Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: 850-R on November 14, 2004, 09:51:13 pm
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THese are probably the three models I have narrowed it down to. I was hoping the people here could point out some factors that might help tip the scales one way or the other. I am gonna do the wet tests this week but I want to be informed before I go into making a deal.
Thanks so much!!
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You have selected three of the better spas out there...I think when someone gives you an opinion about them it will be tough for them not to be biased....The wet test should help YOU decide...Last year I started as a shopper for my spa and this year I am a Marquis dealer...I feel they offer as much value....quailty....therapy as any spa you will find....I think their warranty is very tough to beat...but you will have decide which spa best fits your needs....again all three are fine spas.....
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I agree. Wet test each one and go with your instinct. Comfort, the way the jets hit YOU, those things are the most important.
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I am Euphoria owner here, for about 2 months now. We love it but I was also looking at the HS vanguard. The wet test will decide for you but also you must have a good relationship with your dealer. They are your link to warranty work, chems etc. and the feeling you have should be comfortable. You will be happy with whichever one you buy and that is all that REALLY matters. Good luck and keep us posted!!! seeya
kay
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I own a grandee and have wet tested the optima. Don't know anything about the Euphoria, though.
I think one of the biggest considerations between the grandee and the optima is whether you like open seating or bucket seating.
We often have lots of people in our tub and the open seating helps us. It also allows us to have an impromptu lounger when there are just 3-4 people in the tub.
The other thing to look at is type of jets and their placement. I love the moto-massage. Some people love the optima foot dome. These two tubs are different enough in their design that you should be able to get a sense of which product makes you comfortable and "more at home" when sitting in it.
Some, especially here, will say HS has an edge on energy efficiency and filtration. Most will also say that all of you rchoices are "good enough". Filtration should be good enough. Energy efficiency should be "good enough". An extra $2-5 a month or extra 15 minutes cleaning filters shouldn't make or break a decision.
Don't let dealers steer you into something that you are not comfortable with just so you can proclaim some sort of tub-technical victory! 8)
And, as always, if you *can't* decide based on technical merit or comfort, choose which dealer you feel will better serice you in the future.
Good luck!
-Ed
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You have selected three of the better spas out there...I think when someone gives you an opinion about them it will be tough for them not to be biased....The wet test should help YOU decide...Last year I started as a shopper for my spa and this year I am a Marquis dealer...I feel they offer as much value....quailty....therapy as any spa you will find....I think their warranty is very tough to beat...but you will have decide which spa best fits your needs....again all three are fine spas.....
I agree with Mendocino101 all the way! I think that the Euphoria will cost less over time to own for several reasons and pound for pound I think it's one of the smartest buys out there.
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First let me say I own the HS Landmark which is basically the same size as the Grandee with a little different seating arrangement....
I just went and did a comparison on the size of the Euphoria compared with the Grandee.
The Euphoria is 7.5 x 7.5 with a depth of 34 inches. It holds 400 gallons of water. Seats 7
The Grandee is 7'7" x 8'4" with a depth of 38 inches. It holds 500 gallons of water. Seats 7
The Grandee gives you an extra foot of size, 4 more inches of depth and 100 more gallons of water. I, personally, can't see 7 adults in either of these tubs unless it is you and 6 of your girlfriends(Hef), but if you had to try, I would say they would be more comfortable in the larger deeper tub. You may want to take this into consideration when deciding based on how tall you are as well. My neighbor's wife almost drowns in my Landmark...LOL...
Personally I prefer the biggest deepest tub I can find. I am 6'4" so being able to totally stretch out is important to me. With the Grandee you will be very comfortable when it is just you and a significant other and you will also have plenty of room for your friends to all come over and enjoy your tub.
Just my 2 cents....
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It also explains why the Euphoria may be a little cheaper.
Few companies compare to the service responsibility of Watkins. The thing the marquis warranty has that the HS doesn't is transferrability. If you are going to sell your hot tub in the next 5-7 years then, with a Marquis, you can transfer the warranty to the person who buys it from you.
This is an important feature for marquis owners who need to sell their tubs in the first few years to run out and buy a Hot Spring. 8)
-Ed
ps. For cripe's sake, I'm making a JOKE
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It also explains why the Euphoria may be a little cheaper.
Few companies compare to the service responsibility of Watkins. The thing the marquis warranty has that the HS doesn't is transferrability. If you are going to sell your hot tub in the next 5-7 years then, with a Marquis, you can transfer the warranty to the person who buys it from you.
This is an important feature for marquis owners who need to sell their tubs in the first few years to run out and buy a Hot Spring. 8)
-Ed
ps. For cripe's sake, I'm making a JOKE
Joking or not one of the reasons the Marquis does allow for the warranty to be transfered is because of the Viton seals they use...with no exclusion of pump seals in their warranty ( I believe they are the only manufacture who does this)...no exclusions for pillows...the only exclusions on their warranty is the filter cartridge its self...I do not think the thought of selling the spa is what is key but perhaps the selling of a home....and being able to share with a buyer that the spa is still under warratny....also Marquis measurement (34.5) is on interior depth not on shell height....
http://www.dupont-dow.com/Products/Viton/viton.asp
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First let me say I own the HS Landmark which is basically the same size as the Grandee with a little different seating arrangement....
I just went and did a comparison on the size of the Euphoria compared with the Grandee.
The Euphoria is 7.5 x 7.5 with a depth of 34 inches. It holds 400 gallons of water. Seats 7
The interior depth of the Euphoria is 34 inches which is just about the same if not more than the Grandee
The Grandee is 7'7" x 8'4" with a depth of 38 inches. It holds 500 gallons of water. Seats 7
The Grandee gives you an extra foot of size, 4 more inches of depth and 100 more gallons of water. I, personally, can't see 7 adults in either of these tubs unless it is you and 6 of your girlfriends(Hef), but if you had to try, I would say they would be more comfortable in the larger deeper tub. You may want to take this into consideration when deciding based on how tall you are as well. My neighbor's wife almost drowns in my Landmark...LOL...
I does not give you 4 more inches of depth nor is it a "foot" bigger, do the math. The Grandee eats up a portion of the interior with the massive filter alcove and the jet niches for the moto massage jets thereby requiring it to be bigger to support 7 people. BTW, those 7 people can different heights and set in different positions in the water with the variable seating in the euphoria.
