it seems that watkins is taking alot of the design ques from their Caldera Line and incorporating them in the Hot Spring line. Look at the "Captains" chairs in the new hot spring models and compare them to the ones on the Caldera Spas.....VERY similar. Like wise with the shell colors, Champagne Opal and Sand. These same shell colors were incorporated on the caldera line BEFORE they were introduced to the Hot Spring line. Maybe it's just me, but this BS about Caldera being a "second rate" product to Hot Spring is just that, BS. In fact they are more similar then different.I don't know how Caldera was prior to Watkins purchasing them but as of today they are one of the best lines of spas on the market today.
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Good observations Poolboy. Hot Springs and Caldera seem to be kept fairly separate but also seem to have influenced each other which is what you'd expect as you tend to take the best from each and use it to improve yourself. In fact, since its dealers are mostly separate you know Watkins isn't going to leave it out there to compete with the other big guys unless it has the ability to do so. I seem to hear some rumblings that Sundance has treated Jacuzzi somewhat as a second banana but I really don't hear Caldera dealers saying the quite the same thing. There is the perception with some that Caldera is a secondary line since it was a smaller player when Watkins bought it but it really has become a stand alone product IMO comparable with Marquis, D1 and Sundance. These things are very subjective but it does seem that the Caldera dealers and most importantly the customers that post on these sites seem to praise the product.
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Pool Boy and spa tech...
You are both right....and as I said...it is a very good product....I think and I noticed it last year that Caldera from a shell design did have seem to be having an influence on Hot Springs....However I still think that the Hot Springs remains there premiere line with Caldera being a very very slight step behind....without going into to to much details you both know that they do not come down the same line..some parts do but some stuff as of now is coming a bit further down south...and also the equipment door.....on Caldera is not the same as the Hot Springs.....( I think you know what I mean ).....
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Menocino,
I am not in the business and don't have your unique insider's perspective. So I don't understand what details you see in the Hot Spring that make it superior to the Caldera.
I do see the following: Both use the same brand of pump, but the motors are 2.5 hp in the Geneva, vs 2.0 hp in the Envoy. Keep in mind these two spas are nearly identical in size. The difference in the strength of the jets is noticable in consequence. The Geneva has a lighted grab handle to help ingress and egress, not so the Envoy. The Geneva has a raised bump on the floor that helps especially shorter people stay in their seats. The Geneva has standard lighting on the outside making it easier and safer to use the tub in the dark. I understand that this is optional for the Envoy, but it is standard on the Geneva. Ergonomics are certainly subjective, but I have now had a half dozen friends who have used both tubs and we all agree that the Geneva is more comfortable. We range in size from about 5-feet to about 6-feet-2 inches. I know that we do not represent a statistically significant sampling, but methinks the Geneva is more comfortable anyway.
As I said before, there does not seem to be any water quality benefit to the more elaborate filtration system in the Envoy. The heaters seem to be the same exact units. Ozonator standard on the Geneva, cost me $200 extra on the Envoy. The ozonator units appear to be identical too. The shell and finish appear to be exactly the same. Diverter controls are the same, although the Geneva's are noisier (bigger pumps?). The electrical controls are different styles, but both work the same.
Please help me to understand what you know that is not obvious to me. Make me feel better. Right now I feel like I paid more for less.
Thanks,
Bill
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Bill
There are two major differences between the Hotspring and Caldera.
One is the shell. Hotspring is one piece and can never delaminate and the Caldera has a fiberglass backing to it and has a possibility to delaminate. The sheel should not be a deciding factor in a spa purchase, but it is a difference.
The warranty on the cabinet for the Hotspring is 5 years versus 3 years for the Caldera.
I would also argue that the filtration is better on the Hotspring, but you say you see no noticeable difference.
I must ask why do you own a Hotspring now if you were so happy with your Caldera?
Chris
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Menocino,
I am not in the business and don't have your unique insider's perspective. So I don't understand what details you see in the Hot Spring that make it superior to the Caldera.
Please help me to understand what you know that is not obvious to me. Make me feel better. Right now I feel like I paid more for less.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill....
first let me say I mean you no disrespect and I truly do not not...but do you know the difference between the words "slight" that I used and the word "Superior" that you used... there are slight differences within the spas and in the Watkins family of spa lines HS is considered to be at the very top of the family tree with Caldera being very good and just slightly a small step below but it does have build differeneces....If someone else here wants to get more into the details of those differences I will let them as I see no need to make any Caldera owner think any less of their spa as they truly are one of the better spas out there and for some there very best out there....If it matters I do think Caldera offers somethings that HS does not like the cabinet lights that are beautiful.....
