Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: MaryM on September 23, 2004, 02:36:48 pm
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Car buyers can check average dealer cost through a number of sources - Edmonds, Kelly Blue Book, NADA.
Is there any such source, paper or internet, for spas?
Thanks,
Mary
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I didn't know worms came in cans!
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You will find that dealers are very protective of their cost information. It is not readily available.
There are a lot of dealers on this board and this topic is strongly discouraged.
About the only thing you can do, is compare a price quoted to you, with prices others were quoted else-where. That will tell you if you got a comparable deal to others.
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Car buyers can check average dealer cost through a number of sources - Edmonds, Kelly Blue Book, NADA.
And you really believe this is the actual price the dealers pay for the vehicle?????
The spa industry is not related to the automotive industry.
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The spa industry is not related to the automotive industry.
I know that there is a markup on *every* retail item. I am trying to figure out what is a fair price, and would like to make an offer based on that. I was quoted over $10,000 for the following. It seems very high. I am in New England.
Sundance Otptima
Steps
Stereo w/remote
cover lift
Thanks,
Mary
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I think cost on that Sundance is like 12000.00 so the dealer is losing money and hoping it up in volume...... ;)....what that does make any sense.....he would lose money more quickly that way.....maybe you should check around and see what seems to be the market price for your area.....There are many SUndance owners here...I am sure they will be of help....
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Please nobody suggest that this is Dazed and Confused with a sex change operation ::). Mary, you will get lots of good help here in this forum, but this is a question that won't get a good answer.
To me, many dealers bring this on themselves. Some have everyday lists prices that they only hope they could sell it for and usually sell most spas at least a thousand or two less so everyone buys on sale! Somewhere is a guy who wants the best and doesn't care what he spends on it and actually likes to brag about this $10000 spa.
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Sundance Optima, steps, cover, lift, start up chemicals, colorglo light, delivery - 8299.99 plus tax. Thats what my brother in law just paid for one in Erie, Pa this past weekend.
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No there is not. Although the industry might eventually go to that someday in the future, right now we are still predominantly small business's pricing our services and goods according to what we feel it is worth to the consumer.
One of the most common misconceptions in the car industry is that consumers believe they are truly getting factory "wholesale" invoice. Don't believe for a moment that there is not a decent markup on every new car you buy. There is no way on earth that every car dealer in the world would be able to do sales like "match your down payment" or "$3000 instant cashback" in addition to the millions of dollars in advertising they do.
Look in any newspaper in the country and the largest and most expensive ads are always new car dealers.
How many new car dealers fail a year? Not near as many as most small business with goods and services like spas. Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that new car dealers are making a lot of money? How do you think they can afford the massive facilities they have?
I'm just trying to bring some reality to your question - believe me, there is a whole lot more markup and profit in the sale of a new auto then in the sale of a new spa!
I would love it if the factories would come up with a system that standardized price so that it made it easier for the dealers and then just paid us a "kick back" off of the wholesale. It would certainly cut back on the dickering if I could show you a "dealer price" with my profit hidden in the factory invoice!
Understand that across the board, spas built the same components using the same materials will cost the same to build and should be similarly priced. If you do plenty of research and compare apples to apples you will be able to judge whether your getting a good price. The only way this doesn’t work is when someone sells deceptively and claims a component on their product is the same as another when indeed it isn’t.
Sorry for the rant but this just came up with a customer that is a car dealer and it became quite frustrating before it was over.
I didn't know worms came in cans!
How'd I do at filling the can? ;);D
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Let's approach this from a different angle. I agree that car prices aren't a good model.
How about electronics? I used to work for what was considered a "high end" audio store ( you know, the 5K amplifiers, 20K speakers.....) Our markup was pretty much common knowledge or at least available to those willing to spend some time looking (damned internet.)
Every knowledgable customer "knew" that our products were 60 or 50 point lines. Additionally, the list prices were pretty much national. It didn't matter where you went, the list price was the same. To me that's the real key here. I don't know of any "list price" lists for spas.
I can't compare one 8K spa to another because I don't really know what I'm comparing. Is one spa actually more expensive than another? Is one dealer making a larger profit? Are the accessories added by one dealer "better" than another? How would I know?
Now if I at least had a list price, I could look at who was giving the better deal. I'd be able to measure price against service department against dealer satisfaction.
We made most of our sales based upon the fact that we had an in-house serviceman. Many competing audio stores didn't. To many people, that was worth a little extra to have that security. To some people, it didn't matter, and we lost some of those sales. To a large degeee, I can't factor that security into a spa decision.
Would dealer cost help? Sure, why not. But I'd be much happier with a real list price.
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Mary M,
Everyone here knows where you where going with your question. I personally think it's a very fair question to ask. Although, like the car salesman, you will not get a straight answer here or anywhere else.
Like any good business, the "actual" cost to produce a product is never released to the public. If you think about it, if I make widgets and they cost me a dollar to make and I sell them for $10, do you think I want you to know that they cost me a buck? If everyone knew that info I would go out of business in no time because everyone would want to pay $1.10 for my widgets.
Anyway, you will find that like cars, Spa prices are negotiable. So don't just accept the first price that is offered. There are about 4 or 5 other makers of hot tubs with comparable models. Check them all out and then negotiate (sp) the best price.
I also live in New England (Massachusetts) and also interested in a good Spa at a good price. Where in NE do you live?
;)
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I know that there is a markup on *every* retail item. I am trying to figure out what is a fair price, and would like to make an offer based on that. I was quoted over $10,000 for the following. It seems very high. I am in New England.
Sundance Otptima
Steps
Stereo w/remote
cover lift
Thanks,
Mary
Give negotiation a try. You won't find any definitive dealer cost information. Compare that spa to other brands, at least that will give you an idea of the cost of spas in your area.
Brewman
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Let's approach this from a different angle. I agree that car prices aren't a good model.
How about electronics? I used to work for what was considered a "high end" audio store ( you know, the 5K amplifiers, 20K speakers.....) Our markup was pretty much common knowledge or at least available to those willing to spend some time looking (damned internet.)