We have had 7 in the Euphoria in the store more than once!
Personally I prefer the biggest deepest tub I can find. I am 6'4" so being able to totally stretch out is important to me. With the Grandee you will be very comfortable when it is just you and a significant other and you will also have plenty of room for your friends to all come over and enjoy your tub.
Just my 2 cents....
The beauty of the Euphoria is that it doesn't just take one person into consideration nor does it limit your seating possibilities! There are a whole lot more options of jet configuration and seating than most spas.
In addition to these things the Euphoria has a more inclusive warrenty and will cost less to own over time.
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The interior depth of the Euphoria is 34 inches which is just about the same if not more than the Grandee
I does not give you 4 more inches of depth nor is it a "foot" bigger, do the math. The Grandee eats up a portion of the interior with the massive filter alcove and the jet niches for the moto massage jets thereby requiring it to be bigger to support 7 people. BTW, those 7 people can different heights and set in different positions in the water with the variable seating in the euphoria.
We have had 7 in the Euphoria in the store more than once!
The beauty of the Euphoria is that it doesn't just take one person into consideration nor does it limit your seating possibilities! There are a whole lot more options of jet configuration and seating than most spas.
In addition to these things the Euphoria has a more inclusive warrenty and will cost less to own over time.
So if the Grandee is not bigger how can you explain the fact that it holds 100 more gallons than teh Euphoria.....do the math....
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Well, like I said before, I haven't seen a Euphoria, but we have certainly had 7 in my grandee before without being too close for comfort. The grandee also has various depth seating.
Fortunately, size is easy to verify. From the marquis web site: exterior dimensions: 90"x90"x35.5", interior depth 34", 400 gallons.
Personally, I don't like the look of the tub, the 2 filters in the center, and lack of cool down seat, and barrier (bucket) seating. Your tastes may be different, which is why you MUST wet test.
(http://www.marquisspas.com/images/img_spa_euphoria_lg.gif)
The grandee is: 100"x91"x38". I like the no-barrier seating. Also, and this may be a small thing for others, but I *love* the elbow rests. It is such a small "attention to detail" sort of thing, and it was never part of my purchasing decision, but those little arm/elbow rests are terrific for me. Try them next time you wet test.
(http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/jpgs/grandee_pearl.jpg).
Don't quite get the spiteful comment about the filters taking up space. It's attractive and since you have 5 of them with 150 sq feet of filtration, they need to go someplace, and why not make that place where you can set drinks, a waterproof stereo, tub toys, or anything else?
Also the "left" and "right" side of the Euphoria look like they waste a lot more space than the corners of the grandee. But, I haven't measured it, it is just an eye-ball estimate.
Oh well, my 2 cents
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judging from that pic( I have never seen one in person) there is no way you are getting 7 adults in that Euphoria....where would all the legs and feet go???
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The beauty of the Euphoria is that it doesn't just take one person into consideration nor does it limit your seating possibilities!
Wow.
You got us there stuart.
The grandee takes one person into consideration and greatly limits seating possibilities.
The barrier free seating especially limits how you can lie in the tub, and the variable depths sets are a killer for variety.
::)
850-R,
1) Hot Springs has a terrific warranty, and a long history of going above and beyond its warranty. Watkins is well respected in the industry for its service.
2) Watkins has more filtration, and easier filter maintenance than most tubs, especially with the tri-x filters, which you can clean by ploppin in your dishwasher (by themselves, of course, not with dirty dishes)
3) The barrier-free seating is terrific. Many times I stretch across seats if I feel the need to.
4) The moto-massage is unlike anything out there. They are "2" jets that act like 20. You can buy interchangeable plates that alter the massage as well. You can sit in front of one for hours without getting your back rubbed raw.
5) Hot Springs, and especially their energy efficient series, are some of the cheapest spas to operate. While I can't be positive because I haven't attached a measuring device to my tub, we estimate paying about $10-$18/month during this summer. We expect to pay about $20-$25/month during the winter.
These are some perks about Hot Springs tubs, and the grandee in particular. Good luck in your decision, and watch out for the sales guys.
-Ed
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judging from that pic( I have never seen one in person) there is no way you are getting 7 adults in that Euphoria....where would all the legs and feet go???
Well, the pictures aren't to scale, but assuming the jets aren't the size of basketballs it seems a human would cramp in there a little more.
But maybe not.
When you wet test it is a VERY good idea to take 2 friends with you, or the spouse and kids. When looking at seating everyone looks at where their BUTT is going to do, but when people get tangled in a tub, it's the feet that get tangled.
Some people love the foot dome in the optima because it "helps". Some feel it actually makes it worse. The grandee worked with the 2 people (wife and her bro) who helped us wet test.
*Never* accept a manufacturer's listing of what a tub will hold!
-Ed
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About the cool down seats...in the Euphoria...two of the corner seats can be referred to as cool down seats...the really nice thing about them is that unlike most other cool down seats they are also therapy seats...looking at the pictures the foot wells seem to be close in size...personally weather it is a Euphoria or a Grandee I do not think that either is really meant for 6 OR 7 adults many salesmen like to say seats 7 instead of 7 seating positions. When taking into account water sanitation and as it has been referred to here before, 4 adults in a spa is about thesame as 200 in a back yard pool....I think the larger spas offer more room to move around...but not really designed to be used daily with 6 or 7.....
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I would suggest taking a notebook along for the wet tests. Take notes as to things you liked, things you didn't like, any questions you would like to ask. Be sure and take your family with you (if possible, my husband refused to wet test) and have them fill in their own comments about likes and dislikes.
This will help in the long run. It was a great suggestion that I took advantage of! Granted, it was the second round of wet tests that I took notes, but after testing back to back and making the notes, it was a lot easier for me to see the therapy differences in tubs!
Good luck!!!
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By the way....I again I think both are well made....well designed spas....wet test and see which best fits you...
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About the cool down seats...in the Euphoria...two of the corner seats can be referred to as cool down seats...the really nice thing about them is that unlike most other cool down seats they are also therapy seats.....
Ahh, looking at the photo again it does look like those two seats are a little shallower than the others, making them ideal cool-down seats, and therapy for a cool-down seat is nice, too.
