Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: mrsmets on December 03, 2004, 09:18:09 am
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Hello everyone! I have a question for anyone that can help. I have had a hot tub for about one year. Tiger River Siberian. Thanks to the help of everyone here I made a purchase afer much research. I am now having problems. When we first bought the tub in the first week I had a rash, but our maintenance has been constant and it went away. About 4 months ago we noticed white flakes... they were terrible. No smell, clear water, and the flakes were not particuliarly slimy. Went in to the dealer and they sent someone out. Coincidentally?? the tag from the top of the cover right on the seam appeared to deteriorate and they concluded that was the cause for the flakes. so to be safe we shocked drained and filled and degreased filter. Again about a month later white flakes, Drained changed filters and shocked again. About two weeks ago my daughter and I had a rash. We figured it must have been the hot tub and have been staying out. Well yesterday again, white flakes and to me the cover seems much heavier. (water logged??) So of course I'm doing research now and the service guy is coming out again. Chlorine level is good, ph is good, water is clear and no smell. Just these white flakes that I have been using the skimmer to get out. Almost feel like paper... and the thought of mold is driving me nuts. I just can't imagine what the problem is. We bought this just over a year ago... and it was a floor model. We keep it clean and maybe go in two to three times a week. We check it daily..and keep the cover off for at least 15 min a day and there is an ozonator....I just don't understand what the problem can be.. When the flakes dry they are thin film...and yellowish. Any ideas at all? Could it be it was a floor model? The service dept thought maybe silicone that lined the pipes but concluded it was not. The tub is outdoors and is a 4-5 person tub. Any help greatly appreciated. All the internet research I have been doing seems to point to mold or bacteria but there is usually cloudy water or a foul smell... this has none of that... Thanks for any help, Dawn
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Unfortunately I do beleive it is a mold. This mold is known as white algae. I happens in the plumbing where there is inadequate sanitization/circulation.
I know you said that you maintain your chlorine level, and I beleive you. Is there a chance, through the use of diverter valves, that some of the jets (and therefore part of the plumbing) was not used for a signifigant period of time(more than a week or two)?
If the answer is yes, I will give instructions on how to kill this. If not my best guess is scale but it sure sounds like white algae (a mold)
HotTubMan
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I suppose there is a chance, I run the jets daily and I have the option to change jets, and certainly try to rotate but certain ones are favored. Like the lounge chair. This has just been an ongoing problem, and how is it that the chlorine and ph would still be good.
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This stuff, just like algae will use chlorine and become resistent to certain levels of chlorine. I wish I could view a sample of it to be sure. Have you tried touching/manipulating it? If it is what I am thinking off it will be a little hard/brittle on the outside soft and mushy on the inside.
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One easy thing to try:
Superchlorinate to 10 ppm or better, leave the lid open for at least an hour with all jets on and the diverters in the middle position.
Turn off power, pull both filters and clean them. Use a hose to syphon out the filter area to remove any of the flakes which fall from the filters. (That's also why you turn off the power - to keep the flakes from traveling while the filters are out).
Replace filters and return to normal operation - if the chlorine level drops overnight, shock once more and rinse filters once more.
If it is water mold, this will go a long way towards getting rid of it.
Unfortunately, you may have to repeat this more than once.
This can happen to anyone - I don't think it was due to the spa being a floor model. I sell thirty to fourty floor models per year and haven't had it happen.
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I have touched it... It is a fine flaky film... really not slippery if you slide it between your finger tips and does not desinigrate if you rub it between your fingers. I have to believe it is in the pipes or works of the tubs..cause the flakes can be larger or smaller.. when they dry they are yellowish... thats the best i can tell you. The water is clear and there is not a foul odor at all. We use clean suits when we get in...and it is not heavily used. And if it is mold... I have personally noticed the cover has gotten heavier and I read one article that if the cover is waterlogged.. mold can be in there..is that possible?? I can take pics..if it helps..
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I haven't encoutered mold going into the water from the cover, but I wont say its not possible.
Yeah, I pic may help.