Every knowledgable customer "knew" that our products were 60 or 50 point lines. Additionally, the list prices were pretty much national. It didn't matter where you went, the list price was the same. To me that's the real key here. I don't know of any "list price" lists for spas.
I can't compare one 8K spa to another because I don't really know what I'm comparing. Is one spa actually more expensive than another? Is one dealer making a larger profit? Are the accessories added by one dealer "better" than another? How would I know?
Now if I at least had a list price, I could look at who was giving the better deal. I'd be able to measure price against service department against dealer satisfaction.
We made most of our sales based upon the fact that we had an in-house serviceman. Many competing audio stores didn't. To many people, that was worth a little extra to have that security. To some people, it didn't matter, and we lost some of those sales. To a large degeee, I can't factor that security into a spa decision.
Would dealer cost help? Sure, why not. But I'd be much happier with a real list price.
Let's take your scenario of 60 to 50 point lines for an example.
Let's say I sell a spa for $5000 and make 50 points (fat chance!) which should mean a $2500 profit. I take out of that $150 for the cost of delivery using 2 men, spa dolly, truck, wear on straps and tools. Then I take out $300 for commission, $60 for start up chemicals, $60 for steps, $130 for cover lift the salesman "threw in", $120 to replace the boards on the deck that got "scratched" during the delivery, $100 for the workman’s comp. insurance I had to pay on the guy that got hurt when the customer "tried to help", $250 for the cost per person on advertising to get you into the store, $150 I had to pay for you using a credit card, $80 I have to pay in literature and labor for paperwork handling. That leaves me $1100 to pay rent, lights, incidental business costs not counting all of the extra phone calls and non-warranty trips to your house because you didn't read the owners manual and didn't know how to operate the spa and free water tests.
Considering most warranties are around 5 years and most customers believe that means that the dealership will baby-sit everything for that timeframe, that isn't enough profit to stay in business. BTW, most spa dealers would love to get even 40 points before all of those things but don't...
I hope this sheds some light without sounding “snide”.
All of these things are real costs not including tons of other potential loss items like damaged covers, scratches on cabinets and extra delivery times because we weren’t informed of an 8ft deck , 20 stairs and that pile of wood we had to move to get the spa in!
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Why don't you all leave DAZE alone and let him enjoy his Gulf Coast Spa.Heard he spent $7000 on it...Jt
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NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT
TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
They matched the Costco price of 3495 and they threw in 10 years of chemicals and 24 hour a day service......
The only hold up is whether to ozone or not......
That is his next decision (the dealer said the deal was good for 15 years)
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Once again, I applaud your response Stuart. You said it so well, I have nothing to add.
OK since Gulf Coast was mentioned. Factor in the extra discount you dished out since Gulf Coast made it seem like we all mark up 400% by advertising "$12000 hot tub, brand new still in wrapper only $6000" in classifieds.
HTMan
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You know, I've read loads of threads like this on this forum, and again, I have to say that a 'good price' should be one that the customer is happy with. I'm not a dealer, just a customer, but i just think that if you were to pay £8000 for a tub you were completely happy and satisfied with, you sholdn't then change your mind about it it, just because someone else bought it for £7000. At the end of the day, if you're happy with a price, and as long as it's in the same sort of ball park as you need it to be, then what's the problem? Everyone lives by selling something, and I sometimes think we need to appreciate that a dealer can't possibly seel us customers a tub at cost.
saz
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Please nobody suggest that this is Dazed and Confused with a sex change operation ::).
After reading your previous post Bill on how to make mistakes and now this. Have'nt had a good laugh like that in a long time.
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MaryM,
The best advice is this: Shop around to all Sundance dealers in your area and find the best price you can for them. In MD a 2004 Sundance Optima costs around $8800 + tax, plus more for extras like cover lifters, etc...
But, I believe the cost of living is higher in New England. Just like a townhouse in MD costs less than a townhouse in MA, you may have to pay more because of your location.
I've heard dealers have a markup of 30%, but obviously that varies greatly from dealer to dealer. But making a few grand off of the tub is to be expected, especially for a luxury item. Dealers don't sell 4000 tubs a year!
Some negotiation tips:
1) Ask when sales are. Say you will wait for a sale, or will take it sooner if you get the sale price sooner.
2) Comparison shop. It is just not true that nothing compares to an optima, which is what the dealer will tell you. Find other nice tubs out there and see what they cost. If the local Hot Springs dealer is $1k less, that's probably too much of a price difference and somebody is doing something wrong. (I picked HS as an example because I own one)
3) Wait until spring of 2005 and grab 2004 models as they are being phased out.
BUT, and this is another important point, don't quabble over $300. Part of the experience on this board says that you will not enjoy your tub less if you paid $9300 instead of $9000. Now, $300, $500, $2.50, whatever it is, you have wiggle room where you can meet your dealer "part-way". Figure out what your comfort level is and you will have a less stressful shopping experience.
-Ed
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MaryM
You should be able to buy that spa for mid nines in MA with a stereo.
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Stuart, I fully understand your costs and I agree that most people don't take them into consideration when negotiating a price. By the way, the audio store had fixed costs that were very similar to yours, at least you don't have to fish wires through attics or cut holes in walls. These costs are a fact of life. But my point is that if there were list prices, you may be able to eliminate the nickel and dime negotiations.
Ed, you suggest shopping around at all of the Sundance dealers in your area. These aren't Fords! In a 30 mile radius I can shop 12 different Ford dealerships. In that same radius, I can shop 1 Sundance delaership. So price comparisons are virtually impossible.
One of the problems I see is whan a poster asks if they got a fair price, responses are varied in price and geography. Why should there be a large variation between Montanna, California, Florisa, and New Jersey?
They all pay the same for the product (not counting shipping), yet each dealer sells at some mysterious price. How is that price determined? For all I can tell, it's what the market can bear. And then dealers wonder why they get such a bad rap! At lease if there were list prices consumers would have a baseline.
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Why should there be a large variation between Montanna, California, Florisa, and New Jersey?
