Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: pantherkat on November 22, 2004, 10:29:58 pm
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Hi, I am new to the forum and new to the idea of a spa. We just returned from a home show and compared Hot Springs and Caldera. Knowing they are the same manufacturer, we were hoping to find honest answers about the differences between the two. Of course each dealer tooted his own horn, and downplayed the spas they were not selling
Has anyone compared these two spas ? Quality? Maintenance ? Performance ? Comfort? We are leaning specifically towards the HS Envoy or the Caldera Geneva Utopia.... and the big question - is it worth the BIG $$$$ ?
Thank you in advance for any advice :-/
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They are not made by the same companies. Caldera spas are made in the Caldera plant, HS, Tiger River, Solana are made in the Watkins MFG plant in Vista.
There are many differences.
Shell - HS is thermoplastic, Calder is laminated fiberglass/acrylic
Jets - HS has small, medium, large and extra large, plus a couple of pattented jets: Moto Massage and Soothing Seven.
Caldera has a single filter and bypass. HS has mutliple filters and no bypass.
HS has no blowers available.
Control systems are the same, but Caldera has a couple of extra functions dealing with the blower and so forth.
Colors are dfferent
Siding is different.
Seating is very different - a wet test is a must.
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They are not made by the same companies. Caldera spas are made in the Caldera plant, HS, Tiger River, Solana are made in the Watkins MFG plant in Vista.
Chas, Where is the Caldera plant?
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Chas..........the "caldera" plant is the WATKINS plant, the same place where Hot Spring, tiger river, etc are made.......they are just made in a seperate section of the watkins plant.
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Isn't the only thermoplastic shell that hot springs offers the endurol???? B/c I'm pretty sure the other colored shells are acrylic/fiberglass lamanent.
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Isn't the only thermoplastic shell that hot springs offers the endurol???? B/c I'm pretty sure the other colored shells are acrylic/fiberglass lamanent.
No. HotSpring does not offer a laminated fiberglass shell. They use Quarite Plus, which is Acrylic backed by ABS plastic. It is cast in two layers, which means it can't come apart. It arrives at the plant as a single, thick sheet of thermoplastic. The Endurol is also backed with ABS, and also arrives at the plant as a single thick sheet.
Here's a clip from the web site:
Elegant pearlescent and metalescent shells provide a smooth look and feel, while vibrant granite-like shells offer a textured choice. An acrylic surface layer is co-laminated to an impact resistant ABS substrate, fused together in a controlled, automated process.
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Chas..........the "caldera" plant is the WATKINS plant, the same place where Hot Spring, tiger river, etc are made.......they are just made in a seperate section of the watkins plant.
Well - I will have to admit that I'm not 100 % sure about this one. I have toured the factory many times, and the last time I did so there was a section in which they were finishing off Caldera spas. But it was my understanding that they molded them, 'glassed them, plumbed them and built the cabinets at the Caldera plant. Then they were transported to the Watkins plant for completion. So sorry, I don't know where the Caldera plant is - I'm not a Caldera Dealer, and there is no address on the web site. It is entirely possible that they have moved all of the manufacturing to the Watkins plant by now - but they are still two very different tubs, built by two completely different teams of people, and most decidedly sold by two different networks of dealers.
The finishing does happen at the Watkins plant, and that included the control system and pumps - I would assume the water test also takes place at the Watkins plant, and I do know without a doubt that they are all shipped from that plant.
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When I toured the plant this past february they were building the caldera tubs right there, everything from the frames, plumbing, insulation, etc..... The only things that weren't made at the Vista Plant were the shells and cabinetry panels which are made in the plant in Mexico, which I believe is also the case for all of Watkins other spa lines as well. I don't know how it is on the left coast but out here It's not uncommon for the Hot Spring Dealers to also carry caldera Spas as well. Yes, I agree that both brands are distinct from one another, but they have a lot more similarities then differences. This becomes more evident when you see the entire manufacturing process, and have seen the spas made from start to finish.
Jason,
Store Manager for D-1 & Caldera Dealer.
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When I toured the plant this past february they were building the caldera tubs right there, everything from the frames, plumbing, insulation, etc..... The only things that weren't made at the Vista Plant were the shells and cabinetry panels which are made in the plant in Mexico, which I believe is also the case for all of Watkins other spa lines as well.
