Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: jcmsrv on November 14, 2004, 08:22:51 pm
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Hi! we wet tested the coleman model 480 which we liked. The collars kept my wife from floating out of seat. This is the first tub that we wet tested that we both liked, also local dealer, (been around at least 25 yrs.), great price, (6700 with best pkge, cover, lifter, steps, lights, stereo), .....but... it is also the only tub that we feel cramped in. I consider this to be a full size tub, about 8 x 8, but seems that interior is smaller than other tubs. It something that we can live with, but I do not understand why this tub would have less interior space????? any answers???? thanks
john
???
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HI jcmsrv,
Could it be due to the fact that it is a TP design and needs a thicker shell to support the water etc? I found this to be true with the Artic spas I have looked at as well (smaller interior).
Any takers on this one???
Zoo
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Could it be a shallow design?
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Hi Zoo!
We tried the Arctic Tundra and that has a lot of interior room, but at a large price. We price the top of the line tub at about 11,000.00. A little steep! I would think that a TP tub would have more interior space than a Full form???????
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Hi John,
It would help to know which models your comparing it with.
I can think of several reasons you felt it wasn't as roomy. The cooler takes up some room as well as the molded comfort collars on the two seats beside the cooler. The two comfort collar seats are located further into the spa to allow for the extra plumbing to the neck jets.
The size is 92 x 92 but the corners on a Coleman are quite rounded. Some other brands may have been longer one way and not square.
The great thing about the cooler is where it's located. It makes a great table for drinks, towels, snacks, and of course it keeps beverages cold.
The seats in a Coleman are not errect but are slightly reclined, which helps against floating and divides them from the next seat. The curves between the seats take up a small amount of space, but add to the overall comfort of the spa.
The 480 is rated for seven but I would consider it to be a very roomy six person spa..
The price you mentioned is very resonable, especially with the options included. Good Luck!
Spahappy :D
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The shell is thicker.....oh boy!
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good morning to all!
spahappy, we have tried jacuzzi 365, (small, wife floating out of seats), 385, large lot of room didn't want lounger, 375 not in stock, sundance optima, OK, nothing great, one dealer good, another with attitude, Di Naultis, again only OK, pricy with another attitude, Arctic tundra SE, we both loved tub, dealer helpful, but I feel it's over-priced, but I'm am thinking about it.
Wet testing two Artesian tubs this thru. night (piper glen and emerald). I like Artesian thinking on the Piper Glen, pump per seat, and another pump for footwell. This makes a lot of sense to me. We'll see how much room there is in these tubs then
john
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Hey John. While I haven't tested the 480 that we have in the showroom, by appearance I would consider it a very comfortable 6 person tub (as was mentioned above). In the end though, it's your impression that you will have to live with once you own your chosen spa.
I do believe that you'll enjoy testing the Piper Glen. The seating is more open and there's actually a 'cheater' lounge where you can kick your legs up. All in all, much less contoured than the 480. Let us know what you think once you've tested the Artesians.
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Hi Cgar
The only thing about Artesian's that I don't like is the full foam. I have been in the service/repair end of the heating/air conditioning busines for over 30 yrs. I would rather support piping that I can get to than look for leaks that I cannot get to. (I'm not trying to start anything here!!!!!!!!!). I read to many horor stories about full foam leak repairs. I hopping that Artesian's quailty workmenship keep the plumbing leak-tight. The only draw-back to TP is over-heating in mild/warm weather, and I have my own ideas about correcting that. I'll let you know how the wet test goes
john
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Hi Cgar
The only thing about Artesian's that I don't like is the full foam. I have been in the service/repair end of the heating/air conditioning busines for over 30 yrs. I would rather support piping that I can get to than look for leaks that I cannot get to. (I'm not trying to start anything here!!!!!!!!!). I read to many horor stories about full foam leak repairs. I hopping that Artesian's quailty workmenship keep the plumbing leak-tight. The only draw-back to TP is over-heating in mild/warm weather, and I have my own ideas about correcting that. I'll let you know how the wet test goes
john
HotSpring uses full foam, and they come with a five year warranty on the plumbing.
