Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: billymac on August 31, 2019, 11:04:58 am
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We've had our Hot Spring Grandee for a little over a month now and have been loving it.
I do have a couple of questions though for those who have one or know about care and feeding of their Freshwater salt system.
How often do you find yourselves adding chlorine granules? I understand this question is relative to use, but I find that even after fairly light use, say 2-3 people soaking for 20-30 minutes that with an output of say 5, the system doesn't always tend to keep up when testing with their freshwater test strips (test for both free and total). When I go to test it the next day close to 24 hours later, the test will show little to no color.
For example, even if I crank it up, or select the "boost" function (24 hour output of 10), after 5 or 6 soakers that even 24 hours+ later there will be no color change on the test strip.
All other water tests are showing in target range and the salt system status indicator is showing "ok" and always between the 9:45 - 12:00 green range on the dial. If we don't use it for a few days with all water properties in the target zone, the chlorine level holds, but as soon as we soak, it drops to a white color on the strip, even 1-2 days later.
I have no problem adding chlorine, but I want to make sure I don't maybe have something else going on.
Any general advice or guidance here is greatly appreciated.
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Hey, one other quick question! Any tips/tricks for water line cleaning while full? Nothing serious, but after a month of fairly heavy use I do have some buildup/hazing in certain areas that doesn't wipe off super easily.
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We have had our Caldera Niagara since June, and it has the same Freshwater salt system.
When it is just the two of us, the system works just fine, but we do shower or wipe down before we get in.
We have concluded it does not work up to par when there are more people. My family visited it, and then we had a small gathering of people where we really tested it. We had seven in at one time for about one hour. We set it on boost, and that just seemed to be a joke. We had to add quite a lot of additional chlorine to get all the gunk out. The PH ended up very high too, so we had super cloudy water, for the first time, after this gathering.
The majority of the time, we have very clear and lovely water, but I think we have learned now, boost is not all the salesperson said it was nor is the salt system. I find myself checking on it weekly even though I'm only supposed to have to check on it every ten days. I told my husband let's give it a year and reassess whether we want to keep it or move to another water care system.
After our cloudy water last week, I was going to write in here and see if anyone had anything to say about this freshwater system, as I was ready to get rid of it then.
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Also, for the two of us, we have been keeping it at a 7.
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Thanks Steph135,
Yeah, I'm just looking for some real world anecdotal advice. Smart enough to know there's a difference between sales/marketing and real world use, but wanted to make sure I didn't have something else going on with the system as I was hoping for a little better results. Love the feel of the water and we've had zero issues with the other water chemistry. Water is always crystal clear and inviting.
I do think it's kind of funny that in the "after each use" section of the laminated care guide they give you that it says, "Note-if you use your tub with a higher number of bathers than normal, add 1/4 scoop (scoop is 2 oz total) of Natural Chemistry Spa Chlorine and run your jets for at least 1/2 hour to activate extra sanitizing of your tub. Alternatively, you can opt to active the Boost function on the main control panel."
Like I said, I have no issue throwing a little chlorine in there after heavy use, but it sure does seem like the occasional 2-3 users shouldn't have to.
Thanks again for the replies.
Anybody else?
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I am certainly no expert but it seems to me that manufacturers will market sanitization systems to appeal to people who are understandably concerned about gross water. I suspect this is another one of those areas where the sizzle beats the steak and that those systems are more bark than bite. Hydropool's "self cleaning tubs" (WTF?!) and salt water systems come to mind.
I don't have a big bather load most of the time so I don't have the experience to report on that. But after ten months of use I've gained a pretty good comfort level on water maintenance and chemical use. I've resolved a few minor cloudy/green water issues and now have the confidence and feel for how to deal with it and maintain nice clear balanced water. Getting your water tested at the dealer periodically is key as well in confirming that things are as expected on the water front.
I use Spa Marvel in my tub and I believe it really does reduce the need for chemicals. It also affects the chlorine readings on my text strips. Even though I'm diligent about sanitizing after each soak the readings for chlorine on my strips are at or near zero. I think the Spa Marvel has something to do with that.
I think the other point that needs to be accepted is that keeping your water clean and balanced requires attention and a little time. There's no substitute for that, especially a manufacturer's miracle on board system that doesn't do (as much) as it is marketed to do.
