Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: TALKCalgary.com on September 17, 2004, 08:07:53 pm
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In a recent thread on this board the question was asked "should Beachcombers have a sealed base to protect against pests and mould getting into the foam insulation".
In a reply to this question "ebirrane" had this to say:
"Ants will not nest in ground-contact rated lumber. Nor will mould house in it. Ground contact lumber is called ground contact lumber for a reason. "
So then, is it worth nailing a piece of ground treated plywood to the base of my Beachcomber? And if so, why don't beachcomber do this? To find out I called Beachcomber today and this is what they had to say. "We are aware of a few instances where ants have made nests in some of our spas, but most people didn't mind since they do no damage to the spa". Personally I would mind sharing my new spa with a few thousand ants. But perhaps that is just me :-)
I also asked about servicing Beachcomber spas in the event of a leak. They said that "leaks only become a problem as our spas get older. In which case, fixing them is only an issue if the leak is in the main enclosure" When I asked why they said "this is due mainly to difficulties in accessing the inside of our spa housings and then having to remove and replace the foam insulation.
I must say, I am impressed by Beachcombers honesty, but remain a little concerned about there construction methods. When I asked why they did not provide access panels like other manufactures, they said that. "We are unaware of any manufactures who do this". Then after a short pause they said "What would be the point anyway, if you took of the side you would still have to dig through the insulation" Not if the tub was not fully foamed I said. "but then how would it retain it's heat" they said.
The conversation was concluded with Beachcomber saying that they had been building spas this way for many years now and selling them to thousands of satisfied customers across the globe. Well perhaps they have. But times change. New construction methods have evolved and customers expectations changed. True, there was a time when people were content to sit in a barrel of hot water and call it a spa. But that time has long since gone and with the exception of a few nostalgia lovers so have those buyers. I don't doubt that Beachcomber build a good spa, (after all I am buying one myself). But that doesn't mean that they can't move with the times or perhaps make a good thing even better. :D
Steve K
PS. Our own Beachcomber 750 arrives tomorrow :) :) :)
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Hi Steve,
Your post is so interesting to me...in that you seem to question things that would seem to be of reasonable importnace and yet you still choose to go with Beachcomber.....I was wondering what the reasons in the end that lead you to purchase....I assume they must be of greater weight than the questions you raise....
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Thanks for your post. It helped a great deal in clearing up some issues I have with Beachcomber. I also think Beachcomber is an excellent well built tub with the exception of not having removable panels. I can only hope that Beachcomber rectifies this by adding this servicability to their new models. I won't be purchasing untill next spring. Jacuzzi, Sundance, and most of the other full-foam tubs I looked at provide access panels all around. Even if you remove these panels and face a wall of foam, it still has to be much easier, and considerably less expensive, than having to flip the entire unit over for repairs. This is no small issue in my mind. With all these informational forums and other sources available online, for no matter what interests you, people in general are becoming more informed and discerning. You would think manufacturers would key in on this and be interested in building a better product to gain the upper hand and to remain competitive. I'll be first in line to purchase a Beachcomber (530 model) if this servicability issue is improved. But without providing for reasonable access, (less costly servicing) I'll have to look elsewhere.
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The questions to ask is when do leaks occur and where. Is it possible that the leak will happen 10 years down the line and you never had problems before? Or did it leak in the Protec step where it's easily (relative) fixed.
Whenever you buy things, electronics, cars, houses and spas - they will eventually break. If it gives years of service and enjoyment and it costs $300 to fix 8 years out and you never put a penny into it repair wise, was it a wrong choice? I drove a 1988 Honda Civic until last November when it died; it served it's purpose and I didn't put a lot of money into it in all those years I owned it.
As consumers and I will assume those who question about quality and serviceability of spas are consumers, you and I can't answer the almighty question as to how reliable that hot tub is - the service people here can. I have not read anything bad about Beachcomber or many other brands for that matter so it shouldn't be of too much concern. IF you read bad things about a tub, then you should reconsider.
Yes, you may be handy (I repair medical equipment) but you have to ask yourself as a SPA OWNER - am I going to wrestle that thing and repair it myself or am I going to pay a professional to do it. I will tell you, yes I will tackle the heater, circuit board and sensors and no I'm not going to wrestle a 700 lb, 8'x8' beast (the beast will win). That $300 is well worth that professional who has repaired 100's of them will fix it quicker (and hopefully in less pain afterward) than I would.
