Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: soclosetobuying on October 04, 2004, 05:16:29 pm
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I'm SO CLOSE to buying a sweetwater cayman after all my wet testing this weekend. do I need a cd ozonator? what are the benefits? is it bad for the environment or am I confusing this with the ozone layer?
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Not bad for the environment.
Reduces the amount of other chems you have to add to keep the water safe. Ozone is an oxidizer, not a sanitizer, so you will have to add some type of sanitizer - just not as much.
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thank you very much
I feel like it's a basic question--i appreciate the answer.
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Chas covered this, except the hype aspect. This is an option that is over sold on a lot of hot tubs. As Chas stated a sanitation regime is still required. Not sure about the SW ozone but I am not a big fan of ozone systems that run off of massage pumps. They tend to shorten the life of pillows and covers signifigantly. The least amount of ozone damage comes from a UV bulb (as opposed to CD) on a circ pump (as opposed to a massage pump on low). Ask the dealer "does this ozone system bypass when the jets are on high speed" if the answer is yes, it most likely will have negative affects that I mentioned.
Let the debate begin....
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I am not a big fan of ozone systems that run off of massage pumps. They tend to shorten the life of pillows and covers signifigantly. The least amount of ozone damage comes from a UV bulb (as opposed to CD)
Let the debate begin....
...how may I ask does a pump that runs about a 1/3 of the time that a circ pump does shorten the life....
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It has to do with how much "live ozone" is being injected into the tub. Ozone will live for 22 seconds in the water and 25 minutes in the air. The trick is not to allow the ozone to become air-born in the tub with the cover on. It does on most tubs and oxidizes the pillows and cover.
Some systems are better and contain the ozonated water in the plumbing longer, there fore minimizing the damage casued bt the ozone.
If you ask the manufacturer/dealer "Does the ozone bypass when the jets are on high speed" and the answer is "yes" then you know that this tub does inject live ozone into the tub. Underwriters Laboratories tells that manufacturer to bypass the ozone when jets are on high speed so that the consumer is not exposed to high levels of ozone (a carcinogen (excuse the spelling)). Manufacturers do not want to be exposing consumers to cancer causing agents for obvious reasons.
If enough ozone is being injected to warrant protection of the consumer while he/she is in the tub, it is safe to say that the ozonation occuring on low speed with the cover on will do no damage to pillows/covers? Dont get me wrong the consumer can do the same kind of damage by mismanaging chlorine/bromine levels, but that would be the customers fault.
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Don't most systems shut the ozone off if the customer turns the pumps on? Or is that just Sundance?
George
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It has to do with how much "live ozone" is being injected into the tub. Ozone will live for 22 seconds in the water and 25 minutes in the air. The trick is not to allow the ozone to become air-born in the tub with the cover on. It does on most tubs and oxidizes the pillows and cover.
Some systems are better and contain the ozonated water in the plumbing longer, there fore minimizing the damage casued bt the ozone.
If you ask the manufacturer/dealer "Does the ozone bypass when the jets are on high speed" and the answer is "yes" then you know that this tub does inject live ozone into the tub. Underwriters Laboratories tells that manufacturer to bypass the ozone when jets are on high speed so that the consumer is not exposed to high levels of ozone (a carcinogen (excuse the spelling)). Manufacturers do not want to be exposing consumers to cancer causing agents for obvious reasons.
If enough ozone is being injected to warrant protection of the consumer while he/she is in the tub, it is safe to say that the ozonation occuring on low speed with the cover on will do no damage to pillows/covers? Dont get me wrong the consumer can do the same kind of damage by mismanaging chlorine/bromine levels, but that would be the customers fault.
I question the accuracy of some of your statements. I have read several studies on the health effects of ozone as well as multiple safety data sheets from companies with gas expertise and none of them found ozone to be carcinogenic. It is a known bronchial irritant and can be very problematic for those with asthma, diminished lung capacity, or ozone sensitivity. I have also looked for good data on the half-life of ozone under spa-water conditions and have not been able to find much of anything, much less a definative 22 seconds. It is not my intent to flame you, I just urge you to be cautious repeating information that does not have the weight of scientific review behind it. Especially in boards such as this where many spa newcomers come looking for information I believe it is important not to alarm them unnecessarily--especially with information that is not really "fact". Your other comments about ozone outgassing degrading pillows and covers *are* very well supported by evidence. Some manufacturers claim to prevent ozone gas from accumulating, but I am not qualified to comment on this.