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Mendocino,
Thank you for your reply, I mean you no disrespect either. The English language is not the most precise instrument for communication, but it is what we have.
You wrote: "...do you know the difference between the words "slight" that I used and the word "Superior"..."
The word slight denotes a small degree of difference, the word superior denotes rank. To clarify further, the difference between two things can be slight and the one that measures ahead of the other would be superior. For example, consider two people who are being ranked by height. One is 6 feet tall, the other is 6-feet and one half inch tall. The difference in their height is slight, but the taller of the two is superior in height.
I appreciate your insight and was not looking for an argument.
Regards,
Bill
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Stay away from Marquis - - I got a lemon which caused more stress than it tried to aleviate.
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Stay away from Marquis - - I got a lemon which caused more stress than it tried to aleviate.
How about letting us know more about this? While you maybe be correct (I have no Marquis dealers near me nor have I ever seen one in person) people are going to doubt your sincerity if all you do is pop up in every Marquis thread slamming them. Looking at your existing posts so far, I don't seen any contributions on any other subject.
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Glenloi,
I agree with wwccall,back your statement up,you are the only one I ever heard bash Marquis like you have.Sounds like from reading your other post that you have a problem with marquis.Let us know of your experience that would posess you to make such statements.
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Stay away from Marquis - - I got a lemon which caused more stress than it tried to aleviate.
I always love these sorts of posts. ::) If this type of thinking is something we all followed, no one would be driving a Ford, Chev, Chrysler product, Toyota, BMW, Lexus, etc as all of these manufacturers have produced "lemons" at some point in their corporate lives.
State your beef but keep it real. I'm sorry you aren't happy with your purchase but for every one of you, there's a 1000 people that are completely satisfied with their Marquis. No, I'm not affiliated with them in any way. ;)
Steve
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Let us know of your experience that would posess you to make such statements.
Maybe the store he works at has letters above the door that resemble C A L S P A or J A C U Z Z I ;D
Steve
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Stay away from Marquis - - I got a lemon which caused more stress than it tried to aleviate.
I'm sure if any of you ever (God Forbid) find yourself on the receiving end of a lemon you might be inclined to post a message to a board such as this... just like Glenloi has done...although I always question statements like that from people with very few posts
You likely have NO idea the frustration involved with having a brand new non-functioning spa that cost you thousands of dollars.
I have been/am in this boat right now with one exception...I am not going to post blasting messages about Marquis. When my tub was working, I loved it like my first born son. Every company can put out on lemon. We found out that our tub was put together on a Friday (probably at 4:48 pm)...but it happens. I've been more upset about the lack of customer service from my dealer...although they did show up today and work for almost 8 hours in 18 degree weather on the darn thing(amazing what the power of the manufacturer bearing down on them will do)....all total they've replaced both pumps, the heater coil, the computer board, two sensors, diverter case and a couple of jets. My fingers are crossed, but it appears to be working right now...and quieter than it ever has before. My tech guy has learned a lot on this tub...his words. He's not a bad guy...just didn't know how to fix it. It's the owner of the dealership that I have real issues with. (another story for another day)
I've had lots of issues as it reaches 102. It is at 95 right now, so my fingers are crossed. I'm hoping to never have to call for service again. Now that the working components of my spa are all newly replaced....sigh....this is something I never want to go through again.
Elle
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Elle,
Anything that you buy that has moving parts, anything mechanical can have problems, it really seems that your dealer has sadly dropped the ball for you...but I as shared with you stay on top of him and you will be taken care of...Unfortunately there are steps and processes that must take place before the Manufacture will become directly invloved....Your dealer is obligated to make all reasonable efforts to fix your spa and in the end if he can not ....You will be taken care of....but he must first do what he is obligated to.....
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Don't get me wrong Elle, I do feel horrible for people in those situations including yourself. This purchased is designed to help relax the mind, body & soul and having problems right out of the gate is a major concern for those of us in retail and at the manufacturing level.
That being said, it's not difficult in most instances to separate a consumer with regrettable issues from a disgruntled salesperson attempting to dissuade the unknowing consumer. Unfortunately, these forums allow the cloak of the unknown and we're often left to make up our own minds as to who is credible. If Glenloi turns out to be a real consumer, I will be the first to apologize but something tells me that won’t need to take place.
I understand that some caring people here have stretched out their hand to help him and get to the bottom of this. The resulting communication will tell all.