Even when it is freezing out, cool-down seats are helpful. My wife and I were in the tub Sunday night and, in MD, it must have been in the 30s, a good sign of winter to come, and we upped the water temp to 102 which, for us, is very hot. We needed to bounce up and out of the tub for a while, maybe 2-3 minutes at a time and then go and sink back into the water. You can always find a use for a cool-down seat!
Like I said before, I've never seen a Euphoria in person but have heard Marquis makes a good tub.
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My head is spinning on this one. I have owned both and currently own the Euphoria.
Let me just say that you can't judge the size of a tub by what the manufacturer says the gallons are nor by the exterior dimensions.
Try them both and judge for yourself.
The Marquis does have the best warranty in the industry and will save you money over time!
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This could turn into an ugly bashing session, which I don't want. I like both brands however, IMO you get more for the money with the Euphoria.
I would be very interested in someone measuring the inside depth at the two deep corner seats, from seat to bar top on a Grandee and post it, I will do the same with the Euphoria. Likewise I would be interested in an inside measurement from front to back and side to side at the lowest point you can get to so we can get an idea of interior space.
Perk, I never said the Grandee was not bigger I said it was not a foot bigger.
The comments about warranty and cost of ownership are based on these facts. Marquis covers light bulbs, fuses, filter lids, cover clips and many more items longer than anyone out there including HS. Marquis has fewer filters to replace, no headrests to buy later and less expensive components to replace after warranty (i.e. heater).
Marquis DuraBase is a huge plus to me and again IMO looks cleaner and nicer.
As far as the "look" of the filter, I personally like the fact that they have moved the filters out of a small alcove in the corner and put them in a position to create more of a vortex action for the skimming. It also allows for more corner seating which most bathers seem to prefer. In addition this type of a system has eliminated the hassle of weir gate failure and cavitating the pumps.
I also feel that the "splash guard coping" on the bar top allows for a better grip getting in and out of the spa and creates a tighter seal with the cover than a flat bar top lip.
It's my understanding that HS went to 2 speed motors on some of their models this year and I would hope that the Grande is one of those. When I purchased my Marquis, HS was using 48-frame motors vs Marquis 56 frame and they only offered single speed. I think that low speed therapy is important on both pumps.
Both companies are known for their customer service and industry leadership. HS is a larger company but Marquis has proven to be as much of a contend for them as anyone. Both are highly inovative award winning manufactures.
(http:// http://www.marquisspas.com/images/img_spa_euphoria_lg.gif)
(http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/jpgs/grandee_pearl.jpg).
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BTW, the variance in seating such as the two cool down seats and molding also adds to the disparities in water capacities in both units.
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Also let's not confuse Space with how many gallons of water a spa holds. Case in point would be the Lotus bay by D-1, it's 7'8" x 7'8" x 40" and only holds 375 gallons of water. Compare this with the larger Sarena Bay which is 7'8" x 10' x 40" that holds 500 gallons. Differences in seating are the reasons for the disparity in water volume. i.e. different seat heights, molded seating, etc..............the open barrier free seating of the Grandee means there is more depth and surface area for water, hence its' larger volume compared to the Euphoria which has Multi level and contoured seating.
Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer
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Stuart,
I see you made a point to repost picture such that the euphoria looked bigger than the grandee. Where did you find the bigger euphoria picture? I wasn't able to find it when looking on the marquis site.
As for cost savings, we'll just disagree. You sell the things, you obviously back them, good for you. My belief is that a grandee costs less to run when running nominally. You only speak of when things break.
As for contoured seats, don't see `em from the picture, I see little pods. But, having not sat in one, I won't judge whether it is comfortable or not.
As for cool down seats, when it is 10 degrees outside I bet the people stuck in those seats would kill to be able to stick their chest under water. I could see it being good for kids though.
The rest is a Euphoria commercial, sell sell sell baby!
-Ed
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wow did this topic rile up some emotion or what????
Ed, Marquis and Hot Spring BOTH make top notch, high quality, energy efficient hot tubs. End of debate.
850-R, wet test the spas you are considering, then go with the spa you feel most comfortable in.
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850-R,
Well a lot of people are comparing the Grandee to the Euphoria, so I thought I would talk about the Optima. The warranties are all three of the models are going to be comparable, and anyone touting theirs as better when comparing these brands should be ________ (add your own word). Purchase the spa from the dealer you feel the most comfortable.
One of the previous posts talked about how great the moto-massage was on the Grandee. I agree it is a great massage, but did you know you can adjust one of the seats in the Optima to massage your spinal column just like the moto-massage does in the Grandee? It is the seat in the Optima that has the two Fluidix-ST jets on top of each other. With the exception of the Accu-Sage seat all of the jets on the Sundance Optima are completely adjustable and interchangeable. This allows the user of the spa to have complete control of the massage you are receiving.
I have to disagree with the Marquis and Hotspring promoters stating their filtration is better. I agree that the Hotspring Tri-X filtration is better than pretty much every filtration out there in terms of durability and maintenance. However, the Hotsrping Grandee does not come standard with the Tri-X filtration. The Optima uses the Micro-Clean filtration system. It is certified by the NSF to purify (not clean) water down to 1 micron. Hotspring has had their standard filtration cartridges to clean water down to 18 microns. This 18 microns certification was done by the NSF, as well. As far as I am aware, Hotspring has not certified their Tri-X cartridges by the NSF at this time. Marquis uses a standard filter cartridge in their spas.
However, I would not consider the type of cartridge in the spa as the most important aspect in filtration. The most important aspect is when you clean the cartridges do the cartridges get exposed to the rest of the spa? The answer is yes to the Eurphoria and no for the Grandee and Optima. The Grandee and Optima both trap the debris that will undoubtedly fall out when cleaning the spa. I recommend you to take out the cartridges for all of the spas you are looking at and see the stuff falling out and getting exposed in the Euphoria.
The Sundance also has an air-blower that neither the Hotsring nor Marquis use. Now, I personally would never use the air blower, but it is a feature that neither of those brands have, and if people didn’t like it Sundance would not use it. It is also a heater air blower so don’t believe them when the Hotspring guy says it is going to cool down the spa in the winter.
Just thought I would help out a little.
Chris
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Hey Ed,
The picture readjusting was supposed to be a joke. I didn't find a bigger picture I simply changed the size, you can go into the help menu and see how that is done if you would like or PM me and I will show you.