Just sayin'
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Are either of you using a mineral stick in your filter with the freshwater salt system? I have a Geneva with it (and sell Caldera Spas) and have had good luck with the system. It took about a week for me to get everything regulated but since it has been running fine. I’ve had my tub since late November. I run my output at 5 and typically shock with liquid chlorine once a month or so. I aim to run my chlorine level at a 1ppm level. Use my tub 4-5 times a week usually in morning then in the evening with my wife and sometimes with my kids. Haven’t had the cloudy water yet. Did get foamy for a few days after I had a birthday party at my house. Bunch of kids used it at the party. Had to shock twice with liquid chlorine to get rid of foam. I’ve sold a bunch of these systems. Have had a couple people have some trouble with it but when I’ve had them add the mineral stick to the filter the issues have dissipated. Currently have one customer who is having a hard time with it but I think he is on the right track and will be corrected soon. Try running in with a mineral stick. I bet that helps greatly.
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As Hottubguy stated, the mineral stick will help as it is an additional sanitizer and also allows for a lower chlorine level. I personally think 5 is way to low of a setting for a Grandee. I recommend to my customers 7-8 based on usage. Boost does work but user demand can exceed the rate at which boost creates chlorine. If you can prepare ahead of time, boost prior to the party. With any water care routine, being proactive will always yield better results than being reactive. A couple of other things to consider. You should really switch from using granular chlorine to liquid chlorine. By doing so you prevent the buildup of CYA which eventually will reduce the effectiveness of the chlorine and/or create a chlorine lock. I would also see if your dealer can do a phosphate test. High phosphates can cause issues with any system, salt, chlorine, bromine, @ease, etc.
So far, I have had success with Freshwater Salt. I do have 2-3 customers that have had more difficulty than others but overall customer satisfaction has been high.
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We are using a mineral stick, and we are able to keep the chlorine levels quite low with crystal clear water. Our system, for the two of us, has remained steady at 7, but I just bumped it to 8 to see what it does.
When we had the 7 people over, I did start the boost that morning before. We are having people over again, so will start the boost tomorrow, but I think we'll add additional chlorine in addition to the boost, as well as adding chlorine periodically, and we will be ready to give it a very good shock after. Actually, after tomorrow, it will be about time to take the filter out, soak it, shock it, etc.
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We are using a mineral stick, and we are able to keep the chlorine levels quite low with crystal clear water. Our system, for the two of us, has remained steady at 7, but I just bumped it to 8 to see what it does.
When we had the 7 people over, I did start the boost that morning before. We are having people over again, so will start the boost tomorrow, but I think we'll add additional chlorine in addition to the boost, as well as adding chlorine periodically, and we will be ready to give it a very good shock after. Actually, after tomorrow, it will be about time to take the filter out, soak it, shock it, etc.
After the boost cycle ends what is your chlorine reading at? What does it start at?
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Thanks folks for the replies, much appreciated. Couple follow up questions.
What specifically are these mineral sticks you speak of? I've not heard of them, nor had a chance to ask my dealer about them yet. We just have the metal stick that is part of the Freshwater system, which we are supposed to change out every 3-4 months. I'm assuming you're talking about something in addition to that?
Also, on the liquid chlorine, can you recommend a specific product I should be looking at? I'll need to do the research on CYA. Heard of it, but have not investigated.
Thanks again for the replies.
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Freshwater Silver Ion Sanitizer. The metal stick you are referencing is what we are talking about. Liquid chlorine is bleach. I provide my customers with bleach on startup. Plain old bleach. Do not use the splash-less, fragranced, or concentrated bleach, just regular old bleach.
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We are using a mineral stick, and we are able to keep the chlorine levels quite low with crystal clear water. Our system, for the two of us, has remained steady at 7, but I just bumped it to 8 to see what it does.
When we had the 7 people over, I did start the boost that morning before. We are having people over again, so will start the boost tomorrow, but I think we'll add additional chlorine in addition to the boost, as well as adding chlorine periodically, and we will be ready to give it a very good shock after. Actually, after tomorrow, it will be about time to take the filter out, soak it, shock it, etc.
After the boost cycle ends what is your chlorine reading at? What does it start at?
When I set it up for boost, we are usually super low. About 1, but I don't know legit readings after the boost, as I always end up adding additional chlorine after the boost cycle. I just set it for boost this morning in anticipation of the people tonight, and I added additional chlorine, so it is at a solid 2 right now. I'll take a reading later. I'm interested to see where it will be at later in the day.
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After reading suggestions here, it seems we are doing it all right. We added the mineral stick within a few weeks of having the hot tub. We have always used bleached, and as I said, when it is the two of us, we can keep it at a steady 7 that gives us minimal chlorine, but it is still clear.
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I’m interested to see your readings later. When I do a boost cycle my chlorine goes up
Above 5. Sounds like you are doing everything correctly. Have you had the water checked for phosphates?
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There is a huge difference in treating after a heavy bather load the next morning and doing it immediately after usage. Having 8 hours or so for the sanitizer not keeping up makes the dosage required much higher to get it back in line.
