Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: autoplay on December 08, 2004, 08:53:19 pm
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I know even less about Arctic tubs,compared to what I knew of em 3 days ago.
Where can a person go to get a real education on Arctic Tubs?
P.S. MOD Man.....When you gonna close that Arctic Circle? ;)
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http://goarctic.com
You can learn more there.
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Hi everyone, don't jump on me and I have to say I was a little scared to come on here after reading some of those forums. I have an Arctic Tundra I think a signature , has 2 pumps . It is my second Arctic, and if you want to hear more information I don't think this is the place to get it, I read a couple of pages on the arctic vs the world forum. The gentleman from arctic however was not the only one side steping questions! And more than a couple times complimented other products, and brands. Anyway I don't want to be involved, find a dealer and see these tubs you will be glad you did.
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How coincidental! Two more Arctic folks signing on for the first time tonight right after stabone signs off with his insulting remarks? We go quite awhile without little to no Arctic representation and shortly after the VP of the company comes out on the low end of a debate we have several pop up within a week! ??? ???
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Although you wouldn't be able to tell from number of my posts, I have been frequenting this site daily for over six months.
I purchased an Arctic Summit Signature Series tub in August. Much of the information on which to purchase was based from this site.
I do not post often as I have more questions than answers - and many on this forum provide sensible information and usually answer any interests I might have before I need to ask.
I do not wish to get involved in any debate but for the record:
In my very short time owning my tub I have been happy. It is hot when I get in and stays hot when I'm not. My electric bill is respectable and my neighbours think I'm the best thing since sliced bread.
There is no Arctic support found here on this site. This does not alarm me in the least. I am a Canadian who wanted to purchase a tub built in Canada. I tested/researched Hydropool, Polar, Beachcomber seriously. My wife and liked the Arctic better. That's just our opinion. I do not feel like the dealer in any way sold me some hype. They were professional on all levels. My wife and I expect to continue sitting under the snowy limbs counting the stars and enjoying our tub.
I would also like to point out that even though the Arctic guy was often misguided, he wasn't the only one being unprofessional.
Cheers
Jc
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if you want to hear more information I don't think this is the place to get it
Actually, this is a great board on which to get information. The problem with stabone is that he didn't realize that many people here have gone through many engineering debates in the past.
People on here are either:
1) Dealers
2) Hot tub geeks
3) Shoppers
Most posters, I would wager, are 1, followed by 2, followed by 3.
Stabone went into the Arctic pitch and got very insulting and was buried with the same vitriole he spewed.
Search these forums to get substance on the following items:
1) Circulation pump or not?
2) How to support the plumbing
3) Type of bases
4) Methods of filtration
5) Full foam bversus thermopane insulation
6) Types of thermopane insulation
7) The fallacy of # jets and HP ratings
8 ) Adequate (and overkill) R-factors.
9) Energy efficiency and operating cost
10) chemical usage and maintenance ease
Arctic, as I have heard, is an OK tub with a big price tag and an over-the-top sales pitch, which is required to sell an "ok" tub at a large price.
Some suspicious claims I've heard from arctic people on this forum:
1) Their single filter provides "the equivalent of" 900sq ft of filtration at 1 micron and must be replaced twice a year.
There are several problems with this, from claims to actual usage if the claims were true.
2) Arctic does not need the heater to heat the water. Arctic, like many tubs, recycles pump heat back into the water. This claim is true, it is the uniqueness of the claim which is bogus. Additionally, it is not possible to control how much heat radiates up and it becomes difficult to keep the temp steady (this is called heat creep). This is especially difficult in the summer.
3) Arctic plumbing uses better flex piping. This piping is heavier and requires more support, which, based on discussions in this forum, does not exist.
4) Arctic insulates the cabinet, not the shell and this is a good thing. This can cause the shell to pull in, provides no good support of plumbing or shell, and makes pump motors run in a hotter environment, which is bad for them.
5) Arctic equipment is not kept out in the cold. Arctic equipment runs in the heated inner air space which causes more stress on the equipment. To prevent motor burnout Arctic cuts slits in the cabinet to allow air in, which, oddly, eradicates their thermolock design. Since the equip is INSIDE the heated area, you must vent the heated area, which will destroy the heated area on cold and/or windy days. Most manufacturers foam and insulate the SHELL and leave the hot-running equipment in a vented area for a reason.
6) The Arctic fiberglass base is the best out there
These bases can fail for several reasons because of what they are made of. Microcracks are caused by sliding and moisture seeping up from the base (concrete, wood, peblles, whichever). There are much better bottom-base materials to be used here.
7) Arctic uses the best covers around, and that saves you money . After the first 2 inches of foam you get very little extra insulation benefit. Worse, heat doesn't "rise" (hot air does, which is different than heat). Heat leaks to where it is cold, like down into that cold fiberglass bottom, or out through those vents that the equipment needs to operate.
8 ) Arctic tubs are built like a polar bear. This is true. Go gut a polar bear, crawl inside, and you very may well recreate the Arctic experience.
9) Arctic tubs runs more efficiently than competitors . Bunk. A study was done which showed Hot Springs and Arctic being very efficient. This was done to put Arctic in league with a FF, established dealer. To be brief, the test did not target many of arctic's weaknesses, especially with regards to wind which would greatly affect the thermolock via the equipment ventilation slots. Arctic does not claim to cost less money per month to run than any other tub.
10) Arctic filtration is the best. No. A single filter clogs very quickly, especially one with only 1 micron holes in it. Since Arctic does NOT use no-bypass filtration, as the filter clogs (which happens pretty quick at 1 micron) water will more easily bypass the filter.
11) There is no 11, Spinal Tap be darned. If I've lied above, others will point it out right quick.
There are many other points to be made regarding ozonators, heaters, shell design, jet placement, warranty honoring, it's just too late to go into it.
All my info comes from reading these boards and just a few months of hot tub nerdy research. I'm not a dealer.
"Fight Arctic Sales Pitches -- Get An Education"
No doubt people own arctic spas and enjoy them. Most probably, they have never owned a more mainstream spa before, either. The problem isn't the tub. If someone wants to overpay for a so-so tub there are much worse ways to do so. But don't go dropping $11k (can't remember if this was the retail price or not) for a tundra and think you couldn't have gottom something nicer for $7k.
The problem is the misconception by some dealers that Arctic is a religion. Worse, it is a sales pitch which uses "proof by analogy" and "pseudo-science" to trap people unfamiliar with hot tubs.
-Ed
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Ed,
This is by far on of your best posts! Informative, to the point and well thought out! Thank You.....
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I agree. Bravo, Ed. I especially liked your comment on point #7 (covers).
Brewman
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;D Thank you!
But, also, thank yourselves. This is information that has been gleaned from listening, and discussing, these items with all of the very knowledgable people on this board.
We can all be nerdy about something, but what made me nerdy about hot tubs was the good and honest technical discussions that occur here.
To imply that there is not much information to be gained here because many refute the Arctic sales pitch, well, that just got the ol' fingers typing!
-Ed
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Ed, I have take exception with #3. Arctic does use different hose. They use Torsion FlexPipe. I dont think anyone has disputed its existence (I for one have seen it). The debate is over Arctic's claim of superiority of this hose. The comment has been made "If this pipe is so much beter, why isn't anyone else using it?"
HTM
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If anything after 2" of insulation is sufficient, why do so many companies foam fill their spas? The claim I keep hearing is, "it is more efficient". That would seem in contravention to one of their own's comments.
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Ed, I have take exception with #3. Arctic does use different hose. They use Torsion FlexPipe. I dont think anyone has disputed its existence (I for one have seen it). The debate is over Arctic's claim of superiority of this hose. The comment has been made "If this pipe is so much beter, why isn't anyone else using it?"
HTM
Oops, I didn't mean that the piping didn't exist. I meant that someone (stuart maybe?) had said that this type of piping is heavier and required more support and that the support for the piping did not exist.
Many thermopane tub manufacturers place foam on the piping in part for insulation, and in part for support.
But if this is incorrect, please let me know and I'll modify the original post.
-Ed
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You are missinformed. Our Warranty is shown right on our website. We are hiding nothing. Ask any customer, or dealer, we go to great lengths to meet our warranty commitment.
So James, being in the upper echelon of your company I have to ask, does Arctic condone the lack of professionalism that has been portrayed by those that have been posting here lately including one that says he's a factory rep? Here, I will give you some examples;
Stabone left us with the closing comment of what he did best.
what I do best selling spas and pumping chicks!
nelg states that he is a factory rep so I assume with that title he “represents” the company?
on: Dec 8th, 2004, 11:04pm nelg PM’ed me with this message….
With a name like Stuart, you must be gay, am i right?
Just a thought.
Sounds like a first class professional!
There where several other comments from Arctic people that were volatile, harsh and childish however the moderator deleted most of them.
(In that light, Moderator, this is not an attack on Arctic nor is it in any way meant to be disrespectful towards Mr. Keirstead. I simply would like the company’s view of how they have been represented over the last few days! I think this is an important post for that reason and something they should even answer directly to you!)
Again James, please tell us your perspective of this representation and if it is the tone of the company in general or just uncontrollable salesmen and Reps?
Thanks,
Stuart
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If anything after 2" of insulation is sufficient, why do so many companies foam fill their spas? The claim I keep hearing is, "it is more efficient". That would seem in contravention to one of their own's comments.