BTW, I've owned, sold, serviced and spent a great deal of time around both brands and they are very similar operating costs. I actually sold HS longer than I’ve sold Marquis!
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Ed...
The comment about the cool down seats on the Euphoria just does not hold up..In my spa they are the favorite seat by "most women"...no matter the time of year...again both spas the Grandee and the Euphoria offer great therapy and are built by company's that stand behind their products...As far as energy cost to run I think they both would be very very simlair.....I am unsure as to why you feel the hot springs would be less....maybe you could share why....
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As far as energy cost to run I think they both would be very very simlair.....I am unsure as to why you feel the hot springs would be less....maybe you could share why....
You are correct, that is presumptuous of me, and I got a little riled. What does Marquis estimate the operating cost of the tub to be?
-Ed
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Interesting to personally not like a tub for the "lack of cool down seat" then come back and bash the same tub's cooldown seat upon learning that it has them ???
850-R,
I wet tested each of the 3 tubs in my shopping as those were the top of my list (with the exception of D1 lotus bay which I ruled out only because of the dealer). I ended up choosing the Euphoria (non-SA) based primarily on comfort, versatility of therapy, solid, simplified design and warranty.
I'll reiterate the best feedback you've gotten... all three are great choices, the wet tests should tell you which one is the best choice for you! Let us know what you choose.
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Hey Ed,
The picture readjusting was supposed to be a joke. I didn't find a bigger picture I simply changed the size, you can go into the help menu and see how that is done if you would like or PM me and I will show you.
BTW, I've owned, sold, serviced and spent a great deal of time around both brands and they are very similar operating costs. I actually sold HS longer than I’ve sold Marquis!
Stuart, yes, send me a PM for the size. It is helpful to try and size them the same to make it easier to compare the two visually.
As for selling HS before, I remember this marquis/hot springs thread from another forum:
http://www.poolsearch.org/forum/read.php?f=8&i=12539&t=12539
where you went into some of your HS history.
It is funny because you accuse Chris H of being a Hot Springs shill in the thread, but he is "hawking" Sundance now! Assuming it is the same names/handles...
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Interesting to personally not like a tub for the "lack of cool down seat" then come back and bash the same tub's cooldown seat upon learning that it has them ???
Sorry emo, I'll connect the dots: there are 2 of them, and they use up the corners.
A cool down seat is a good thing, most people sit in them temporarily to.. oh.. i dunno.. COOL DOWN. Corner seats are, in my experience, the more popular seats where people want to sit and stay for a while. In freezing weather you just lost 2 of your corner seats for no good reason, in my opinion.
I also said one can always find a use for a cool down seat. Maybe the shallower seat helps with kids being able to sit up in the tub?
When my wife and I were in the tub a few nights ago, and when we had friends over in the tub last night (which was warmer here in MD) we all bobbed up into the cool air for a few minutes to cool off but 90% of the time it was everything under water but their heads!
I imagine if someone had to sit in a cool down seat for the entire time it would be unpleasant, but Mendo swears that never happens. Maybe when they wet test the dealer could pump up the AC. 8)
Hope that helps with any confusion you have had over this.
-Ed
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As for selling HS before, I remember this marquis/hot springs thread from another forum:
http://www.poolsearch.org/forum/read.php?f=8&i=12539&t=12539
where you went into some of your HS history.
It is funny because you accuse Chris H of being a Hot Springs shill in the thread, but he is "hawking" Sundance now! Assuming it is the same names/handles...
Actually I wasn't accusing him of "being a Hot Springs shill" but rather acknowledging his passion for the brand.
That was on the tail of HotSpring making many well-needed changes and there may have been some lack of full understanding of the current upgrades on both Chris’s and my part.
I pretty much stopped posting on that forum after I emailed the admin several times about the destructiveness and sheer lying in J/A's posts in addition to all of the alias's he was using and the fact that he preyed on every new poster with emails directing them to his website. They said they could do nothing about it and I found a different board....
You would have to look at those cool down seats as they are deeper than you think!
BTW, what do you think about measuring the Grandee for me? Like I said I would be interested in depth from seat to bar top and then width and length inside at the seat level?
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Thanks Ed. I'm used to dots connected in a straight line...
I sure am glad the Euphoria has 4 popular corner seats rather than only 3 ;)
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BTW, amidst all of this have I said that I think the Grande is a really cool tub? I like the Envoy better..
Actually I like the Marquis better but the Envoy is really cool also...
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You would have to look at those cool down seats as they are deeper than you think!
Indeed, the water depth varies between 13 and 18 inches, before slouching, depending upon water level and amount of bather displacement (the seat depth differs by about a 3 between the two).
As Mendo mentioned, women tend to stay in those seats. They have fantastic therapy and are great for reading.
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Chris H,
Good plug for sundance but I've got to say that the dirtiest water we saw in any spa at the AQUA show was in the Sundance. It could have been that the weir door kept sticking when the rep was explaining filtration to us. Jets were pretty cool and I'm thrilled with what they have finally done to improve the cabinets.
Anybody else notice that?
BTW, did anyone get you the Phoenix Pictures?
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You are correct, that is presumptuous of me, and I got a little riled. What does Marquis estimate the operating cost of the tub to be?
-Ed
Ed Marquis lists operating cost based on a national average of electrial costs to be $17.70 per month using the spa 30 minutes 3 times a week....
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Thanks Ed. I'm used to dots connected in a straight line...
Then you never did calculus.
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I modified out the other funny, witty responses to your "response". We are just now starting to talk numbers and measurements and don't want to encourage this "personal" side of the debate.
-Ed
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Ed Marquis lists operating cost based on a national average of electrial costs to be $17.70 per month using the spa 30 minutes 3 times a week....
Mendocino,
HS lists the operating costs to be between $11.73 and $16.92. Here is the link: http://www.hotspring.com/Spas_Built_Last/energy_testing.html
That is 6 times a week, 15 minutes jets, 15 minutes cover off and just soaking. 102 degrees. Price broken out by ambient temperature which is mostly, I would guess, heat lost through the top. That is about equavalent to 3 times a week at 30 minutes for the Marquis rating, plus an extra 1.5 hours with the cover off, which probably isn't taken into acount in the Marquis rating.