Starlight
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Hello,
Actually "Starlight", according to the Hot Tub chemistry training I recieved from our chemical supplier, "HotTubMan" is correct about ozone (O3) being a "possible" carcinogin. This is because of scientific studies concerning "Free Radicals". In the case of the ozone molecule, two of the oxygen molecules have a very strong chemical bond while the third oxygen molecule has a weak chemical bond. It is this weakly bonded oxygen molecule that is referred to as a "Free Radical". And Free Radicals have been linked to causing cancer in several studies. The important thing to remember is that ozonators should be designed to use up all the "ozone" molecules before they reach the surface of the spa water, so that you can't breathe it in. Look for a Corona Discharge Ozonating system that is:
1.Capable of producing enough ozone to be an effective oxidizer.
2. Equipped with a large "Contact Chamber"- this will ensure that the "ozone" molecules will mix with enough spa water and get used up, so that no ozone molecules can reach the spa water's surface.
Hope this helps!!!
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Hello,
Actually "Starlight", according to the Hot Tub chemistry training I recieved from our chemical supplier, "HotTubMan" is correct about ozone (O3) being a "possible" carcinogin. This is because of scientific studies concerning "Free Radicals". In the case of the ozone molecule, two of the oxygen molecules have a very strong chemical bond while the third oxygen molecule has a weak chemical bond. It is this weakly bonded oxygen molecule that is referred to as a "Free Radical". And Free Radicals have been linked to causing cancer in several studies. The important thing to remember is that ozonators should be designed to use up all the "ozone" molecules before they reach the surface of the spa water, so that you can't breathe it in. Look for a Corona Discharge Ozonating system that is:
1.Capable of producing enough ozone to be an effective oxidizer.
2. Equipped with a large "Contact Chamber"- this will ensure that the "ozone" molecules will mix with enough spa water and get used up, so that no ozone molecules can reach the spa water's surface.
Hope this helps!!!
Hi Jordy,
Thanks for the advice. Actually, I have a degree in chemistry and currently work in the medical diagnostics industry so I consider myself pretty well versed in this particular area. None of the data I have seen substantiates classifying ozone as a carcinogen--at best, ozone exposure *might* accelerate pre-cancerous cells on their journey toward full cancer status. Ozone does have plenty of others issues accociated with it if the gas is allowed to concentrate, but cancer isn't one of them--at least according to the pretty extensive testing that has been done to date that I have seen.
Yes, "free radicals" are the current poster child blamed for all sorts of ills, but not all free radicals are equally damaging. Your chemical supplier incorrectly defined a free radical for you. Chemically, a "free radical" is a species with an unpaired electron--a high energy state that is reactive because it will "rip" an electron from other molecules to end up with paired electrons. Your body actually produces the superoxide (O2.) radical every day during the conversion of food into energy, so the cells evolved an enzyme (superoxide dismutase) specifically to break down this free radical.
I have heard statements out of the mouths of salesmen in the spa industry talking about water chemistry and sanitation that were incredibly incorrect. I don't know if it was lack of knowledge or deliberately misleading information to highlight the "improvements" of their brand versus the competition, but the end result is the same--the general public who has little knowledge in this area acts upon this flawed information. I hate seeing this misinformation further propagated in boards that reach considerable numbers of people. I don't often read the boards nor post when I do read them, but evey once in a while I see something where I feel I can contribute. Hopefully, I've helped alleviate concerns that people with ozonators are increasing their cancer risk. I encourage everyone to investigate the facts for themselves--the's no particular reason you should believe me more than any other internet poster. ;)
Just my .02
Starlight
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Thanks Starlight, hope you keep on contributing.
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Actually, I have a degree in chemistry and currently work in the medical diagnostics industry so I consider myself pretty well versed in this particular area.
Starlight
Then maybe you'll appreciate this joke my daughter told me:
Two Hydrogen atoms were walking down the street.
One said, "Oh no, I've lost an electron."
"Are you sure?" said the other one.
"Yes! I'm Positive."
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Starlight;
I hope my comments did not suggest anyone was going to get cancer from ozonators. I stated that systems have been designed to protect consumer from coming into contact with live ozone. I said that some ozone systems are more likely to cause damage to the covers and pillows.
I am curious, Starlight, how you would explain why some ozone systems work continuously and others have been designated to bypass while the jet pumps are on high speed. What is the motivation for the manufacturer to have such a bypass? Obviously I dont know the reason. :o
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I am curious, Starlight, how you would explain why some ozone systems work continuously and others have been designated to bypass while the jet pumps are on high speed. What is the motivation for the manufacturer to have such a bypass? Obviously I dont know the reason. :o
I think when he wrote:
" It is a known bronchial irritant and can be very problematic for those with asthma, diminished lung capacity, or ozone sensitivity."
he felt that was the motiviation.