No, the HotSpring Tiger River and Solana tubs go from flat sheets to finished spas right in the Vista plant. Only the covers are made in Mexico. Tell me: did you get to tour the entire HotSpring production line? I ask this because I did NOT get to tour the Caldera area. In fact the more I tried to poke into it the more I got the feeling I was not welcome. I am going to tour the plant again in Jan, I'll see if things have changed. By the way, I sure wouldn't rule out any of the things you mentioned: Watkins is not afraid to change things. But as of six months ago the HotSpring lines never left Vista until they were shipped to a dealer. I saw Caldera spas going into the Caldera area partially completed, and then coming out another door to be stacked alongside HotSpring finished tubs ready to ship. I don't know how it is on the left coast but out here It's not uncommon for the Hot Spring Dealers to also carry caldera Spas as well.
Well, that's an interesting point, and not real comfortable to discuss for most HotSpring or Caldera dealers, I'm afraid.
Yes, I agree that both brands are distinct from one another, but they have a lot more similarities then differences. This becomes more evident when you see the entire manufacturing process, and have seen the spas made from start to finish.
I'm sure that as time goes by, the processes will become more and more alike. But as a long-time HotSpring dealer, I can point out more differences than similarities. BUT - I can also point out several new features which have shown up on the HotSpring spas since Caldera came on the scene. This makes a lot of sense to me.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but Caldera, when Watkins purchased the brand was not an ISO9001 certified spa, but Hotspring was certified. Now Caldera is certified. It is the manufacturing facility that receives the certification not the spa. With that statement, it is my understanding that Caldera is built in the Watkins plant in Vista unless they got that other plant certified.
Off topic, but if you are wondering if ISO9001 is a big deal, I was going to Philadelphia from New Jersey, and I passed a manufacturing facility on the highway that was advertising how they just got ISO9001 certified.
The facility was in Camden, which was just rated the most dangerous city in American. I got a chuckle out of the sign and where the facility was located.
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The shells for the cladera's are vacuum molded in the mexico plant and shipped to the vista plant where they are framed, plumbed, insulated, etc.... So in that respect what you said is true. Chris H makes a great point about the ISO certification of Caldera now that they are owned and operated by Watkins. And yes, I too was shunned from the "other" side of the watkins plant (Hot Spring, Tiger River), although I did get a chance to see the finished products prior to them being wrapped. You are right, Watkins is very guarded when it comes to showing it's various dealers the products they offer...i.e. Not allowing hot spring dealers to see the Caldera side of the plant and vice versa. It's my understanding that Watkins is treating Caldera as an entirely seperate product line from their other lines. Reguardless of all of this, BOTH products are top notch.
Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer
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I don't know how it is on the left coast but out here It's not uncommon for the Hot Spring Dealers to also carry caldera Spas as well.
A dealer here in Cincinnati sells Hot Springs, Cladera, and Cal Spas...go figure.
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Off topic, but if you are wondering if ISO9001 is a big deal, I was going to Philadelphia from New Jersey, and I passed a manufacturing facility on the highway that was advertising how they just got ISO9001 certified.
In a past life I was an ISO 9001 internal auditor. If the caldera tubs are molded elsewhere and then assembled at Vista they can still be certified, but there are special inspections on the "subcontractor" doing the molding.
As for the benefit of ISO9001, some people build crud with it, and some people build terrific products w/o it.
It does guarantee that many key manufacturing trouble spots have had some thought applied to them, and that regular training occurs, equipment stays calibrated, etc...
Last I checked, though, ISO doesn't rate the quality of the process, just that there is a process and that the process is communicated and followed.
-Ed
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Hi, I am new to the forum and new to the idea of a spa. We just returned from a home show and compared Hot Springs and Caldera. Knowing they are the same manufacturer, we were hoping to find honest answers about the differences between the two. Of course each dealer tooted his own horn, and downplayed the spas they were not selling
Has anyone compared these two spas ? Quality? Maintenance ? Performance ? Comfort? We are leaning specifically towards the HS Envoy or the Caldera Geneva Utopia.... and the big question - is it worth the BIG $$$$ ?
Thank you in advance for any advice :-/
Both are very good spas but are certainly separate entities. Wet test both and let that be your guide as to which suits you best.
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Both are very good spas but are certainly separate entities. Wet test both and let that be your guide as to which suits you best.
This is the best statement in this thread.
Wish I'd said it....
;)
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Hi, I am new to the forum and new to the idea of a spa. We just returned from a home show and compared Hot Springs and Caldera. Knowing they are the same manufacturer, we were hoping to find honest answers about the differences between the two. Of course each dealer tooted his own horn, and downplayed the spas they were not selling
Has anyone compared these two spas ? Quality? Maintenance ? Performance ? Comfort? We are leaning specifically towards the HS Envoy or the Caldera Geneva Utopia.... and the big question - is it worth the BIG $$$$ ?