Interesting true story. As I go shopping for a tub I ask A LOT of questions - one that I asked was if the tub is going on a deck 48" high is that going to be a problem - one dealer said "you're going to need extra people to put it up that high so it'll cost you $$$ more unless you can round up some buddies"; another dealer said "no - my guys do this for a living, we put that thing in the back of a truck thats about that height. We'll tip it off the truck when we get to your house and they'll tip it up onto the deck". Now I wasn't talking about a 2 person vs 8 person tubs, they were comparable in size. So that forklift story may just be that - a story!
Actually Beachcomber is one of the brands I'm considering to purchase, the other is Emerald. Both get good feedback and seem to be well constructed.
Ants get into everything (look at houses), I had a hard wired swimming pool timer that was "closed" to the elements. Every summer I would open it up and find 1000's of ants inside - obviously it wasn't as closed as I thought and neither is any spa. If you bought the Protec it has openings in the front for air, ants can get in there. If a spa has removable sides, ants can get in there too.
I'm sorry for being too long winded but I think as consumers we worry about things that may not matter. I say to Steve K. - don't worry, you bought a quality product that will probably last years without problems so go enjoy spatopia! ( I'm jealous) :)
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Fact: Beachcomber will not spend $1 to improve/re-engineer their product. I met with the owner of Beachcomber and made many recommendations including improved jet placement. Did anyone notice that other than one seat in most 7 series models, the jets are all on the spine? Is there a thrapeutic benefit to massaging the spine? I do not beleive so. Does it make more sense to massage the muscles on either side of the spine? Hmm, ya that does.
Just my 2 cents. Why are Beachcomber customers paying $500+ more this year than last year for the same model?
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FYI: most spas will have a price increase this year due to among, but not limited to, these factors. Increae in the cost of oil, this causes a trickle down effect as it effects everything about and associated with the pool and spa industry (not to mention our way of life), cost of health insurance, and homeland security (god that must make importing MAAX spas, beachcomber spas, and arctic spas a tad more expensive to get states side, not to mention the delays in getting them here. B/c lord knows it affects the time it takes us to get our spa & pool care products from our distributor!). Just my 2 cents!
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Hi Steve,
Your post is so interesting to me...in that you seem to question things that would seem to be of reasonable importnace and yet you still choose to go with Beachcomber.....I was wondering what the reasons in the end that lead you to purchase....I assume they must be of greater weight than the questions you raise....
Hi Mendocino101
In answer to your question. Yes, I did (and still do) have a number of questions and concerns about Beachcomber. But to be fair, I had questions and concerns about every manufacturer I researched. The fact is, that as you correctly surmised, for me, the benefits provided by the Beachcomber 750 coupled to outstanding support from our local dealer far out weighed the negative points.
In order that I may give something back to this forum I will try and write a full review of the 750 and my reasons for choosing it over the next few days.
Steve K
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Hi Talk
I used to sell Beachcomber here in the UK and I do beleive that one of their faults is the lack of protection to the base and insulation.
I was called out to a 550x that was making strange noises and when we emptied it out and put it on its side we were all amazed to find large holes and cavitys caused by mice ! then they started appearing and at least 6 ran off into the grass ! There was no actual damage to the pipework or wireing but I am sure it would have caused a problem if left . We coveed the base with a sheet of 1/8" PVC.
Its very wet here in England and I am not convinced that the wood floor beams are a good idea ... should be ok in Canada though.
As for leaks .... I don't think I should even comment.
Steve told me to let it go ... and I will try !!!
The 750 is a great tub and I hope you enjoy.... ::)
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Hi Pooldevil
Thanks for your feedback, it's good to know that I am not alone in seeing the shortfalls of Beachcomber reluctance to protect their customers investments by installing a suitable base.
Our dealer has now started installing bases on "all" Beachcombers at their own expence. It's sad however that Beachcomber just will not listen to their customers or dealers.
Pooldevil, I looked back over some of your older postings. If "three out of five of the tubs in your showroom leaked", I feel it is disgusting that you "did not even receive an apology". On the other hand, you may have been the victim of some very bad luck. If Beachcomber's quality control was generally that poor, boards like this one would be full of people complaining. All the same, as I have said in the past, Beachcomber do seem to be very reluctant to make changes. Even ones that have been shown to be beneficial.