They have removable side panels, and digging through foam is not the nightmare some TP retailers would like you to believe.
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Hi Cgar
The only thing about Artesian's that I don't like is the full foam. I have been in the service/repair end of the heating/air conditioning busines for over 30 yrs. I would rather support piping that I can get to than look for leaks that I cannot get to. (I'm not trying to start anything here!!!!!!!!!). I read to many horor stories about full foam leak repairs. I hopping that Artesian's quailty workmenship keep the plumbing leak-tight. The only draw-back to TP is over-heating in mild/warm weather, and I have my own ideas about correcting that. I'll let you know how the wet test goes
john
How can you say your not trying to start anything!? Here let me throw a plug in for how we do it and then take a jab at the other guys(like that's not starting anything?)!
I sell both types of insulation and have to tell you that the worst leaking situations we've dealt with to date are from TP spas! This was mostly due to one brand that we were carrying and dropped but we have had little to no leaks in the FF, then again we only sell about 400 spas a year so maybe I don't have enough out there.
BTW, I would run from the Arctic spa as fast as I could. Their marketing alone should be a reason to not buy! There are many things that Arctic does that are concerning and I would be very happy to get into them if you would like.
There is no comparison between Arctic and Coleman, including the way they insulate. Coleman is one of the few companies out there that do TP right!
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I hate it when I come in late! Everyone has made solid comments above.
Cgar mentioned cheater lounge in the Artesian. That is one the selling points of the 480 also. The tub has barrier free seating allowing you to lounge with your feet pointed towards the intense therapy seats and cooler. Now theres a foot massage!
I also refer to this a rarity in that it is a six seater that can fit six, even six my size (6'2"+ 225lbs) although six opf me would sure displace alot of water!
HTM
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Hi Cgar
The only thing about Artesian's that I don't like is the full foam. I have been in the service/repair end of the heating/air conditioning busines for over 30 yrs. I would rather support piping that I can get to than look for leaks that I cannot get to. (I'm not trying to start anything here!!!!!!!!!). I read to many horor stories about full foam leak repairs. I hopping that Artesian's quailty workmenship keep the plumbing leak-tight. The only draw-back to TP is over-heating in mild/warm weather, and I have my own ideas about correcting that. I'll let you know how the wet test goes
john
You've opened up a can of worms now, haven't you? ;D Honestly though, I wouldn't make a decision on a spa based on the insulation type. Our store is now in it's 4th year and until we recently picked up the Colemans, everything has been full foam. To date we've had 0 leaks that required the removal of any foam. I won't get into the cracked union leaks that we have experienced with one particular brand (that we no longer carry).
Also, with the Piper Glen, I find it intriguing that due to the individual pumps there is far less hose running through the foam (if that means anything). Just short runs from the pump below the seat right into that particular seat.
Disclaimer: I'm not trying to plug the Artesian over the Coleman here. Just pointing out some of the differences. :-X
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I just knew I shouldn't have said that!!!, But now everyones in the game! LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
Stuart, I would like to know the difference between the quality insulation jobs between companies like arctic/coleman. As an outsider, still learning, I have not talked to reps. about how they insulate. Good point.
Also, everything I have heard/read about leaks HAS BEEN on lesser quality brands, but that can happen to anyone machines. One of the things I do, is new start-up of very large pkge. heating/cooling equipment, such as Malls, office bldge, schools, and we have what we call monday or friday machines, Machines that the factory claims were test ran and were OK. But I find different.
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I read to many horor stories about full foam leak repairs.
These "horror stories" often are fabricated by non-full foam people trying to sell their insulating version based on scare tactics (especially a nutcase in Colorado who sells over the net and strectches the truth beyond its limits). Servicing a full foam spa is not that difficult and many will argue that the frequency of having issues in the first place is greatly lessened by the fact that it is full foamed in the first place. Move on from the foam insulating issue as there is not end to the argument.