So the HS will cost less each month to operate if you believe the respective marketing literature. Now, if only that cost savings over 5 years adds up to the replacement cost of the lightbulb that isn't covered in the warranty and we can put all of this nastiness behind us! 8)
-Ed
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“Good plug for sundance but I've got to say that the dirtiest water we saw in any spa at the AQUA show was in the Sundance. It could have been that the weir door kept sticking when the rep was explaining filtration to us. Jets were pretty cool and I'm thrilled with what they have finally done to improve the cabinets.”
It was dirty because you went in it and didn’t put any di-chlor after use. Felt a lot better than your Marquis didn’t it?
They upgraded the Maxxus to their flagship. I haven’t seen it, but it supposedly looks like one of the D1 units. They also are upgrading their Micro-clean filtration. I guess even the best can be improved.
What did they do with their cabinets? I didn’t hear anything about that. Unless you are talking about the natural wood colored Sunstrong cabinet.
By the way, I do not “hawk” products. I am a true believer in the quality and workmanship of Hotspring and Sundance and the dealers of those brands. There really isn’t a need for me to talk about the quality of Hotspring when we already have someone to do that. I am biased to those brands because I have the most contacts with dealers that sell those brands. Those dealers tend to have the best reputation for customer service in that area.
Just to give you an idea of my “area” (Eastern PA, All of NJ and DE), in every one of these counties the best dealer (in terms of reputation of the dealer and customer service) is now a Hotspring or Sundance dealer. I don’t think that is a coincidence. I am probably going to get bashed by a NJ dealer, but Hotspring didn’t do “reorganizing” in NJ last year because their dealers were providing great customer service.
And no, no one got me Phoenix pictures. However, if you look on JA’s site and on the Phoenix site to compare the pump/motor you will see that they are the same except that the Phoenix pump has a yellow colored wet end. That tells me he does not change the pumps when he upgrades them to a Haven. That is one lie, hopefully we can get more.
Chris H
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Something else to ponder....................Marquis and D-1 "marketing" for eneregy costs are based on using the spa 3 times per week with the jets ON for 30 mins.............hotspring bases theirs on 15 mins of jets on and 15 with them off...................interesting...........This is fun putting gas on the fire ;D
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You would have to look at those cool down seats as they are deeper than you think!
BTW, what do you think about measuring the Grandee for me? Like I said I would be interested in depth from seat to bar top and then width and length inside at the seat level?
Can do. I'll try and remember to do that this evening and will report back. Do the same for the Euphoria as it will help get a better understanding of the spacing involved.
-Ed
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Hotspring also tested the spas 6 times a week not 3.
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Something else to ponder....................Marquis and D-1 "marketing" for eneregy costs are based on using the spa 3 times per week with the jets ON for 30 mins.............hotspring bases theirs on 15 mins of jets on and 15 with them off...................interesting...........This is fun putting gas on the fire ;D
Flames erupting! 8)
Hot springs bases it on 6 times a week, not 3. PLUS hot springs also adds 15 minutes with the cover off, which marquis doesn't add.
So the HS is equivalent to the Marquis number in terms of jets on, and then HS adds another 1.5 HOURS with the cover off. And it still comes in cheaper to run.
But you knew that because you looked at the fine print and decided to leave that off! Good gas on the fire, though.
Now, to inject realism into the numbers, I would imagine it also depends on tub size, making it hard to just advertise one number for the whole product line. But HS makes part of their sales pitch their energy efficiency. It is hard to beat.
-Ed
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Isn't it difficult to use the spa with the cover still on????
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Mendocino,
HS lists the operating costs to be between $11.73 and $16.92. Here is the link: http://www.hotspring.com/Spas_Built_Last/energy_testing.html
That is 6 times a week, 15 minutes jets, 15 minutes cover off and just soaking. 102 degrees. Price broken out by ambient temperature which is mostly, I would guess, heat lost through the top. That is about equavalent to 3 times a week at 30 minutes for the Marquis rating, plus an extra 1.5 hours with the cover off, which probably isn't taken into acount in the Marquis rating.
So the HS will cost less each month to operate if you believe the respective marketing literature. Now, if only that cost savings over 5 years adds up to the replacement cost of the lightbulb that isn't covered in the warranty and we can put all of this nastiness behind us! 8)
-Ed
of course the Marquis is with the cover off.....Do you think that they are excepting you to operate with the cover on in scuba gear.....why the range with Hot Springs...No offense to you but that is a huge marketing leap on Hot Springs to even sugesst opearting cost with cover on and cover off...
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Ed,
Carrying this on over a couple of dollars a month is really getting petty. I get your point and have said that I like the HS but will be happy to do a cost for cost breakdown on things like Circ Pumps, Heaters, Ozone, CoverLifts, Jets, Filters, pillows and other components that will have to be replaced over time. We have all made our points and I hate to see this keep going back and forth. As I have stated I've owned both spas and saw no difference in operational cost, I'm sure that many others can vouch for the same thing.
BTW, I will measure the Euphoria later today and post that.
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Ed...
by the way using their operating range it starts out at 8.85....or 2.88 less than the Hot Springs.... ;)...of course on the high range of the scale the Hot Springs will save you 78 cents....2 well built spas very very comparable energy costs.... 8)
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Isn't it difficult to use the spa with the cover still on????
Maybe I misspoke. With the jets on, the measurements measure the same thing: 1.5 hours a week with the jets on.
Additionally, the HS adds 1.5 hours with the top off, assuming just sitting w/o the jets on.
So the Marquis measurement is 1.5 hours with the jets. Presumably, after the 30 minute jetted soak, you get out of the tub and put the cover on.
The HS is 1.5 jets, 1.5 no cover and soaking, for 3 hours total.
That's how I read the different measurements. There should be no confusion there.
-Ed
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Ed,
Carrying this on over a couple of dollars a month is really getting petty.
Not more petty than talking pillows and lightbulbs in a warranty. I've said many times (maybe in this thread) a few dollars either way a month, or a little more effort to maintain water chemistry should not matter if you like the tub.
You said in your opinion the Euphoria will cost less to own, and I disagree. I think the hot springs costs less per month to operate and those savings will counterbalance the small things that *might* need replacing and are not covered in the HS warranty.