I understand where you coming from there JP, but I think you know the answer. No one is claiming that 10" of insultion is needed. Yes there is a diminishing return after x", I beleive it varies from one insulation to another (3-4"). After that the benfits that FF'ers claim are not energy efficiency but noise dB, plumbing support etc etc.
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If anything after 2" of insulation is sufficient, why do so many companies foam fill their spas? The claim I keep hearing is, "it is more efficient". That would seem in contravention to one of their own's comments.
That isn't quite the difference between full foam and thermopane. To be short, FF says the solid block of foam supports the piping and makes the tub quieter and vibrate less. TP says foam on the pipes and shell is all you need and extra air cavity space makes maintenance easier. When done right, both have energy efficiency in the ball park. FF is harder to dig through if you have a leak (through some techs say it isn't a biggie) TP may leak more because the piping hangs more (Through most TP people say it doesn't happen).
The problem with the cover is that the heat doesn't escape through the 2 inches of foam, it escapes through the sides where there is just a thiner lip of vinyl/leather/whatever.
Make a cover out of 4 FOOT thick foam and you still have the same thin flaps around the edges. Well, the extra weight would probably help with the seal, but putting some weights on the tub would help with that, too. Hey! Maybe that's why all the Arctic people are standing on the tub! To get a better seal on it by pushing down on the "lid"!
Now, if someone made a cover that dropped all the way over the spa, that would be something different. It could be "the spa garage". If any of you market it, give me props. ;D
But Arctic's claim that the extra 2 inches they stick on their cover makes a difference is very suspect.
-Ed
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on: Dec 8th, 2004, 11:04pm nelg PM’ed me with this message….
:o Apparently, Arctic is good at giving the cold shoulder!
-Ed
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:o Apparently, Arctic is good at giving the cold shoulder!
What was the warranty thing? It seems the posts were deleted?
-Ed
No they were not deleted. I posted this from another topic to make sure Mr. Keirstead did not see it. I doubt he's giving me a "cold shoulder" but more likely verifying info for the correct answer.
I have no doubt that Mr. Keirstead is much more the professional than we have seen lately posting for Arctic....
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Agreed
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If anything after 2" of insulation is sufficient, why do so many companies foam fill their spas? The claim I keep hearing is, "it is more efficient". That would seem in contravention to one of their own's comments.
Isn't the type of foam in the cover different than what's used in the cabinet?
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Isn't the type of foam in the cover different than what's used in the cabinet?
Stop making sense!
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:o Apparently, Arctic is good at giving the cold shoulder!
-Ed
Well Ed, you might be right at this point! I thought Mr. Keirstead was more professional than what we’ve been seeing… ? He might still be verifying things though or has other fires to put out, I'll be patient and give him more time....
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Well Ed, you might be right at this point! I thought Mr. Keirstead was more professional than what we’ve been seeing… ? He might still be verifying things though or has other fires to put out, I'll be patient and give him more time....
Don't sell him short yet...Stabone did post an apology:
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1102611079
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In my very short time owning my tub I have been happy. It is hot when I get in and stays hot when I'm not. My electric bill is respectable and my neighbours think I'm the best thing since sliced bread.
This is awesome. I am so glad you said that.
There is no Arctic support found here on this site. This does not alarm me in the least. I am a Canadian who wanted to purchase a tub built in Canada. I tested/researched Hydropool, Polar, Beachcomber seriously. My wife and liked the Arctic better. That's just our opinion. I do not feel like the dealer in any way sold me some hype. They were professional on all levels. My wife and I expect to continue sitting under the snowy limbs counting the stars and enjoying our tub.
There is now support for Arctic. And you did a wonderful job of providing it. There is no way anyone could possibly argue what you have said - and again, thanks for saying it.
I would also like to point out that even though the Arctic guy was often misguided, he wasn't the only one being unprofessional.
Cheers
Jc
Thanks for the reminder. I am ashamed of my behaviour, and glad it was 'moderated away.' I will try to do better in future. Amazing how easy it is to jump into it with harsh words. Sorry.
[/quote]
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Oops, I didn't mean that the piping didn't exist. I meant that someone (stuart maybe?) had said that this type of piping is heavier and required more support and that the support for the piping did not exist.
Many thermopane tub manufacturers place foam on the piping in part for insulation, and in part for support.
But if this is incorrect, please let me know and I'll modify the original post.
-Ed
Darned english language, so many ways to interpret...or misinterpret
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Mr. Kierstead,
I've noticed that you are still posting but haven't replied to my questions on page one of this topic? Could you take a moment and do that? It would make me feel a bit better about the un-professional way your factory rep attacked me personally on Private Messages. I wouldn't think this is how you want your company portrayed by me or anyone else.....
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Figured I'd jump in with a little info in regards to the "anything after 2" of foam is a waste" thing...... I tend to somewhat disagree......
First off, I'm basing this particular post on a single web site that lists the R-value of both EPS foam (what's in a spa cover), and spray urethane foam (what insulates the sides of most spas). Their R-values seem a bit lower than most claim, but hey, I gotta go with something :-) . I wont even BEGIN to go into the problems and flaws of how R value is determined. Dats a whole nother story....
They list the urethane at R-7.14 per inch, and the EPS at R-3.57 per inch. They don't mention the density of either, but the difference in density and it's R-value make for negligent differences in the following.
Now, there are studies that show for the average home (heated to I believe 70 degrees), R-7 will stop about 70% of heat loss, R-14 stops about 90% of heat loss and R-28.5 stops about 95% of heat loss. Remember, this is for a HOME, and I tend to think that with a hotter, 104 degree spa, the heat loss will be greater
This converts to 2" of EPS stopping about 70% of heat loss. In my opinion this is not acceptable from a spa cover and should be closer to 90% or even 95%. Again, remember that a spa is much hotter than a home, and the greater the temperature difference (compared to the ambient temp) the faster the transfer of heat.
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I think that my dealer said that my tub had an R-39 value in the sides and an R-29 rating for the cover. My cover is about 2 inches.
Do any dealers make R-value measurements on their covers?
-Ed
(and, yes, R value calculations from what little I have read on them do seem pretty wacky..)
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R-29????????? what kind of cover is this?
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I'd like to know the cover as well. You're talking about R15 per inch? That seems pretty high. What kind of cover is this?
Very curious.
Brewman
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I think that is what the dealer said. Maybe he said R-19. It's a HS grandee, and the local HS dealer was talking about the R value of the covers for all of the HS lines.
Maybe he was "talkin' it up" to make a sale, or maybe I heard him incorrectly. But I do remember thinking "wow, that's alot of insulationon the cover".
Of course, my other cover question would be: where does the most heat loss occur through the cover? I would guess (and it is a guess) that it isn't directly through the 2,3,4" cover, but rather through the points where the cover contacts the tub. Specifically:
1) The "joint" where the 2 parts of the cover are hinged.
2) The rim all the way around the cover, where just a vinyl flap comes down over the spa shell.
-Ed
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Ever the practical one, let me add this to the mix:
When you look out in the morning and see frost on the cover of a 102 degree spa, does that mean that there is no heat being transfered through the cover?
I know that when it happens in my backyard - rare I'll admit - it seems to go away first at the seam, but then the rest of it stays until the sun hits it, and it goes away exactly as the sun travels across the cover, or it will go away en-masse if a the temp climbs quickly as is Santa Anna winds coming up.
??? ???
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I think that is what the dealer said. Maybe he said R-19. It's a HS grandee, and the local HS dealer was talking about the R value of the covers for all of the HS lines.
Did some looking on-line. It must be R-19, not R-29. I either misheard or misremembered. Sorry!
-Ed
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I'd be suprised at R-19 also..... do you have a specific web page you looked at?
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Ever the practical one, let me add this to the mix:
When you look out in the morning and see frost on the cover of a 102 degree spa, does that mean that there is no heat being transfered through the cover?
it seems to go away first at the seam, but then the rest of it stays until the sun hits it, and it goes away exactly as the sun travels across the cover, or it will go away en-masse if a the temp climbs quickly as is Santa Anna winds coming up.
??? ???
Can you say lineal heat seal?
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Can you say lineal heat seal?
Stuart.....now who do you know that uses a linear heat seal.... ;)
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Stuart.....now who do you know that uses a linear heat seal.... ;)
It's a secret but I will give you a hint....
It starts with an M and ends with ARQUIS. If you have trouble figuring that out call me.....
Or you can order a cover from Doc and he will add it for you!
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It starts with an M and ends with ARQUIS. If you have trouble figuring that out call me.....
Do you mean MHotSpringarquis? No, I guess not.
But I like the idea. I don't know how much it adds to the cost of making a cover, but it sure looks like a good thing to have.
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Do you mean MHotSpringarquis? No, I guess not.
But I like the idea. I don't know how much it adds to the cost of making a cover, but it sure looks like a good thing to have.
Heck, you could probably run yours over to Doc and have him sew one in for you! ;)
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"Can you say lineal heat seal?"
No I can not ;D We call it a hinge seal
"It starts with an M and ends with ARQUIS"
mROBERTS HOT TUBSarquis? hmmmm, I'll discuss a name change at the next board meeting.......
As far as efficiency, the HINGE SEAL, adds from 3% to 5% more insulation value to the total cover. The larger the cover, the less over all percentage.
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"Can you say lineal heat seal?"
No I can not ;D We call it a hinge seal
"It starts with an M and ends with ARQUIS"
mROBERTS HOT TUBSarquis? hmmmm, I'll discuss a name change at the next board meeting.......
