Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: kat on December 12, 2004, 01:56:56 pm
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Hi!
Thanks to all of the good topics, we were able to buy a spa (Sundance) and take care of it! This is great reading!
OK - here is the problem. We use N2. Ever since we started to used the Enhanced Shock - with diclor - my husband is breaking out after each use. This morning he had tiny bumps - that itch - all over his body. We are convinced that this has begun with the introduction of the Enhanced Shock. But we also knowthat this is necessary to keep the spa clean.
Anyone ever had similar experiences? Anyone have any suggestions regarding alternatives?
Thanks in advance!
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I doubt it is the shock, what is your PH? Has he gone to the Dr.? Couuld be psuedemonis, don't mess around with it. He may not be up for the test but you could put some in the Bath Tub and let him try that to see if he gets the same results.
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Thanks for replying!
The PH is OK and the bumps only happen after we have been in the spa. This is such a bummer!
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How quickly do they go away? Are they mostly concentrated towards the chest and neck area? My point with that is are the bumps more concentrated towards where he contacts the surface of the water the longest?
Enhanced shock does contain a bit of a clarifier that he would possibly be reacting to although it is rare....
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The bumps occur within hours of getting out of the spa. They have gotten progressively worse. Initially, they were on his back and upper arms. On Sunday - they were all over. They itch and it takes about 2 days for them to go away.
Thanks again!
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Well if they go away that fast he might very well be having a reaction to the Enhanced shock. I will do some research tomorrow with Biogaurd and see what they can tell me.
I would still treat it like a bacteria issue though and do a chemical clean, here’s one way;
1. Add 4 oz of chlorine, run the pumps on high for about an hour WITH THE LID OPEN! (you could damage your cover otherwise and letting the spa breath is good)
2. Leave the spa over night then add a bottle of over the counter h2o2 (hydrogen peroxide) and run the pumps again for about an hour (this will help neutralize the chlorine).
3. Drain the spa COMPLETELY and clean your filters.
4. wipe down your cover and all surfaces not under water with a solution of water and Clorox mixed 3 to 1.
5. Refill the spa and wait for it to get to temp, balance it, add about 2 oz of Chlorine and then use it without the enhanced shock for the time being.....
If you don't treat it like a bacteria issue you might overlook something important. It's a little extra work but a necessary evil IMO.
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Thanks for the advice. We will be doing this ASAP!
What is BioGuard? Is it a "system" like Natures 2??
Also, after reading the post on N2 - I wonder if I'm not putting WAAAY too much Enhanced shock in? I use about 3 tablespoons once a week. Maybe too much????
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Hi Kat:
It sounds like you don't have ENOUGH sanitizer if you are only using 3 tablespoons a week of dichlor ("I use about 3 tablesthingys once a week. Maybe too much?") and that's ALL you do.
N2 is made to be used with MPS (see SpaTime products (http://www.spatimeproducts.com/lowes/shock.shtml#NonChlorShock) available at Lowes for an MPS source) on a DAILY basis. After using and trying to "figure" this out for awhile, here's what I've learned.
For N2 to be 100% effective, you need to use MPS DAILY. The N2 instructions say "add 1 tablespoon of MPS per 250 gallons of water BEFORE each use." N2 also says it's OK to substitute dichlor, but this kind of defeats the purpose. So, even if you DON'T use the spa, you should add the MPS a least once per day. I've noticed when I don't add MPS daily that water chemistry becomes problematic.
As mentioned, N2 says you should add MPS BEFORE each use. I think they say this because they want your use time to ALSO act as release time for the MPS oxidation process, along with oxidizing new contaminates (added while you're using the spa) at the SAME time (killing two bugs at the same time, so to speak). This strategy oxidizes stuff as quickly as possible, reducing stress on the N2 water balancing process.
N2 also recommends dichlor "if the water becomes cloudy." I should note that neither an MPS or dichlor maintenance routine is discussed in the N2 FAQ website except for this:
Q: Do I still need to use chlorine? Why?
