Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: DJJ on December 06, 2019, 02:45:22 pm
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I just changed my water and am in the process of balancing things. I am having a hard time getting my PH and Alkalinity in the proper range. Every time I try to raise my Alkalinity, my PH goes up as well. If I try to lower my PH, my Alkalinity drops as well. I presently have a PH of 8.0 (high) and Alkalinity of 36(low). Can somebody please HELP! This is driving me batty. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
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Prioritize the alkalinity and the PH will follow.
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I just changed my water and am in the process of balancing things. I am having a hard time getting my PH and Alkalinity in the proper range. Every time I try to raise my Alkalinity, my PH goes up as well. If I try to lower my PH, my Alkalinity drops as well. I presently have a PH of 8.0 (high) and Alkalinity of 36(low). Can somebody please HELP! This is driving me batty. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
Add PH Up into your tub...They pull on each other so if you keep raising the PH, it will force the alkalinity up, while eventually pulling PH down. It's a fine balancing act.
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So I have 2 conflicting ideas. Raise the Alkalinity and the PH will follow. Raise the PH and the Alkalinity will follow. Hmmmm.
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I'm having the same problem. My alkalinity starts out low, 25ppm, with a pH in the high 6's. Once I get alk to 80+ppm the pH shoots to 8.6 - 8.8 and stays there. Powder pH down doesn't bring it down. I'm on well water which could have something to do with it from what I read. Also, when adding bromine, I get green scum at the water line which I also read indicates the bromine is reacting with metals in the water. I also know I have hard water b/c the builder had to install a water softener based on the well report. Outside hose bibs do not get softened water fed to them.
I just drained the tub today and started over, refilling using a 1 micron hose attachment filter. I've read of other having success with this method. Did a quick alkalinity test of the filtered water, and it read ~25ppm so no difference starting out, but hopefully the filter nabbed whatever was spiking the pH when the alk increaser hits.
For reference, I'm using Spa Guard chemicals b/c thats what the shop near me sells.
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They kinda go hand in hand. Do some googling. I would try alkalinity first. Experiment without mirco-managing.
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Always balance alkalinity first.
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We got a new Grandee this past spring. At first I tried to balance both PH and Alk perfectly but it always failed. I now focus on keeping PH where it needs to be and don't worry about Alk. Alk seems to stay about where it need to be but not perfect. If I try to fine tune Alk after getting PH set, it messes up PH so I stopped trying. Seems to work well. Once a month or so I check PH and bring PH back in check and I'm good.
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So I have 2 conflicting ideas. Raise the Alkalinity and the PH will follow. Raise the PH and the Alkalinity will follow. Hmmmm.
Sorry, I meant to say add PH Down. Although if your PH is high and your alkaline is low, they should pull each other and within a few days be much closer to each other than before...If not though, I would definitely add a cup of PH Down
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We got a new Grandee this past spring. At first I tried to balance both PH and Alk perfectly but it always failed. I now focus on keeping PH where it needs to be and don't worry about Alk. Alk seems to stay about where it need to be but not perfect. If I try to fine tune Alk after getting PH set, it messes up PH so I stopped trying. Seems to work well. Once a month or so I check PH and bring PH back in check and I'm good.
I've got a new 2019 Hotspring Highlife and my dealer's care routine only has me checking the PH once a month, adding baking soda as needed to raise PH (it will lower on it's own). Aside from Dichlor 56 after a soak and cleaning the filters there's no other maintenance in my care plan.
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Yea...it's super easy. No need to overthink it.
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Not sure if this will help you or not. But on the off chance it helps *someone*, here it is.
I struggled with this problem for a long time. The issue seemed to be that, although the water would initially measure in the ideal range, with an appropriate level of alkalinity, the PH would eventually creep down over time. Ultimately, it was no longer possible to increase the PH without also screwing up the alkalinity readings. I started using the FreshWater brand PH Balance product with some modest success. But what I eventually discovered is that the chlorinating granules that I was adding (to supplement the salt-cell sanitation system) were producing cyanuric acid, and that this was lowering my PH, but not the alkalinity (for some reason). I was really having a hell of a time with it. Like you, I was being driven nuts.
However, when it came time to replace my ACE Salt Cell and I saw the price tag on that baby, I stumbled on the fix for all of this. I ended up buying a much less expensive salt cell (The Scepter) and that alone seems to have solved the problem. This cell seems to work much better than the original ACE cell - I haven't had to add chlorine in any form for a couple of months now (and I am in this thing every single morning and the water remains gin-clear). Once I get the PH settled after a water change/addition, everything else is fine and stays that way. I have had virtually no maintenance to do to keep the water perfectly clear.
The only battle is with phosphate/foam from skin-care products. I am spending part of the day tackling that. Wish me luck!
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I am still fighting a losing battle. Alkalinity-44/PH-7.9. I add Alkalinity Increaser. Alkalinity-59/PH-8.2. I add Alkalinity Increaser...… I am afraid to even check the water now. I'm sure my PH is up around 8.5. Once my Alkalinity is balanced, I will have to try and bring the PH down, which I am sure will lower my Alkalinity. I'm ready to light the spa on fire.