They all pay the same for the product (not counting shipping), yet each dealer sells at some mysterious price. How is that price determined? For all I can tell, it's what the market can bear.
What the market can bear is certainly a factor but there are many others. For example, are shipping costs the same? Do they all have similar costs relative to their leases on their showrooms? Do they pay their employees a similar rate? Etc. I would expect the Sundance dealer in Montana would have a distinct advantage over the dealer in New Jersey on all the aforementioned costs. Nothing is for free, all dealer costs get factored into the price.
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Well, if Im not mistaken, and dealers please chime in here. If dealer A sells 600 tubs a year, and dealer b sells 50, doesnt dealer A get a better price from the manufacturer? This could be why the prices differ so much, dealer B might pay more, therefore have to mark up more in order to survive.
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BobRex;
Here are some reasons for price variances:
1) Some manufacturers give volume discounts based on the number of units a dealer buys
2) Some dealers OWN all the tubs that they floor/warehouse as opposed to using a flooring company. The flooring company is either a cost to the delaer or built in with the manufacturer.
3) Dealer overhead. $/square foot of the retail space. For example I am in a industrial/retail area and I pay <$10/sq. ft. One of my competitors OWNS his building. One of my competitors in a neighboring town pays $20/sq. ft in a higfh traffic retail area.
Market forces are also quite important.
I can think of at least 3 more less signifigant reasons, but how is that for a an explaination for cost variances.
HTMan
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Stuart, I fully understand your costs and I agree that most people don't take them into consideration when negotiating a price. By the way, the audio store had fixed costs that were very similar to yours, at least you don't have to fish wires through attics or cut holes in walls. These costs are a fact of life. But my point is that if there were list prices, you may be able to eliminate the nickel and dime negotiations.
The "fixed costs are not the same! I used to own an office equipment dealership and understand the fixed costs similar to the electronics industry. In spas your dealing with potential health issues, hydraulics, pneumatics, electrical, electronics, psychology, thermodynamics, mechanical engineering, family dynamics and even building trades.
Ed, you suggest shopping around at all of the Sundance dealers in your area. These aren't Fords! In a 30 mile radius I can shop 12 different Ford dealerships. In that same radius, I can shop 1 Sundance delaership. So price comparisons are virtually impossible.
This is why they hide so much of the profit in the "dealer price" so as to make it fair for all the dealers in the area. If there were more consumer info out their and the sheer mass of ratings that are available on autos then yes it would be much easier to just sell ourselves and our dealership. Prices would climb just like they have in autos because it would now be monopolized by the manufactures. If we operated under the same rules as the auto industry we would be accused of "price fixing" and it would become even harder for a customer to "get a deal".
One of the problems I see is whan a poster asks if they got a fair price, responses are varied in price and geography. Why should there be a large variation between Montanna, California, Florisa, and New Jersey?
They all pay the same for the product (not counting shipping), yet each dealer sells at some mysterious price. How is that price determined? For all I can tell, it's what the market can bear. And then dealers wonder why they get such a bad rap! At lease if there were list prices consumers would have a baseline.
Dealers don't pay the same price! There are volume discounts in addition to freight costs. Most dealers figure many of the costs into the purchase price and we don't all use the same sources for chemicals and accessories delivered with a spa in addition to the fact that we have to employ more unique talents to sell and deliver 1 spa than an auto dealer has to employ to sell one car, hence the list above. The price of trades type labor varies more in our industry from state to state also a lot more than it does in even auto mechanics.
I understand your point and we may someday get to the place your talking about. Understand though that when this industry goes there you can be assured that the price of spas will either skyrocket and/or the quality of materials and service will go down because the only people that will be able to sell spas are the big box stores. BTW, that is exactly what happened to the mom and pop office equipment dealerships and electronic stores. I know that technology changed in office equipment and everyone went to computers but look at the sheer quality difference between the solid IBM Selectric typewriters and the cheap throw away electronic units out today. Last thought, do you realize that if you go to a Wal-Mart or Home depot in an area of town that is lower cost of living you will notice a considerable price difference from the same products at the same type store in an area that is higher cost of living?
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Been thinking about that last post and had to add something.
I'm not trying to be myopic in my answers so maybe this will help.
90% of the population owns TV sets and/or similar electronic devices.
75% of the population owns autos
3 to 4% of the population owns or even knows anything about spas! Until that changes we won't be able to have the same guidlines as the other two industries. So if you want to see some of the changes your talking about get out there and get people to start buying more!
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Sundance Optima, steps, cover, lift, start up chemicals, colorglo light, delivery - 8299.99 plus tax. Thats what my brother in law just paid for one in Erie, Pa this past weekend.
My old home town, who sells Sundance there?
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I believe Lighthouse does…
http://litehouse.sundancespas.com/
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Ed, you suggest shopping around at all of the Sundance dealers in your area. These aren't Fords! In a 30 mile radius I can shop 12 different Ford dealerships. In that same radius, I can shop 1 Sundance delaership. So price comparisons are virtually impossible.
True in the sense that there is only 1 Sundance dealer you can buy from. However, when looking for a tub, I also comparison shopped Sundance dealers. The one < 10 miles from me wanted over $9k (I think I remember that right) for an optima. A sundance dealer something like 50 miles away from me was offering the same for the low $8's. Another dealer within 30 miles was offering an optima for almost $1k less. And, actually, the 30 mile dealer *would* sell into this guys territory which, apparently, is "heavily discouraged" but he woudl do it.
Fortunately, I just didn't like the optima anymore when I wet tested the grandee and those problems went away since my local HS dealer was cheaper. Usually HS is considered the wallet bleeder, but for whatever reaosn, the local Sundance dealer was charging a real premium.
There is a thread called "monopoly" from many months ago that I started with just this subject.
-Ed
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One of the problems I see is whan a poster asks if they got a fair price, responses are varied in price and geography. Why should there be a large variation between Montanna, California, Florisa, and New Jersey?
They all pay the same for the product (not counting shipping), yet each dealer sells at some mysterious price. How is that price determined? For all I can tell, it's what the market can bear. And then dealers wonder why they get such a bad rap! At lease if there were list prices consumers would have a baseline.