Just out of curiosity, had Beachcomber been more sympathetic to your problems would you still be selling them?
Steve K
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Just curious how a mouse can get in and start digging around? Tub weighs about 4000 pounds full, I know they aren't getting in the bottom. Pull the step away and their is some plumbing cut thru the wall, insulation is wrapped around the pvc so tight ,you can't jamb a knive past it. As far as service, I had the jets pop out a few times problem, dealer offered to get me a new tub, I asked for some more jets before it got to that and it has been fine.
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Thanks for your feedback, it's good to know that I am not alone in seeing the shortfalls of Beachcomber reluctance to protect their customers investments by installing a suitable base.
Personally, I think you should cancel your order Steve. I've never read so much crap from someone who purchased a particular model and whined about it so much prior to even getting it? ??? I don't feel one bit sorry for you as these questions/concerns [though somewhat flippant] of yours should have been made clear to you or addressed prior to the purchase. If they were, what's your point? If not, cancel. I’m sure you will be going out of your way to find more faults once the tub eventually gets there contrived or not.
I’m wondering how you feel you are perceived on this forum about purchasing a product and coming up with all of these horrendous faults after researching it? Are you are poor shopper or do you just prefer to be a pessimist? Let it arrive and then blast the company at least. It will give you far more credibility. Am I the only one who's tired of the sniveling from someone who doesn't even have their tub yet? ???
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Bubbles
I am not blasting Beachcomber just pointing out some of the shortfalls, such as Beachcombers reluctance to install a suitable base. By the way, this is something which our dealer feels is SO important they are doing this a retro fit to ALL the beachcombers they sell!
The idea of this forum is for people to share information. The good, the bad and the ugly. The Beachcomber 750 is a good spa, that’s why I am buying one. But Beachcombers do have drawbacks. It’s up to individuals to weigh the good points of any product against the bad points.
Steve K
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How many tubs use a plastic base?
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Coleman, Dimension1, Sundance, Arctic, Elite all have plastic bottoms. Would anyone else like to add to my list? I wasn't sure about Sundance, I just heard that from a potential customer.
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Steve K,
Thanks again for your post, that I personally found informative. I agree that your concern about the Beachcomber not having a suitable base, and my concern with Beachcomber not providing removable skirting is a legitimate concern. Most of these posts, including yours, come across to me as being constructive rather than bashing. In my shopping for a tub, I'm finding out that the more research I do, the more I realize that compromise will come into play when I decide what to purchase. It seems to me that the perfect hot tub just doesn't exist. Anyhow, I think that many of these posts indicate that Beachcomber produces a good product, but like with all other brands has some shortcomings. Nothing unusual there.
SteveL
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Coleman, Dimension1, Sundance, Arctic, Elite all have plastic bottoms. Would anyone else like to add to my list? I wasn't sure about Sundance, I just heard that from a potential customer.
Marquis and Coleman use a plastic base, Arctic (as far as I know) is using a fiberglass base. Elite uses a sheet of "coreplas" on the bottom and I believe D1 and Sundance use a "sheet" of plastic on the bottom.
There is a big difference between an enclosed plastic base and a sheet of plastic tacked to base.
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Steve K,
Thanks again for your post, that I personally found informative. I agree that your concern about the Beachcomber not having a suitable base, and my concern with Beachcomber not providing removable skirting is a legitimate concern. Most of these posts, including yours, come across to me as being constructive rather than bashing. In my shopping for a tub, I'm finding out that the more research I do, the more I realize that compromise will come into play when I decide what to purchase. It seems to me that the perfect hot tub just doesn't exist. Anyhow, I think that many of these posts indicate that Beachcomber produces a good product, but like with all other brands has some shortcomings. Nothing unusual there.
SteveL
Thanks to everyone who found my post informative. As I said before, that was the idea, not to bash Beachcomber.
For me, (and by the looks of it, others as well) Beachcombers lack of access, and an open and unprotected base are concerns. In my case however, the base issue was rectified by our dealer installing a treated ply wood base. This is something they have taken upon themselves to do with all Beachcombers. As for the lack of access, well the chance that we “could” experience a leak 5 years down the road when the warrantee expires on our spar was far outweighed by the comfort level of the Beachcomber 750.