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Alright, enough insulation talk, back to subject. Has interior space, (volume) difference between tub companines been compared???
Can you tell I took some time off from work to work around the house!!!
john
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I just knew I shouldn't have said that!!!, But now everyones in the game! LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
Stuart, I would like to know the difference between the quality insulation jobs between companies like arctic/coleman. As an outsider, still learning, I have not talked to reps. about how they insulate. Good point.
Also, everything I have heard/read about leaks HAS BEEN on lesser quality brands, but that can happen to anyone machines. One of the things I do, is new start-up of very large pkge. heating/cooling equipment, such as Malls, office bldge, schools, and we have what we call monday or friday machines, Machines that the factory claims were test ran and were OK. But I find different.
My biggest issue with the way that Arctic insulates is that they spray all of they foam on the inside wall of the cabinet. By not filling the void they allow the weight of the foam to pull against the cabinet and then encourage more weight from water by adding several places on the cabinet to bring in moisture(i.e. rails top/bottom and door panels that bolt against rather than fit in the cabinet wall). In addition, by doing it this way they don’t provide any sound deadening nor support for the hoses and jets. They tout the fact that they are the only manufacture to use “Reflex Torsion hose” and are proud of that. I have news for you, with around 200 manufactures someone else would have picked it up if it was that good, it was available to all of us. The sheer nature of that type plumbing makes it harder to work with, glue and more in need of support, it’s bigger and heavier than standard PVC…
Let’s look at the heating system; first off, most of their marketing and sales pitch states that they can heat the spa without a heating element yet they put an expensive proprietary element in anyway, is this just to add cost? Many, many manufactures have tried to coat the element with Teflon and titanium but the failure rate made them quit. An example of that type of coating would be a Teflon coated skillet that you replace every year, the coating will and does come off!
Now, how about the “forever floor”? My first comment to that is I think it was absolutely unethical to sell it to the consumer the way they did when it came out. Did you get the “Ants in the cabinet pitch”? Over half of the dealers in the US were using that pitch which leads me to believe that it came from a factory level but regardless, if you understand the properties of fiberglass you would understand why putting a fiberglass base on the ground is a bad idea, have you ever heard of a substance called Cobalt?
All in all Arctic might have their place however it’s my opinion that everything on their spa is much more marketing oriented then engineering oriented and their sales pitch borderlines unethical.
I’ve said this many times, the statement of “Made in Canada for cold northeast conditions” makes me wonder how on earth my Eddie Bauer cold weather clothing made in Malaysia can keep me warm. Oh and BTW, on the Arctic website they make the statement “inspired by one of the most successfully adapted cold-weather animals in the world, the great white Polar Bear”, I have news for you, God made the Polar Bear with full insulation and no “dead air space” (or should that be “dead bear space”). Maybe he should have consulted some of the single moms (another Arctic pitch) working at Arctic before creating them. 8)
;)
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They tout the fact that they are the only manufacture to use “Reflex Torsion hose” and are proud of that. I have news for you, with around 200 manufactures someone else would have picked it up if it was that good, it was available to all of us. The sheer nature of that type plumbing makes it harder to work with, glue and more in need of support, it’s bigger and heavier than standard PVC…
I use this logic when I am discussing proprietary features with shoppers. Use Beachcomber for example. I will say there is some logic to the external equipment, but it is more marketing than anything. More to my point, it is not patented, so if it is in fact the best thing since sliced bread, why hasn't anyone else done it? ::)
Some features are so new that no one has had a chance/desire to copy them, especially if they are patented.
HTM
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Has interior space, (volume) difference between tub companines been compared???
There is no difference in internal spa volume between full foam and thermopane if that's what you're asking. Otherwise, its up to the individual to decide what kind of layout they like (lounge vs no lounge, open seating versus "bucket" seating).