...Here goes the same old argument again...Why the cost difference state to state.....THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS VARIES STATE TO STATE AS DOES THE COST OF LIVING.....how many homes in say Alabama on a 7000 sq ft lot with 2000 sq ft of house are selling for $600,000.00 it is a common price here in so cal.....it is always best to see what spas in your area are trading for....however I think if you will do any genuine research you will find on average that people across the country are usually within $700.00 of each other and remember what I am saying is price paid and not what some dealer might be asking but what people are paying...
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Here goes the same old argument again...Why the cost difference state to state.....THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS VARIES STATE TO STATE AS DOES THE COST OF LIVING.....how many homes in say Alabama on a 7000 sq ft lot with 2000 sq ft of house are selling for $600,000.00
Yeah, yeah, boo hoo! Stop comparing real estate to the cost of a commodity! A company called conrad johnson makes a pre-amplifier that costs $7500 dollars. There are roughly 150 dealers in the entire country. You can walk into any dealer and the LIST PRICE is THE SAME! It doesn't matter where you are! Now, a dealer will probably sell 2 or 3 of these in a year, so there go any volume discounts. These are sold out of mom and pop brick front stores with qualified sales staff (and from what I've seen around here, the typical audio salesman is much more educated than any spa sales rep I've taked to - I dunno maybe my area is unique, sort doubt it though) and (maybe) qualified service people. This is only one item in a roughly $100K - $250K inventory the dealer must stock in order to do business. This is a boutique item in a field filled with such items (how about a speaker that costs $120K and requires 4 amplifiers to run?) So am I comparing similar businesses? Yeah, probably closer than you think. I'm not talking about Best Buy or Target here, I'm talking about dedicated people trying to make a meager living doing what they enjoy (sound familiar?) Floot planning? Some do, some don't.
Many of these stores would love to do about half a million a year, most would be happy with 300 thousand.
I'm looking a flat panel tvs right now. I can log into Toshiba's web page and see that certain tv retails for $6K. I can walk into Best Buy and buy that tv for $4K.
BUT.... When I want to compare models and features, I look at comparing (here we go again) LIST PRICES, not sale prices.
Maybe my problem is that I don't feel spa prices should be as negotiable as they appear to be. Of course shipping costs differ! And those should be factored into the price! Real estate costs? Sorry, cost of doing business. I can think of a 20K amplifier that costs the same in Manhattan and it does in Peoria. The sucker weighs 125 lbs (btw - I'm not making this up, check out KRELL) so it has to be shipped motor freight. If you are lucky, you might get a 10% discount on the amp. Now as far as percentage of population buying this stuff, trust me it's far, far less than 3%. And nobody has ever cried price fixing! Chemical costs? Drop in the bucket! Most audio dealers give speaker cable away with speaker purchases. 10ft? 20ft? maybe 50ft at between a buck and possibly 10 bucks a foot. If you want the real good stuff it's gonna cost you, I'll cut you a deal if you buy the speakers (once again, sound familiar?)
Sorry guys, but so far everything I've heard is an excuse!
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Who normally sets the list price on a product?
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Here goes the same old argument again...Why the cost difference state to state.....THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS VARIES STATE TO STATE AS DOES THE COST OF LIVING.....how many homes in say Alabama on a 7000 sq ft lot with 2000 sq ft of house are selling for $600,000.00
Yeah, yeah, boo hoo! Stop comparing real estate to the cost of a commodity! A company called conrad johnson makes a pre-amplifier that costs $7500 dollars. There are roughly 150 dealers in the entire country. You can walk into any dealer and the LIST PRICE is THE SAME!
Mr REX.....Can you spell M-O-N-O-P-O-L-Y...150 dealers is far more manageable than several thousand dealers across the country.....and if list price is the accepted selling price than why shop.....As for Boo Hooing …….sorry if reality is something you are unaccustomed to dealing with but the cost of business does vary state to state as does the season for spas…not many folks in the colder climates where the ground is frozen are out laying concrete and digging trenches for electric in the middle of winter….Yet the dealers stay open year round to provide service….
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BobRex=Dazed?
Bob;
Are you suggesting that volume discounts, cash discounts and less over head WOULD NOT explain why one dealer sells for less than another? GIVE YOUR HEAD A SHAKE.
HTMan
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... not what some dealer might be asking but what people are paying...
BINGO!
That my friend is the real issue at hand - some/many/most dealers do not ask for the price educated shoppers pay.
Mary,
this is the "advice" I usually give to folks shopping for spas...
dealer "best price"/"bottom line" is the best kept secret in the spa purchase relationship.
Hot tubs are a leisure product marketed for discretionary income. There is no price regulation in the spa industry and won't be for a long time if ever. Dealers can set any price they want - it's a free market and consumers need to get over it if they want to be in the club.
After shopping, the purchase process can be summarized as...
...set your budget, educate yourself as to what others are paying, set your best price and buy the tub you want that works for you from the dealer that you want to support
- OR -
... opt to go to a Costco/HomeDepot/"Big Box" store and purchase for the price on the tag.
Done - happy tubbing.
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Who normally sets the list price on a product?
I would guess that the manufacturer sets the suggested retail.
I got a wallet with a suggest retail fake price of $50 for $11. Did I save $39? No, I spent $11.
Was that wallet worth the $50? No way. Not to me anyway, and I doubt it's selling anywhere for that price.
So what. Suggest retail or list price is usually a fairy tale.
Face it- we live in a free market economy. Sellers are free to charge whatever they want, short of breaking any laws that may be in place, and buyers are free to either pay, negotiate, or walk.
Easy as pie.
Brewman
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Well said Brewman! It's a free enterprise system. Vendor charges what the market is willing to pay. Go too far above or below that price and you're out of business 'cause you either price yourself out of the market or fail to recover your cost. (Supply & demand, Econ 101 class, guns & butter.)