Thank you in advance for any advice :-/
pantherkat - We just ordered a Caldera Geneva Utopia - from a dealer that carried 3 of the Watkins brands - HotSprings/Caldera/Tiger River and can attest that wet testing is a must.
On the Hot Springs tubs we Tested - Vista and Envoy - We really liked the Moto Massage but the Soothing 7 jets didnt do anything special for us. The design was really nice but in the Envoy I was a little cramped in the shoulder area, but Im 6'3" and have broad shoulders. With the pumps 'juiced' up - it kinda pushes you out of your seat without anything to put your feet against.
On the Tiger River - we tested the Siberian model - I really didnt care for the 'egg' shaped seats - as I am a big guy - I really didnt fit right in the seats...so we didnt spend too much time in this tub. - But liked the foot dome with Jets. Also didnt like the "love seat" - can only sit in it if you are a couple.
On the Caldera tubs - Geneva and Tahitian - We REALLY liked the Ecsta Seat with the Neck Message on the Geneva. Also the 4 foot jets on the lounger were nice. I fit really well in the Geneva - but my shoulders kinda stuck out of the Tahitian. The two main things that sold us on the Caldera line was the Foot Ridge and the Air Jet system. I know many people will probably disagree with me - but I really liked those options.
As you can see I am not an expert or a dealer - I would highly suggest you wet test all models to see what you like the best. One word of advice....We chose to stay away from dealers that spoke negatively about competitors products - especially same Watkins brands.
Make sure you do plenty of research and these great people on this site are really helpfull......remember - Sitting in the Tubs DRY is NOT the same as sitting in them WET !!!!!!!
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:) Wow,great information, thanks so much for the details. We wet tested the Geneva and Tahitian tonight, the Niagara and the HS Envoy are next. So true, sitting in the tub dry is totally different. Wet test is the way to go!
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I use my HS Envoy with the diverters in the 6 o'clock position. This give power to all jets without pushing you out of the seats.
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Hello from cold Wisconsin- We just made the leap today and purchased the Caldera Niagra after having wet tested numerous tubs including the hotsprings and sundance brands, as well as master spa and Vita.
What sold us was the wet test the Caldera far exceeded everything else we tried so we ponied up the extra cash and feel it will be well spent.
Just so you know I tried my best to get the price reduced but the dealers dont budge much on the Caldera brand.
Todd
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Congrats on your new purchase ladwig.....Hope you enjoy it !!
We are anxiously awaiting our new Geneva.....should be here next week.... :-/
What sold you on caldera brand ?
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Congrats -
May you soak long and prosper.
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Hello from cold Wisconsin- We just made the leap today and purchased the Caldera Niagra after having wet tested numerous tubs including the hotsprings and sundance brands, Das well as master spa and Vita.
What sold us was the wet test the Caldera far exceeded everything else we tried so we ponied up the extra cash and feel it will be well spent.
Just so you know I tried my best to get the price reduced but the dealers dont budge much on the Caldera brand.
Todd
Congratulations on your new Niagara - we ended up buying the exact same one - wet test sold us and helped us dig a bit deeper into our pockets too. Happy bubbles to you! ;)
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I tried both and liked both quite well. It is a tough choice and should be made subjectively on the basis of wet test. I our case the Caldera was better for us, but I can fully understand why someone else would choose Hot Spring. Somewhere in the archive you probably can find my analysis of the Envoy versus the Geneva Utopia.
I liked the stronger jets of the Caldera better than the Motomessager of the Hot Spring. My wife is 5-feet tall and I am 6-feet, the small ridge on the bottom of every Caldera helped my wife stay anchored better than any other brand. Frankly I find it helps me too. In addition to these two, we also considered Marquis and Jacuzzi Premium, which are also fine products.
The Envoy and Geneva are very similar in many ways and are obviously made by the same company. The fitration systems are quite different, but in the end I decided that this did not matter as both have sparkling clean water when used in accordance with the instructions. Heaters, pumps, and other features also seem to be quite similar. The shell finish in white pearl looks identical and presumably other colors would be very similar too. The warranties are the same.
In truth these two brands are really top notch and you can't go wrong with either. Pick the one that feels best to you, or pick the dealer that seems better for your area. In my area the price was about the same, but if there is a significant difference where you are, that factor should be weighed carefully in making your decision.
Regards,
Bill