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I was going to post a long reply to Stuart's attack, however, I don't really see what that would accomplish.
I only have one question... What good do your comments do for the image of our industry? Certainly, any consumer reading this would question the ethics of our industry. Would it not serve us all more to focus on answering the important questions and concerns of the customers on here constructively?
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I was going to post a long reply to your attack, however, I don't really see what that would accomplish.
I only have one question... What good do your comments do for the image of our industry? Certainly, any consumer reading this would question the ethics of our industry. Would it not serve us all more to focus on answering the important questions and concerns of the customers on here constructively?
There are brands out there like Thermo, haven and arctic that I feel as an industry professional I have the responsibility to put questions in the customers minds. As someone that has spent much of my life in this industry I should have the ability to separate sales pitch and fact more than the average customer. If it bothers you that I lay out what I see as issues with your brand then instead of getting hurt with me go after the manufacture and help bring them up to standard. I’m certainly not the only one that feels this way, search the boards and see what many other Techs, salesman and dealers say. You can pull all of the happy customers you want out of your hat and it simply means that they are happy with their purchase and defending it RIGHT NOW, most of them have no basis for comparison as they have owned and/or worked on 1 brand of tubs.
To answer you directly; Certainly a customer going through an Arctic sales pitch would have to question the ethics of a company that made statements like “made in Canada for cold northern conditions”. Do you not see the irony in that? That would be like HotSpring or D1 saying “Made in California, closer to water so we understand hydro therapy better”!
My “attack” was simply my opinion based on much experience and I welcome you posting yours….
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I, for one, support your comments Stuart. There is no more paranoid consumer than one that has shopped at an Arctic dealer.
HTM
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There are brands out there like Thermo, haven and arctic that I feel as an industry professional I have the responsibility to put questions in the customers minds. As someone that has spent much of my life in this industry I should have the ability to separate sales pitch and fact more than the average customer. If it bothers you that I lay out what I see as issues with your brand then instead of getting hurt with me go after the manufacture and help bring them up to standard. I’m certainly not the only one that feels this way, search the boards and see what many other Techs, salesman and dealers say. You can pull all of the happy customers you want out of your hat and it simply means that they are happy with their purchase and defending it RIGHT NOW, most of them have no basis for comparison as they have owned and/or worked on 1 brand of tubs.
To answer you directly; Certainly a customer going through an Arctic sales pitch would have to question the ethics of a company that made statements like “made in Canada for cold northern conditions”. Do you not see the irony in that? That would be like HotSpring or D1 saying “Made in California, closer to water so we understand hydro therapy better”!
My “attack” was simply my opinion based on much experience and I welcome you posting yours….
I support and respect Stuart's opinion. As an industry professional it is our duty to educate our customers on what to look for in a spa and to help them seperate the facts from the fluff. Now being a manager I try to stay out of sales if i can (I leave that to my sales staff), but I do deal with customers post purchase and let me tell ya I can always tell who's been misinformed................
Thankfully it's usually a customer who either purchased their spa from a show, or from a competitor, but nonetheless it is not a pleasant experience to A.) educate, and also B.) re-insure the customer that they got a great spa (even if it is from a competitor and I honestly believe it's a POS compared to what we sell).
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There are brands out there like Thermo, haven and arctic that I feel as an industry professional I have the responsibility to put questions in the customers minds. As someone that has spent much of my life in this industry I should have the ability to separate sales pitch and fact more than the average customer. If it bothers you that I lay out what I see as issues with your brand then instead of getting hurt with me go after the manufacture and help bring them up to standard. I’m certainly not the only one that feels this way, search the boards and see what many other Techs, salesman and dealers say. You can pull all of the happy customers you want out of your hat and it simply means that they are happy with their purchase and defending it RIGHT NOW, most of them have no basis for comparison as they have owned and/or worked on 1 brand of tubs.