As far as efficiency, the HINGE SEAL, adds from 3% to 5% more insulation value to the total cover. The larger the cover, the less over all percentage.
How about MARQUIS! I don't think the hinge seal is that much more expensive is it for the 3% to 5% of added insulation?
I don't care what you guys call it but I will choke the next salesman on my floor that calls it "that little flappy thingy in the middle"! That really gives it added value!
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Technically, it's the little FLOPPY thing in the middle.
There's definatly "value" in it in terms of saving energy costs, but it's a bit of a pain in the a$$ to to do...... oh wait, no it's not... "HEY sewing machine operator #35, put a little FLOPPY thing in the middle of that one for stuart will ya".
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Is it mColemanArquis or mBeachcomberArquis?
Just wanted to add a couple of more names with linear floppy thing jobies.
This is getting way off topic. I say let Arctic's slip down the list and/or start a new thread on covers.
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This is getting way off topic. I say let Arctic's slip down the list and/or start a new thread on covers.
I don't know if I'm ready to let this slip down the list yet!
If you go back and read most of the questions I have asked of anyone at Arctic, other than which Keirstead I was talking to, you will notice I have either been sidestepped and ignored or got a snide remark that had nothing to do with the question. I've had my concerns and frustrations with the company for many reasons and this only justifies those......
I don't even think that the reply needs to be a public debate, I would be happy with JP answering me with a PM but he needs to understand that if it is not professional I will post it for everyone else's opinion.
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how about MdimensiononeARQUIS............or McalderaArquis???? ;D
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how about MdimensiononeARQUIS............or McalderaArquis???? ;D
The D-1's don't have it Jason! Do the Caldera's? I would be surprised. It seems to me the Californian engineers seem to ignore this aspect of design.
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D-1's used to up until a year or 2 ago when they changed cover manufacturers. they used to use Ideal, but now they use a different company. The caldera's do not to my knowledge, but I'll check the ones on our Demo spas in the showroom tomorrow.
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I am not ignoring it, or you Stuart, I simply don't have much time to follow-up the submissions on this site.
If you are asking do I condone unprofessional behaviour from anyone within my organization, the answer is clearly no. I hope you can appreciate that I have no idea who those other's are who claim to be sales reps for our company. If I did, they would be reprimanded for such behaviour. I am sure you realize that anyone could claim to be with my company and without knowing their full name, there really is no way for me to know who they are. I suspect that many people on this forum use alias' so they won't be held entirely accountable for their unprofessional comments.
As you can see...I do not.
James
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Mr. Kierstead,
I've noticed that you are still posting but haven't replied to my questions on page one of this topic? Could you take a moment and do that? It would make me feel a bit better about the un-professional way your factory rep attacked me personally on Private Messages. I wouldn't think this is how you want your company portrayed by me or anyone else.....
Again Stuart, I apologize. I was not ignoring you. I simply don't have much time to view the message board. Not only that, I am still learning how this whole forum thing works and I think I miss a lot of messages :-)
You can see my other reply on this subject, but suffice it to say that I do not condone the unprofessional comments you have pointed out (I missed the edited ones). If I knew who made them, I would reprimand them, however, I don't. Nor do I have the time to track them down. I hope that by posting this, they will see my position on the matter and act accordingly in the future.
Kind regards,
James
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Isn't the type of foam in the cover different than what's used in the cabinet?
Yes, the type of foam is different. Most covers use a Polystyrene foam insulation (approximately R4/inch), while most spas themselves are insulated with Polyurethane foam (I think about R7 per inch). Again this would suggest that a slightly thicker cover would definitely contribute to better heat retention.
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Again Stuart, I apologize. I was not ignoring you. I simply don't have much time to view the message board. Not only that, I am still learning how this whole forum thing works and I think I miss a lot of messages :-)
You can see my other reply on this subject, but suffice it to say that I do not condone the unprofessional comments you have pointed out (I missed the edited ones). If I knew who made them, I would reprimand them, however, I don't. Nor do I have the time to track them down. I hope that by posting this, they will see my position on the matter and act accordingly in the future.
Kind regards,
James
Thanks for answering! As far as "Tracking them down" I may have already done some of that, I will let you know when I'm sure.....
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I await your information.
Hope you enjoy the Holidays!
James
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Thanks for answering! As far as "Tracking them down" I may have already done some of that, I will let you know when I'm sure.....
Sometimes you scare me Stuart! LOL
Spahappy :D
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Sometimes you scare me Stuart! LOL
Spahappy :D
Ex-military types like Stu and my Dad scare me too.. :-X
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I await your information.
Hope you enjoy the Holidays!
James
OK thanks James, I will PM you when I get the info as opposed to carrying this on publicly.
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Ex-military types like Stu and my Dad scare me too.. :-X
He probably knows who's been naughty or nice too!
Spahappy :D
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He probably knows who's been naughty or nice too!
Spahappy :D
So when I find out who was naughty can I count on you and other members of the "vertically challenged estrogen mafia" to enforce for me? (hey I just thought of something, that would be kinda like elves wouldn't it?) ;)
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So when I find out who was naughty can I count on you and other members of the "vertically challenged estrogen mafia" to enforce for me? (hey I just thought of something, that would be kinda like elves wouldn't it?) ;)
Yeah nothing says Christmas quite like a band of vertically challenged estrogen mafia elves.
I kind of like the term estrogen mafia, I think I can put that to good use. LOL
Spahappy :D
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8 ) Arctic tubs are built like a polar bear. This is true. Go gut a polar bear, crawl inside, and you very may well recreate the Arctic experience.
-Ed
I must remind myself to try this next time I am in Churchill Manitoba, Canada's Polar Bear capital.
Ebirrane, This is the best post on Artic Spas I have ever read.
Well done, to the point and true.
Regards, ZzTop
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Ebirrane, This is the best post on Artic Spas I have ever read.
Well done, to the point and true.
Regards, ZzTop
I agree Zz Ed did a great job on this one! I have re-read it several times, printed it out and shared it with my employees and even faxed it to a competitor that is also a friend!
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THIS WEBSITE IS BRUTAL ON PEOPLE'S OPINIONS ABOUT THEIR SPA'S!!!! AND HOW MANY POSTED ARE OWNERS, NOT JUST DEALERS ???
ANYWAY, HERE'S MY OPINION:
I'VE OWNED 3 SPA'S NOW, MY LAST A CATALINA. I DECIDED ON A ARCTIC SPA (KODIAK LEGEND SEIRES) BECAUSE I LIKED WHAT I SAW. NOW THAT I'VE OWNED IT A FEW YEARS, HERE'S MY TAKE:
PROS:
SOLID CONSTRUCTION, FIBERGLASS BOTTOM, VERY WELL DONE WOOD SIDING.
THE SHELL, JETS & FLOW CONTROLS PRETTY MUCH INDUSTRY STANDARD.
THE ELECTRONIC CONTROLS, GECO VS BALBOA HAVEN'T BEEN AN ISSUE.
THE COVER, THOUGH MAYBE OVERKILL IS GREAT..... DOESN'T WARP OR BEND LIKE OTHERS.
THE SINGLE FILTER LASTS A YEAR, WITH SEMI-ANNUAL CLEANING.
THE FIVE YEAR WARRANTY COVERS EVERYTHING, NOT PRORATED LIKE OTHERS.
GREAT DEALER & FACTORY SUPPORT..... HAD SOME TROUBLE WITH A COUPLE OF JETS -- GOT HELP QUICKLY AND CALLS FROM THE FACTORY ON THE SATISFACTION OF THE HELP.
THE INSULATION AGAINST THE SHELL VS THE CASING IS A PREFERENCE THING...... IT DOES MAKE IT EASIER TO SERVICE THE TUB, BUT AS FAR AS HEATING COST SAVINGS -- BOTH DESIGNS ARE THE SAME !!! LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I'VE OWNED BOTH TYPES OF INSULATED TUBS. AND THE PUMPS GETTING TOO MUCH HEAT HASN'T BEEN AN ISSUE FOR ME.
CONS:
THE BIGGEST ONE IS THAT SALES TACTIC THAT ARCTIC IS MORE HEATING EFFECIENT...... THAT'S BULL, IT COSTS THE SAME AS THE OTHER 2 SPAS I'VE OWNED -- BOTH INSULATION DESIGNS ARE THE SAME IN THIS CONCERN.
THE PRICE COULD BE BETTER !! FRANKLY, I THINK YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR....... PAY ALITTLE MORE NOW OR PAY IT LATER. I'M LIKE EVERY OTHER CONSUMER OUT THERE WHO WANTS THE BEST DEAL POSSIBLE.
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That is one of the better, more honest posts I've seen concerning Arctic!
Thanks for your input!
I do have to say though that I don't think anyone was anymore brutal to opinions then the Arctic side was with snide comments and jabs.
Hopefully we will get more perspective like yours here as opposed to the volatile nature of the pitch that we all have a problem with anyway!
Good luck on your spa and Merry Christmas!
(BTW, I do have to throw a jab in here ;), your a mopar racer and an Arctic owner? Boy do you like to live dangerously! (just kidding ;))
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I'd be suprised at R-19 also..... do you have a specific web page you looked at?
Wow, been away for a while. I don't have a specific site. Some hot tub cover sites talk about an "R-20" cover as being very good and maximum, etc.., etc.. so I figured R-19 was more int he ballpark. I also posted R-19 on another board closer to when I purchased my tub so assumed it was a more accurate description from the dealer. I'm fairly certain my dealer said R-X9 (most probably R-19).