How many pool/spa retailers are there near you? If your dealer cant identify it, I would figure out who the oldest/,ost knowledgable water care dealer is in your area and take a water sample containing the flakes.
I am just a lilttle hesitant to suggest the white algae treatment procedure because I cannot see the flakes live and it may be wise to consult Watkins before doing it to make sure you aren't voiding anything.
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Just a thought.......
If the tub was a floor model and being used, it may be that your filter is old. What happens over time it the pleats break down and start to flack apart over time.
Try draing the tub, replace the filter then start it up again and see if this fixes the problem. I have noticed in my store over the past 20 years that nothing lasts forever, paper filters included...... ;D
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Its a great thought... we bought an extra filter right from the start and I have been alternating filters. I am certainly prepared to buy a new filter I just don't want to put a new one in there... suck up these flakes and have them in the new filter. Maybe I will at least try soaking this filter again and degreasing it again.
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Give the superchlorination a shot - you sure have nothing to lose, it's a normal part of tub care anyway.
But do rinse out the filters during the shock. If this is water mold, you will have a bunch of it in the filters after you run them for an hour, and you will want to get it all out of the system so the chlorine can work on whatever doesn't get into the filters.
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thankyou, i have been working on it already... Your right I have nothing to lose. I did the chlorine and it has been running and open. I even unzipped the cover to see if it looks ok in there..and it does. Hopefully it will do the trick. I guess maybe I'm just not running the hot tub often enough. I run once a day but I know some other hot tubs that kick on by themselves every so many hours... Live and learn... Other than this problem... I'm loving the tub! Thankyou everyone, I'll give you an update
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I don't thin running it daily will help, it's mainly keeping a bit of chlorine in that will prevent this. I don't know why, but once you get this you will be prone to getting it again - that is, if this turns out to be water mold.
I don't know if the tub keeps some of it in some nook, or if it comes into the tub from something in the area. I would think the latter is most likely the case.
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Chas, assuming this is water mold. I took out the filter, and there are lots of flakes in between every fold and I have been washing it over and over again. there is no way I'm going to get it all.... do i put it back in and assume the chlorine will get most of it? Do I put my second filter in? but then I have a second filter that has the mold in it? What do you think?
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Here is how I recommend dealing with the mold:
Add an isane amount of chlorine, ie 10 times normal shock. Circulate with the filters in for 2 hours. Make sure the cover is off the gases will harmnthe cover. Drain the tub and repeat at least once with the filters out this time. Soak them in a cleaning solution.
If after starting the tub up after the second shock'n'drain you see any of these flakes shoot out a jet, repeat once more.
HotTubMan
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ok, this tub has been super chlorinated, and it ran most of the day yesterday. Checked it this morning and there are still white flakes. I added more chlorine and have it running now. I'll start draining it later this afternoon, I just don't feel like I'm getting the flakes if it sat all night and they are still there
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Chas, assuming this is water mold. I took out the filter, and there are lots of flakes in between every fold and I have been washing it over and over again. there is no way I'm going to get it all.... do i put it back in and assume the chlorine will get most of it? Do I put my second filter in? but then I have a second filter that has the mold in it? What do you think?
That's exactly the way to get it: wash the filter over and over, or start with a new one or your spare. It's a total pain.
I once got it in my spa and I brought home my big pump from the store. I had to drain and refill about four time before I really had a head start on the stuff - then the chlorine took care of the rest.
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To Chas and HotTubMan,
How about adding swirl away to clean the pipes, drain and then superchlorinate. Or superchlorinate, swirl away, drain and then superchlorinate again.
Maybe the stuff is very thick and needs to be "scrubbed" - Just a thought!
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ok, this tub has been super chlorinated, and it ran most of the day yesterday. Checked it this morning and there are still white flakes. I added more chlorine and have it running now. I'll start draining it later this afternoon, I just don't feel like I'm getting the flakes if it sat all night and they are still there
Try doing it the way I suggested. Yes it costs more money and time, but it works.
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To Chas and HotTubMan,
How about adding swirl away to clean the pipes, drain and then superchlorinate. Or superchlorinate, swirl away, drain and then superchlorinate again.