To answer you directly; Certainly a customer going through an Arctic sales pitch would have to question the ethics of a company that made statements like “made in Canada for cold northern conditions”. Do you not see the irony in that? That would be like HotSpring or D1 saying “Made in California, closer to water so we understand hydro therapy better”!
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Firstly, I am with Arctic Spas, and frankly our product is already better then the "Standard" as you put it. I am certainly not hurt by your criticism. Perhaps you are right that living in Edmonton does not guarantee our capacity to make a better insulated spa, but it definitely requires us to consider it more carefully then a company whose people live in a warm climate like California, because if a spa has a problem at -40 the chances of long term damage occuring from freezing is very real.
Our product makes sense. Recovering the waste heat from the motors makes sense. Having access to repair the spa in the event of a problem makes sense. Having a floor on your spa makes sense. Having a cover that can handle a heavy snow load, insulates better and doesn't absorb water as easy makes sense. Making your spa shell thicker and stronger so that it will last longer makes sense. Building a cabinet with sturdy materials, like Cedar and extruded Aluminum, so they last longer makes sense.
There are at least two studies that prove our method of insulation is effective. There is countless anecdotal data supporting the quality of our product.
It seems obvious too me that you don't really know our product that well. You should do more research.
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Perhaps you are right that living in Edmonton does not guarantee our capacity to make a better insulated spa, but it definitely requires us to consider it more carefully then a company whose people live in a warm climate like California, because if a spa has a problem at -40 the chances of long term damage occuring from freezing is very real.
That is RIDICULOUS logic and flat out untrue. Sundance, Hot Spring, Caldera and D1 are probably the biggest spa makers in California but they sell spas all around North America and SO MANY go to the same places as Arctic spas (as a whole, far more than Arctic sells there) and they have just as much need to insulate properly as Arctic. I wish I knew how many spas they sell in the upper states and throughout Canada but we know it an enormous amount. Just because they sell many spas in the sunshine states does not mean they can afford to insulate them any less and they DO NOT. Try to pump up Arctic on their own merit rather than using conventient logic about the competition that has no basis in truth.
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I just have to reply to this. I'm in the North east, we've been selling D-1 spas for 18+ years now. i can tell you that where are located we get a lot of snow and cold in the winter. temperatures are normal below Zero in Jan and february, and the D-1 Spas have no difficulities in these conditions. We have thousands of spas we've sold out in the filed. Not bad for a spa made in california.
Jason,
Store manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer
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So which keirstead do we have the pleasure of debating with here, James or John?
Lot's of companies have bases but most of them are smart enough to understand the benefit of polymer vs fiberglass for it, lots of them use cedar cabinets and yes, it is a great wood but not when you jazz it up with rails and extrusions to allow moisture and debris to collect, that promotes deterioration. As far as you metal cabinet goes, I'm dying to see how long it lasts without a very heavy powder coat or at least being repainted. Thermo lock insulation is nothing new but setting it up to fail as I explained in my earlier post is ridiculous! BTW, who solicited and paid for the energy studies that you guys did? Oh, that's right, it was Arctic. I can't imagine how they found the study weighed in your favor when you paid them for it!
Your spas do look cool and your pitch is very believable as long as no one challenges it or has any engineering sense.
I know much more about your company and your product than you think, that’s why I struggle with your pitch so much. As a director of sales and marketing for your company I expect you to defend the product but as a competitor that has to deprogram many customers from the "stories” expect me to pick it apart.....
Perhaps you should tout your product more on the SS website with James, you guys seem to have a lot in common. Better yet maybe you can find a place at Blue Falls for him as an engineer and you can add the DAIT to your spas.
I’m sorry if I sound snide but I really don’t like Arctic’s consumer confusing pitch.
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Our product makes sense. Recovering the waste heat from the motors makes sense. Having access to repair the spa in the event of a problem makes sense. Having a floor on your spa makes sense. Having a cover that can handle a heavy snow load, insulates better and doesn't absorb water as easy makes sense. Making your spa shell thicker and stronger so that it will last longer makes sense. Building a cabinet with sturdy materials, like Cedar and extruded Aluminum, so they last longer makes sense.
