Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Vinny on January 12, 2005, 04:41:55 pm
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After reading threads about cloudy water and other threads that state to adjust filter timing it got me thinking about the tub I'm going to buy.
The Artesian Island tubs with a circ pump don't have any additional filtering times. The filtering option is used for the ozonator run time (I believe this is true for the Platinum and Gold series as well).
But the pump runs at 11 GPM and if I did my math correctly will filter my tub close to 40 times a day (400 gallon tub). My question is - do all circ pumps run at that volume? Or is this a higher volume circ pump than normal.
I guess a question would be does an Artesian tub with a circ pump have more water quality issues than other tubs?
As you can see I have time to think about the "stupid" things in life!
Thanks!
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Vinny,
I do not know the answer to your question but from what I understand 11gpm is fairly high for a circ pump Beachcombers offers one that runs at a higher GPM but from what I understand most are 6 or 7 gpm. My question if any knows the answer is are these circ pumps running at 6,7 11 GPM or are they running "UP TO" 6,7 11 depending on conditions.
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I wanna say that Artesian has one of the higher flow circ pumps but do not know all of them to be sure.
The other thought I have is just how much filtering is "over-kill" now. Yrs ago you could have a 2 speed motor kick on low a few times a day and as long as your chemilcals were good have no filtering issues. Even local codes for swimming pools state the water must be turned over only once in a 24hr period. So spas turn the water over 40 x's a day. Hot Spring has a 500 gal spa with over 300 sq ft of filtering area. I sell pools that have 15,000 gallons with only 150 sq ft filters.
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Filtration is only one aspect to good watercare. You can have a system that runs 24 hours a day and still have lousy water.
Beachcomber's is almost 30gpm but they use a 48 frame circ pump which draws 0.6 amps.
The key is drawing as little power as possible and filter as much as possible. One other benefit to Hydropool's Self Clean system. ;) Sorry... ::)
There are benefits when ozone is used to have longer filtration cycles but again, does the benefit outweigh the cost?
I suggest that a spa that filters 4 hours a day can have excellent water ( I know this first hand) when proper watercare is maintained.
Mendo - What do you mean by "conditions"? What conditions would cause these numbers to fluctuate other than age and deterioration of the impellor?
Steve
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Mendo - What do you mean by "conditions"? What conditions would cause these numbers to fluctuate other than age and deterioration of the impellor?
Steve
What about if the filters are dirty...I know spas can be plumbed diffenretly.....as example some might have 90 degree bends some only use sweep elbows....all having to do with water flow so if a circ is rated at 7gpm but the spa is built differently than would it still pull 7gpm
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Thanks for the responses!
I knew about the Beachcomber pump and my assumption when asking was water chemistry is OK. I just have been reading "increase filtering time" and I started thinking maybe this could be a problem and possibly 40x a day water changes might not be enough.
Mendo,
I agree with the "conditions" - I'm sure that flow rates assume that the filter is new and everything is working perfectly.
Salesdvl,
I have my pool turning over the water over a little over once a day and at 13,000 I think I have a 36 SF filter (DE). I thought I read somewhere that tubs need a higher turnover rate.
Steve,
The sales brochure for Artesian says that the circ pump delivers real cost savings and perfect water is always waiting ... ;D and who knows they may also throw in a microban filter for the circ pump too!
Thanks again!
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What about if the filters are dirty...I know spas can be plumbed diffenretly.....as example some might have 90 degree bends some only use sweep elbows....all having to do with water flow so if a circ is rated at 7gpm but the spa is built differently than would it still pull 7gpm
Some good points there Mendo.
Vinny - Well if the sales brochure says so..it must be true! ;) ;D
Steve
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No, most circ pumps don't turn over that much water!
I'm not a huge fan of circ pumps and feel the only real benefit to them is constant ozonation. If you can accomplish the same thing not adding another system and potentially get more water turn over with the same or even less energy draw then why even put one in.
I have always been a fan of adding less systems, jets and plumbing is better....
It's a great selling tool though ;)
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Stuart and Mendo,
I thought Marquis had a circ pump on their systems. I didn't have a chance to see one in person while looking, but I thought I saw it on their website or maybe they used to and took it off.