Perhaps Bubbles has missed my point. But having read his other posts I think “the point” is not what this guy is missing. In any event we are still looking forward to taking delivery on our 750, which by the way should have been yesterday, but that’s another story ;D
Steve K
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Hi Guys
One of the questions here was how did the mice get in ?
Well there was just enough room between the paving it had been sited on .... I also had another one that was on a gravel base. ???
Bad luck had nothing to do with the leaks .... I have been in the industry for over 30 years and I know a lot of other dealers who have had the same problems ! You guys in the states should be ok as I have it on good authority that this was a european problem , caused by the need for overproduction and a lack of time to wet test before shipping ! Would I have stuck with Beachcomber ? Well I was the first to take on their product for my area , and within 6 months of finding a showroom and setting up they set up two more dealers within 10 miles ! one just a mile away !
We had our own Bermuda Triangle - where prices disapear !!!
To be honest this was not all Beachcombers fault ... they ship to the UK distributor - SCP and then they set up dealers ....
but they must have known what was going on.
If you think about it ... every time they set up a new dealer , they get to sell them 5 display tubs ... not bad if you can get a dealer a month .
Then they shut them down and set up another ! (5 more tubs !)
Stick with Beachcomber .... NO WAY !
Enough said >:(
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In my case however, the base issue was rectified by our dealer installing a treated ply wood base.
Hi Steve,
Apparently, I started some of this with my ground contact lumber statement. Just find out how the plywood was treated. Pressure treated comes in several "grades", ground-contact is pretty good (sufficient for a tub, in my opinion) There is also salt-water contact grading which is a little sturdier.
Alot of pressure treated wood is not graded for ground contact, so be careful.
Also, I don't know much about beachcomber construction. I assume they use ground-contact lumber and was simply making the point that an ABS base or other non-wood material is *not* required to prevent base rot.
I was more alarmed by your initial post in this thread regarding how lackadaisical they seemed to be to your questions. Wow.
-Ed
ps. Mice can also chew through 1/8" plastic.
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Marquis and Coleman use a plastic base, Arctic (as far as I know) is using a fiberglass base. Elite uses a sheet of "coreplas" on the bottom and I believe D1 and Sundance use a "sheet" of plastic on the bottom.
There is a big difference between an enclosed plastic base and a sheet of plastic tacked to base.
My friend owns a Sundance and it cane with some sort of hard plastic base on it. When the installers put the tub on the slab and started scooting it there was some damage done to the base. I can't remember if they removed the base and just lef tthe tub baseless or if they kept it there, but with some holes scraped in it. I'll try and find out.
So I'm pretty sure Sundance doesn't use a plastic "sheet" but I don't think they use something super thick.
-Ed
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Coleman, Dimension1, Sundance, Arctic, Elite all have plastic bottoms. Would anyone else like to add to my list?
Master Spas......
8)
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I'm pretty sure that Sundance uses only a plastic sheet and not an enclosed base.
WSD,
No disrespect but, doesn't Master use a kind of light rubber wrap? I saw them unloading a spa at a show and it was torn in the corners by the metal frame so I went and looked. I'm sure it was rubber (Looked kinda like a pond liner) not plastic, did they change that?
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Hey, TALKCalgary, did you visit the Jacuzzi Premium Dealer in Calgary? From what you have posted here, it doesn't look like you did. If you had checked them out, you would have seen a product built by a company that has addressed all of your concerns already. By the way, if you think that a piece of pressure treated plywood is going to prevent rodents and insects from getting into your Hot Tub, then I commend Beachcomber for the outstanding sales job they've done on you! Why would you purchase a product that you have concerns about when there are products that have already built a better machine? Good Luck and make sure you don't visit your local Jacuzzi dealer unless you are prepared to see a Spa that is built the way you think Beachcomber should start building theirs.
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Geez Jordy...I thought every other manufacturer was the BEST. Why don't you no brain sales guys stop the BS already. I find it childish the way some have to promote their spas. Are you really THAT desperate for sales down there?
It's high time we start cleaning up this dirty industry and it's perpetuated by the garbage we all have been exposed to on this site lately. It's turned into a circus here of salespeople pushing their products like street corner vendors and I for one am getting sick of it.