Forget about dealer cost and just decide if you want a hottub. If you do, well the price is _____. Now shop around to see how that compares to average in your market. Buy a hottub or go bowling, free enterprise system. Hmmm. . .cooling off outside, think I'll go tubbing.
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Mary,
I hope amid all of this bickering and bantering we explained why it would be impossible to come up with a standardized price on a spa nationwide. If you find a spa you like and get a quote, post it for discussion. There are enough people reading this that have bought a spa that will let you know how it falls inline with your quote.
BobRex,
If you have an idea that would get dealers the margins and/or volume that electronics stores and car dealerships get we're all for it and will suggest it to the manufactures. By some of your comments like challenging whether 3-4% of the population have a spa you obviously know much more then the NSPI or the Hot Tub council that quote those percentages quite often. With that vast knowledge you probably have a way to institute it that we don't, I nominate you our liaison to the upper echelon of the industry! Go getum tiger we will be here waiting for your campaign to pay off for all of us….
My store sells over 400 units a year not including Pool Tables, Fireplaces, Saunas and grills. I would love to live in the neighborhoods that the auto dealers do or the owners of the big electronic stores in my area but I can't afford it. Maybe if I didn't pay my crew as well, gouged my customers more or cheated on taxes I could make enough move! BTW, we are considered a large store in this industry.
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Simply ask your dealer to tell you or perhaps show you what the last client paid for the exact same model earlier this month. I agree with many here who have commented on the massive differences in prices that consumers have paid for identical spas at the same dealership. It is these kinds of business practises (artificially inflated prices to give the appearance of getting a GREAT DEAL-today only of course) that make the shopping experience a frustrating and stressful process for consumers. I know that there are very few dealers who are willing to do business differently, but I believe that the one's who do clearly display their "real pricing" for consumers will be the winners, because they make it easy for consumers to believe that they will be treated fairly. Good Luck!
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I know that there is a markup on *every* retail item. I am trying to figure out what is a fair price, and would like to make an offer based on that. I was quoted over $10,000 for the following. It seems very high. I am in New England.
Sundance Otptima
Steps
Stereo w/remote
cover lift
Thanks,
Mary
Where in New England are you located? We are a CT and Western MA Sundance dealer. We are a no haggle dealer just like Saturn cars. Complete package one price. Ask Shoemaker I quoted him a price that every other store or sales rep with the company would to the penny. If your in our territory nows the time to buy a spa this month with the Big E and all the other fairs you are going to get the best possible package we offer with no inflated spa price.
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Where in New England are you located? We are a CT and Western MA Sundance dealer. We are a no haggle dealer just like Saturn cars. Complete package one price. Ask Shoemaker I quoted him a price that every other store or sales rep with the company would to the penny. If your in our territory nows the time to buy a spa this month with the Big E and all the other fairs you are going to get the best possible package we offer with no inflated spa price.
I am in RI. I appreciate your response, but it seems contradictory. You say Sundance is a no-haggle dealer, yet now is the time to get a no-inflated spa price. So are you saying that a dealer might give me an inflated price, and I would be stuck with that - pay it or buy elsewhere? They rather rather have a customer walk away then pay a fair price?
I *am* looking to build a relationship with a dealer - service, chems, etc, so rather than paying an inflated price here, or a lower price further away just to get the price, I would probably buy a different brand spa that I thought was a fair price.
I truely appreciate everyones input.
~Mary
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Mary,
Some dealers have "sales" all the time, my local Sundance and Hot Springs dealers are always having sales. There are some dealers who have true sales and there are some who have the same price all the time.
It seems that the manufacturers may give dealers certain incentives to lower prices at different times of the year - these would be true sales. It seems that Beachcomber sponsors "tent sales" at different dealers throughout the year.
As a consumer, it can be disheartening to get a price quote and see the same thing advertised for less a few weeks later - this is where you need to do your homework.
It was suggested to put a price tag on the purchase - this is reasonable, but be reasonable about pricing. Don't expect a $12,000 tub for $7,000. Look here and on other sites around the internet for pricing info.
Go to different dealers of the same tub manufacturer. You can see what other dealers are selling the tub for. Also ask the dealers when they run sales - the Hot Springs dealer told me the prices of the tubs and I said they were awfully high. He told me to come back during one of his sales to get a lower price.
Hot Springs and Sundance aren't the only manufacturers out there. I looked at close to 10 different manufacturers, some were much more expensive than others. The best values IMO are Emerald and Beachcomber. Coleman has good prices also.
In everything we do, there are some people who will try to maximize profit (OK - rip off) on the not so knowledgeable consumer. And there are the people who will do the right thing. People mentioned the auto industry - in 1999 I went to buy a car and went to 8 dealers (same manufacturer), some dealers didn't want to hear what I had to say, some dealers wanted me to haggle the price and one dealer gave me the best price from the start - I bought from him.
Take your time to look and keep notes on tubs and dealers. Pricing is going to be an individual thing - don't worry too much about a little price difference as ebirrane wrote. In his post he quoted $8800 for an optima, add approx $750 for stereo that's $9550. From what I read (I Think) the remote is extra. So around $10,000 may seem reasonable if you add steps and cover lifter. I also think that the "plastic wood" is extra on Sundance (I think it's about $500).
Thats my 2 cents.
Vinny
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I am in RI. I appreciate your response, but it seems contradictory. You say Sundance is a no-haggle dealer, yet now is the time to get a no-inflated spa price. So are you saying that a dealer might give me an inflated price, and I would be stuck with that - pay it or buy elsewhere? They rather rather have a customer walk away then pay a fair price?
I *am* looking to build a relationship with a dealer - service, chems, etc, so rather than paying an inflated price here, or a lower price further away just to get the price, I would probably buy a different brand spa that I thought was a fair price.
I truely appreciate everyones input.
~Mary
First off Mary I was reffering to the dealership I work for not to Sundance Spasas being a no haggle dealer. The base price is the base price there is no room on that. What I said was that with all the shows and the Big E, you are going to get the best package offered with the spa.
Good luck in your search for the perfect Spa to suit your needs.
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They rather rather have a customer walk away then pay a fair price?