Maybe the stuff is very thick and needs to be "scrubbed" - Just a thought!
Chas and I seem to differ slightly on the trewatment procedure. In the method I outlined, I would use the swirl Away only once.
HTM
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Thanks for all the help. I was going to order a new filter today to start fresh in a couple of days. I use Spa Guard products (our local store sells) Is there any one place that is best to order chemicals. I have purchased filters from spadepot.com
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If they carry SpaGaurd hopefully they also carry BioGuard. I would suggest that you use one bag of Smart Shock 400G for each shock in the procedure I outlined.
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so spa guard is a good line of products and I should continue... and during all the shocking...do I even worry about the PH... add anything else??
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Most brands work about the same - the exceptions are ChemTech and one other I can't think of right now - it'll come to me.
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so spa guard is a good line of products and I should continue... and during all the shocking...do I even worry about the PH... add anything else??
If you are following my instructions, no, do not worry about balance. We are talking about filling and shocking for the purpose of killingthe mold. Generally the first shock does not completely kill the mold. It hurts real bad by destroying the outer "shell". Draining will remove a lkot of it. The second shock usually destroys the remainder.
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I am surprised that nobody has mentioned using a filter sock of any kind.
I have found that stretching one over the skimmer to be beneficial in collecting a large amount of the white algae. It also means that there will be a lot less stuck in the filter to get rid of.
Just don't forget about the filter sock because bromine/chlorine will cause it to disintegrate over time if left in the hot tub.
Joe
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Great idea !!!
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I am surprised that nobody has mentioned using a filter sock of any kind.
I have found that stretching one over the skimmer to be beneficial in collecting a large amount of the white algae. It also means that there will be a lot less stuck in the filter to get rid of.
Just don't forget about the filter sock because bromine/chlorine will cause it to disintegrate over time if left in the hot tub.
Joe
That is a good idea to filter the particles out, but it will not kill whats still growing in the pipes.
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ok, I am continuing to run the spas and it is heavily chlorinated. I figured i will drain it later..but may as well let the chlorine sit and run through the jets a while longer. I have never heard of the filter sock. Is it something I actually slide over the filter. I like the sounds of it if I do purchase a new filter. Again, everyone thanks for all of your help. I have to get this resolved soon. The winter weather is coming here in CT> and it would be nice if I dont' have to drain too many more times in the winter months.....so thankyou...
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Here is an example of a filter sock. It is called the SkimMor sock.
http://www.bioguard.ca/en/cleaners.html
Once again, strong chance that your existing chem dealer carries these as well.
HTM
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We had a customer that had white water mold that we could not get out no matter what we did so we hit it with an algicide, then chlorine, then swirl away and then drained it and added new filters. Never came back....
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Never came back....
The customer or the mold?
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I have seen this in our area and have determined that it is an airbourne algae. Super chlorination is the only thing that will kill it.
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The customer or the mold?
Good one....... :) :D ;D
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Just a quick update...I'm still dealing with the white flakes, I have emptied and super chlorinated... and still going........ my local spa store did send a sample into a chem lab..so waiting to hear more
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This sounds like biofilm. In order to really take care of biofilm, you need to superchlorinate the spa to 100ppm. You can do this by adding 3-5gallons of household bleach. Make sure all the jets are running and all the air controls/diverters are in the middle. Let everything run for 15 minutes, then let the water settle for 5 minutes. Do this 3 times, then drain the water. Do not let the water go for more than 2 hours at this high of a chlroine shock.
Although 100ppm sounds like a lot, here is some research to back this up.
http://www.edstrom.com/Resources.cfm?doc_id=149
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I'm suprised with the title of this thread, nobody suggested you ask your in-laws to get out!
Looking forward to what your dealer has to say.
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I'm suprised with the title of this thread, nobody suggested you ask your in-laws to get out!
Looking forward to what your dealer has to say.
I had flakes in my spa but told my 18 year old and his friends to stay out! Problem solved......
I would still say it is White Water mold, sometimes it takes several drain and fills to get it out completely...