There are at least two studies that prove our method of insulation is effective. There is countless anecdotal data supporting the quality of our product.
It seems obvious too me that you don't really know our product that well. You should do more research.
The thing I hate about the Arctic pitch is they are trying to make it sound like they are the only ones that 1. utilize waste heat from the pump motor 2. have access to the plumbing to make leaks easier to fix. 3. have a shell made from fiberglass backed acrylic. 4. insulates better. 5 have a thicker cover. 6 are energy effiecient.
All these things are available on many many brands, not just Arctic. So tell me again what there advantage is.
Tell me also about the heat loss during the 16 hours (most) a day the tub is not producing motor heat?
Get your facts straight before you read us a pitch taught to you during a sales conference!!!!!
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I only have one question... What good do your comments do for the image of our industry?
Yeh I agree... comments like "Our method of insulating a spa is more efficient" makes a joke out of industry doesn't it? :-/
BTW JPKeirstead, that was your quote! ;D
Can you say BRAINWASHED boys and girls? ::)
Steve
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Brainwashed?!?!?!?!?!? Isn't that being a tad bit kind??? These arctic sales guys are like a CULT! They preach that hell, fire and brimstone will rain down on you if buy any product OTHER then theirs. I dunno, in all of the sales training seminars I've been too, all the manufacturers always say NOT to use scare tactics nor badmouth the competition. And yes the way Arctic pitches their product does hurt our industry.
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As I said earlier in the thread, there is no consumer more paranoid about their purchase than one that has visited Arctic.
I sell Colemans. I do not claim they are the most energy efficient. I claim they are good, and near the top of the class, but not the best.
Until there is an independant test (not one a manufacturer paid for) commissioned by a government /consumer protection agency, all of the studies are tainted! Period.
I do not open the "easier to service" can of worms either. If the customer suggests it I say this before I agree:
"95% of leaks on all tubs, FF or TP, occur in near the equipment at a union, not at a glued jet fitting or manifold. Most leaks will ocur with in the first3 months while it is still covered, otherwise you will likely have to wait a long time for it to happen. But IF you are a DIY'er and IF you get a leak outside of warranty, the TP will be easier to fix."
It may be because I sell both that I appear to sit on the fence. Yoube the judge.
HTM
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Our product makes sense. Recovering the waste heat from the motors makes sense. Having access to repair the spa in the event of a problem makes sense. Having a floor on your spa makes sense. Having a cover that can handle a heavy snow load, insulates better and doesn't absorb water as easy makes sense. Making your spa shell thicker and stronger so that it will last longer makes sense. Building a cabinet with sturdy materials, like Cedar and extruded Aluminum, so they last longer makes sense.
Makes Sense ;)
I think I read that somewhere...maybe while watching twelve guys jump up and down on a cover. ::)
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Tell me also about the heat loss during the 16 hours (most) a day the tub is not producing motor heat?
Get your facts straight before you read us a pitch taught to you during a sales conference!!!!!
The pitch that irks me the most with Arctic is that they claim their hot tubs do not need a heater. How stupid do they think we are?
I completely agree with Stuart.
Regards Zz
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Oh and BTW, on the Arctic website they make the statement “inspired by one of the most successfully adapted cold-weather animals in the world, the great white Polar Bear”, I have news for you, God made the Polar Bear with full insulation and no “dead air space” (or should that be “dead bear space”). Maybe he should have consulted some of the single moms (another Arctic pitch) working at Arctic before creating them. 8)
;)
Well, I have news for you too, God did make the Polar Bear with dead air space.