Personally, I feel horrible when a consumer spends the time and effort researching spas and parts with income that is substantial only to find themselves in an adverse position such as you Elle. I know we’re all working hard to prevent these sorts of problems in a quality control aspect at the factory level. The issue will always be the individual dealers as humans are made up of complicated parts. Some are wonderful business people and others should be as far away as possible from the public. This, IMO, is the most important part of the purchase. I’ve always said that I would much rather buy a spa from a great dealer selling an average spa than a great spa from an average dealer.
Steve
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Steve,
I bow to you sir..... ;)....serisouly a great post how I think most in the industry feel...the genuine desire to provide the very best service we can...
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Aren't many of the parts of most all of the spas all components that have been purchased from third party manufactures? I am thinking of pumps, ozonators, boards (I saw Balboa on most spas I looked at when doing my research), etc. If these outsourced parts fail for any of the spa "manufacturers", then is that not simply the bad luck of the draw and not necessarily indicative of poor quality control on the part of the spa manufacturer (perhaps poor quality control on the part of the component manufacturer). Things like shell, frame, plumbing are more indicative of manufacturer problems, IMO. One of the things that led me to Marquiss was the 7-year no leak guarantee. I figure they must be pretty comfortable with the quality of their plumbing. Leaks are a big concern for me because I plan on enclosing the spa on three sides (equipment side open, of course.)
Having said all this, Elle's story is nonetheless disturbing because the range of failed items she mentions covers more than just outsourced components. Even if the problems were promptly addressed by my dealer, I would be very disappointed if our spa performs as poorly as Elle's has.
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Having said all this, Elle's story is nonetheless disturbing because the range of failed items she mentions covers more than just outsourced components. Even if the problems were promptly addressed by my dealer, I would be very disappointed if our spa performs as poorly as Elle's has.
I think anyone would disapointed..You mention the third party suppliers.... many ..most of the major manufacture have proprietary items that are made just for them....
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Aren't many of the parts of most all of the spas all components that have been purchased from third party manufactures? I am thinking of pumps, ozonators, boards (I saw Balboa on most spas I looked at when doing my research), etc. If these outsourced parts fail for any of the spa "manufacturers", then is that not simply the bad luck of the draw and not necessarily indicative of poor quality control on the part of the spa manufacturer (perhaps poor quality control on the part of the component manufacturer). Things like shell, frame, plumbing are more indicative of manufacturer problems, IMO. One of the things that led me to Marquiss was the 7-year no leak guarantee. I figure they must be pretty comfortable with the quality of their plumbing. Leaks are a big concern for me because I plan on enclosing the spa on three sides (equipment side open, of course.)
Having said all this, Elle's story is nonetheless disturbing because the range of failed items she mentions covers more than just outsourced components. Even if the problems were promptly addressed by my dealer, I would be very disappointed if our spa performs as poorly as Elle's has.
First off, Thanks Mendo. ;) You can get up now! ;D
I'm going to disagree with a couple points spanewbe. First, quality control incorporates the complete spa as a whole and not just individual parts. I would imagine that any component must meet certain guidelines prior to shipping. Failure rates are very low in these devises within a new spa though it can happen. In the 2 companies I've worked for, testing and quality control at many levels helps alleviate the many "start-up problems" that can happen. Most major brands embrace this I would imagine. All of these parts gathered from multiple manufacturers as you mentioned, have to operate harmoniously as 1 unit. Quality control measures this very closely considering many of these spas are shipped half way around the world!
You stated "Things like shell, frame, and plumbing are more indicative of manufacturer problems, IMO".Shells and frames are structural components that very rarely are an issue for not only a newly delivered spa, for also for the life of the spa. Plumbing can be somewhat of a concern but all of the Beachcomber and Hydropool spas that I've seen from the factory are ran at the factory in multiple stages to prevent missing glue joints or human error prior to leaving the factory.
Steve
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If I had to guess,GLENLOI is possibly a sniper for CAL SPA.But than again it is just a guess.But I think it is a pretty good guess.
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Has anybody received a response from him in a PM as to his model and ser#?
Steve
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Not that i have heard of.And i don't think anybody will.He probally doesn't even relize that Marquis has a serial number and doesn't know where to look.I think the only spa that he has been soaking in is a Cal.
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If I had to guess,GLENLOI is possibly a sniper for CAL SPA.But than again it is just a guess.But I think it is a pretty good guess.
Well, unless I get an opportunity to help make it right I might have to agree.... Someone who is really having problems of that magnitude welcome any help they can get!