Steve
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Our tub has some type of plastic sheet underneath.
It's not flimsy plastic like poly, it's some type of reinforced plastic.
Brewman
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I'm pretty sure that Sundance uses only a plastic sheet and not an enclosed base.
WSD,
No disrespect but, doesn't Master use a kind of light rubber wrap? I saw them unloading a spa at a show and it was torn in the corners by the metal frame so I went and looked. I'm sure it was rubber (Looked kinda like a pond liner) not plastic, did they change that?
It is a plastic sheet. We drilled through it to bring the electrical service in from underneath the tub. Don't know if they changed it or what--I just know what mine is like.
BTW, the plastic enclosed bottom was a deal maker/breaker item for me when I was considering our spa purchase.
8)
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Tazman,
If I am not mistaken the material is ABS plastic. When shopping my local Hot Springs dealer, that was the same stuff that they use for the shell of the spa (slighlty different process I'm sure). The salesman said it was the same stuff they make football helmets out of.
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It is a plastic sheet. We drilled through it to bring the electrical service in from underneath the tub. Don't know if they changed it or what--I just know what mine is like.
BTW, the plastic enclosed bottom was a deal maker/breaker item for me when I was considering our spa purchase.
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So yours is not really an enclosed base but a sheet tacked to the bottom?
I just went and looked again this weekend and it was an enclosed base but it was the lighter rubber kind of like a tire tube. Sounds like you got the older heavier stuff that is much better IMO.
Thanks for the follow up!
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So yours is not really an enclosed base but a sheet tacked to the bottom?
I'm not sure I see a major difference between a plastic sheet attached to the bottom and an enclosed base. I believe mine would be more like an enclosed base as it is upturned on the edges (I think). I won't be able to pull a panel and check tonight as I won't be home until well after dark but I'll try to remember to look at it tomorrow after work and let you know. Or maybe a picture is worth a thousand words--I'll post what I see for you.
8)
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If you put the spa on a concrete pad, would mice still be able to get in?
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I'm not sure I see a major difference between a plastic sheet attached to the bottom and an enclosed base. I believe mine would be more like an enclosed base as it is upturned on the edges (I think). I won't be able to pull a panel and check tonight as I won't be home until well after dark but I'll try to remember to look at it tomorrow after work and let you know. Or maybe a picture is worth a thousand words--I'll post what I see for you.
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The upturned pan will not allow for seepage into the cavity and obviously encloses the entire base of the spa better. If that is what you have it's great. I haven't ever seen that on a Master (with plastic) and wonder why they went away from it. You might be right though it may not make much difference as long as they are using a good grade of galvanized steel on the base to prevent rust. I'm also going to do some more research on what kind of steel that is as I have read many posts that claim it as substandard.
My interest is peaked now and I really want to understand how they do it.
It would be great if you’d post the pictures! I haven't figured out how to do that yet!
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This post is really interesting. For several reasons. All of the dealers that we visited made some mention or other about the strength of their base. Arctic flipped one on its side to show the pan (1/8 to 1/4 inch thick) made of some polymer composite. The Hotsprings dealer showed us their product which was more like a poured resin.
Now I'm doubting what I remember from the Sundance dealers and the others. I went through my notes (yes my wife thinks I'm nuts when I do this for this forum) but could not find any mention of the Sundance base, but I thought for sure that it was a poured resin.
Tomorrow morn I'm going to go to my dealer and look for myself.
I should get a life! LOL ;D
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Steve-Take a Pill!!! I responded to TALKCalgary's question in a sarcastic manner because I really don't understand the rationale behind his purchasing decision at all. I'm guessing that his concern about the lack of protection on the underside of a Beachcomber was outweighed by the other aspects of the tub that he enjoyed. As you know, I sold Beachcomber for years in Calgary and I was also critical of this weakness in the design. You and I have both seen firsthand the effects that the weather, rodents and insects have on a tub with an exposed base. I am not some braindead salesman nor am I "hard up for sales". I hope that you have an opportunity to visit when you are in Calgary next time. If you do, I'm sure that you will perhaps leave with a somewhat different opinion. Sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings by expressing my opinion in the manner I did.
Truly,
Darren J.