Of course, I also need to go out and see how thick my cover is. And, clearly, a phone call to my dealer would solve what they are telling people about the cover R value. I'll try and get off my Christmass duff and figure it out.
-Ed
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I'd be interested in knowing how thick the cover is, including the tapering, and the density of the foam.......
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The Arctic Castcore cover is a 5" - 4" tapered cover. It is a molded 2.4lb density polystyrene foam core.
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Castcore? By this does it mean extruded, rather than expanded polystyrine?
If so, on an 8x8 cover the R value of the foam is about 22-1/2. ad to the adout another 2 for the vinyl and poly wrap and you have almost R-25.
HOWEVER, this is ASSUMING that in fact the foam is extruded rather than expanded, that the TRUE thickness is 5" (a common place to "fudge"),
Doing the math, an 8' square cover has to weight MORE than 80 pounds.... I'm not sure that even with a cover lifter everyone could remove the cover at that weight.
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Castcore? By this does it mean extruded, rather than expanded polystyrine?
If so, on an 8x8 cover the R value of the foam is about 22-1/2. ad to the adout another 2 for the vinyl and poly wrap and you have almost R-25.
HOWEVER, this is ASSUMING that in fact the foam is extruded rather than expanded, that the TRUE thickness is 5" (a common place to "fudge"),
Doing the math, an 8' square cover has to weight MORE than 80 pounds.... I'm not sure that even with a cover lifter everyone could remove the cover at that weight.
Careful Doc, they have energy studies and thier not afraid to use them.... ;) ;) ;D
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And I, as well as many orther, are not afraid to point out the many flaws of such studies ;D ;D
Come on....... 80 pounds for a spa cover?
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Doc as you know we have talked about one of your extreme covers coming here to Northern Minnesota for me to give the ultimate test to. Whats one of those weight, even though lifting half of it over onto the other half and then sliding it onto my cover shelf seems easy no matter how much. And can you build special iner liner made to stand up to years of sliding on and on the shelf? We talked about the handles allready. And what's the R-factor of your standard extreme cover?
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And I, as well as many orther, are not afraid to point out the many flaws of such studies ;D ;D
Come on....... 80 pounds for a spa cover?
Can you imagine what that will be like when it starts taking on moisture? :o
You would have to get a crane in to replace it!
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Tman122, Im going to refer you to a web page that answers all your questions. I can't format a table here that would show the comparasons as well.
http://www.hot-tub-spa-covers.com/spa-cover-faq.htm
Click the second sentance, "How much weight will a spa cover hold?".
stu.... we actualy make a cover with 2.8 pound cores (custom for another company). From what I'm told, the foam is so compressed that there's very little room for water absorbsion
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Tman122, Im going to refer you to a web page that answers all your questions. I can't format a table here that would show the comparasons as well.
http://www.hot-tub-spa-covers.com/spa-cover-faq.htm
Click the second sentance, "How much weight will a spa cover hold?".
stu.... we actualy make a cover with 2.8 pound cores (custom for another company). From what I'm told, the foam is so compressed that there's very little room for water absorbsion
Really....How much do those weigh?
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Really....How much do those weigh?
Well........... let me start by saying this is NOT a cover I initially designed ;D It was requested of us by a large customer.
The cover is tapered 4-1/2" to 2-1/2", has a bit of extra re-inforcement, and at 8' square weights about 70 pounds.
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Actually, this is a great board on which to get information. The problem with stabone is that he didn't realize that many people here have gone through many engineering debates in the past.
People on here are either:
1) Dealers
2) Hot tub geeks
3) Shoppers
Most posters, I would wager, are 1, followed by 2, followed by 3.
Stabone went into the Arctic pitch and got very insulting and was buried with the same vitriole he spewed.
Search these forums to get substance on the following items:
1) Circulation pump or not?
2) How to support the plumbing
3) Type of bases
4) Methods of filtration
5) Full foam bversus thermopane insulation
6) Types of thermopane insulation
7) The fallacy of # jets and HP ratings
8 ) Adequate (and overkill) R-factors.
9) Energy efficiency and operating cost
10) chemical usage and maintenance ease
Arctic, as I have heard, is an OK tub with a big price tag and an over-the-top sales pitch, which is required to sell an "ok" tub at a large price.
Some suspicious claims I've heard from arctic people on this forum:
1) Their single filter provides "the equivalent of" 900sq ft of filtration at 1 micron and must be replaced twice a year.
There are several problems with this, from claims to actual usage if the claims were true.
2) Arctic does not need the heater to heat the water. Arctic, like many tubs, recycles pump heat back into the water. This claim is true, it is the uniqueness of the claim which is bogus. Additionally, it is not possible to control how much heat radiates up and it becomes difficult to keep the temp steady (this is called heat creep). This is especially difficult in the summer.
3) Arctic plumbing uses better flex piping. This piping is heavier and requires more support, which, based on discussions in this forum, does not exist.
4) Arctic insulates the cabinet, not the shell and this is a good thing. This can cause the shell to pull in, provides no good support of plumbing or shell, and makes pump motors run in a hotter environment, which is bad for them.
5) Arctic equipment is not kept out in the cold. Arctic equipment runs in the heated inner air space which causes more stress on the equipment. To prevent motor burnout Arctic cuts slits in the cabinet to allow air in, which, oddly, eradicates their thermolock design. Since the equip is INSIDE the heated area, you must vent the heated area, which will destroy the heated area on cold and/or windy days. Most manufacturers foam and insulate the SHELL and leave the hot-running equipment in a vented area for a reason.
6) The Arctic fiberglass base is the best out there
These bases can fail for several reasons because of what they are made of. Microcracks are caused by sliding and moisture seeping up from the base (concrete, wood, peblles, whichever). There are much better bottom-base materials to be used here.
7) Arctic uses the best covers around, and that saves you money . After the first 2 inches of foam you get very little extra insulation benefit. Worse, heat doesn't "rise" (hot air does, which is different than heat). Heat leaks to where it is cold, like down into that cold fiberglass bottom, or out through those vents that the equipment needs to operate.
8 ) Arctic tubs are built like a polar bear. This is true. Go gut a polar bear, crawl inside, and you very may well recreate the Arctic experience.
9) Arctic tubs runs more efficiently than competitors . Bunk. A study was done which showed Hot Springs and Arctic being very efficient. This was done to put Arctic in league with a FF, established dealer. To be brief, the test did not target many of arctic's weaknesses, especially with regards to wind which would greatly affect the thermolock via the equipment ventilation slots. Arctic does not claim to cost less money per month to run than any other tub.
10) Arctic filtration is the best. No. A single filter clogs very quickly, especially one with only 1 micron holes in it. Since Arctic does NOT use no-bypass filtration, as the filter clogs (which happens pretty quick at 1 micron) water will more easily bypass the filter.
11) There is no 11, Spinal Tap be darned. If I've lied above, others will point it out right quick.
There are many other points to be made regarding ozonators, heaters, shell design, jet placement, warranty honoring, it's just too late to go into it.
All my info comes from reading these boards and just a few months of hot tub nerdy research. I'm not a dealer.
"Fight Arctic Sales Pitches -- Get An Education"
No doubt people own arctic spas and enjoy them. Most probably, they have never owned a more mainstream spa before, either. The problem isn't the tub. If someone wants to overpay for a so-so tub there are much worse ways to do so. But don't go dropping $11k (can't remember if this was the retail price or not) for a tundra and think you couldn't have gottom something nicer for $7k.
The problem is the misconception by some dealers that Arctic is a religion. Worse, it is a sales pitch which uses "proof by analogy" and "pseudo-science" to trap people unfamiliar with hot tubs.
-Ed
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It was requested of us by a large customer.
You mean you made this for Mendocino!? ;) ;D
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"All my info comes from reading these boards and just a few months of hot tub nerdy research. I'm not a dealer. "
Well, that sums it up right there. If all of your info is coming from this board then it's no surprise you are part of the anti-Arctic cult which exists on this board.
Personally, I enjoy reading this forum and all the negative information that the fellow posters provide. As most of you know, when shopping for a product if the competitors are all slamming one specific product, it is for a reason. And I'm pretty sure I don't need to explain to any of you what that reason is.......
I sell the Arctic Spa, and I can tell you nobody on our staff is as close minded and "brainwashed" as most of these posters are claiming. It is a quality product that makes sense. I leave it up to the consmer to make that decision, and more often than not they choose our product.
"Fight the Arctic Sales pitch - get an education". That might be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. ???
It's just a shame that a public forum designed to give the interested shopper some valuable information to arm themselves with is largely a one sided assault on one specific company. And the most surprising is that is fellow salespeople and business owners doing it.....If this is the way you discuss in a public forum, I can't imagine what is being said in your showrooms to potential buyers. I have been selling these spas for over 4 years, and I can't even begin to tell you how many customers have bought simply because all of our fellow competitors talked more about the negatives of our products than simply presenting their own.....obviously that means Arctic is doing something right.
Anyways, I'm not posting this to start the zillionth argument on Arctic, just thought I'd speak up on what I observe on an almost daily basis on this "non-biased" forum. :o
Besides, I have 10 buddies coming over tonight to celebrate New Years. We are going to drink some Crown Royal and then have a dance/cabaret on top of my Arctic Spa cover. ;)
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"All my info comes from reading these boards and just a few months of hot tub nerdy research. I'm not a dealer. "
Personally, I enjoy reading this forum and all the negative information that the fellow posters provide. As most of you know, when shopping for a product if the competitors are all slamming one specific product, it is for a reason. And I'm pretty sure I don't need to explain to any of you what that reason is.......