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This sounds like biofilm. In order to really take care of biofilm, you need to superchlorinate the spa to 100ppm. You can do this by adding 3-5gallons of household bleach. Make sure all the jets are running and all the air controls/diverters are in the middle. Let everything run for 15 minutes, then let the water settle for 5 minutes. Do this 3 times, then drain the water. Do not let the water go for more than 2 hours at this high of a chlroine shock.
Although 100ppm sounds like a lot, here is some research to back this up.
http://www.edstrom.com/Resources.cfm?doc_id=149
Although I suggested granular chlorine, Serjical and I are on the same page here. DID YOU DO IT THREE TIMES AS RECOMMENDED?
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Just an update, I did the 5 gallons of bleach, ran it 15 min, sit 5... repeated three times... I do still see some flakes but I'm in the process of draining, and fill it again, and hopefully less flakes, and if i have to do it again i will...
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You wont be using the bleach to get rid of the flakes. The bleach will hopefully produce more white flakes by detaching the film from the pipes. When you drain the spa, if you have a chance, use a wet vac to get out as much water as possible. Put it up to every hole you can find on the spa.
Good luck.
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ahhh, thankyou... I thought the bleach was destroying the flakes...does anything eat away at the flakes... or I just have to keep flushing it out to get them out of there... we havne't been in this tub for three weeks now and it has been super chlorinated..for sure
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Flush. It's a pain, but lots of filter rinsing and flushing is what's needed.
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Flush. It's a pain, but lots of filter rinsing and flushing is what's needed.
Agreed.
I typed out detailed instructions on page 1 or 2. I have not had one customer follow those instructions and come back with the problem, yes they came back, but white algae gone!
Everyone cringes at the solution. It just isn't any fun.
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I have seen it take up to 4 or 5 water changes with very dedicated cleaning involved.
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I have seen it take up to 4 or 5 water changes with very dedicated cleaning involved.
AND a gift sent to a local charity in the name of your local dealer as well...
;)
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tub is drained, we are trying to flush as much as possible with hose and wet dry vac, and I have been spraying down filter.. we are in CT> and we have freezing temps here..so its not easy ... trying to get it as clean as possible cause it is just too cold to drain and fill too many times... .>i have been following your directions...along with the 4-5 gallons of bleach yesterday.. I have been following everyones directions... and taking in all the advice... Thankyou to everyone... i really hope we get this... even ordered new filters
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One last question...i feel like I'm bothering everyone... Tub has been drained for a couple of hours... we even filled it without the filter ran jets and drained again... so just before we were about to fill it... we decided to use the wet dry vac to suck the drain that releases the water...(outside of the tub on the bottom)... and there were more flakes.. and now thinking about it... all those hours of chlorine and bleach and jets running... probably doens't get down inside of those pipes... right?? so now I'm dumping water in the tub..and trying to suck from that drain... makes sense? poor bleach in there again,,, ??
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Yes that’s right! Your drain doesn't typically recirculate
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Yes that’s right! Your drain doesn't typically recirculate
Look for any other areas through which there might not be any circulation. Jets you don't use, the drain area just mentioned, air channel or air system if so equipped....
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tub has been emptied and drained and filled again. It is once again up and running. Without a doubt most of the flakes we found were right in that drain area, we just continuously dumped water and wet/dry vac them out... getting rather large flakes... anyway..the tub is filled...and there are again some small flakes floating...small and broken down... do you think it has to be drained right away...or more of this mold will grow from what is there.....it is cold out there and we are expecting snow again... and there is such a small amount
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A very interesting thread, as I am having (I believe) similar problems. Although this poster describes his flakes as being like paper. Mine look more like pieces of skin of varying sizes. I gather a bunch of them in the filter well with a small aquarium fish net and they gather into a somewhat slimey mass that can be easily squished with my fingers. I have also seen dried out flakes that are of a more brittle nature. They gather on the bottom near the pump intakes and are more yellow in color.
My concern at this point is: what is the original cause of this stuff? It's a lot of work to do all of the chlorinating, draining, cleaning, etc. But, what is to prevent it from coming back again in the future? If it doesn't come back again, then it seems to me that it must be a predisposed problem that arrived with the spa when it was new. Comments?