This isn't petty because we aren't trying to sell tubs. The original poster can make decisions like depth and comfort on their own. I don't sell tubs, and you don't get on the internet forums to sell tubs. I like to know the differences between brands, and when people make sweeping comments it is educational to pin them down and see what they are talking about.
I do come across gruff when I do that, but this is an impersonal medium. I don't mean any true offense, and if I did, I'd just send a nasty PM! ;D
BTW, I will measure the Euphoria later today and post that.
I'll try to do the same with the grandee.
-Ed
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of course the Marquis is with the cover off.....Do you think that they are excepting you to operate with the cover on in scuba gear.....why the range with Hot Springs...No offense to you but that is a huge marketing leap on Hot Springs to even sugesst opearting cost with cover on and cover off...
Um, read my post again, I think you missed what I was saying. Both measure 1.5 hours of jets. Additionally, the HS adds another 1.5 hours with the cover off to simulate sitting in the tub with no jets, so a total of 3 hours included in the testing.
Let me try a table format:
MQ HS
-----------------------------------------------------
Total Jetted Time per Week: 1.5 1.5
Non-Jet Soak per Week : 0 1.5
----------------------------------------------------
Total Usage Time per Week: 1.5 3.0
When it is cold out, leaving the tub with the cover off for 1.5 hours *is* significant. It is also significant that with this extra 1.5 hours of cooling time the HS still comes in cheaper.
-Ed
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Ed...
by the way using their operating range it starts out at 8.85....or 2.88 less than the Hot Springs.... ;)...of course on the high range of the scale the Hot Springs will save you 78 cents....2 well built spas very very comparable energy costs.... 8)
The only # I have is the $17.7?, could you provide references for the other Marquis numbers? What starts out at $8.85? Based on a HS number of $11 or so, that's more than 78 cents less than $17.
Post a link to the marquis numbers. Not saying you are incorrect, just saying I haven't seen them, and your quote above doesn't reference them.
The only numbers I see on the Marquis website say "$10-$30 a month" to operate the spa!
From: http://www.marquisspas.com/qa.asp#4
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How much does it cost to run a spa?
That depends slightly on the model, climate and usage. But, you can estimate the cost to run at $10 to $30 per month on average. The low operational costs are due to the extra steps Marquis takes to ensure the highest quality, lowest maintenance, and most efficient spa on the market. We insulate the spa with heat reflecting Low-E spa wrap around the entire spa in addition to full foam insulation. The adjustable straps and linear heat seal assure the cover is sealed and energy efficient. The high-output, low-amperage industrial duty pumps run cool and work smoothly to keep operational cost to a minimum.
-Ed
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Ed
Marquis provides dealers with an energy use guide/tag that looks very much like what you see on appliances when shopping....I did not go to the Hot Springs site...but you said they had a range of 11 to 16 for the grandee and I took your word for it....for the Euphoria....the range on the guide starts out at the 8.85 but the average is the 17....
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Ed
Marquis provides dealers with an energy use guide/tag that looks very much like what you see on appliances when shopping....I did not go to the Hot Springs site...but you said they had a range of 11 to 16 for the grandee and I took your word for it....for the Euphoria....the range on the guide starts out at the 8.85 but the average is the 17....
Cool, that is a start. But, you need 2 more things with those numbers: ambient temperature and set temperature. You just can't infer anything without what the temperature is set to.
If you don't want to hit the HS site, I'll post the relevant numbers here, and you can do the same:
temp is 102 degrees.
at 50deg outside, cost is $16.92
at 60deg outside, cost is $15.81
at 70deg outside, cost is $11.73
cost based on 8.5kw/hour
Note the big difference as the temperature falls. Alot of this goes back to the fact that the HS in the test have their cover off for 3 hours a week, not 1.5 hours a week as in the marquis test, I would bet. Cover off is a big deal when the temp is 102 and it is 50 degrees outside.
Are there any HS dealers who get energy more refined energy cost estimates? Are there more accurate numbers to be posted?
-Ed
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I would bet ambient temp is 20C/68F and spa is 40C/104F. That is the info upon which D-1 offers its efficiency stats.
I must admit this is turning into a bit of a TP v FF or circ vs no-circ kinda debate.
In the end, any one spending 7-11K on a spa that is worrying about $1-5/month on their hydro bill is a bit of a mystery to me.
HTM
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I agree completely with you HTM. Marquis, D-1, Hot Spring, Sundance...........ALL are energy efficient, if they weren't none of them would be considered TOP spas. Period, end of discussion!
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Then you never did calculus.
Well shoot! no one told me that calculus was a prerequisite to hot tub forum reading. I'll go dust of my off my integral calculus text as soon as I get out of my scuba gear ;D
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Interior depth of the Euphoria at the deepest seat from top of seat to top of lip is 32 inches, interior width at widest point is 6 ft and front to back at widest point is 5' 11". I'm not trying to prove anything here just thought it would be interesting to compare. Both the length and width measurements were at the center of the seats for depth.
Ed,
I haven't ever read a debate between you and James A. but would love to see you on his site defending HS to the last detail!
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Interior depth of the Euphoria at the deepest seat from top of seat to top of lip is 32 inches, interior width at widest point is 6 ft and front to back at widest point is 5' 11". I'm not trying to prove anything here just thought it would be interesting to compare. Both the length and width measurements were at the center of the seats for depth.
Stuart,
Here are my measurements for the Grandee:
Interior size is 72"x83", give or take an inch. The regular seats (benches) are about 27-28" deep. The 2 corner moto-massage seats are about 30-31" deep. The cool-down seat is about 14" deep. Heights measured to the top of the tub.
What is interesting is the 2 moto-massage seats are the same depths measured from seat base straight to the "top" of the tub, but when sitting in one versus the other there is a definite feel that one is depeer than the other. I think, perhaps, the back angle on one is different than the other to give the illusion of more depth, but did not measure that. Do any HS dealers know about this or am I making this up?
-Ed
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Ed,
I haven't ever read a debate between you and James A. but would love to see you on his site defending HS to the last detail!
Many people far nobler than I have tried to call Jim out.
Sorry if this got heated, I was perfectly fine in the beginning of the thread to stick with the "all are good, go out and wet test and decide for yourself". Some things got said that I didn't think were true, some number got shot around, some opinions fell out and at the end of the day we all learned something.
