Hot Tub Forum

Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: mhraracing on December 06, 2004, 08:58:35 pm

Title: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: mhraracing on December 06, 2004, 08:58:35 pm
While I am sitting here tonight in CT on the computer - wishing I had my new spa - there is a pretty nasty mixture of freezing rain and snow coming down - I started thinking.........If the power were to go out in the middle of the winter......How long do you think we would have before we have to worry about freeze damage to our spas ?

For the people that have spas in Northern Climates - what do you do if the power is going to be out for an extended period of time ?

Just wondering - or am I being too paranoid ?
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Chas on December 06, 2004, 09:29:02 pm
You could leave a HotSpring spa outside, with no power for a month in sub-zero temps day and night and it wouldn't freeze at all.





Not at all !!










Unless it had water in it....





;)
Title: Better answer
Post by: Chas on December 06, 2004, 09:31:10 pm
Most spas will be fine for a day or so - during that time you will have other things to worry about.

If the power goes off and you have a generator - run and extension cord and a work light to the motor compartment. Toss some extra blankets over it, finish up with a heavy tarp and




Wait a minute !! I live in paradise !! Why am I answering this question?

Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: moshspa on December 06, 2004, 09:53:47 pm
You live in paradise?   Funny, I thought you lived in California. ;)
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: stuart on December 06, 2004, 09:57:20 pm
If you own a spa do yourself a favor and get a drop light of some kind. If you lose power to the spa you can always put the light in the cabinet to keep the pipes from freezing even if you have to plug it into a generator.
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: poolboy34 on December 06, 2004, 10:03:46 pm
With the insulation methods used in spas today you needn't worry.  Most spas will be fine for 7 days in the event of a power failure during the winter.  But in the event of a prolonged power outage (greater then 7 days) following the advice stuart gave will help prevent any potential damage.

Jason,
Store manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Vinny on December 06, 2004, 10:09:05 pm
OK the spa was a semi easy sell to my wife but a generator, I don't know.

I can't see my wife buying the story: " Really Honey, I know we didn't budget for it but if power goes out the tub won't freeze". Me thinks my dog would be sleeping in my bed!

Of coarse if you have some 150 watt bulbs that don't require electricity to run ...
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Chas on December 06, 2004, 10:26:06 pm
Quote
OK the spa was a semi easy sell to my wife but a generator, I don't know.

I can't see my wife buying the story: " Really Honey, I know we didn't budget for it but if power goes out the tub won't freeze". Me thinks my dog would be sleeping in my bed!

Of coarse if you have some 150 watt bulbs that don't require electricity to run ...

Sounds to me like you've got everything you need -
(http://www.jogadog.com/images/dog_treadmill_dc6_a.gif)
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Brewman on December 06, 2004, 10:33:37 pm
Quote

If the power were to go out in the middle of the winter......How long do you think we would have before we have to worry about freeze damage to our spas ?

For the people that have spas in Northern Climates - what do you do if the power is going to be out for an extended period of time ?

Just wondering - or am I being too paranoid ?


I've lived in the snowbelt most of my life (born in Santa Monica- go figure), and cannot recall one time where the winter power ever went out for more than a few seconds.  So I'm not worrying.
Brewman
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Vinny on December 06, 2004, 10:41:43 pm
Chas,

I like it!

My dog likes to chase things so heck I can power the tub if I just put a mechanical rabbit in front!
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Steve on December 06, 2004, 10:55:17 pm
I'm with poolboy. Most quality spas will give you a 5-7 day window. After that, you've got far more bigger concerns than your tub!

I always suggest to have a space heater or trouble light available in the event of an issue with just the spa itself in harsh climates. Either one of those can prevent the equipment area from freezing in extended outages.

My only other suggestion would be to buy an Arctic. They will last for up to 4 years with no power at -80C and maintain 100+ degrees. ;) I think I read that in their brochure... ;D

Steve
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Brewman on December 06, 2004, 10:59:23 pm
You can also have people jump up and down on the spa cover to while away the hours waiting for the power to come back on.
Brewman
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: stuart on December 06, 2004, 11:18:52 pm
Tough crowd!
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Mendocino101 on December 07, 2004, 02:48:45 am
Steve....I am confused I thought the Artic spas were used as a heat source for small towns in the case of a power failure....did you not also read that in their brochure along with it using the space shuttle heat shield to recover heat as reenters earths atmosphere that will help it  remain hot with the cover off...or was it that their cover is used as the heat shield its self....
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Tman122 on December 07, 2004, 06:22:50 am
Here in Northern Minnesota in the dead of winter we have never had a power outage for more than a few minutes. In the spring and fall we have had longer ones but not in the dead of winter. If we do have a power outage at sub zero temps we worry about staying alive not our tubs!
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Brewman on December 07, 2004, 07:35:37 am
Quote
Steve....I am confused I thought the Artic spas were used as a heat source for small towns in the case of a power failure....did you not also read that in their brochure along with it using the space shuttle heat shield to recover heat as reenters earths atmosphere that will help it  remain hot with the cover off...or was it that their cover is used as the heat shield its self....