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One more thought. What about all of the lines that are part of the blower system? Water enters those lines from the spa and just sits in there until the blower is activated and pushes the water out. Nothing ever circulates in all of those lines like it does in the rest of the water lines. Seems like a perfect breeding place to me. I didn't understand what a blower system was all about when I bought my Sundance a year ago. I would NEVER own a spa with a blower system again.
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The blower line in a Sundance spa circulates every day at 12:00 noon for two minutes, just for that reason. Pump no. 2 does the same thing. These saftey functions cannot be over ridden.
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The blower line in a Sundance spa circulates every day at 12:00 noon for two minutes, just for that reason. Pump no. 2 does the same thing. These saftey functions cannot be over ridden.
Most well built spas do a daily flush. Everyone that I have sold does so: Beachcomber, D-1, Coleman.
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A very interesting thread, as I am having (I believe) similar problems. Although this poster describes his flakes as being like paper. Mine look more like pieces of skin of varying sizes. I gather a bunch of them in the filter well with a small aquarium fish net and they gather into a somewhat slimey mass that can be easily squished with my fingers. I have also seen dried out flakes that are of a more brittle nature. They gather on the bottom near the pump intakes and are more yellow in color.
My concern at this point is: what is the original cause of this stuff? It's a lot of work to do all of the chlorinating, draining, cleaning, etc. But, what is to prevent it from coming back again in the future? If it doesn't come back again, then it seems to me that it must be a predisposed problem that arrived with the spa when it was new. Comments?
Yes, it sounds like the same thing. It is caused by low sanitation with heavy bather load. If you want to get it out you will have to do the same chemical flush.
Yes it is a little harder to get out with a blower system but as mentioned most higher end companies have a programmed cycle to help issues like this stay at a minimum. One benefit to a blower system is the ability to oxygenate the water.
I personally have never been a huge fan of blowers, they're a bit volatile for me and I don't particularly like the feel but many customers I've had over the years love it! Having a blower hooked up to do a turbo boost through the jets can give you a pretty incredible massage!
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My point seems to have been missed. I am aware that my blower lines and my pump #2 lines are cleared each day for two minutes. (Actually, if you consult the manual, this only happens for ONE minute.) My concern is that the water in those lines is stagnant for the remaining 23 hours and 59 minutes of the day. I think it's a poor design element. I use my spa daily, but 99% of the time I like to soak peacefully under the stars, not listen to jets roaring in my ears. So, on most days, those lines only receive their one minute of activation.
My first spa was a D1. It had one main pump and one circulation pump, and no blower. I kept the diverter valve centered and the water in ALL of the lines got filtered and circulated for way more than one minute each day. A much better design, in my opinion.
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Point not missed my friend, 23 hours is not eneough time to allow this condition in your tub. It is more likely the source is in a plumbing line that is inactive (jet/diverter turned off) or low sanitization in combination with heavy bather load as Stuart suggested.
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I respectuflly disagree that the one minute blow out is inadequate. We've owned our spa for almost 2 years, and have yet to have a problem related to sanitation.
So the water in the blower lines doesn't move for up to 23 hours, if the water is sanitized correctly, so what?
Brewman
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I respectuflly disagree Brewman
Was that directed at Bluewater or me? I think you and I are in agreement here by barely loving friend.
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I respectuflly disagree that the one minute blow out is inadequate. We've owned our spa for almost 2 years, and have yet to have a problem related to sanitation.
So the water in the blower lines doesn't move for up to 23 hours, if the water is sanitized correctly, so what?
Brewman
Brewman,
It's great that you have never had a problem however; it only takes one time with white water mold or pseudomonas to change your thinking about the blower system. Obviously you do a great job of sanitation and have been good about not letting it go to far or get low at heavy use times. Hopefully that great luck will continue.
As I have said many, many times - please think a minuet about who those of us that live and work this industry are. Your experience is with your spa, people like HTM and myself have experience with hundreds or even thousands of spas! This doesn't make us smarter (although I HAVE to be smarter then Jeff! ;)) it simply giveS us a different perspective based off of more input...