I sell the Arctic spa
Besides, I have 10 buddies coming over tonight to celebrate New Years. We are going to drink some Crown Royal and then having a dance/cabaret on top of my Arctic Spa cover. ;)
I have to ask what is it with you Arctic guys with this us against the world mentality and also your arrogant self inflated product superiority....I think from what I have read you make a nice product that has some strengths as well as some weakness as do most others....But again it all comes back to the attitude that seems to be common among Arctic sales people....do you have do a chant or something on a daily basis I mean really why is it so consistent among est you folks.....I wish you a Happy New Year and I hope that some day soon you and your ten friends will have a better place to dance than on the top of a spa cover....who would want to do that anyway....
PS, By the way where in this great state of Ohio are you?
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Mendocino, considering you have over 500 posts on this forum it surprises me that you would ask the "us vs the world" question. I suggest you re-read this entire Arctic Tubs thread again if you want that answer.
As far as self-inflated, obviously I am going to back the product I sell...just like everybody else does. I have never once said it is the greatest spa in the world and the rest are just "bunk" (as the catchphrase goes). I believe in the Arctic design and will support it when I see it being ripped apart. I will also defend the outrageous claims that are constantly being labled on my fellow Arctic salespeople. Just as you would for yours....I would hardly call that "arrogant self inflated product superiority".
I wish you a Happy New Year as well. As far as the dance on the cover, I guess I'll have to tell you that I was just being a little sarcastic. I'm just trying to fit in. :)
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All these points stated above are exactly why I came on this web site in the first place. Not to get in a battle of my tub is better than yours. I think we all, as dealers and owners have or should have a certain amount of pride in what we sell or own. But I can not believe that I was so brutally pounded by everyone on here for my "lack of knowledge" and then I read this riff-raff and it is praised. I guess you are accepted on here if you only say what everyone likes to hear. If that is what gains you respect on here than I am glad I am very disliked on this site.
Because I am an Arctic guy, and I will just side step questions anyway, and the ones that are answered are countered by things like, "it can't be better, no one else uses it", when you do things different, you have to use different materials. Alot of these materials like reflex torsion hose, forever floors, self-supporting shells. Are things that other manufactures don't need to make a good tub, so why would they use it if what they are using works for how they build their tubs! Full foam tubs use insulation to support there shells and piping, most other thermal panel tubs use insulation and other materials for extra support for piping and shells!! Arctic chooses not to use insulation for support, but rather a shell and pipe designed not to need support, I read on hear, concerning reflex piping," it weighs more, and needs more support", is that claim backed by anything or is that your opinion?
Because it is so much easier for you guys to take a material and say this is why its bad, "fiberglass floors can crack, there are better materials", I am going to have to ask you Ed to explaim these claims you make!!
Just for starters, explain your claim that by not having insulation on the shell, this can cause even warmer temps in the air space, than others that use insulation on both shell and cabinet? How does that work??
At what temp does it become to HOT for motors, glue joints, and other components on a spa to operate in. And do Arctic air space temps exceed that temperature.
How is a floor that has 4 to 5 inches of insulation, that the tub sits on, and the bottom is sealed going to loose heat, or get moisture damage? Boats, hot tubs, jet skies, are all made out of fiberglass, and these products are submerged or filled with water. Remember Ed, it is so over heated inside an Arctic air space that it can't be damp inside, and the outside of the floor could be submerged in water without damage.
Arctics don't have heaters, and run their pumps all the time with no control on the water temps!! Again Ed this "heat creep" you speak of would only occure if that were true. During filter cycles on low speed the pumps do create heat that HELPS maintain water temps, to aid the heater. James is much more knowledgeable about actual temps that are produced from the pumps. Hopefully he will help me in this department. Also in warmer climates we use vented summer doors to prevent this "heat creep". Arctic does not claim they don't need or use heaters, only that they recover more ambient heat created by the equipment that can actually be used to maintain water temps. Which cuts down on heater use, not the need of a heater all together.
I want to wish everyone a safe and happy
NEW YEAR!!!!
(TONIGHT, WE DANCE!!!!!!)
P.S Also, my name is Chad, I am 27, and my stores are located in Ohio!!!
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My neighbour had an Arctic spa and one of his cover cores broke. They are not impervious to damage though the sales pitch would leave you to believe it. He sold it after 2 year of outrageous operating costs and constant repairs. Overpriced units at best.
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Also, my name is Chad, I am 27, and my stores are located in Ohio!!!
Chad, I would like to suggest you call Corporate and ask them to do a better job for you. Especially their website. I live in Columbus, Ohio which as I'm sure you know if right in the center of the state.
As moderator I try to stay out of arguments about brands, especially ones I have never seen. If there was an Artic dealer near me I would make the effort to stop and take a look. And if I was in the market again, or for the first time back in '03 I would have used the dealer locater on many spa sites I learned about here.
Some of those locaters are inaccurate (Beachcomber comes to mind). Artics is just plain dumb. I input my zip code and the only thing it tells me is that there are no dealers within 40 miles of me. I guess if your store is 41 miles from me, we are both out of luck. I'm lucky to live in a nice sized metropolitan area but If I go out of my way to look for an Artic and they put up roadblocks, guess who I am avoiding? I would bet a fairly large number of people buy spas from companies more than 40 miles away.
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Thanks for the heads up, I think they do that more from a service stand point for both the dealers and customers. It needs to be more like 100 miles, or just show where the closest dealer is no matter how far, I have never heard of this, I will check it out.
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Thanks for the heads up, I think they do that more from a service stand point for both the dealers and customers. It needs to be more like 100 miles, or just show where the closest dealer is no matter how far, I have never heard of this, I will check it out.
100 is more my thinking as well. Now if Artic had more than say 5-10 stores in Ohio maybe they would want to limit the distance so people don't try to get one dealer undercutting another. But as you say, the closest dealer might be better.
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I was going to stay out of this fray but....I just can't!
I'm amazed that in almost every post by an arctic supporter there is an underlying hostility and snideness!
I have debated many times the points of the spa, company and pitch that concern me as an industry professional and yet it always brings a childish rant by someone on the Arctic side. The most hospitable exchanges I've had have been with James Kierstead a VP with the company.
I have been personally bashed and insulted by company reps while trying to voice my opinion and experience.
On almost every forum Arctic is starting to take a very aggressive stance and presence that I feel is coming from the factory level as a strategy yet the tone of most of the posters is very volatile.
Every company takes their criticism at one time or another and for the most part has someone giving a strong opinion or point in favor of the company but few get as ugly as the arctic debates!
Funny, I bet you can find more comments about drinking, partying, degrading women and childish hostility from the Arctic side than just about any other company represented on the forums.
It would be in the Manufactures best interest to curtail some of this in the future for their own name....
BTW, if you go back and read some of cflrules past posts you will see some good info and even some informative exchanges related to the industry so I know it's not the ONLY form of posting that they do....
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Stuart, you sure run your mouth alot, then have the nerve to cry about being bad mouthed and insulted. Stop it you sound like a little girl, and personally I have taken more on this site than most, and I will keep taking it. Grow a pair or stop running your mouth on these topics on Arctic, I'm not on here to make friends, or blow sunshine up all your turd cuters.
The bottom line is that you guys are lying on this site, and making claims about a product and company that I really care about, and yes we are different. We have an unbelievable group that is growing in size everyday, Arctic is like a family, from the owners, employees, dealers, and even owners. We are a group all striving to be the best, and I for one am not going to appoligize for that.
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Chas, I just want to know how you do as much bad mouthing and then can say that, about Arctic guys, I have read the forums. Stop preaching to me, I never hear Arctic guys crying like you guys do. We disagree, very strongly. You are one of the rudest people on hear, and I believe were posting pictures, in a personal attact towards me the first day I was on this site. I am going to talk some smack on here, don't dish it if you can't take it!!
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Easy now stabone. Chas is with Hotspring. You must kneel before him before you can slam him. He's in the "click" and you ain't. Makes no difference from there on.
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That "click" on this site, try to run anybody out of here that doesn't agree with what they say and try to dominate this site, and limit it to only dealers with their opionions giving consumers info. Well, I am going to say what I want, and if these jack-cracks want some, then they can just bring it!!!
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Chas, from the second I started on here I have been attacked. For my product not what I said, after being attacted, I start attacking others on here and I have appoligized for some of my comments. How is making false statements about a product, because you don't like the company professional, anywhere but on this site? I am not going to back down to you or your buddies on this site. So if you don't want attacted don't attack me. Practice what you preach, and maybe you will get some respect from me. I might be an a-hole but at least I am not a hypocrite!!!
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I'm sorry if I attacked you. I know I got a bit off in the early part of this thread, and I went back to remove the posts, but they had already been 'moderated.' I was glad.
I'll try to do better.
:)
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Stabone,
The reason you and your Arctic buddies get so much heat here is.. it seems that the reason you are here is to stir things up to make some wild statements, shoot some insults and than bail....I would be hard pressed to find when any of the Arctic guys offered anything constructive on any thread outside of Arctic...And like every question ever posed to a Arctic person they go unanswered mine is where do you all get together at because you seem to come in a small herd...Slinging BS kicking woman and small children who get in your way...Do you guys ever think about trying just offer some help or input outside of using the Arctic name...