One of the nice things about doing the dichlor/liquid bleach (Clorox) method is that you do it reactive to your usage. With heavy usage say 4 people in the tub for an hour I now have a feel for how much sanitizers to use. If I add dichlor I add about a tablespoon if the CYA is over 50 I add 1/3 cup of bleach. If the bather load was super high or I had a lot of people in it that didn’t shower first I might even double that always running the clean cycle. I put it in go in get dried off and changed and then the last step is when the clean cycle stops clean the tub. After a heavy use I will check the next morning and see what is left of the sanitizer I added and adjust.
If I was running my inline system or had a salt tub I would still have to add something for the imbalance based on load.
I really think the trick is getting it in as soon as you can after the usage and not letting stuff grow in there. Salt to chlorine generation is steady but doesn’t give you the punch when you need it most if it was set high enough for the peaks then it would be too high most of the time.
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I have the freshwater salt system too and have been having issues with the chlorine readings. But, the store told me that I’m not going to see chlorine readings using the regular test strips that come with the hot tubs. That the freshwater salt uses a chlorine type that won’t register with the strips. I need to follow up with them still to figure out how I’m supposed to test the chlorine then, but according to them you can’t with the strips. So for now I’ve been going off that there is chlorine there even though I can’t tell. The only way I get a chlorine level to show on the strips is if I’ve shocked it with chlorine powder. (Didn’t know about the liquid bleach). Anyway I just thought I’d put that bit of information out into the universe. :) Does that sound familiar to anyone else as to why the readings aren’t showing on the test strips?
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I’m curious what your dealer is talking about. I can test my floor models with Freshwater test strips, Aquachek test strips, a Taylor test kit and my BioGuard spinlab. If there is chlorine it will read.
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Castletonia, so even the chlorine generated by the salt system should show up as a reading on the test strips?
I knew that sounded fishy. I never have a chlorine reading and thought something was wrong with my brand new tub, but they said it was normal to not have a reading.
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Correct. Chlorine is chlorine, regardless of how you create it. It is possible that your output setting is doing just enough to keep the hot tub clean but not enough to generate a residual chlorine level. The fact that you are using the silver ion means you can have a low chlorine level (0.5 - 1.0 ppm). I would have your dealer check the phosphate levels. If you have high phosphates they will consume the chlorine rapidly and may prevent you from getting a reading.
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Castletonia, so even the chlorine generated by the salt system should show up as a reading on the test strips?
I knew that sounded fishy. I never have a chlorine reading and thought something was wrong with my brand new tub, but they said it was normal to not have a reading.
If you have ozone with your Freshwater Salt System... you also won't have a chlorine residual. That's how we sell most of ours
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After the boost cycle ends what is your chlorine reading at? What does it start at?
I started the boost on Sunday morning, and it was at 2. That afternoon around 3 pm I tested the chlorine levels again, and it was still at a 2.
The next morning after using it through the night with guests I set it on a boost again, and added additional chlorine, and let the jets run for about a half an hour. We didn't get cloudy water this time around.
I guess we need to get our water tested for phosphates. that seems to be the last missing question we should get answered.
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After the boost cycle ends what is your chlorine reading at? What does it start at?
I started the boost on Sunday morning, and it was at 2. That afternoon around 3 pm I tested the chlorine levels again, and it was still at a 2.
The next morning after using it through the night with guests I set it on a boost again, and added additional chlorine, and let the jets run for about a half an hour. We didn't get cloudy water this time around.
I guess we need to get our water tested for phosphates. that seems to be the last missing question we should get answered.
That would be my next stop. Sounds like you are doing everything properly
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After the boost cycle ends what is your chlorine reading at? What does it start at?
I started the boost on Sunday morning, and it was at 2. That afternoon around 3 pm I tested the chlorine levels again, and it was still at a 2.
The next morning after using it through the night with guests I set it on a boost again, and added additional chlorine, and let the jets run for about a half an hour. We didn't get cloudy water this time around.
I guess we need to get our water tested for phosphates. that seems to be the last missing question we should get answered.
proper Phosphate levels are crucial for smooth operation of the salt system, if your levels are sky high it will really effect how well the system works. There are liquid phosphate removers or granular phosphate stabilizing products that pretty easy to use right after doing a fresh fill. Good Luck!
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I have an Aria with the freshwater Salt System. Two of us use it 5-6 days a week. I use about 1/4 tsp of granulated chlorine every 2 to 3 days and shock it once a week with non chlorine shock. I have the output set at 5 which works perfectly for us. I knew from the start that I would have to use chlorine but compared to a non salt tub it’s very minimal. I also have the silver ion cartridge in the filter compartment. I use the freshwater 5 way strips. Just make sure you’re reading the chlorine line and not the bromine line. Whoever said the chlorine won’t show on strips shouldn’t be selling hot tubs!!! When my grandkids come to visit next month I fully expect to use more chlorine.