There are dealers who would rather lose your sale than set a precedent.
What is a "fair" price?
Perhaps one reason prices change so much is based on the price of doing business. The dealer may require a certain amount of profit if it has been a slow year or is costs were up or if little Janey needs a new set of braces (or, frankly, if he just wants to buy that new BMW).
The cost of a spa, to a dealer is:
cost from factory + cost of building + cost of ads + cost of salesmen + cost of repairmen + cost of insurance + blahblahblah
now, those other costs are spread out among number of tubs sold, but your dealer needs to make a certain profit just to pay the bills. Your dealer have flashy neon, 4 salespeople, and 8 tubs wet and ready to go? You foot the bill for that when you buy the tub.
As for precedent:
I decided to buy a spa because my sister had one for years and my friend got one. What did I do when I started looking? Asked what they paid for theirs. I would never go into a store and pay *less* than my friends paid for a spa. Given that a good bit of the industry, I imagine, is word of mouth, most dealers would rather lose a sale than have 10 friends of yours coming in an demanding the same cut-rate price that he or she would have given you.
Of course, I'm not a dealer, and that's just a theory.
-Ed
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Okay, this is my last post on this subject. We seem to be arguing apples and oranges.
Mendocino - Nice move arguing a single brand against an entire industry. Unless you are ready to say that there are thousands of Hot Springs dealers nationwide.
When I mentioned conrad johnson, that was a single brand! I can rattle off at least 20 brands that sell equipment in that same price range. (sound familiar?)
There are over a thousand dealers nationwide that sell this equipment, much to your chagrin there is no M-O-N-O-P-O-L-Y. A consumer has a number of brands to choose from.
Costs in that industry are a cost of doing business. I told you that a dealer in Manhattan (highest cost of retail space per sq. ft. in the nation) uses the same list price as one in Peoria. Sorry, that's reality. Notice what I didn't say! (hin't - they don't necessarily sell for the same price in both states. The MSRP is not the out the door price (but you knew that already, didn't you?))
Stuart - Why do you insist on referencng big box electronic stores? I never did. Also when did I question the 3% market share? What I said was that audio dealers would die to have that share! Industry average is less than 1% penetration. How would you like to live with this stat?
All I'm trying to do is get dealers to understand that their business is no different than any other "boutique" luxury business. I gave one example (high end audio) that has almost identical problems (some less, some worse) and yet somwhow manages to survice with MSRPs. With a little time I could dig up data on others.
(Motorcycles and boats come to mind - hey Mendocino, now many Harleys do you think go out the door in January north of the Mason Dixon? And yet they stay open, reality, what a concept!)
It seems to me that if you really want to "improve the industry" then having manufacturers set and publish MSRPs is a good first step. Then, since you don't want to be compare to the auto industry, STOP PRICING LIKE THEM! Set a price and stick to it!
MaryM - Yep, you opened a real worm can! But dealer cost is between the dealer and the manufacturer. If you want to know what a spa really costs, open up a store!
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BobRex,
Maybe we're misunderstanding one another, when I say that our products are only in 3% of the population, I mean ALL spas not specific types or brands! Surely you aren't trying to say the same thing for the audio industry? That is the point I'm trying to make, look at how much of the population owns audio devices/equipment compared to spas (or autos for that matter).
I'm not disagreeing with you that it would be great to have standardized “list price” book for everyone in addition to valuating used spas, I’m telling you that until the industry grows to the size of industries your talking about it isn’t going to happen. I’m also telling you as a dealer that when that day comes I will be making a lot more margin across the board because it will neuter some of the negotiation ability the customer has now. I can’t wait for the day when I can say to a customer “Sir, I giving you this at 5% over invoice what more could you ask?” yet still be making full margin! It would also lend to some “manufacture rebates” that I don’t have to participate in – it will all be at list. BTW, I sell spas anywhere from 20% to 40% below the MSRP depending on the model and situation (i.e. delivery, accessories, availability and manufacture participation) that Marquis and D1 give me as a guideline. MAXX does not set an MSRP as far as I know….
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And this is where the confusion lies. When I talk about the high end audio industry, I'm not talking about the general audio industry. I'm referring to a specific subset of that industry with specialist dealers, specialist manufacturers, unique products, and a whole different support structure. The typical consumer has a reciever and a pair of bookshelf speakers that were bought from a big box store like best buy or even Tweeters (there's a west coast equivalent, but I don't know what it is off the top.) (Oh, and the system sounds like crap, too!) I'm talking a 5 watt tube amplifier that sells for $90,000. That's right, 90K. How about a 10K turntable hooked to a 5K phonostage, connected to that 7K cj linestage.... A completely different animal. The confusion exists exactly because of that <1% market penetration. The majority of consumers don't even know this stuff exists! I know doctors that spend lot's of time with real music that aren't aware of this stuff. Ironically, Fabio is aware :-/ For a quick understanding, take a look at the follwoing web sites :
www.enjoythemusic.com
www.soundstage.com
www.stereophile.com
www.stereotimes.com
This will at least give you an inkling of what I'm talking about.
Tell you what, tell me where you are located and I'll point you to a local store. Hell, it could be across the street and you wouldn't even know about it ;)
It might be worth the education ;D
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Bob;
I see your point with the specialty dealers. The industry is much more mature than the hottub industry. This might explain the stability in pricing.
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So many replys for this "here it is again" topic. :(
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To summerize; you want to know dealer costs---- go get your own store and go into debt for as long as most owners have to. The concept that people need to know costs of these items baffles me. Do these same people ask cost of every item they purchase?
I'm sorry, but this question in itself says that the consumer is entitled to dictate costs which is barbaric. I’m all for taking a good look at your financial portfolio prior to setting your price for the spa instead.
And I haven't even touched on the "what makes you so special" aspect of that question.
Oy vay ::)
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Education+Trust=Value
This seems like a good formula to purchase any product. the salesperson has to know the product (many don't or want to spend the time that it takes to educate), this gains trust from the customer and will give the customer the ability to determine value. If the customer doesn't see the value, then the price doesn't matter.