Maybe a few minuets a day IS fine for your spa but as a whole I don't believe it is fine for everyone from what I have experienced over the years. We strive for the maximum amount of turnover for water through filter for sanitation reasons and then recontaminate that water with water that has been stagnating for 23 hours instead of filtering. Would you be comfortable with your spa filtering only about 45 minuets a day?
(I hope that didn't come across defensive or harsh it isn't meant that way :D)
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Was that directed at Bluewater or me? I think you and I are in agreement here by barely loving friend.
I was attempting to counter the statement that a one minute blow out was a design flaw.
Brewman
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(I hope that didn't come across defensive or harsh it isn't meant that way :D)
It didn't. You have to have a thick skin to survive on most bb's. I don't take anything on this or any other board personally. You do a better job than many on being diplomatic.
No harm no foul.
Brewman
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do a better job than many on being diplomatic.
Brewman
Wow! Can you email my wife and tell her that? She won't believe it...!
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Sure, I'll email your wife, just post your email address and I'll say anything you want. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Brewman
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The one minute blow out time is all that is needed. In a properly maintained spa, there will be a residual sanitizer in the water. During the one minute period, the water from the air line is blown into the water. When that is over, the sanitized water feeds back into those lines. For that reason, when you get out of the tub, you should put air controls and diverter valves in the middle. Also, water flowwill not prevent biofilm. More than likely, the white flakes you are seeing are a biofilm, not a white mold.
Here is some evidence to support what I just wrote:
http://www.edstrom.com/Resources.cfm?doc_id=146
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Hi guys and gals. It's my first time chiming in, but have been reading for a time now. I noticed this topic on the board for a month now and it sounds like this customer is having it rough with white water mold. Don't feel bad lots of people get it when they are just starting out. It is from a lack of sanitation on a regular basis. We have a recipe and process for this problem that seems to work well. I will admit I read some of the posts but not all. So if I repeat something or if you are already at a stage just skip ahead.
1) Siberian add 4oz. sodium dichlor
or raise the ppm of chlorine to at least 10.
2) Monitor the chlorine levels every day and add chlorine like the neighbors are paying for it. run jets each time.
3) We are looking to hold a chlorine residual of 3-4 ppm. for 48-72 hrs.
4) When we have achieved this mark now we can drain and refill.
5) Pull filters rinse thoroughly. (not just a 2 min rinse, I'm talking get in there.
6) Refill and hit it hard with 2 oz. dichlor. run jets 20 mins
7) At this point make an executive decision on weather or not to use same filters.
8) Now you have to use dichlor after each use.at least 1/2- 1 oz. gotta do it.
Hope this helps write back if questions. will check soon.
There I said it.
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Hi Big_D, I have to respectfully disagree with what you are suggesting. Getting the chlorine levl to 10ppm is not going to kill the bacteria. The chlorine level needs to be raised past 50ppm to break past the protective layer that the bacteria has built.
And could someone please get me a link for some infromation on "white water mold?" Are we both talking about biofilm? Or is the mold something different?
Thanks
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Dear Mr. Strike whether we call it white water mold or biofilm, we all have seen this in peoples spas. I may have not been clear in my recipe that we are adding chlorine (sodium di- chlor ) as we go, to kill the biofilm. The chlorine level needs to stay elevated at a safe level. We can then determine when we are gaining ground on the biofilm, rather than guessing to see after 5 drains and refills if we need to drain and refill again. As the water is able to hold a residual chlorine level we can then decide when to drain and refill. For example if the biofilm has just started in a spa do I really need to add 3 gallons of bleach? If we add 1 oz. of dichlor to a spa that has biofilm, in two hours the spa would have no residual. If we did the same to a spa without biofilm and has fresh municipal water we would have residual. My method will help assure death to the biofilm, and save the spa owner lots of drain and refill time, which can be spent soaking. FYI sodium hypochlorite (bleach) is not a recommended sanitizer for spas and may void warranty on a spa. HSS/TR included. Thank you for respectfully disagreeing, hope you receive this as a different form of white water mold removal, respectfully.