The way I have always thought of it is that when the jet pumps are on and on hi the possibility for off-gassing is greater which can be very unpleasant for people sitting in the tub. I assume that when the jets are on high the water moves too fast through the ozone contact chamber for the ozone to properly be absorbed. But, that is just an assumption.
When I was wet testing, I remember the Jacuzzi had a noticable "thunderstorm" smell in the small room it was in. I wonder if that was ozone buildup?
-Ed
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When I was wet testing, I remember the Jacuzzi had a noticable "thunderstorm" smell in the small room it was in. I wonder if that was ozone buildup?
-Ed
Good question. I once remember an add for one of those Ion air cleaners that Sharper Image sells, and their add mentioned that thunderstorm smell in refernce to the ozone that their machine produced.
Brewman
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Don't most systems shut the ozone off if the customer turns the pumps on? Or is that just Sundance?
George
The Balboa controller used in Master Spas shuts off the ozonator whenever any therapy pump is turned on. It will stay off for 1 hour after the last pump is turned off.
8)
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It's still nothing more than a gimmick to sell hot tubs. PROOF, I WANT DOCUMENTED PROOF, that ozone does what everyone says it does in a HOT TUB. THERE IS NONE. I could give a rats ass what any spa company's tests say, show me third party testing in a hot tub, then and ONLY THEN will I ever proclaim the benefits of having ozone in a spa, and UNTIL then it is nothing more than a GIMMICK! :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
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Hello Wisoski,
I can tell you from firsthand experience, and second-hand experience (through my clients 800+ so far), that an ozonator makes a big difference in the amount of chemicals you add to the water and the overall appearance of the water. I don't think this comment will be scientific enough for you, but I have seen it make a difference with my own eyes. And yes, I agree that some salespeople oversell or exxagerate the effect or capabilities of ozonators. But an ozonator should not simply be dismissed as a gimmick, there are identifiable and obvious benefits that can be directly attributed to them.
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Has anyone ever run their ozonator-equipped tub without the ozonator running? Either because it broke and needed to be fixed or because they were testing something out?
My approach to ozonators was: "no real additional cost, it was all rolled into the bundle". Would I pay an extra $600 for one? no. Would I pay an extra $100 for one, why not.
There is NO specific scientific proof that ozone does anything in a hot tub. There is plenty of proof that ozone is great at killing things in water.
However, with or without ozone you may still need to shock once/week or after big parties. You may still need to add a tsp of MPS (or whatever) daily or every other day.
Does ozone kill stuff? Yup. Does it make a gross difference in chemical usage? Probably not. Does it somehow kill "better" than other sanitizers? doubtful. Dead germs are dead germs.
The only main advantage I see is that if you go away for a week or two, an ozonator may slow (not stop) the funking up of your tub.
-Ed
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I don't have ozone, but I've heard that it can be hard on the underside of covers, pillows, and the like?
Anyone experience these things?
Brewman
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Been really busy lately, so I haven't had a chance to visit the board. First , I didn't realize that Jordy is a dealer--I hope you didn't think my comments about some dealers were directed at you because they definitely were not. I was commenting on what I have heard with my own ears; the professionalism and knowledge of dealers on this board is considerably higher.
I really don't know for a fact why ozone shuts down when pumps are on. As Ed pointed out, my guess is that is would cause an air quality issue for some people--just like the air quality warnings issued on hot smoggy days and for partly the same reason. Ozone is a powerful oxidizer just like chlorine and I don't know many people willing to breathe chlorine fumes. It is also likely that this is regulated by *some* agency, though I can't imagine which one. OSHA has limits for ozone exposure in the workplace, regional air quality agencies and EPA regulate manufacturing emissions, but I don't know who has jurisdiction for spas. It may also be a UL/ETL requirement--if anyone is really interested I'd suggest contacting one of the manufacturers--someone on their staff will know for certain.
Brewman has the smell exactly right. It is the smell that happens after electrical discharge (which makes ozone) from things like lightning, laser printers and copiers, and ionizers which are a variant of the CD system used for spa ozone generation.
It is also true that there seems to be no scientific support for the effectiveness of ozone in spa water maintenance. The theory is good, but whether it has been engineered to work in practice has not been demonstrated in controlled studies. Anecdotal evidence suggests that it does offer some benefit, so I was willing to try it because the cost was low. I would like to do some ozone on/off comparisons in my spa but I'm having a very difficult time getting a stable chlorine usage pattern because my 2-year-old apparently urinates anything from zero to "a lot" when she goes in the spa.