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Not sure if this will help you or not. But on the off chance it helps *someone*, here it is.
I struggled with this problem for a long time. The issue seemed to be that, although the water would initially measure in the ideal range, with an appropriate level of alkalinity, the PH would eventually creep down over time. Ultimately, it was no longer possible to increase the PH without also screwing up the alkalinity readings. I started using the FreshWater brand PH Balance product with some modest success. But what I eventually discovered is that the chlorinating granules that I was adding (to supplement the salt-cell sanitation system) were producing cyanuric acid, and that this was lowering my PH, but not the alkalinity (for some reason). I was really having a hell of a time with it. Like you, I was being driven nuts.
However, when it came time to replace my ACE Salt Cell and I saw the price tag on that baby, I stumbled on the fix for all of this. I ended up buying a much less expensive salt cell (The Scepter) and that alone seems to have solved the problem. This cell seems to work much better than the original ACE cell - I haven't had to add chlorine in any form for a couple of months now (and I am in this thing every single morning and the water remains gin-clear). Once I get the PH settled after a water change/addition, everything else is fine and stays that way. I have had virtually no maintenance to do to keep the water perfectly clear.
The only battle is with phosphate/foam from skin-care products. I am spending part of the day tackling that. Wish me luck!
Similar to your solution where the new cell produces pure chlorine liquid household bleach does much the same. Dichlor is what people normally use for supplemental chlorine and dichlor is made for pools that are subject to sunlight and sunlight depletes the stabilizer / acid that is added in. So in a hot tub a little stabilizers 50PPM is a good thing more than that is not. Liquid bleach has none. As far as I know there isn’t a granular product good for a hot tub without the added stabilizer.
I use dichlor watching my stabilizer number and when it reaches 50PPM I switch over to the cheaper bleach. Roughly 1 tablespoon dichlor = 1/3 cup bleach. With adding water etc when it hits 30PPM I switch back.
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Similar to your solution where the new cell produces pure chlorine liquid household bleach does much the same. Dichlor is what people normally use for supplemental chlorine and dichlor is made for pools that are subject to sunlight and sunlight depletes the stabilizer / acid that is added in. So in a hot tub a little stabilizers 50PPM is a good thing more than that is not. Liquid bleach has none. As far as I know there isn’t a granular product good for a hot tub without the added stabilizer.
I use dichlor watching my stabilizer number and when it reaches 50PPM I switch over to the cheaper bleach. Roughly 1 tablespoon dichlor = 1/3 cup bleach. With adding water etc when it hits 30PPM I switch back.
Since my spa is covered, stabilizer to prevent UV depletion doesn't seem to be of much help. In any event, I haven't noticed any ill effects from leaving it off entirely. And I noticed that the salt levels crept up slowly but surely when I was adding a small amount of household bleach every week. So I stopped doing that, too. These days, I add absolutely nothing and the water has been gin-clear for months. Perhaps my luck will run out, but so far, so good!
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Similar to your solution where the new cell produces pure chlorine liquid household bleach does much the same. Dichlor is what people normally use for supplemental chlorine and dichlor is made for pools that are subject to sunlight and sunlight depletes the stabilizer / acid that is added in. So in a hot tub a little stabilizers 50PPM is a good thing more than that is not. Liquid bleach has none. As far as I know there isn’t a granular product good for a hot tub without the added stabilizer.
I use dichlor watching my stabilizer number and when it reaches 50PPM I switch over to the cheaper bleach. Roughly 1 tablespoon dichlor = 1/3 cup bleach. With adding water etc when it hits 30PPM I switch back.
Since my spa is covered, stabilizer to prevent UV depletion doesn't seem to be of much help. In any event, I haven't noticed any ill effects from leaving it off entirely. And I noticed that the salt levels crept up slowly but surely when I was adding a small amount of household bleach every week. So I stopped doing that, too. These days, I add absolutely nothing and the water has been gin-clear for months. Perhaps my luck will run out, but so far, so good!
With salt gen I agree the need for stabilizer is lessened or not needed because the dosing is lower but constant. Stabilizer is needed to slow the action of the chlorine when you give it one big dose everyday or every other day. There will always be times like when you have a party and bather load goes way up the gen might not keep up or for shocking etc. With a salt gen unit I would think liquid bleach would be the thing to do.
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I don't really understand all this salt cell sanitation and household bleach talk. I must be doing something wrong. I don't use any of that.
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I don't really understand all this salt cell sanitation and household bleach talk. I must be doing something wrong. I don't use any of that.
Sorry the topic drifted as they do.
There are many ways to get the same end result, and it seems different people find different methods easy for them.
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I just use dichlor. I'm just really confused on all this water chemistry talk. My saga continues. I got the Alkalinity up to the appropriate level. PH spiked to 8.4. Added PH down. Got my PH down to 8.2 which is still way too high. Now my Alkalinity has dropped to 70. I will add more PH down. I'm sure my alkalinity will sink also. I will end up right back where I started. Low Alkalinity. High PH. This is just plain ridiculous. There has to be a better way. Does anybody want a free spa before I take an ax to it.?