A: Yes, you need to use a small amount of residual oxidizer. With the Nature2 system* you can reduce the clorine level to just 0.5ppm. We recommend low levels of free chlorine (0.5 PPM free chlorine minimum). You won't feel, smell or be affected by chlorine at this level.
So, what's the bottom line?
As Stuart suggested, DRAIN and start over. The product you are currently using is PROBABLY an "enhanced shock" with a dichlor base, along with clarifiers, buffers, etc. If it is, try this:
Refill the spa, shock using your current “enhanced shock” product at about 2 tablespoons per 250 gallons (this adds the BASE dichlor level). Run the spa with the cover off, until the smell decreases. Check pH and calcium, balance water.
Put in Nature2. Let the tub sit for 1 day with normal circulation as it comes to heat. Recheck pH and calcium. Balance if necessary. Start using the tub. Before each use, add MPS at 1 tablespoon per 250 gallons. Run the tub like you normally do. "Free Chlorine" will start to gradually decrease on your test strip. Even if you don't use the tub for a SINGLE day, add MPS. If you go SEVERAL days without use, add MPS every OTHER day. DON'T skip MPS, even if not using the tub, adding it at LEAST every 3rd day. If you lose the "routine," start over with the "enhanced shock" procedure. If you have a PLANNED event with more people, use the "enhanced shock" routine BEFORE the event, or at least AFTER, if a bunch of people come over unexpected.
On Saturdays (or another week day), REGULARLY use the "enhanced shock" routine along with cleaning the filters. Cleaning filters is easier when they are less dirty. If you notice ANY foam that can be "scooped up" and doesn’t disappear, use a clarifying agent about one hour AFTER shocking. Generally, if you are on the "program" foam should NOT be an issue.
This routine should result in roughly a .5 ppm free chlorine level on a test strip. It will vary occasionally, going from HIGH to low following shock routines. Chemistry should be good too, because the "enhanced shock" uses a "buffer" for water balance. With tub use, pH naturally goes "low," with "pH UP" (baking soda) added for adjustment. The "enhanced shock" takes care of this, but you still may need to adjust pH on occasion. Calcium should also be checked monthly.
Following this "program" N2 should work VERY well. I've used it for more than a month now with GOOD results, with "heavy" use in a 500 gallon tub. I found, however, that with "heavy use" (I define "heavy" as more than 2 people in the tub at once, at least 2 times per week, in MY case 6 to 8, with a second shift of 6 to 8 kids) a regular dichlor shock routine is a MUST. Without a dichlor shock (just MPS and MPS as a "shock"), as N2 suggests, the water had problems. Using BOTH dichlor and MPS took care of this.
Anyway, this is what worked for me. Hope it helps. Post questions if you have them...
Drewski
8)
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I experimented with the MPS before use (daily) and shock with dichlor weekly and then twice weekly with unsatisfactory results. The water would not stay clear. I have great luck with very little dichlor after use and my shock mixture of 1 tblsp dichlor and 2 tblsp mps.
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I experimented with the MPS before use (daily) and shock with dichlor weekly and then twice weekly with unsatisfactory results. The water would not stay clear. I have great luck with very little dichlor after use and my shock mixture of 1 tblsp dichlor and 2 tblsp mps.
Minus the clarifiers, that's pretty much what Enhanced shock is....
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Minus the clarifiers, that's pretty much what Enhanced shock is....
...with a little ph+
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...with a little ph+
and differant colored containers....
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Actually stuart, I sort of stole the idea from your use of enhanced shock. I just use the products I have in my cabinet. I am finding I can use even less dichlor after use now that I raise my free chlorine level to about 5 ppm once per week.
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Thank you all soooo much. I am printing this so I can re-read it! We will be draining the tub and starting over.