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Taz,
Check out the photos at
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/brdhd/album?.dir=e8c7
Sorry the light wasn't better--I'll try to replace the photos of the 'innards' during the middle-of-the-day light this weekend. The pan (and it is indeed a pan) is definitely a hard plastic. Sorry to disappoint the metal frame naysayers regarding rivets but there are no rivets--only sheet metal screws. No signs of rust yet, though it's only been installed since July. The photo which highlights the circ pump shows the rubber motor mounts. This is the case for each motor. Also, you can get a good look at the "flimsy" panels--certainly properly engineered for the application, IMHO. Anyway, I'm happy so I guess that's what counts the most!
8)
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Taz,
Check out the photos at
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/brdhd/album?.dir=e8c7
Sorry the light wasn't better--I'll try to replace the photos of the 'innards' during the middle-of-the-day light this weekend. The pan (and it is indeed a pan) is definitely a hard plastic. Sorry to disappoint the metal frame naysayers regarding rivets but there are no rivets--only sheet metal screws. No signs of rust yet, though it's only been installed since July. The photo which highlights the circ pump shows the rubber motor mounts. This is the case for each motor. Also, you can get a good look at the "flimsy" panels--certainly properly engineered for the application, IMHO. Anyway, I'm happy so I guess that's what counts the most!
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Hey Windy!
Thanks, I think that is the same material I saw but it felt like a rubber material (it was pretty flexible).
Spa looks great! Have you lost any of the Stainless escutcheons around the jets? They had some of those coming off at the show.
I've sat in the that spa, it really is pretty cool.
Did you have people telling you rivets were bad? I would think that rivets are less likely to deteriorate or come loose than screws (not yours of course!)? ;)
Do you have any idea what the little bit of extra foam around the pump unions I see is for? Maybe just some overspray? Then again it might be for vibration……
Last question, when you pull any of the other panels do they have a center support? If it were me I would go buy a couple of metal studs from Home Depot and just cut and screw them into the middle on each side. It certainly wouldn't hurt and might rigidize that whole spa cabinet and give better shell support for a longer life.
OK I lied, more questions, how do you like that alcove seat and which seat is your favorite?
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Have you lost any of the Stainless escutcheons around the jets? They had some of those coming off at the show.
Nope. The escutcheons have 4 very small tabs that are bent around on the larger jets. I have had all the jets out for cleaning except the smallest jets--couldn't get them out and haven't asked whether they come out or not yet. Don't know about their escutcheons.
Did you have people telling you rivets were bad?
There have been a few comments but that is old history in old threads that are best left alone. I just wanted to get the facts out about my spa which I assume is representative of other MS spas.
Do you have any idea what the little bit of extra foam around the pump unions I see is for? Maybe just some overspray? Then again it might be for vibration……
It looks like overspray but I'm not sure they didn't spray it on purpose.....they seem to have covered all the pipes with a layer of it. I haven't had the other panels off so I'm assuming they've done the same elsewhere.
Last question, when you pull any of the other panels do they have a center support?
Since I haven't pulled them, I don't know for sure but I would be surprised if they did have them. On second thought, looking down from the front panel, I don't remember seeing any. I'll not make any alterations--I figure they know what they are doing and time will tell. I'll either be an MS supporter for life or will find reasons to poo-poo'em.
OK I lied, more questions, how do you like that alcove seat and which seat is your favorite?
Absolutely love the alcove seat (Xtreme Therapy Seat--MS lingo). The massage you get on the outer thighs is terrific. The 2 whirlpool jets will rock your world if you so desire. What is not noticed are the 2 small jets down at the front of the seat--great Achilles tendon massage. I just got out of the tub after staring at the 1st quarter moon for about an hour and I did the same routine I usually do.....Xtreme seat for 15 min. or so, shoulder seat for about 10 or so, coffee seat (between the shoulder seat and lounger--so named because it is the shallowest therapy seat and perfect for drinking morning coffee) for 10 min or so, then the lounger for at least 15 min. and, after all jets cycle off, rest in the lounger 'suspended' in the quiet tub for at least 20 or so min., most times falling asleep for a quick cat nap or two. The only seat I rarely frequent is the cool down seat since I have my tub set around 96 degrees, I usually don't have to cool down.
BTW, if you haven't checked out the LSX review here at the review pages, I tried to give it a thorough going over.
Thanks for the kind words! Hope this helps....
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