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Seems to me that any thread that reads Arctic is the same old BS. Absolutly the worst "Sales Pitch" in the industry today.
OK, Arctic guys, did I say a lousy tub in there anywhere? If your blind to what's being said by the masses you will create your own mediocre future. Hire a new executive sales team, maybe the outside sales guys aren't that bad?
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The reason us Arctic guy's get so pissy with all you spa guys on here is because anyone that knows building materials and insulation principles understand what are salespitch is all about. Not everyone is going to agree with the way we do things, much the same as we don't agree with your methods. I think that is understandable for both sides. What is so BS is that you guys won't even acknowledge some of the features that Arctic offers that are good. If there is ever going to any peace amongs Arctic and others you are going to have to get over yourselves and accept some facts.
1) Stop trying to fight that are covers are not better than yours, it's a fact. I think everyone agrees that after 4 to 5 inches of insulation the rest is just taking up space. So save your overkill comments for the next guys that comeout with some 8 to 7 inch taper cover. It's not only the thickness, but better foam, and that they are molded not cut like most other cover to help prevent taking on moisture. They are not just some crap cover that is thick, to look good for consumers. What is wrong with accepting that!
2) I cut every spa I trade in or haul out for people in half. I have never seen a shell even close to the thickness of an Arctic. The reason other tubs, whether full foam or thermal panel don't build thicker shells is that they use other materials for support. We don't so we build a thicker shell. Whichever way you think makes a stronger, longer lasting shell is the best in your opinion. We choose to believe that a shell that doesn't need extra support is better. If you are to bitter to see the advantage of that, especially in non FF design??
Those of you that make the arguement that we don't spend the money to spray the extra foam on the shell, should check out the difference in the cost of material along with labor time, of making thicker shell as opposed to spraying foam. You will truly understand how ridiculous that arguement is.
The forever floor, is strong, fully sealed, and impervious to moisture. What is bad or false about that. We sold Jacuzzi for 15 years and there has never been a floor on those comparible, from 50 yards there are some plastic floors that look similar, but for overall strenghth there is nothing comparible. That I have seen, and my business services all brands, I have not seen every spa ever made, so this is from my personal experiences only. But I will say my list includes most of you self proclaimed "big boys" in the business.
My point here is if you don't like the filtering, jets, shell design, etc. You have that right, but not give respect for features that are solid, not even better in all situations. Instead of that most on here try to twist things to make these feature sound like negatives, and that is why most of you on here just sound like jealous kids. Prop what needs propped and smack what needs smacked!! And I can live with that!!!!
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I am not going to back down to you or your butt buddies on this site. So if you don't want attacted don't attack me. Practice what you preach, and maybe you will get some respect from me. I might be an a-hole but at least I am not a hypocrite!!!
Just your mannerisms would turn me off in regards to the product you push/sell.
Does Arctic Corporate teach these selling practices,and do they encourage this lack of professionalism from their employees? If I had to place a small wager,I would venture that you and J.A. are related.
(I find it hard to believe that Arctic is aware,and/or pays you to act the way you do)
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Autoplay, like I said to the others, stop crying, I don't care about your feelings. I wish someone would pay me to come on here and run a little smack, I don't insult anyone that doesn't insult me. Chas, and I made or appoligizes. I have a problem with those on here that take their shots, then cry when they have to take a little. And stop it with the idea that Arctic has anything to do with indepent dealers like me, and what I say.
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Stuart, you sure run your mouth alot, then have the nerve to cry about being bad mouthed and insulted. Stop it you sound like a little girl, and personally I have taken more on this site than most, and I will keep taking it. Grow a pair or stop running your mouth on these topics on Arctic, I'm not on here to make friends, or blow sunshine up all your turd cuters.
The bottom line is that you guys are lying on this site, and making claims about a product and company that I really care about, and yes we are different. We have an unbelievable group that is growing in size everyday, Arctic is like a family, from the owners, employees, dealers, and even owners. We are a group all striving to be the best, and I for one am not going to appoligize for that.
Stabone,
I’m glad that you’re posting on the forum! Your snide and obnoxious comments substantiate (not using too big of words am I?) everything that many of us question about the whole Arctic program!
Let me explain something to you, I don’t come on here and just tout the brand that I sell nor do I childishly attack other brands without substance behind my comments!
I feel that as an industry professional that I have the responsibility to help where I can and advise where I’m experienced. I can’t tell you how many evenings I went back to my computer to make sure someone on this forum who was working through an issue had a resolve before I went to bed. I have tried to be there even by phone and walk people through freeze ups, chemical maintenance issues and even service problems.
I have interceded with factories both that I sell for and that I actually compete with on behalf of a customer with a problem on these boards, I’ve personally called dealers to talk to them for customers in their area to help negotiate a deal or fix a customer service issue and I’m not an anomaly, many people here do this Chas included (remember him, the other guy you slammed on this topic). We don’t get paid, we don’t make money on the service advice we give, and we don’t get a sale even on chemicals by being here. What we do get is the satisfaction of knowing that we added positively to the industry by being fair, honest and helpful…
You see just bragging about your experience and what product you choose to push on the general public isn’t enough! If you’re going to set yourself up as an expert then have a goal to make a positive difference in the spa experiences of people frequenting these forums!
You brag about how thick the shell of an Arctic is compared to other brands or how great the cover is yet ignore or bash questions concerning filtration and sanitation of your spa.
Maybe you haven’t been in the industry long enough to have experience with other brands but I have! I’ve been fixing spas for as long as you’ve been alive and in the industry full time for almost 17 years. Here is a secret for you…..I have yet in all of that time to see a fiberglass shell crack because it wasn’t thick enough! That’s out of thousands of spas!
So Chad, you keep slamming me and others on this forum and making your idiotic comments about “chicks” and “butt buddies” so that you can make our point for us on the slanted philosophy and attitude in the Arctic sales pitch that goes against what most of us believe our industry to be.
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I can vouch for what Stuart says because he has answered my questions more than once on this forum Its not just about who has the best features its also about dealers who go the extra mile like stuart so Stabone you could learn alot from dealers like Stuart I wish my dealer was as concerned about me like he has been
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I don't think I mentioned shells breaking at anytime, other than actually cracking. There are problems that a weak shell can cause. But my point was that if you use other supports you don't need a thicker shell.
Shells that flex and give can cause leaks around the jets, from the movement around the seal, I have fixed many leaks on jets on the flat leg areas on loungers, and other places that receive alot of weigh and movement from users. Not to say, that is the only reason for leaks, but I do find alot in those areas of tubs.
My point is for how we build a tub it works for us, for how your tubs are built that works also, again my original point on this board was to clear up some misconceptions about how our tubs are built, but you guys don't want to listen, and some of it is justified, I will give you that. So whenever you decide to be a little more open minded, and a little less defensive, and we at Arctic tone down are approach I think we can carry on a reasonable discussion on this board.
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I My point is for how we build a tub it works for us, for how your tubs are built that works also, again my original point on this board was to clear up some misconceptions about how our tubs are built, but you guys don't want to listen, and some of it is justified, I will give you that. So whenever you decide to be a little more open minded, and a little less defensive, and we at Arctic tone down are approach I think we can carry on a reasonable discussion on this board.
Stabone,
That is most reasonable thing I have read that you have said...I hope it holds to be true...
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The reason us Arctic guy's get so pissy with all you spa guys on here is because anyone that knows building materials and insulation principles understand what are salespitch is all about.
I know one hell of alot more about building materials and insulation properties than probably any Arctic sales guy and your right! I do understand the sales pitch, it's BS!!!!
I have been in the mechanical industry (yes insulation also) with one of the largest plumbing, heating, pipe fitting, boiler maintanence, insulation and construction companys in the nation for more than 25 years.
And whoever told you that insulation does nothing after 4 inches is 100 percent wrong.
Wake up stabone. Take what your saying out of the Hot Tub industry into real life and then see how much "sence" it makes!!
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I know one hell of alot more about building materials and insulation properties than probably any Arctic sales guy and your right! I do understand the sales pitch, it's BS!!!!
Is that right? Wow. I'm gonna call the factory and let all the engineers that they should hire you. If you know more than all of the Arctic Salespeople you would be a valuable team member to correct the "BS" that Arctic sells.
What a ridiculous statement. ::)
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BTW, I would love to see how this forum would react if an Arctic Salesperson made a comment like that.... :o
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BTW, I would love to see how this forum would react if an Arctic Salesperson made a comment like that.... :o
Probably quite well. First he said "probably any sales guy," which does leave room an exception. Then he backed up his statement with something, his credentials.
Do you see the difference in in not stating an absolute, and then backing it up with some kind of evidance?
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Yes, I understand the difference....the point I'm trying to make is that is that a statement like that made by an Arctic member would be ripped to shreads...even it was backed by evidence. IMO, that is how this forum seems to work.
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I just think it is so funny that you guys, change your story on insulation, and how much is needed to properly insulate, 4 to 5 inches is not enough to retain heat around the perimeter and floor, and yet is is overkill for a cover.
My family has been in the plumbing and construction business for over 30 years, and in the pool and spa business for 19. We service all brands of spas, and pools. I have been doing plumbing, construction, and service since I was 13. We have 2 retail stores, along with the plumbing business. I know alot about this industry, other than reading an Arctic sales pitch.
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1st, describe the insulation design, of an Arctic, and what is false in how it is presented.
That is what I would like to know as well....
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Yes, I understand the difference....the point I'm trying to make is that is that a statement like that made by an Arctic member would be ripped to shreads...even it was backed by evidence. IMO, that is how this forum seems to work.