This brings up another question though and this applies to my tub as well since it has an adjustable ozonator timer - what good is ozone IF it's not running 24/7. If a non circ pump kicks on for 6 to 8 hours a day and only produces ozone for that time is ozone really doing anything? As for my tub - my dealer said to only have it running 8 hours a day - 2x4 hours. He said that all the tubs they set up only have their ozonators running for 8 hours and they have had no water problems.
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Vinny,
Marquis does not use a circ pump they strongly believe the benefits of hi flow filtering out weigh the advantage of 24 hour ozone...I think both when done properly can work well...
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This brings up another question though and this applies to my tub as well since it has an adjustable ozonator timer - what good is ozone IF it's not running 24/7.
That makes me think of a question as an answer... What good is shocking if you don't do it 24/7?
Not to belabor the ozone debate, ozone is "doing its job" as long as it's running but it is not known if its effectiveness reaches the point of diminishing return or not.
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Ozone does not need to run 24 hours a day to offer a benefit. I tend to be of the belief that ozone running 24/7 can have more harmful effects on your cover, jets, pillows, etc than any benefit it will give.
8 hours in 24 is plenty for ozone to oxidize waste. Keep in mind that we're talking about a residential spa here and not a commercial setting.
Steve
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I personnaly think that the more the water is filtered the better. Why not it only makes sense. I guess if it was running for a 24 hour period with no one in the tub during those 24 hours it wouldn't be catching much in the filters. But is it harming anything....I wouldn't think so. My tub has a 24 hr circ pump, rated at 30 gal per minute and runs at .5 amps. The one thing I do like about it is when I add my dichlor I don't have to sit there with the tub running for a while to mix it up. I just get out add it and swish it around with my hand shut the cover and in I go. I find the circ pump does a great job mixing it through out the water.
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Vinny,
Marquis does not use a circ pump they strongly believe the benefits of hi flow filtering out weigh the advantage of 24 hour ozone...I think both when done properly can work well...
The funny thing is that Marquis is truly a company that can say "Been there, done that" about many things. They did cir pumps for many years but the fail rate for both the pumps and the low flow heaters was more than they were happy with. When they took them out the cost of the tub actually went down!
Being fair I have to say that there have been many achievments in both circ pumps and low flow heaters since then....
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That makes me think of a question as an answer... What good is shocking if you don't do it 24/7?
Not to belabor the ozone debate, ozone is "doing its job" as long as it's running but it is not known if its effectiveness reaches the point of diminishing return or not.
Everything has a point of diminishing returns.
I have to say that "shocking" if your referring to chlorine is not needed 24/7 - chlorine/ bromine is needed to kill either bacteria and/or algae and once it has done it's job whether the initial dose is 100 PPM or 0.1 PPM it just sits there until it needs to do it again (I do know that in a spa it does get dissipated by the heat so it's not just sitting there). Once you kill with chlorine and or bromine you don't need any other item in the water to be there - not N2 or ozone or anything else. I personally don't know how effective ozone is - the limited research that I have done leads me to believe that ozone isn't the disinfectant that it's said to be (in spas). The best argument for ozone (and N2) was on Doc's board and it comes from a microbiologist - ozone (and N2) MAY help keep bacteria down once chlorine does it's killing. I can agree to this statement.
All of the articles I've read said ozone must be on 24/7 in order to do any good. My dealer and now Steve have been the only ones (as far as I know) who have said 24/7 isn't needed. Maybe others have said it but I didn't see their posts.
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24/7 ozone is not needed
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I tend to be of the belief that ozone running 24/7 can have more harmful effects on your cover, jets, pillows, etc than any benefit it will give.
Steve
Ah, now that all depends. Several manufacturers (including Artesian) offer ozone systems with little to no off-gassing. So, you enjoy the benefits without the side effects (to health, covers, pillows, etc.).
Artesian offers their ProPure water management/ozone system that I think is absolutely amazing. When I was at Artesian's mfg. facility recently, I saw a prototype in action that just blew me away. They tested their ProPure system with a full-blown pool ozonator and a 3HP 'Wow' pump (high volume). The clear plastic tubes of the first 3 chambers of the ProPure system turned completely yellow due to a reaction with the ozone gas. The final 2 tubes remained perfectly clear, indicating little to no ozone just prior to the water's re-entry into the spa. With this system there is then no chance for the pillows or cover to be damaged by the ozone, nor is there the potential health risk associated with ozone inhalation.