Now, cue bright fluffy music and let's all be friends again and enjoy hot tubs! ;D
-Ed
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Um, read my post again, I think you missed what I was saying. Both measure 1.5 hours of jets. Additionally, the HS adds another 1.5 hours with the cover off to simulate sitting in the tub with no jets, so a total of 3 hours included in the testing.
Let me try a table format:
MQ HS
-----------------------------------------------------
Total Jetted Time per Week: 1.5 1.5
Non-Jet Soak per Week : 0 1.5
----------------------------------------------------
Total Usage Time per Week: 1.5 3.0
When it is cold out, leaving the tub with the cover off for 1.5 hours *is* significant. It is also significant that with this extra 1.5 hours of cooling time the HS still comes in cheaper.
-Ed
Ed
I appreciate your call for peace and happiness...I Just read this post which I did not catch yesterday and one thing I want to point out to you...is that the table you use is a bit mis leading in that yes if the cover was off for 1.5 hours at a single time it would be significant...but having it off for 15 minutes at a time is going to have very very little effect on energy use....and again on the low side of the scales that both manufactures provide the Marquis is less on the high side Hot Springs is less...but they are so close in the end it does not really matter...both are well made well backed and each have their supporters...
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if the cover was off for 1.5 hours at a single time it would be significant...but having it off for 15 minutes at a time is going to have very very little effect on energy use.
I wonder if this is true. Let's throw out Marquis, and HS and energy efficiency and all that.
I'm asking this question solely out of geek curiosity, not in an attempt to make a hot tub point. As a purely thermal, academic point I wonder which causes more heat loss:
1) Taking a cover off for 1.5 hours, then leaving the cover on and undisturbed for the next 142.5 hours
or
2) Taking the cover off for 15 minutes every 24 hours 6 times.
My guess would be that taking the cover off 15 minutes each time is worse because heat transfer is fastest when temperatures are at their greatest difference, and at the start of each 15 minute period, the hot tub would have had a chance to heat back up to its original temperature.
I *know* there were some thermal guys on this board for other disussions. Of course, maybe none of them are reading this thread anymore! :-/
-Ed
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Ed,
The reason I do not think what you are suggesting applies is this...you use your tub....lets say for the time the study did for 15 minutes with jets on and it maintaining its tempture...you than sit for 15 soaking no jets...the spa was already at temp and is just holding it temperature for the next 15 if it drops at all it may be 2 degrees at the very most...if you want to find out what really takes place simply go open you cover an let it sit for 15 minutes with no jets and see if the heater even needs to come on....I would of course do this at the time you most likely use your spa....and not say 3:00 am when it might be the coldest but chances you won't be in the tub....I know in my tub during the first 15 minutes on the coldest of nights which for us here is not that cold maybe in the 30's....the temp does not drop.. around 20 minutes I may lose a degree....
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Maybe if Ed's test was done as strictly a heat loss experiment. Power off the spa for a week, and see what the ending water temperature was at the end of the test? But you'd have to control the external factors like ambient temperature, wind, and othere things that affect heat loss.
Brewman
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Yup, you are probably right. The amount of energy it takes to kick up the heater for 1.5 hours is more than the trickle at 15 minute pops.
Some loose ends:
1) The corner moto seats in the grandee *are* sloped differently. I never knew that about my own tub! I always assumed the bottoms were deeper, but after measuring for stuart I saw the bottom measurement was the same, but sitting in one the water hits the bottom of my chin, sitting in the other, the water hits me just under my collar bone. And yes, my spa is level. 8)
2) The yellow card energy efficiency things are interesting. I still say the yellow card ratings and the HS website numbers measure different ranges, BUT do *all* tubs come with those yellow card things? I would be interested in seeing those yellow card values for other tubs, including HS, just out of curiosity.
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Great reading guys.....this is what Forums are all about! ;D
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The yellow card energy efficiency things are interesting. I still say the yellow card ratings and the HS website numbers measure different ranges, BUT do *all* tubs come with those yellow card things? I would be interested in seeing those yellow card values for other tubs, including HS, just out of curiosity.
Not sure what yellow card you're referring to: I'm sure not going to read this lengthy thread to find out...
::)
But I know that no subjective studies have been done or are likely to ever be done to provide a comprehensive energy consumption comparison like those done for home appliances. Main reason? There are millions more home appliances being sold than tubs. If you took all the water heaters, microwave ovens, TV sets, Airconditioners, Furnaces and the like - you can see why the government sees fit to do studies, or require them to be done or whatever - but the numbers on tubs and their 'luxury item' status just doesn't warranty Uncle Sam getting involved.
I am, of course, doing everything in my power to help that situation - by selling as many spas as I can.
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Chas...
Marquis provides us with an energy use guide or tag and they very much resemble the tags used on home applinaces.....yellow in color with different estimated energy costs.....I would think Hot Springs has something similar if not in visual appearance than in estimated energy use and estimated costs....
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Why does every industry that makes a product have a tag with the estimated energy usage, including cars on gas milage, and home spas don't. If you go and buy any major appliance for your home it will have a yellow tag.
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Stop by our store and we will have them...Of course this is not a government study but does give some idea of energy use.....
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Stop by our store and we will have them...Of course this is not a government study but does give some idea of energy use.....
I think that was my point exactly: It's not a government study. Here's a quote from the Federal Trade Commission:
Suppose you're in the market for a new refrigerator-freezer. Different models of refrigerators with the same capacity can vary dramatically in the amount of electricity they use. For one popular size and configuration, for example, the annual electricity consumption varies across models from a low of about 600 kilowatt-hours a year to a high of more than 800 kilowatt-hours a year. Based on national average electricity prices, that means the annual cost to operate this refrigerator can range from about $50 to $70, depending on which model you buy. A $20 difference in annual operating costs might not sound like much, but remember that you will enjoy these savings year after year for the life of the appliance, while you must pay any difference in purchase price only once. As a result, you may actually save money by buying the more expensive, more energy-efficient model.