I disagree cf. I think you'll notice that this forum operates quite well for the most part. It's only when unsubstanciated claims of superiority are brought forward that it tends to ruffle feathers. I'm not going back through this entire thread but certainly you can see the general approach of the Arctic salesperson should you care to take the time.
Though we've all said things in anger and frustration at times on this forum, I hope that you aren't defending the manner in which Arctic has been presented and represented here? ???
If I was the Rep for Arctic, I would have set up a conference call months ago to defuse this type of posting. It serves no good for the forum or your product.
Steve
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Yes, I understand the difference....the point I'm trying to make is that is that a statement like that made by an Arctic member would be ripped to shreads...even it was backed by evidence. IMO, that is how this forum seems to work.
Its difficult to take you seriously when you proclaim that the "CFL rules".
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I just think it is so funny that you guys, change your story on insulation, and how much is needed to properly insulate, 4 to 5 inches is not enough to retain heat around the perimeter and floor, and yet is is overkill for a cover.
My family has been in the plumbing and construction business for over 30 years, and in the pool and spa business for 19. We service all brands of spas, and pools.
1st, describe the insulation design, of an Arctic, and what is false in how it is presented.
I'd like some clarification on a couple points if you don't mind.
First, do you agree with the manner in which it is presented when Arctic promotes heating without a heater? Do you think it's somewhat misleading or do you find it accurate?
Is the thickness of a cover directly realted to it's energy efficiency? Does the strength of the cover cause the cover to be too heavy for an average lady to manipulate? (cause you know they like doing that... ;D) Just kidding ladies...love ya! :-*
On average, what is the total amount of time a pump runs in a 24 hour period on an Arctic spa? Do you personally consider Arctic to be a thermally closed unit?
Please name 3 manufacturers that don't require the addition of foam or the cabinet to support the structure.
We'll start there. Thanks...
Steve
Oh... and I believe Stuart has some unanswered questions if I'm correct. Take your time stabone. We're going for quality of answers and not speed of reply.
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Its difficult to take you seriously when you proclaim that the "CFL rules".
HEY >:(.
Keep in mind that we only require 3 downs and you guys need 4 to move the ball 10 yards. I mean...what's that about? ??? ;D
Steve
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Its difficult to take you seriously when you proclaim that the "CFL rules".
Oh I see. Didn't realize my opinion on professional football would have an impact on fellow posters opinions on my views..... ::)
Tough crowd.
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First of all, I don't think anyone has bought an Arctic, thinking that it is not equipt with a heater. Nor have I heard anyone from Arctic claiming that we don't use heaters. Only, by recovering heat from the equipment, and not blocking it away from the water by insulation, we are able to use the surface area of the whole shell to transfer that heat towards the water. Because of this we can seal the air space, unlike other TP design that needs to vent the air space, because the heat from the equipment is trapt by insulation on both the shell and cabinet. If this type of insulation that recovers more waste heat, makes for an overall more effecient tub, is obviously still up for debate. I believe it is, some believe in other types that is fine. What I don't like being accused is falsely presenting my product, if outhers do, I have no control of that, I do not. I know that hydrospa uses wood for extra support. Why don't you answer some of the questions I asked Ed, since you thought his misinformed and false statements were so well thought out and accurate.
I have never had any customer feed back with trouble opening a cover, most try out the cover and lifter, while shopping. My mom is little, and takes the cover on and off all the time, same for my sister and girlfriend.
Steve do you think that an Arctic cabinet is not sealed? Go ahead and get to your point about the other manufactures, that use self supporting hulls??
I set filter cylces, on my tubs for 2hrs at a time, 4 times a day. 8 hours total.
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First of all, I don't think anyone has bought an Arctic, thinking that it is not equipt with a heater. Nor have I heard anyone from Arctic claiming that we don't use heaters.
Nor did I say say that Arctic doesn't have heaters. What I did say is that Arctic PROMOTES their spas in a way which gives the impression that these spas heat without the heaters and do you find that misleading in any way?
Only, by recovering heat from the equipment, and not blocking it away from the water by insulation, we are able to use the surface area of the whole shell to transfer that heat towards the water. Because of this we can seal the air space, unlike other TP design that needs to vent the air space, because the heat from the equipment is trapt by insulation on both the shell and cabinet.
So are you saying that your cabinets are 100% sealed and air tight like a thermal pane window? I just want to be sure I'm understanding you correctly.
I have never had any customer feed back with trouble opening a cover, most try out the cover and lifter, while shopping. My mom is little, and takes the cover on and off all the time, some for my sister and girlfriend.
Let me ask you this; what is the total weight of this cover?
Steve do you think that an Arctic cabinet is not sealed?
I believe that no one can thermlly close a spa 100%. Not even Arctic. If a blower is installed, where does this air come from? When introducing air via the venturis from the jets, where is that air coming from? Would the spa not implode if it was a 100% thermally closed unit in these situations? Yes...it would and that's why I believe they are not sealed in the way they would need to be to give the type of beneift you are speaking of.
Go ahead and get to your point about the other manufactures, that use self supporting hulls??
There was no "point" to be made other than to see if you think Arctic is the only manufacturer built this way. I also wanted to know if you could name others that do offer this to determine your level of understanding in the spa industry.
I set filter cylces, on my tubs for 2hrs at a time, 4 times a day. 8 hours total.
OK..now we're getting somewhere. So in this single thermal pane design, the pumps are running on low speed 8 hours per day. Would this then not leave 16 hours a day, every day, where the pumps are generating NO heat at all? At -35C, what is preventing this cabinet (which is not a thermally closed ) from letting that ambient temperature in the cabinet? Understanding that you are speaking of induction of heat between the body of water through the shell composite into the dead air space, wouldn't this then result in temperature loss in that body of water if that air space is cooler than the body of water?
Steve
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Steve, it is so hard to type all the technical info you want, because all you want to do is try to twist things, I would be more than happy to talk with you. I will send you a personal message.
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I'm sorry you feel that way. ???
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At -35 what tub is not going to loose temp, if the tub needs to heat, it does just like any other tub. We can type all night and not get any where. It is a different way to insulate than most thermal panel spas that use insulation on the shells. If you don't think it is better than other ways to insulate a tub, that iis fine. I believe in this method, it makes sense to me. FF makes good sense to some people. My question to you is what do you think is false. Not if you think it is more energy efficient??
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I believe both have merit and inherited problems.
What I don't believe in is promoting beyond reality.
My choice would be a spa that incorporates the best of both worlds (Full foam and Thermal pane). Hence...HYDROPOOL!! ;D
Steve
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Alot of people don't know this, but the water in an Arctic turns to gold, any woman that gets into one transforms into a supermodel, and they clean your house while you are at work!!!
I just wanted to tone it down a little, talk with you later Steve.
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Alot of people don't know this, but the water in an Arctic turns to gold, any woman that gets into one transforms into a supermodel, and they clean your house while you are at work!!!
I just wanted to tone it down a little, talk with you later Steve.
At least you start to say things which have a greater probability of being true.
Look, my post made all the arctic guys (meaning... you) throw a posting tantrum. Deep apologies.
How about this, address the points and you'll change my mind and maybe other people's minds.
Or, address points made to you in other threads too.
Or, make any technical point whatsoever.
Or... not, as the tantrums do add some entertainment.
-Ed
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I'm still miffed about the CFL comment. :-[
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I'm still miffed about the CFL comment. :-[
LMAO! ;D
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At least you start to say things which have a greater probability of being true.
Look, my post made all the arctic guys (meaning... you) throw a posting tantrum. Deep apologies.
How about this, address the points and you'll change my mind and maybe other people's minds.
Or, address points made to you in other threads too.
Or, make any technical point whatsoever.
Or... not, as the tantrums do add some entertainment.
-Ed
Ed,
I don't know that I've told you this but I truly appreciate your intellectual sarcasm and in-depth essays! I've read and re-read several...Your a pretty deep guy and you add a lot to this board! ;)
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I'm still miffed about the CFL comment. :-[
Just kidding. I think the CFL is just as good as the NFL European Leauge and almost as good as Arena Football.
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The reason us Arctic guy's get so pissy with all you spa guys on here is because anyone that knows building materials and insulation principles understand what are salespitch is all about. Not everyone is going to agree with the way we do things, much the same as we don't agree with your methods.
This is what I was responding to CFL. Why would you jump me only because I do not want to be lumped into this group Stabone has created to try and justify a sales pitch?
Is that right? Wow. I'm gonna call the factory and let all the engineers that they should hire you. If you know more than all of the Arctic Salespeople you would be a valuable team member to correct the "BS" that Arctic sells.
What a ridiculous statement. ::)
I don't think they could meet my salary requirements! But thanks for the offer. Besides I have had out of town job offers before and never excepted them because I like it in Duluth Minnesota.
My family has been in the plumbing and construction business for over 30 years, and in the pool and spa business for 19. We service all brands of spas, and pools. I have been doing plumbing, construction, and service since I was 13. We have 2 retail stores, along with the plumbing business. I know alot about this industry, other than reading an Arctic sales pitch.
I hope you don't sell for your family business because I get a bad feeling about your attitude from your first post along time ago! You seem angry and arogent and that is a no-no in the sales department of any company.