As a dealer, I would agree with stuart. I would love to charge $50 over invoice which would allow me to gain more profit. This industry is along ways away from this issue and many others which help us.
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wow-wee!
Bubbles may I suggest you take a nice relaxing soak in your tub?
Though the question has ignited the monthly polemic, the original question was not as you suggest.
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come on bubbles, you can join me in mine. I've also been told to soak more as my rantings and ravings suggest.
It's nice that we have both sides of the transaction represented here. The dealers have interest to protect and the consumer wants to know they're not getting ripped off. Ahhh, but what is the solution???
Alot of it has to come down to plain trust. When I shopped around, I could tell right away who the straight shooters were and who the "salesmen" were. When I dealt with the "salesmen", I would immediately lose interest in his spa, no matter how much I liked it, just feeling that this guy was only talking to me for one reason, to get as much out of me as he could. There's too much competition out there for me to even bother with the haggle, so I kept looking. I don't believe I am the only one who can tell the difference between the 2 kinds of dealers, am I?
When/if you do find a spa you like and the dealer talks to you straight, (doesn't offer a sale that's only good till tommorrow, doesn't try to haggle the extras that go with the spa - stairs, cover, etc), and who seems to know alot about his product, that's the guy you want to do business with. Especially if he services his product himself. Haggle him though, don't just accept first price, but also don't expect him to drop another grand to get the sale.
Also, as has been said before, just ask here. Tell us the price you've been offered by so and so, and somebody here is bound to have the same model and will be happy to relate his cost to you.
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And this is where the confusion lies. When I talk about the high end audio industry, I'm not talking about the general audio industry. I'm referring to a specific subset of that industry with specialist dealers, specialist manufacturers, unique products, and a whole different support structure.
You try to separate out the rating system, saturation and knowledge of an entire industry with just one portion of it. Just because these items are on the high end of technology in the audio field doesn't change the saturation level of the field. The audio industry is still 90% saturated as whole. I could ask the average consumer what a stereo stylus is and they would know yet if I ask them what Di-chlor is they would not! There is still a huge separation in age, information and public knowledge between these two industries.
The typical consumer has a receiver and a pair of bookshelf speakers that were bought from a big box store like best buy or even Tweeters (there's a west coast equivalent, but I don't know what it is off the top.) (Oh, and the system sounds like crap, too!) I'm talking a 5-watt tube amplifier that sells for $90,000. That's right, 90K. How about a 10K turntable hooked to a 5K phonostage, connected to that 7K cj linestage.... A completely different animal. The confusion exists exactly because of that <1% market penetration. The majority of consumers don't even know this stuff exists!
An aquatic fitness system is considered a spa and is encompassed by the spa industry yet costs as much as 40K to put in, I have consumers that come in to my store every day and say "is that huge thing a spa?" less than .01% of the population even know these exist even though they have frequented airline magazines for quite awhile. With this comparison I can refer back to the stylus vs. the ozone question, THERE IS NO COMPAIRISON! I know doctors that spend lot's of time with real music that aren't aware of this stuff. Ironically, Fabio is aware :-/ For a quick understanding, take a look at the follwoing web sites :
www.enjoythemusic.com
www.soundstage.com
www.stereophile.com
www.stereotimes.com
This will at least give you an inkling of what I'm talking about.
Before you get to high and mighty on yourself understand that many of us on these boards are "Techies" and have either shopped for or owned high end audio ourselves. I not new to the world of having to pay $1500 for a stylus (the one I really wanted was $3000 but I couldn't justify it!) or $1000 for a tone arm. Yes I'm kind of an audiophile myself and can appreciate where you are coming from but don't understand your myopic comparison of the two industries!
I will say again, if you think you can run a campaign to get the factories to set us up with a system that we don't have to discount as much because of the general knowledge of MSRP to the public it would be great and I implore you to do this! I would really be nice to have a buyer come in that was already over sticker shock and I didn't have to justify it so much before giving them a "discount" to buy. What would be even nicer is to be able to focus more on the product and less on the negotiation! When it comes down to price as the only issue and feature or quality is not that big of a deal then go to Home Depot, they have their prices online, or posted and guess what? They're non negotiable!
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What would be even nicer is to be able to focus more on the product and less on the negotiation!
That's easy...
determine the price you would sell for at the end of educated negotiations considering the extras that you might include. Put that price on the tub. Let the customers know you don't play the price game of other dealers; tell them to talk to other dealers and search the internet if need be. Now focus is on the product.
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I have said this before...but since when does knowing the cost of something determine its value....Before the Internet it was not the issue that it seems to be today....it also seems that people very much want to relate it to buying an auto, which in reality it is nothing like buying an auto….with the exception that it is a larger ticket purchase....I think the reason this is more difficult in some ways for people, is that unlike a car people are simply not familiar with a spa and it is the fear of the unknown that makes so many apprehensive….
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That's easy...
determine the price you would sell for at the end of educated negotiations considering the extras that you might include. Put that price on the tub. Let the customers know you don't play the price game of other dealers; tell them to talk to other dealers and search the internet if need be. Now focus is on the product.
Great in theory empolgation but in the many years that I have done this I have found that I lost more than a few sales to someone buying into a pitch of a less than reputable competitor telling them they would "knock a $$$$$ off TODAY!". ;) ;)
I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I liked you guys better but they took $4000 off of their $10,000 model" when in reality we were both selling a $6000 spa yet we weren't playing the game.
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Great in theory empolgation but in the many years that I have done this I have found that I lost more than a few sales to someone buying into a pitch of a less than reputable competitor telling them they would "knock a $$$$$ off TODAY!". ;) ;)
I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I liked you guys better but they took $4000 off of their $10,000 model" when in reality we were both selling a $6000 spa yet we weren't playing the game.
This is so true...and also so sad....that people buy into it...yet it happens all the time...
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Great in theory...
Yeah...I guess you're right stu and Mendo. :-/
I keep forgetting that I'm not the usual sheepish consumer. I just can't comprehend the imaginary savings. Value and price is what you pay which has nothing to do with how many thousands more it sold to some sucker for last week or that it's 240% off of MSPR or that you get a floating duckie and toenail clippers with your purchase.