Chas, the joke is an "oldie but goodie". I hope your father recovers fully and quickly.
Starlight
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I'm happy to report that my ozonator works great and has zero ozone odor! I read somewhere that many spa manufacture's short-cut the installation of ozonators by not installing long enough exposure chambers. I went to a local pool and spa dealer recently and observed the operation of their Sundance Optima with the ozonator running. The smell coming off that tub was dreadful! I hope they are not all like that. :-* Be Happy!
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No Jim, they all don't smell like that? I wonder if the Haven spas have that odour?
HTMan
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Which local Sundance dealer would that be?
Brewman
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I'm happy to report that my ozonator works great and has zero ozone odor! I read somewhere that many spa manufacture's short-cut the installation of ozonators by not installing long enough exposure chambers. I went to a local pool and spa dealer recently and observed the operation of their Sundance Optima with the ozonator running. The smell coming off that tub was dreadful! I hope they are not all like that. :-* Be Happy!
Once again Mr Happy (Jim) - Nobody cares what you have to say.
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I went to a local pool and spa dealer recently and observed the operation of their Sundance Optima with the ozonator running. The smell coming off that tub was dreadful! I hope they are not all like that. :-* Be Happy!
In another post you said you were a SCF owner... Are you dissatisfied with you Haven spa and were out shopping for a Sundance?
If so, good choice. No smell coming from our Optima. :D
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None from mine.
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In another post you said you were a SCF owner... Are you dissatisfied with you Haven spa and were out shopping for a Sundance?
If so, good choice. No smell coming from our Optima. :D
Bulmer4nc, Why are you so full of contempt? I happen to own a swimming pool and needed to pick up a closing kit and winter cover. That dealer sold me a pool this spring and I am a regular customer for supplies. They happen to be very nice there and sell pools, hot tubs. billiards and patio furniture. Of course I would not have bought that Optima. Can't you tell I did not like the odor? You people must all have a bad case of the MUTTS!
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MUTTS?
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I don't have ozone, but I've heard that it can be hard on the underside of covers, pillows, and the like?
Anyone experience these things?
Brewman
18 months in and my cover and pillows look great.
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MUTTS?
Its an acronym for My Underwear's Too Tight! :o It seems to be prolific around here be careful. Be Happy!
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How did liberals pay for your tub?
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Then maybe you'll appreciate this joke my daughter told me:
Two Hydrogen atoms were walking down the street.
One said, "Oh no, I've lost an electron."
"Are you sure?" said the other one.
"Yes! I'm Positive."
Chas,
I just thought I would peek back in for a moment while trying to get a budget going and this really made me laugh! ;D
I took many years of Physics and cringe to think that I'm geek enough to find this hilarious!
Hope things are going well with your dad, I’m sooo tempted to get into the “Mr. Happy” fray but don’t have time to give it my full attention right now!
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Stuart-
Please return soon. It would be fun to have you join the Mr. (soon to be banned, I bet) Happy fray.
Brewman
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Has anyone ever run their ozonator-equipped tub without the ozonator running? Either because it broke and needed to be fixed or because they were testing something out?
Yep, unfortunately, I have...
I've contributed plenty to past threads regarding ozonation, in summary I agree with how Starlight represents ozonation here and take the Wisoki approach to "show me the data".
Since Ed asked I wanted to share my experience, I must admit that it has altered my view of ozonation...
I had been running my spa for about 2 weeks - heavy, consistent use. Water chemistry had been perfect since day 2 - PH stable, total Alk stable, bromine level the same every day, shocking with MPS when necessary. On day 16 the water turned cloudy. I didn't understand why. Again chemistry was "perfect" and use was consistent. I shocked it, filtered and cleaned the filters. Increased filter cycle to max (12 hours) and just let filter without use for 2 days. The shock did it's thing, bromine and chlorine levels returned to normal and the chemistry remained "perfect" - but the water remained cloudy. I didn't understand ??? Finally it came to me to check the ozonator...
Well, the ozonator was not working. I am certain it was working on day 11, the last time I checked it. In short, there was a loose connection where the ozonator plugged into the power source; I fixed it and the ozonator was working once again. I didn't use the spa that day. The next morning the water was noticibly clearer, so I used it. The following morning water was crystal clear.
For me, that was empirical proof that the ozonator did indeed add benefit to my spa's sanitation - qualitatively it made me a believer