You can learn about the energy efficiency of an appliance that you're thinking about buying through the yellow-and-black EnergyGuide label it displays. The Federal Trade Commission's Appliance Labeling Rule requires appliance manufacturers to put these labels on:
* Refrigerators, freezers, dishwashers, clothes washers
* Water heaters, furnaces, boilers
* Central air conditioners, room air conditioners, heat pumps
* Pool heaters
When you shop for one of these appliances in a dealer's showroom, you should find the labels hanging on the inside of an appliance or secured to the outside. The law requires that the labels specify:
* The capacity of the particular model
* For refrigerators, freezers, dishwashers, clothes washers and water heaters, the estimated annual energy consumption of the model
* For air conditioners, heat pumps, furnaces, boilers and pool heaters, the energy efficiency rating
* The range of estimated annual energy consumption, or energy efficiency ratings, of comparable appliances.
Some appliances also may feature the EnergyStar logo, which means that the appliance is significantly more energy efficient than the average comparable model. For more information on the EnergyStar program, operated by the Department of Energy and the Environmental Protection Agency, visit the EnergyStar website at www.energystar.gov.
HotSpring did in fact hire a company to do an energy study. It would be great if other companies would send tubs to the same company to have the exact same study done. But to date, nobody has. Instead, they hire companies of their own, or they simply do a 'study' themselves. Fine - as I said in the post above: there aren't enough tubs sold, and they are still in the luxury item status that means the feds aren't going to step in as they have in the home appliance industry.
So if your tub maker has a yellow sticker, or has estimates of operating costs available - that is your proof that they do care about power consumption -and that they are trying to keep operating costs low. But since they are all done by different testing organizations, using different testing protocols, they cannot be used to do direct comparisons.
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You have selected three of the better spas out there...Last year I started as a shopper for my spa and this year I am a Marquis dealer....
Very interesting 101. What did you do before you became a dealer? How do you like being in the business so far?
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Hi...
I am enjoying it very much...I feel very fortunate very blessed that we have started out so well....and I thank many of the good people on this board for their knowledge and wisdom....you can check our web page if you want to know more about us.....
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i know this is an old post that i'm commenting on but i'm killing time waiting for guest to arrive for dinner........anyway this topic on energy usage is moot to me. if you can afford to purchase a $6500.00-$8000.00 + hot tub and then spend possibly another grand with site development and /or installation fees i can't begin to understand all the concern over a few cents either way between manufacturers. other then there must be a lot of people out there who either are awfully lonesome or spending too much on plastic and mincing pennies to keep costs down!
my point? there's other topics much more important to worry over....buy your tub and enjoy it! and a merry christmas to all!! :D
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i know this is an old post that i'm commenting on but i'm killing time waiting for guest to arrive for dinner........anyway this topic on energy usage is moot to me. if you can afford to purchase a $6500.00-$8000.00 + hot tub and then spend possibly another grand with site development and /or installation fees i can't begin to understand all the concern over a few cents either way between manufacturers. other then there must be a lot of people out there who either are awfully lonesome or spending too much on plastic and mincing pennies to keep costs down!
my point? there's other topics much more important to worry over....buy your tub and enjoy it! and a merry christmas to all!! :D
No, I don't see anyone in this thread being penny-wise, pound foolish. Such implications came up in the midst of a disagreement (a-la "strawman argument" (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/straw.htm)) to mischaracterize the points being made. Another example of such misrepresenation involved the ridiculous notion that people need to be in the tubs with the cover on. Neither suggestions were offered as the actual argument, and both were elevated as straw men to deflect and discredit the actual arguments.
If one tub costs $30 a month and another costs $15 a month, the problem isn't the extra $15 a month. The problem is percentage and efficiency. A well made tub costs less to operate. It follows that the "best"/most efficient tubs cost the least to operate across a variety of circumstances and environments. As such monthly operation costs speak to the engineering of a tub which, amongst hot tub geeks, is important.
Of smaller importance (to salesguys, I'd guess) is the idea that some people see two tubs of seemingly equal quality, and one costs around $700 less to buy. Whether it is right or not, they might purchase the less expensive tub and wonder why others pay more. If the less expensive tub costs more per month to operate, even by $5 or $10 a month, over the average life of a tub (7-15 years, I'd assume) the tubs actually, then, cost the same.
Could the less expenseive tub be better? absolutely, but that is based on wet test and comfort. People who do it just to save a buck, however, should know that total cost of ownership makes it a wash in the price department.
One reason why manufacturers really don't do direct comparisons is that if they do, there is going to be some winner, and it might not be them, and people will make assumptions based on the tub from those numbers. Some of those assumptions will be true, and some will not, but all will affect sales.
The Marquis site says something about their tubs cost $10-$30 to operate per month. The Hot Spring site says something like $10-$15 a month. Mendo says his yellow tag says it costs as little as $8 a month. The numbers are all over the place and have *no* truly quantifying information. Hot Springs provides *more* information on conditions and rationale for the number, but no one provides a complete set, that I have seen.
-Ed
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Wow, I didn't read all of this thread but I'm assuming Ed has a HS spa? I think if you stay with the big boys you will be ok. A couple of $'s either way shouldn't make a difference.
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well it's like this, any of the top three brand tubs are gonna be very close in efficiency......electrical cost can vary between owners since each lives in a different local and each uses the tub differently. i know the standard is based on so many minutes with jets on ,off etc. etc. but the standard for let's say autos ...the epa fuel comsumption tests still is just a guide on what a owner might expect though it's not written in stone this test is standard throughout the industry whereas the efficiency tests for tubs are different from manufactuer to manufactuer .
paying for gas , oil, tyres and ignition parts are all part of operating a vehicle. these costs are accepted by the owner/operator and are usually factored in as part of the total cost of ownership, whether bmw, kia or cadilac.
imo so should the long term cost of electricity use along with the other obvious items needed for hot tubs be factored into the over all cost of the pleasure of soaking. with an auto you have some control, a person can op for cheap gas , cheap tyres, oil and extended service intervals can save money in the short term. maybe a tub owner might save some on chems, filters etc. but the electrical cost will always be there just like gas for a car. you have to have both if you like soaking and riding. soooo my point is why fret if you have the money to purchase a bmw then put up with the expense of the maintainence cost. if you can afford $6500.00 -$8000.00 for a tub plus maybe site development and electrical service then be prepared to pay something for the pleasure of soaking and don't fret over the electrics unless the tub home work wasn't done and the tub is a monster electric hog!
and that shouldn't happen with all the good advice i've seen shared from this forum.