Consumer intelligence continues to plummet as faith in TV and Media continues to rise. 'Common Sense' in reality is 'Endangered Sense'. So sad indeed... :'(
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Funny this whole series of posts reminds me of an old Bill Cosby skit.
Bill Cosby spent some time thinking about the pre-kickoff coin toss, and he thought it had been underutilized.
(Soundbite of performance Bill speaking)
"Now I was thinking that perhaps what would happen--suppose way back in history, if you had a referee before every war, and the guy called the toss? Let's go to the Revolutionary War. OK.
Captain Harbords of the British, this is Captain Soberds of the settlers. Captain Soberds of the settlers, this is Captain Harbords of the British. Call the toss there, British. British called head. It's tails. You lose the toss, British. The settlers win. What will you do, settlers?
All right. The settlers say that during the war they will wear any color clothes that they want to, shoot from behind the rocks, the trees and everywhere. Says that your team must wear red and march in a straight line." :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D
It sounds to me like the customer side of this debate would like us to be the British, march in a straight line and wear red while they hide in camouflage and pick us off.
I'm proud of the way I take care of my customers and the integrity with which we deal - although I know that there are many flim flam type dealers out there, I also know that there are many honest upfront ones that do business much like ourselves and yet get stereotyped with the others.
I hope that all of the debating hasn't overlooked Mary's reasoning behind why she posted the question, I understand her desire to simplify the shopping experience but the underlying questioning of dealers as whole that has come up is a viable debate.
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I'm proud of the way I take care of my customers and the integrity with which we deal - although I know that there are many flim flam type dealers out there, I also know that there are many honest upfront ones that do business much like ourselves and yet get stereotyped with the others.
I think there are more dealers like you, Stuart, than the scammers or other bad guys. This is because the marketplace tends to thin out the herd of those guys. You, and we, get a tremendous amount of referral biz and repeat buyers.
The rip-offs will be with us in any industry, and the stories love to circulate, but I think by-and-large most dealers of that ilk are easy to spot.
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I think there are more dealers like you, Stuart, than the scammers or other bad guys. This is because the marketplace tends to thin out the herd of those guys. You, and we, get a tremendous amount of referral biz and repeat buyers.
The rip-offs will be with us in any industry, and the stories love to circulate, but I think by-and-large most dealers of that ilk are easy to spot.
Hey buddy! Nice to see you back!
Thats my point exactly, there are more honest dealers out there then what is being eluded to with questions like the ones in this subject. I want people to realize that they can have a level of trust in their dealer and that they typically will not get "ripped off". Your company is a prime example of that.
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Hey buddy! Nice to see you back!
Thanks kind sir.
I have to actually BE IN THE STORE all this week, so I'll need something to do to pass the time
;D ;D :D ;) ;)
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That's where I've gone wrong - I had no idea purchasing a spa was to be a war ;)
It's so refreshing to know that there are such dealers as you guys - heck that's what makes this forum worthwhile, thank you. But for the record my spa shopping experience was not as you guys present.
There are roughly 10 dealers in my area of about a 40 miles:
2 I never visited as they carried brands I had no interest in
5 were recognized to be of said ilk (I'll spare the details)
1 was a great upstanding dealer as yourselves but their brand didn't work for me
1 deserves an Emmy for his performance and I will soon be seeing him in court as a result of his ilk
1 just recently opened and has been fantastic
That was my experience.
Now considering that so many sales are lost because a customer "'...liked you guys better but they took $4000 off of their $10,000 model' when in reality we were both selling a $6000 spa yet we weren't playing the game.", how many customers are likely to buy from the 6 of said ilk above?
Mary's question was very valid and evidence of a thinking consumer wanting to be educated before entering "...the fear of the unknown that makes so many apprehensive".
The benefit of this monthly topic is two fold. Shoppers get an opportunity to gain some education and readers of the forum can get an idea of what ilk each posting dealer falls into by their replies.
Yes, being insistant upon knowing dealer's cost is ridiculous, but more ridiculous is the bashing of a consumer asking questions to educate themselves...
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Yes, being insistant upon knowing dealer's cost is ridiculous, but more ridiculous is the bashing of a consumer asking questions to educate themselves...
Hopefully none of my posts came across as "bashing" the customer! My goal was to represent a dealer perspective and explain the impossibility of standardizing a price list in this industry.
I take it so seriously that when I drive by houses and see particular brands in their backyard, I question whether I ever had a chance to help that customer make a better decision and if so did I do my job?
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Hopefully none of my posts came across as "bashing" the customer! My goal was to represent a dealer perspective and explain the impossibility of standardizing a price list in this industry.
stuart, in no way do I feel as though you came across as such. My comment encompasses the totality of "debate" that has been offered up on this subject throughout the months. Your posts' intent here are clear - insightful, helpful and well presented. As usual, I am thankful for your input.
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Hey Stuart.......what brand do you sell? And where is your store?
Thanks ;)
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I would say that on this forum there is a large group of diverse dealers who regularly contribute many positive, well-grounded comments and encouragement to people who are at various stages of the Hot Tub/Spa Experience. I believe the comments made on this site are so helpful to new hot tub/spa shoppers that I've provided a link for them to get to this forum by visiting our store's website. I hope this forum continues to be a helpful tool for everybody interested in hot tub information and advice.
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stuart, in no way do I feel as though you came across as such. My comment encompasses the totality of "debate" that has been offered up on this subject throughout the months. Your posts' intent here are clear - insightful, helpful and well presented. As usual, I am thankful for your input.
I too hope that none of my posts were taken negatively. It is easy to get your back up when some posters don't seem to get it. I did start my own post "want to know delaer cost" that in hind-sight was quite sarcastic. It is frustrating at times as a dealer that choeses to go with "integrity pricing" and get lumped in with the "$10000 for $5000" group. I applaud Stuart for his vigilence in defending his view without crossing the line of consumer bashing, I just hope I did not cross it.
HTMan