"The white fur of the polar bear provides excellent insulation from the cold, even when they are swimming in the Arctic Ocean. The outer guard hairs form a layer that protects the inner fur from getting wet when the polar bear is in the ocean. These guard hairs are hollow and filled with air. Thus, they always have a layer of trapped air surrounding their bodies. After a swim they need only give a quick shake and they are nearly dry. There is also a thick layer of blubber that helps insulate the polar bear from the cold." taken from www.biosbcc.net
"Hollow and filled with air" doesn't exactly sound like full insulation to me.
Also, this is why humans develop goosebumps when we get cold which causes our hair to stand upright cold.
"What do goosebumps have to do with hair?
Everything! When you are chilled, or startled, you sometimes develop goosebumps. What are they? Temporary bumps on your skin caused by muscles attached to hair follicles pulling those hairs upright! Goosebumps actually serve a purpose in animals. Fluffing up fur or feathers helps trap air and make them warmer or make them look bigger and scarier." taken from kids.discovery.com
I'm not saying anything about which insulation design is better, I'm just correcting an incorrect statement.
mike
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The pitch that irks me the most with Arctic is that they claim their hot tubs do not need a heater. How stupid do they think we are?
Regards Zz
Actually, the test conducted by the Alberta Research Council tested three main criteria to evaluate the spas thermal performance:
1) Specific Steady-state power demand (W/m3)
2) Steady-state power consumption(W)
3) Cooling time (CT, h)
I suggest you read the report before you suggest anyone is trying to insult your intelligence.
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So which keirstead do we have the pleasure of debating with here, James or John?
I’m sorry if I sound snide but I really don’t like Arctic’s consumer confusing pitch.
I am James, and I am sorry if I sound defensive, but I really don't like to read all these uneducated, disparaging remarks about a product that we work so hard to make the best. You and some other spa salespeople on this site may not think our way makes sense, that's fine. We don't believe in many other manufacturers methods make sense either.
I don't think how we educate the customer is confusing. I do agree that it is in direct contravention to what most others say. I don't mind. I have never been one to blindly follow the pack.
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Yeh I agree... comments like "Our method of insulating a spa is more efficient" makes a joke out of industry doesn't it? :-/
BTW JPKeirstead, that was your quote! ;D
Can you say BRAINWASHED boys and girls? ::)
Steve
I don't see how my comment makes a joke out to the industry. I just believe our method is superior.
I am not Brainwashed, and neither are dealers or customers.
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This would JP's second opportunity to address my comment on reliability of studies Arctic commissioned. I IM'd him and he side stepped it there. I thought if I posted he would at least acknowledge the comment.
HTM
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Well, I have news for you too, God did make the Polar Bear with dead air space.
"The white fur of the polar bear provides excellent insulation from the cold, even when they are swimming in the Arctic Ocean. The outer guard hairs form a layer that protects the inner fur from getting wet when the polar bear is in the ocean. These guard hairs are hollow and filled with air. Thus, they always have a layer of trapped air surrounding their bodies. After a swim they need only give a quick shake and they are nearly dry. There is also a thick layer of blubber that helps insulate the polar bear from the cold." taken from www.biosbcc.net
"Hollow and filled with air" doesn't exactly sound like full insulation to me.
Pretty much every single hair on the polar bear is an enclosed tube; not exactly a vacuum but the air is insulated by the keratin that makes up the hair. Kinda similar to how foam work... a dense network of air tubes. And that "thick layer of blubber that 'helps' insulate" can be more than 4 inches thick. Together that could easily be considered "full insulation".
How that relates to the design of an Arctic spa, I haven't a clue.
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Wouldn't that mean then that Arctic is backwards? Shouldn't the insulation go on the shell and plumbing and then the "dead air" space go to the outside with a shell around it?
BTW James, do I really sound that uneducated in the spa industry to you? If your going to NSPI maybe we should meet and you educate me on how great your product is but don't sell me on your opinion, show me first hand how your insulation won't fail and why a rail type system is so good, in addition to several other things Arctic does. I would love for you to take the time, in fact I can probably arrange several of the regulars on this board to be there and be open minded for the education, what do you think....?