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I will keep it simple, the low flow circulation pumps belong in the environment they were originally attended for, which is a small garden pond! NOT SPAS!
Nobody can logically state that lower flow (less turnover) and less turbulence will equate to cleaner water.
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I will keep it simple, the low flow circulation pumps belong in the environment they were originally attended for, which is a small garden pond! NOT SPAS!
Nobody can logically state that lower flow (less turnover) and less turbulence will equate to cleaner water.
So, Gary, are you saying that any spa with a circ pump has inherently inferior filtration to those spas that don't? Hmmm....I guess that crystal water I see in my spa is but a figment of my imagination?
Face it, Gary.....there are many approaches taken by spa manufacturers regarding filtration systems, insulation techniques, therapy systems, etc., etc. ad nauseum....either the manufacturer does it well, does it lousy or somewhere between. But don't try to convince anyone on this board that any spa with a circ pump has inferior filtration....that duckie don't float.....
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All I know is that my spa has the circulation pump which constantly filters the water thru one filter, which I run 24/7, and a low speed massage pump which I program to run for 30 minutes every 6 hours and my water is clean. Whatever it is, it works.
Brewman
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I wonder how things would be if you just ran your jet pump for 30 minutes every 6 hours...
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Good question, but I think I'll stay the program.
The filter on the circ pump is disposable, and filters tighter than the pleated one.
I don't want to upset the apple cart.
To reset the circ pump run time, I'd have to get out the owners manual, and read the procedure, and all that icky stuff.
Brewman
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What is getting lost here IMHO is that circ pumps have other benefits besides filtration.
Decible volume - Any circ pump I have come accross is quieter than any massage pump on low speed.
Heater effeciency - Circ pumps move the water much slower than massage pumps on low. This allows the water that is passing over the heater more time to absorb heat.
Pump efficiency (GPMvHP)- Rather than having your primary pump move water through the heater, with a circ pump that water goes straight to the jets. Take a Beachcomber for example, since they offer a circ as an option. The models without circs discharged water out the top through a 90 sweep to a 180 sweep to the heater. With the circ pump, the massage pump had just a 90 sweep back to the tub. The circ did the 90/180 thing. Same model, same hard ware (other than the circ) there is a noticeable power difference out of the jets.
I may be just fueling the debate here, but I feel that a circ pump has more benefits to offer than the potential for cleaner water, which seems to be the debate here.
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People:
I'M SORRY - This wasn't meant to open up a can of worms!
All I wanted to know was if a 11 GPM circ pump COULD cause water clarity problems being I don't have a message pump "filter cycle" and IF 11 GPM was considered a lot in the circ pump world!
The secondary question of ozone happened by accident - I was just wanted thoughts about non 24/7 ozone.
I really didn't want it to get to mud slinging!
For Cgar,
My dealer talked me out of that ozone option - they felt that it was a costly (they didn't tell me how much) option and it really didn't have any proven effectiveness in their opinion - sanitizing chemicals are still needed (I'm paraphrasing).
Thanks to all!
Vinny
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My dealer talked me out of that ozone option - they felt that it was a costly (they didn't tell me how much) option and it really didn't have any proven effectiveness in their opinion - sanitizing chemicals are still needed (I'm paraphrasing).
My experience is that ozone (especially CD) is worth it. Now some may argue that the cost does not equal what you gain $$ in using less chemicals and they are right but the other thing you gain is cleaner water and less hassle/stress over water clarity issues and after seeing the frustraion of owners who have water issues I think its worth it. Then again, thats just my opinion.
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For Cgar,
My dealer talked me out of that ozone option - they felt that it was a costly (they didn't tell me how much) option and it really didn't have any proven effectiveness in their opinion - sanitizing chemicals are still needed (I'm paraphrasing).
Thanks to all!
Vinny
I'm not sure what your dealer is selling the ProPure option for, but at our cost I certainly wouldn't call it expensive. And, I wonder what they were basing their lack of "proven effectiveness" comment on. I think that would be a tough one for them to back up (based on our experience).
Oh, and what you see above hasn't reached the 'mud slinging' stage... yet. No need to apologize in my opinion. Healthy debate is a good thing. Filtration, like other brand-specific aspects of hot tubs will always generate 'discussion'.