Initially, we didn't even have (or know anything about) Enhanced Shock. It wasn't until we complained at the dealership, and I pointed out what the N2 recommeds, that we got some. Our water was green, etc. Our usage is 2-5 times a week - just the hubby and I.
But, I am following directions from all of you! Once again, I apprecaite the help!!
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Our water was green, etc. Our usage is 2-5 times a week - just the hubby and I.
That statement would lead me back to the pseudomonas issue and I implore you to do the chemical clean before draining!
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I experimented with the MPS before use (daily) and shock with dichlor weekly and then twice weekly with unsatisfactory results. The water would not stay clear. I have great luck with very little dichlor after use and my shock mixture of 1 tblsp dichlor and 2 tblsp mps.
Hi Tony:
I'm curious as to your experience with MPS. I was using that exact routine previously with N2 and by 3 month old water was REALLY needing to adjust chemistry almost DAILY. Now, I'm at 1.5 month old water with virtually no maintenance. I'm still REALLY shy about decreasing dichlor more because of previous BAD experience (including the dreaded "itch" when I first bought the tub). Are you just substituting dichlor for MPS at the rate N2 is saying, or are you using an "enhanced" dichlor product each night? What about the shock regime, is it "enhanced" too? Do you regularly add more pH up, etc?
Sorry for all the questions :-/, but I'm trying to switch to a "minimal" routine following N2 as close as possible...
Thanks...
Drewski
8)
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My routine is identical to Drewski with no problems to date. The water did get a little cloudy just before my scheduled water change.
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Hi Drewski
I'm happy to share my experiences with you. A while ago, I thought that I would like to adjust my routine so that I could get out of the tub and just close the cover. That is exactly what the Nature2 instructions say you can do...add mps before you enter. I would shock with dichlor once per week (to +10ppm). Well around mid week my water would start to go south, so I would add another tblspn dichlor on Wednesday on top of my Saturday shock along with my MPS before use....water would still turn before Saturday. I kept at it for over a month and just gave up and went back to a tsp dichlor after use and two tblspns dichlor weekly to shock.
Then I read a bit about CYA (because of a small pool I installed) and started testing for it and got concerned about the very high levels in the spa. I even tried my weekly shock with liquid chlorine which I used in the pool (after trichlor tabs ran that CYA up). That actually worked well...it did not really raise my pH, but it is just not as easy as dichlor to use especially outside of the summer pool season. That is when I saw stuarts post regarding the Enhanced Shock and it being a mix of dichlor, mps and clarifier.
So now I have been using 1 tablespn dichlor and 2 tablespns mps as a shock with great results. This past week, I have cut my after use dosage of dichlor from 1 tsp per person to 1/2 tsp per person without any problems yet. The weekly tblspn of dichlor gets my free chlorine level to about 5ppm which I think is important to do, but it is not so high that I have to wait a day to use the spa, which I hated with a strictly dichlor shock. I don't generally have to adjust my water...it stays pretty much in balance. Also my CYA levels stay in an acceptable range and tds doesn't seem to be a problem.
Let me add that during these colder months, I am a daily user but the rest of my family are more fair weather tubbers. There are times in the summer when I could have 8 -10 fifteen year olds squeezed in the spa at once, so that takes a little extra care. I filter 30 minutes four times a day plus my circ pump filters 24/7 and I change my water every four months. Along with the Nature2 cartridge, I have a CD ozonator.
Hopefully I have answered your questions. Sorry for the long post.
tony
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Hey Kat if you go back and read "I just can't Belive it" by Ellie Nov. 29th she had the same Problem. In fact i just came up with the same problem Myself also just after I cleaned and refilled my tub Thanksgiving week. I have had my spa since June and everything was fine until then. So looks like I need to follow Chas's advice and superchlorinate and clean out my tube next nice day I get.
Since I have been out of the tub the past 3 days, the rash has gotten better. I went to my Dr last week and he said the same as Ellies but mine was not as bad so i just need to clean out the tub. Hope this helps good luck. :)