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I've had my hot tub for 20 years and knew nothing when I first started..Read these easy instructions below..It might help clarify some things for you instead of being overwhelmed...Buy yourself a Taylor K-2006 water testing kit and don't use the strips as they aren't accurate enough and if necessary start with a fresh fill of water..
Water Balance
Water can be either Acidic, Balanced or Alkaline. If your water is not balanced, it could cause all kinds of problems. If it's too Acidic it could cause corrosion. If it's too Alkaline it could cause scaling. Both of which will reduce the effectiveness of your sanitizer. If your water is not balanced then your water is not safe for you, or your tub. So it's really critical to get this correct.
There are four main parameters to keeping your water balanced. Water Temperature, Calcium Hardness (CH), Total Alkalinity (TA) and Potens Hydrogen (pH). Assuming your water temp is around 100 degrees, we'll just focus on CH, TA and pH. The best way to test these is with a Drop Test kit, like the ones mentioned above. IMO Test Strips are just not accurate enough to test these, especially for a beginner.
PH: pH is the measure of acidity in your water. It's on a scale of 0 to 14, 7 being neutral. The human eye has a pH of 7.5, so the ideal range in Pools/Spas is 7.4-7.6 with a min of 7.2 and max of 7.8. However, and this is important, just because you have a pH of 7.5, doesn't mean your water is balanced. If your TA and/or Ch is too high, you could be forming scale in your tub. So it is very important to have balanced water along with an ideal pH.
Total Alkalinity: Alkalinity is a pH Buffer. High levels of TA will not allow pH to change from additions of acid or base. However, a high TA requires a low pH to have balanced water. On the other hand, very low levels of TA will allow the pH to change with very little acid. A very low TA level could cause your pH to drop to low levels, very fast with little acid. Also, the lower your TA, the higher your pH needs to be to have balanced water. So, as you can see, a very low TA can become very unstable.
However, pH will have a tendency to rise with aeration (i.e. use of jets and air), more so if your TA is high. Although, as long as you're not adding Acid (or anything with a lower pH) to your tub, the pH will not usually drop. Therefore, in hot tubs the problem is normally pH rise (or Drift), because of all the aeration. So, the trick is to get the TA high enough to not create an unstable situation, and low enough to not allow pH to rise too much.
Let me repeat the last sentence, because it's the single most important thing to keeping your water balanced. The key to having balanced water, without pH drift, is having the correct TA level. If you find your pH rises too high (>8.0) after using your tub, your TA is too high, and needs to be lowered. If you find your pH is too low and/or your water is continually acidic, your TA is too low and needs to be raised. By fine tuning your TA, you can get your pH perfectly balanced, that rarely needs adjustment.
SO, what's a good TA then? Because spas tend to have a lot of aeration from jets and because the water is hot, it is best to keep the TA low at around 50 ppm.
OK, how do we adjust TA then? If TA is too low, you just add Baking Soda to raise it. However, if TA is high, it's little more involved. You'll need Acid (Dry or Muriatic). Depending on how high your TA is will depend on how long it will take you. Plan on it taking around an hour to decrease TA by 100 ppm. So if your TA is 300 ppm, plan it taking around 2-3 hours. First, uncover your tub and turn on all your jets, air, blowers, waterfalls etc. Test your pH. When it's greater than 7.8, add enough acid to bring it down to 7.0. Keep aerating until your pH is 7.8 again (about 30 min), then add more acid and repeat. Every time you add acid you're lowering your pH and TA. When you get your TA tuned perfectly, your pH will rise to a level (i.e. ~7.6) and stop, then you know you're at your ideal TA level. If your pH is rising too high (>8.0), bring your TA down a little more. If your pH doesn't rise enough from aeration (after an hour or more), you over shot it and need to add a little Baking Soda to raise your TA. After a few days/weeks of monitoring it, you'll get your TA tuned perfectly. You may need to add a little Dry Acid once a week or two, but your water should be well balanced at that point.
I wouldn't go much below 50 ppm TA, because that could become unstable if you add any kind of acid. Also, if you have a high TA, above 100, you may need to add more acid in the beginning to get your pH down. Remember, TA is a pH buffer, so the higher the TA, the more acid you need to bring the pH down. It takes approximately 8 oz total of Dry Acid to bring TA down 100 ppm in a 350 Gal tub. However, the key is not to add too much acid all at once to bring your pH down under 7.0. That's why you should aerate in between adding acid.
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Thank you so much for the in depth post. I think that I have come to the conclusion that I will leave the Alkalinity at 30-40 if I can balance the PH. I just can’t seem to get both balanced at the same time. Also, I do have a Taylor Test Kit, so I know my readings are fairly accurate. Thanks again.
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Yes. I have moved from the 'chlorinating granules' to ordinary household bleach. Seems to do the trick just fine, and I rarely need to add any. For my typical use, the salt cell alone is sufficient to keep the water crystal clear - especially in the winter. So far, no evidence that I should change my routine. Fingers crossed.