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My last post made it sound like I wasn't getting ozone, I am getting ozone (the dealer includes it in her price for tub). I was referring to the ozone upgrade.
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I am getting ozone (the dealer includes it in her price for tub). I was referring to the ozone upgrade.
Really curious.... what does Artesian consider an "ozone upgrade"?
I don't see how one can "upgrade" a functional ozone system...
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They have an option of an ozone mixing chamber(s) as Cgar mentioned in his first post
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The upgrade would be from a standard ozone system to the ProPure system. The ProPure system has an extended mixing/suspension chamber that drastically reduces or eliminates ozone off-gassing. So, you get all of the benefits of ozone without the harmful side effects (health-wise as well as damage to the underside of the cover, pillows, etc.).
There are a number of manufacturers that offer premium ozone systems with little to no off-gassing. Artesian certainly isn't the only one.
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Interesting... without an extended mixing chamber there is, arguably, little to zero effectiveness in an ozone system, aside from all the detriments that have been pointed out; I had assumed that every ozone system included a sufficient chamber - my bad. Thanks!
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aside from all the detriments that have been pointed out; I had assumed that every ozone system included a sufficient chamber - my bad. Thanks!
Not all. Dimension 1 makes it standard. Artesian and Arctic make it an upgradable option. I do not think my list is complete, please add to it if you can.
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Interesting... without an extended mixing chamber there is, arguably, little to zero effectiveness in an ozone system, aside from all the detriments that have been pointed out; I had assumed that every ozone system included a sufficient chamber - my bad. Thanks!
Hey Hey....slow down....what makes you think common sense and adding only things that actually work and or provide a real benefit would apply..... ;).
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I do believe that HotSprings offers the little, to no off-gassing feature as well.
As for ozone systems without mixing chambers... they definitely do exist. In fact, with some manufacturers, the ozone generator will actually shut off when the jet pump is turned on (in order to avoid inhalation of the gas while in the tub). Unfortunately this doesn't save the pillows or the underside of the cover. In this approach the ozone gas is injected fairly close to the water's re-entry into the spa. This is evidenced by the strong ozone smell above the surface of the water.
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Sundances ozone by passes when the jet pumps are on high speed, according to my local dealer.
Beachcombers bypass unless there is a circ pump installed.
Colemans bypass.
I am sure this list would be longer than the list of spas that do ozonate while the jet pumps are on high.
It is UL and ETL that advise the spa manufacturer whether or not their ozone system should bypass with the jet pumps on high.
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HTM,
By bypass, I assume you mean the controller shuts off the ozonator when a therapy jet is activated. If so, the Balboa controller on my LSX does the same and will not re-energize the ozonator until 1 hr. has passed after the last therapy motor shuts down. I'm not sure if this applies for the 2 cycles when the controller brings therapy motors online for additional filtering/purging. 8)
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WSD;
Your ozone is most likely working during the filter cycle. Some ozone systems dont have adequate plumbing/chambers to accomadate safe ozone injection while the jet pumps are on high.
The manufacturers program those tubs to bypass while on high, assuming the jets are on high because someone is getting a massage. The one hour waiting period is to ensure that you are not inhaling live ozone while "soaking" with the jets off or on low.
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The Sundance ozone system shuts off when any pump is manually turned on, either high or low speed.
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My belief on ozone is that anything that allows you to put less chemicals, in the water you are getting into on a regular basis is good for you. Whatever you submerge your body in, is getting into your body. Even more so in hot water. As long as the water is sanitized and clean, the method of getting there can be different, but sanitized water that has less ppm in chemicals, is much healthier.
Not all ozone systems are equal, and the amounts of chemicals they reduce will vary. I am a real believer in keeping any water that my body is in as pure and chemical free as possible. I use shower filters, reverse osmosis, and ozone systems, for my house, pool and spa.
My point is that a tub that has clear water, but higher chemical levels to acheive it, is not as healthy for you as water that is just as clear and sanitized but has very low chemical levels. Just my opinion, I am a health nut, and I also try to eat only organic food!!
www.naturalcures.com is an awesome website, if your interested finding out what kind of garbage is in our mass produced foods, how to make you homes water supply more healthy, and the deceptions of the food and drug industry. Sorry a little off topic ;D
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Sorry a little off topic ;D
Stabone,
By all means, stay off topic! ;D I really enjoy your off topic posts, and agree with the above completely.