That's nuthin.  Cavein spas are so energy efficient that they actually feed excess electricity back to the power grid.  The tubs actually pay for themselves over time.
Brewman
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: wmccall on December 07, 2004, 07:49:49 am
Quote
With the insulation methods used in spas today you needn't worry.  Most spas will be fine for 7 days in the event of a power failure during the winter.  But in the event of a prolonged power outage (greater then 7 days) following the advice stuart gave will help prevent any potential damage.

Jason,
Store manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer



As an example, I was having to turn my spa off at night for a few days.  The weather was in the 40s.  At 11pm at would be 102.   At 7am is was 99 when I turned the power back on.
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: stuart on December 07, 2004, 12:01:53 pm
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Steve....I am confused I thought the Artic spas were used as a heat source for small towns in the case of a power failure....did you not also read that in their brochure along with it using the space shuttle heat shield to recover heat as reenters earths atmosphere that will help it  remain hot with the cover off...or was it that their cover is used as the heat shield its self....

They're actually looking at the possibility of building a small town on an Arctic cover!
Quote

Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Elle on December 07, 2004, 04:46:02 pm
Quote


As an example, I was having to turn my spa off at night for a few days.  The weather was in the 40s.  At 11pm at would be 102.   At 7am is was 99 when I turned the power back on.



I was just telling my husband how well our spa is insulated after I did my last fill.  I first did a superchlorination which required me to run my spa for over 2 hours with the cover off.  The first thing I did was turn the temp down to 80 so the heater wouldn't run.  The spa started at 101 degrees.  The outside temp was 36.  Remember no cover with jets running full power.  At the end of the 2.5 hrs the spa temp was 98.  That's insulation.

Elle
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Mendocino101 on December 07, 2004, 04:48:01 pm
Quote


I was just telling my husband how well our spa is insulated after I did my last fill.  I first did a superchlorination which required me to run my spa for over 2 hours with the cover off.  The first thing I did was turn the temp down to 80 so the heater wouldn't run.  The spa started at 101 degrees.  The outside temp was 36.  Remember no cover with jets running full power.  At the end of the 2.5 hrs the spa temp was 98.  That's insulation.

Elle

lol..no that's a Marquis..... ;)
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Elle on December 07, 2004, 06:15:44 pm
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lol..no that's a Marquis..... ;)



TRUE....very true....TRUE....very true  
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: TimC on December 07, 2004, 06:59:24 pm
Hi Everyone

Why would you need the light in the motor compartment?  Wouldn't it stay warm from the tub?

I have a HS Vanguard.  Does the Circ. pump keep the motor compartment warm during winter and when the power goes out the motor compartment lose it heat source?

Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: stuart on December 07, 2004, 09:02:52 pm
Quote
Hi Everyone

Why would you need the light in the motor compartment?  Wouldn't it stay warm from the tub?

I have a HS Vanguard.  Does the Circ. pump keep the motor compartment warm during winter and when the power goes out the motor compartment lose it heat source?


If you lose power in the tub a light will help keep the equipment warm until you can find the problem.
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: stingfan on December 10, 2004, 03:26:55 pm
I've seen questions like this before and just wanted to put in my 2cents.  This is not a totally ridiculous question and some hot tub owners are not being paranoid.  We have power outages where I live that sometimes last hours.  Once, several years ago, we have a severe ice storm and my power was out for 3 days.  I have had the same question as others, how long until I have to add some warmth to the pump compartment?  I think someone earlier in this thread answered that question for me.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Chas on December 10, 2004, 04:17:56 pm
Yes, you are very right. I tease a bit because it's not a problem here in CA, but the answers above are correct:
Most tubs will go many days without a problem.
If you have an extreme situation, you may already have a generator on hand, or you may have to get one for other reasons - like survival...

In that case, simply putting a work light on a power cord, postioning that light in the motor compartment, and perhaps some blankets/tarps over the whole tub to keep that heat in the tub better can allow you to not worry about the tub, and have time to worry about all the other things that you have to worry about in an ice storm.

I have read on other boards about folks who have power  outages often enough that they got a generator. But they turn the heat off in the tub (too much load for the genny) and simply run the circ pump or low-speed pump to be sure the water stays in motion. This can be wired into your  house so that it automatically allows power to the pump but cuts power to the heat when the genny comes on - at least on a HotSpring it can. Other tubs you may have to simply go turn the temp all the way down, or somesuch. With this arrangement, you can go quite a while. The tub cools, of course, but generally will not freeze.

Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: wetone on December 10, 2004, 05:22:30 pm
We have serviced tubs that have had no power for 46 hours at -14C ??F here in the great white north, Ontario.
Water temp was 102F (per customer) when the spa quit, the water was 80F when the tech got it back up and running. That's about 2 day's.
I don't think another day would have caused it to freeze.
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Brewman on December 10, 2004, 06:14:26 pm
I don't know a whole lot about thermodynamics, but is it true that the heat loss from the water would slow down as the water cooled?  Seems to me that heat transfer rate is higher when the temperature differential is greater, at least I think that's what they tried to learn us in school.  But I was in school a long time ago, so just wondering.
Brewman
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Chas on December 10, 2004, 06:28:03 pm
Quote
I don't know a whole lot about thermodynamics, but is it true that the heat loss from the water would slow down as the water cooled?  Seems to me that heat transfer rate is higher when the temperature differential is greater, at least I think that's what they tried to learn us in school.  But I was in school a long time ago, so just wondering.
Brewman

Yes - very much so. The last few degrees - and then the 'phase change' from liquid to ice takes quite a bit.
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: stuart on December 10, 2004, 08:14:25 pm
Quote
We have serviced tubs that have had no power for 46 hours at -14C ??F here in the great white north, Ontario.
Water temp was 102F (per customer) when the spa quit, the water was 80F when the tech got it back up and running. That's about 2 day's.
I don't think another day would have caused it to freeze.


Wouldn’t that confuse the heater if the topside is reading in Fahrenheit and the outside temp is being measured in Celsius?

Quote
I don't know a whole lot about thermodynamics, but is it true that the heat loss from the water would slow down as the water cooled?  Seems to me that heat transfer rate is higher when the temperature differential is greater, at least I think that's what they tried to learn us in school.  But I was in school a long time ago, so just wondering.
Brewman


Water responds to heating with the greatest increase in warmth at precisely 37 degrees C, or 98.6 degrees F.

“Water reaches its greatest density at 4 degrees C. When cooled below that point it begins to expand again, so that the solid form is less dense than the liquid. By this principal ice forms on the top of lakes and ponds, thereby insulating the water below from further cooling. This wonderful property is essential for preserving life through the natural seasons of the year.”
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: HotTubMan on December 11, 2004, 10:55:53 am
Quote

Wouldn’t that confuse the heater if the topside is reading in Fahrenheit and the outside temp is being measured in Celsius?


You are right Stuart, this the main reason why a tub in Canada is less likely to freeze. The tub isn't quite sure what temperature is correct.......unless its a D-1 displaying in Celcius. ::)
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: zzaphod42 on December 11, 2004, 11:28:27 am
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You are right Stuart, this the main reason why a tub in Canada is less likely to freeze. The tub isn't quite sure what temperature is correct.......unless its a D-1 displaying in Celcius. ::)

That is one feature, that I wish we had. I am a Celcius guy through and through...except when discussing hot tubs! I highly doubt many of my customers would share my opinion though. Most are dedicated Fahrenheit fans.

Maybe we should all just agree to use Kelvin ??? On the plus side we would never have to put in a degree symbol anymore. :)
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: wetone on December 11, 2004, 11:47:47 am
Quote

Wouldn’t that confuse the heater if the topside is reading in Fahrenheit and the outside temp is being measured in Celsius?




Yip... you guessed it, that one particular brand had a lot of issues with confused heaters when it got cold ::);D. Could not set the topside to Celsius, only displayed Fahrenheit.
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: HotTubMan on December 11, 2004, 12:23:33 pm
Quote
That is one feature, that I wish we had. I am a Celcius guy through and through...except when discussing hot tubs! I highly doubt many of my customers would share my opinion though. Most are dedicated Fahrenheit fans.

Maybe we should all just agree to use Kelvin ??? On the plus side we would never have to put in a degree symbol anymore. :)


Joe;

You can get a chip from Balboa if you want yours to read in Celcius. We got one for a 350, cost $50 USD

HTM
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: stuart on December 11, 2004, 01:24:29 pm
Quote
That is one feature, that I wish we had. I am a Celcius guy through and through...except when discussing hot tubs! I highly doubt many of my customers would share my opinion though. Most are dedicated Fahrenheit fans.

Maybe we should all just agree to use Kelvin ??? On the plus side we would never have to put in a degree symbol anymore. :)

I you need the Kelvin scale to measure the temp in your spa, it must get REALLY cold where you live..... ??? ;D
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Spatech_tuo on December 11, 2004, 04:04:32 pm
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I you need the Kelvin scale to measure the temp in your spa, it must get REALLY cold where you live..... ??? ;D


I set my tub to 560 Rankin.
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: zzaphod42 on December 11, 2004, 04:15:53 pm
Quote

Joe;

You can get a chip from Balboa if you want yours to read in Celcius. We got one for a 350, cost $50 USD

HTM
I had heard that there was something available. To date, I have not had anyone ask for it, and I simply couldn't justify buying it for myself.

Now if Keith wanted to make it standard on the tubs without charging us any more for them, I wouldn't complain.
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: Chas on December 11, 2004, 04:38:16 pm
HotSpring and Tiger River tubs can be set up to read C or F Just change a jumper on the main board.
Title: Re: Power outage and freeze questions ??
Post by: stuart on December 11, 2004, 07:01:58 pm
Quote

I set my tub to 560 Rankin.

Because you do science experiments with it an need more reference points right? ;)