OK..now we're getting somewhere. So in this single thermal pane design, the pumps are running on low speed 8 hours per day. Would this then not leave 16 hours a day, every day, where the pumps are generating NO heat at all? At -35C, what is preventing this cabinet (which is not a thermally closed ) from letting that ambient temperature in the cabinet? Understanding that you are speaking of induction of heat between the body of water through the shell composite into the dead air space, wouldn't this then result in temperature loss in that body of water if that air space is cooler than the body of water?
Steve
Steve I have asked over and over about this 16 hours or majority of every day and the greater heat loss during these non run times, The 20% heat loss out the sides is reduced in many ways and Arctics thicker cover during there "scientific study" to handle the 80% upper loss is an interesting sales misconception that alot won't see and for us to state that there sales pitch is BS albeit true, is it not a great sales idea non the less?
For those who do not see through it shame on them, this is america congratulations Arctic on your sales staff for coming up with this idea. I had it all wrong in the begining saying it was a BS sales pitch, I sould of said it was genius!
I hate being left behind in a pissing match, sorry I wasn't here to keep up with the thread. I responded to a comment made and got blasted by CFL and then Stabone, but it was nice to see a couple of you come to my rescue. But now your all lovey dovey in here so I missed it....dang!!
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Just kidding. I think the CFL is just as good as the NFL European Leauge and almost as good as Arena Football.
As a season ticket holder to the Columbus Destroyers, I am offended by that remark. I believe Coach Speilman owns a hot tub, but I Don't know what brand.
(http://www.columbusdestroyers.com/graphics/home/1.jpg)
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Stabone.
I would never ever consider an Arctic tub. Why? Just reading your inflamatory remarks that remind me of all that is wrong with the industry.
And, guess what?! I do have friends and I do talk to them and we do share opinions.
Your tactics, attitude, behavior, and terribly poor spelling lead me to believe that you are simply another salesman - one with no real knowledge - in fact, you remind me of a typical Cal Spa dealer.
Now keep in mind that I don't really care one bit about spelling - but looking at certain words that you have misspelled - I can only assume it is not a speed thing but rather an ignorance thing.
Happy bashing.
Now, please, go back to your van down by the river.
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Columbus destroyers??? Didn't they used to play in buffalo?????
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As a recent hottub shopper that did consider Arctic spas, and got a lot of information from this site, I'd like to comment.
No one on this site ever told me "Don't buy an Arctic Spa"
There were some blatent "no's" for some other companies.
I was warned about "an agressive sales pitch", and a lack of technical knowledge and information available from Arctic when questions are asked.
Now it may have been my local dealer, but I found this to be 100% true. Very agressive, must by today, all other spas are junk sales pitch followed by 0 answers to any technical questions. I do not expect a sales person to know all of the answers, so when I left I was requested that they find the answers I was asking for and get back to me please. The salesman just kept going on about the "mistake" I was making by not buying an Arctic spa. He never did get back to me.
I will also tell you that I got this same treatment at 1 other spa dealer as well. Neither got my business.
To me the answer to technical questions before purchase are a very good indicator of the service I would receive after the sale.
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Columbus destroyers??? Didn't they used to play in buffalo?????
Yes, This is their second full season in Columbus.
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As a recent hottub shopper that did consider Arctic spas, and got a lot of information from this site, I'd like to comment.
Thanks for your comments. You sound like a reasonable shopper. I would go so far as to say that asking technical questions and getting answers is the spa shoppers right, and if you have gone to the trouble to ask them and wait for a followup phone call with the answers, you have done more than many customers.
:)
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As a recent hottub shopper that did consider Arctic spas, and got a lot of information from this site, I'd like to comment.
No one on this site ever told me "Don't buy an Arctic Spa"
There were some blatent "no's" for some other companies.
I was warned about "an agressive sales pitch", and a lack of technical knowledge and information available from Arctic when questions are asked.
Now it may have been my local dealer, but I found this to be 100% true. Very agressive, must by today, all other spas are junk sales pitch followed by 0 answers to any technical questions. I do not expect a sales person to know all of the answers, so when I left I was requested that they find the answers I was asking for and get back to me please. The salesman just kept going on about the "mistake" I was making by not buying an Arctic spa. He never did get back to me.
I will also tell you that I got this same treatment at 1 other spa dealer as well. Neither got my business.
To me the answer to technical questions before purchase are a very good indicator of the service I would receive after the sale.
Sorry to hear about your experience. Sounds like you got a uneducated rookie salesperson at both dealers. Where do you live if you don't mind me asking?
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Southwestern-Ontario, Canada
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Southwestern-Ontario, Canada
That wouldn’t be Arctic in Kitchener, that you visited, would it?
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Sorry, for my spelling, I am first, not a great speller, second, trying to type as fast as my pecking action will allow. I grew up doing the manual labor in this industry. We all have our different strenghths'. Most of you on here would seem as out of place trying to straight edge concrete or replace a pump. As I look pecking on this keyboard, trying to figure out how to use this thing. I go to doctors' and lawyers' homes all the time to reset a tripped breaker. And these are very smart people, yet in my world they are not. Being booksmart, doesn't always make you the smartest person out in the real world.
Their are some people on here that probly can throw out more technical info, never spell a word wrong, and use perfect grammar, that would look like a deer in the headlights, standing in front of tub trying to trouble shoot a problem. If anyone wants really technical questions answered about Arctic, talk to JP Keirstead on this sight, he gets paid to know that type of stuff. He is also a spectacular speller, and poet.
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Stabone,
Your posts are getting less volatile and more a part of the community all the time.
I appreciate your PM message of apology to me and have to say that as the P and V wears out of your system you might become a good addition to this forum.
Most of the people posting here are very informed and very intelligent, you would be shocked at how industry informed many of the regular, non industry customers are here. People like Windsurf and ebirrane would out do many spa salesman on most showroom floors.
BTW, I have been in heated debate with both Ed and Windy that ended in mutual respect. This can be a positive for everyone involved.....
Here’s a tip, type your post in word, spell check it and then cut and paste it to the answer box. It will give you more credibility with your replies.
When you get some down time go back and read all of your past posts and see why many here take offense to you and how you can correct that. So far you seem very willing to mend some to the wounds…..
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I too was impressed with Chad. After he got what he needed to out of his system, he seems like a decent guy.
We exchanged some PM's last night and I basically told him the same thing about earning some repect and being more aware of what he's typing here and how.
I think he felt he could come in here and teach us all a few things not realizing that he was dealing with people that have seen it and heard it all before. The level of intelect on this forum is impressive and it's why i stay here to learn! I'm guessing we'll see a change and I'm always willing to give people a chance to try and fit in. he knows now that if he continues in the similar vein as earlier, he'll be "smacked down" (to use Chad's phrase ;D ) pretty quickly!
I have given him my cell phone number to discuss my previous questions in more detail as he didn't want to type it all out. Fair enough.
As mentioned before Chad, if you can't walk the walk, don't talk the talk and we'll all get along swimmingly ;D!
I look forward to hearing from you sometime soon.
Steve
P.S. Would you go on holidays already Stu! 8) ;D
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P.S. Would you go on holidays already Stu! 8) ;D
You tryin' to get rid of me?! ;) 8)
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Well we've set it up that we're all going to talk about you and then delete our posts prior to you coming back. We can't really do that till you're gone now can we? ???
;) ;D
Your wisdom, intelligence and insight will be missed during your absence!
Steve
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Well we've set it up that we're all going to talk about you and then delete our posts prior to you coming back. We can't really do that till you're gone now can we? ???
For cryin' out loud Steve! You weren't supposed to blab this!! Now he'll check while he's on vacation.
>:( >:(
;)
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For cryin' out loud Steve! You weren't supposed to blab this!! Now he'll check while he's on vacation.
>:( >:(
;)
I vote that we roast him while he's still here rather than trying to spare his feelings. He's a big hairy guy, he can take it!!!
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oh no - i don't want to smell all that hair burn while he's roasting.
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oh no - i don't want to smell all that hair burn while he's roasting.
That's how they know when I've laid out on the beach too long! :o :D
One thing about it....If your going to roast something make sure it has enough meat to make it worth while!!
Hey wait a minuet.....I resemble these remarks! ???
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Sorry, for my spelling, I am first, not a great speller, second, trying to type as fast as my pecking action will allow. I grew up doing the manual labor in this industry. We all have our different strenghths'. Most of you on here would seem as out of place trying to straight edge concrete or replace a pump. As I look pecking on this keyboard, trying to figure out how to use this thing. I go to doctors' and lawyers' homes all the time to reset a tripped breaker. And these are very smart people, yet in my world they are not. Being booksmart, doesn't always make you the smartest person out in the real world.
Their are some people on here that probly can throw out more technical info, never spell a word wrong, and use perfect grammar, that would look like a deer in the headlights, standing in front of tub trying to trouble shoot a problem. If anyone wants really technical questions answered about Arctic, talk to JP Keirstead on this sight, he gets paid to know that type of stuff. He is also a spectacular speller, and poet.
I'm willing to forgive and forget :) As most know me here,I won't stand for people being hustled....and try to look out for my common man/woman.
And Stabone,I wouldn't feel out of place,running a few screeds,and packing a tad of wadding in a gate valve :) I have 1 major trade I stick to as far as a profession,and profitability. I know bits n pieces bout other stuff,and I'm never afraid to ask questions,and learn from others,whenever possible.
I look forward to learning from you,in a positive fashion!
(Hands-on OJT my opinion,is the best way of learning)
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No it was not the dealer in Kitchener.
I have actually heard good things about them from some friends in Waterloo. Maybe I should have looked at Arctic there.