-Ed
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Stabone;
It sounds like you think ozone is not a chemical. I guess it depends on how you want to define chemical.....
Oxygen is both a gas and a chemical. Ozone is three oxygen molocules.....
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Man made chemicals!! Why would you sell or by ozone if you think higher levels of Chlorine or Bromine are fine. Your body needs oxygen, not chlorine. We get so much chlorine in our systems from drinking water, taking showers, baths, etc.
Are you arguing to argue, because you don't like the brand of tub I sell, or did you have an opinion, do you not agree with what I said???
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Isn't the ozone produced in your tub the result of a man made component (not to mention how "toxic" ozone is considered)? And by the way it is Oxygen that ultimately kills us... oxidation baby!
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Wow, opinions are like ass-holes, and their are plenty of them on this site. (Opinions I mean) If you think ozone is toxic, don't use it. I fill my tub with natural spring water, have a peak ozone system, I add 4 oz of granular every 2 weeks, have never had to add a ph or alk. The tub I had before, had a standard CD ozone, (only ran with pump while filtering, or pump was operating). I used a Bromine salt weekly, and non-chlorine shock after use. Water had an average of 1 to 3 ppm of bromine. Which is low and I felt comfortable with that.
You can put yourself and family in whatever type of water treatment you prefer. I'll take mine that doesn't even read a ppm on a test stripe. And keeps my ph neutral. It also, feels and smells cleaner than any hot tub water I have been in before!!!
I used to think ozone was a crock, (and most of the old systems were). Ozone has come a long way, and I still believe has a long way to go. A couple years back I decided to learn more about ozone, and I am continuing to try and learn more.
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Man made chemicals!! Why would you sell or by ozone if you think higher levels of Chlorine or Bromine are fine. Your body needs oxygen, not chlorine. We get so much chlorine in our systems from drinking water, taking showers, baths, etc.
Are you arguing to argue, because you don't like the brand of tub I sell, or did you have an opinion, do you not agree with what I said???
Stabone;
I do not know how many times I have to say it, but here goes:
I have no problem with the design, look, functionality, energy efficiency etc of Arctic Spas. They appear to be good tubs. They would not have cracked the worlds top 20 if they were bad.
I have a problem with the way many Arctic dealers market the product. Claims of superiority and instilling fear in consumers is what I dislike.
I am still not sure about you. You seem quite smart and logical at times. Other times you completely miss what is being said and make comments I do not understand at all (your comments about hottest chicks.....missed the point, the boat and who knows what else).
I did disagree with your statement. As empologation and I pointed out, ozone in a spa is a man made chemical. Just because you like it alot does not change this.
Stop this miopic "if someone disagrees with me they are anti-Arctic" thinking. Are that insecure about the product?
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Read the thread, is it not as amazing for a hot tub to get a higher rating on a list as it gains popularity, but is still built the same as it was before it was on the list. As to why someone becomes more or less sexy due to their popularity for the year?? I was just being sarcastic, to the comments, on the changing of the hot tub ranks.
I thought it was rather witty!!
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Dude you are missing the point.
Do you think consumers vote on the Poolandspa.com website? Do you think its based on sales? NO
It is common knowledge that spending $100,000 to advertise with pool and spa magazine/.com gets you a 4 star rating. $75K gets you three stars. $50K gets you 2 etc.
Do you think that Jessica Simpson or Carmen Elektra's agent paid Time magazine for a good sexy rating?
I supose its possible, but it diverts from the point which was that the ratings (P&S.com) are bogus.
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I thought it was rather witty!!
Yes. You are full of WIT
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I understood your point stabone....I thought it was a clever analogy as well...in a way. ;D
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I to in another way,am saying the same thing. But why are you not speaking of all the manufactures on the list, and only singling out one. The lists have no credibility. And change year by year with little or no change in the actual products. Much the same as Jessica Simpson is no better looking this year than last, but has a higher ranking. Due to marketing, money, success, whatever.
I just want to know why, you have singled Arctic out. No one from Arctic threw this star rating out, our said, we are better we have 4 star rating. We don't care and know it is BS. Why not talk about the rankings as a whole, not just Arctic. And you won't have a problem with me then. OK, DUDE!!!
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Getting back to circ pumps and ozone.
The mixing chamber technology is new(er) technology that wasn't available probably 2 years ago on most tubs regardless of brand. I would probably guess that most people with any brand of tub over 2 years old have an ozonator hooked up to probably 10 feet of tubing going into their tub unless they bought a mixing chamber option based on my looking on the internet at tubs for a few years.
D1 was actually the first that I saw that had an extended mixing chamber. But the funny thing about the D1 (I saw this about a year ago) was they used an UV bulb ozonator. The dealer gave me some blurb that UV IS the way to go and that the cheaper CD ozonator couldn't produce the consistent ozone that the UV could.
As far as ozone's effectiveness I don't believe there's any scientific proof that ozone in a hot tub really works and IF there is proof I haven't been able to locate any on the internet. The stuff about ozone disinfection that I've located is about drinking water and it seems that the technique used is somewhat different and costly.
As I said, my dealer talked me out of the mixing chamber option based on their belief that ozone at this time isn't 100% proven effective and he has his customers running the ozonator for only 8 hours a day because of the possible damaging affects of ozone. It is their opinion and based on my LIMITED knowledge base I do agree with them on the ozone effectiveness.
But that may not hold true in 2-5 years from now as ozone technology is changing from what I see.
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I think Vinny you are right and that many are still learning about it....I know some manufactures who thought that 25ft of for a contact chamber was right, to learn that shortening to about 18 seems to be more effective.....as some have also learned with regards to UV that it is not the bulb but the ballast that burns out and weakens with use....
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I think Vinny you are right and that many are still learning about it....I know some manufactures who thought that 25ft of for a contact chamber was right, to learn that shortening to about 18 seems to be more effective.....as some have also learned with regards to UV that it is not the bulb but the ballast that burns out and weakens with use....
Mendo,
I just have to say, I'm sooo proud....snif....you've become an old pro in such a short time! ;)
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Just to clear the air....D-1 has been using a mixing chamber for MANY years now. A lot longer then 2 years I might add. They were also the FIRST manufacturer to incorporate True 24HR ozonation, even while the jet pumps are engaged.
Do circ pumps have a high failure rate??? Yes and no. Depends on how well the customer takes care of there spa. Cutting the power to the spa, or putting it in a stand by mode before taking your filters out is a good way to prevent damage to a circ pump. If you don't take this precaution the circ pump continues to draw water through the filter well, thus pulling debris such as hair into the circ pump. This subsequently over time will clog the impeller of the circ pump. I've asked our Spa tech what was the most common cause for problems in circ pumps, he said the above. And he's been at this for almost 20 years.
Bottom line: Circ pumps save you the consumer money by increasing the amount and duration of filtration which in turn lowers the amount of chemicals it takes to keep your spas water clean. I still haven't figured out why we all argue over how a circ pump can't do the job of jet pumps when it comes to filtration, or vice versa. All i know is that a hot tub will use way more energy while YOU are using it with the pumps on high speed for an hour then that lil circ pump will use over the course of a couple WEEKS.
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I to in another way,am saying the same thing. But why are you not speaking of all the manufactures on the list, and only singling out one
If you lookon the Master Spa Stell Frame thread, you will notice that the four star system was brought by me, but with no reference to Arctic. I was talking about another 4 star manufactuer who's frame fell apart after two years.
You came back with a suggestion on construction that quite obviously was a reference to Arctic.
I made another example to make light of the rating system that referred to Beachcombers bounce from 4-3-4-3 in a year.
The lists have no credibility. And change year by year with little or no change in the actual products. Much the same as Jessica Simpson is no better looking this year than last, but has a higher ranking. Due to marketing, money, success, whatever.
When you started this analogy, it appeared as though you were defending the ratings, or you simply don't understand how they are calculated.
I just want to know why, you have singled Arctic out.
I addressed this above.
No one from Arctic threw this star rating out, our said, we are better we have 4 star rating. We don't care and know it is BS.
Someone at Arctic cares, otherwise they would not have paid to get the rating.
Why not talk about the rankings as a whole, not just Arctic.
I did.
And you won't have a problem with me then. OK, DUDE!!!
I guess we don't have a problem then....