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After the boost cycle ends what is your chlorine reading at? What does it start at?
I started the boost on Sunday morning, and it was at 2. That afternoon around 3 pm I tested the chlorine levels again, and it was still at a 2.
The next morning after using it through the night with guests I set it on a boost again, and added additional chlorine, and let the jets run for about a half an hour. We didn't get cloudy water this time around.
Got a phosphate test kit, and phosphates tested at about 1500 ppm.
I guess we need to get our water tested for phosphates. that seems to be the last missing question we should get answered.
proper Phosphate levels are crucial for smooth operation of the salt system, if your levels are sky high it will really effect how well the system works. There are liquid phosphate removers or granular phosphate stabilizing products that pretty easy to use right after doing a fresh fill. Good Luck!
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I have a hot springs Vanguard purchased new in April with the freshwater system.
We used once a week (Sundays) for about 2-3 hours with my wife & 2 kids. I shock after every use (and sometimes on the Wednesday if its not perfectly clear). Rotate and clean the filters.... Balance PH
We haven't ever seen chlorine show up on the strips more that for a week. Our AD has drained the tub; done some sort of special flush; and apparently changed all of the guts of the freshwater system electronics.... Still no Residual chlorine. They've tested the water multiple times.. Hardness hangs right at 25PPM. Salt is right in the middle of the range on the controller. They replaced one of the cartridges and told us it had some kind of scale on it (but not why).
6 months in, I'm pretty disappointed with the salt system... Don't want to have to run silver ion or some other mineral AND salt unless I have to (why did I buy salt; could have done this without it).....
My AD says they're waiting for HS to provide direction...
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Has your dealer ever tested for phosphates? If the phosphates are high, above 500ppb, they are going to cause issues. Also, what are you shocking with? MPS, chlorine? If chlorine, what kind? Also, was the hot tub initially sanitized on startup with chlorine?
I probably have 50-60 customers with Freshwater Salt YTD and the amount that are experiencing issues are small. The ones that are have been a combination of reasons (high phosphates, high cya, improper water chemistry). I have had a few cartridges fail in the 3 month range, but I haven't had one actually not work at all and I have yet to have a bad power supply.
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Castletonia, so even the chlorine generated by the salt system should show up as a reading on the test strips?
I knew that sounded fishy. I never have a chlorine reading and thought something was wrong with my brand new tub, but they said it was normal to not have a reading.
If you have ozone with your Freshwater Salt System... you also won't have a chlorine residual. That's how we sell most of ours
I have seen the same thing with an ozonator used in conjunction. I think the 03 (active ozone) burns up the free chlorine ions and it basically makes the saltwater system ineffective. I have had the system on my 2019 vangard (freshwater generator) and I keep an eye on it every few days. I am very dissapointed in the documentation with this system. Our system is used 2-3 times a week for 30 minutes or so. If you have an ozonator I believe the 03 reacts with the free chlorine and you'll never see it register properly and you'll also burn up the salt. I thought this might just be a fluke and within about a week the water went green with ozone only. Had to dump the water and restart. Don't use the MPS sanitizer as well; it will burn up the free chlorine as it's an oxidizer.
Here is how it's worked best for me thus far-
- Check the titanium cartridge for buildup every 2-3 weeks; if there is buildup use a paper towel to remove them completely. It looks like a calcium/salt mixture on the edges of the plates. The system will tell you to replace the cartridge every 3-4 months but it will work fine in my experience if you clean it. I'd suspect the real lifetime is about 6 months with a low bather load if you keep the setting below 5 on the control panel.
- If you use the hot tub for over 30 minutes with more than 2 bathers, use the boost mode option after you're done. If more than 2 bathers add 1/4 tsp of granulated chlorine when you're done. Going into the hot tub in the buff will reduce the other garabge you'll have to deal with (e.g. fabric softener, etc from clothes).
You will need to re-check the hot tub if not being used about every week to maintain this.
It's amazing that in the year 2019 that hot tub maintenance is a joke. You could pretty much get chlorine or bromine tablets which will dissapate the chlorine at a low level but will likely end up damaging the tub cover.
Overall the hot tub ownership experience is good in terms of dealing with sore backs from lots of computer work (programming) but for a busy family maintenance is really still a problem if you forget to go see how things are going every 4-7 days.
I'm actually looking to build a microcontroller based product to interact with the freshwater system over RS485 to detect bather load and regulate the chlorine level in a more linear manner instead of shocking the tub every other week. At some point, the total dissolved solids become a problem and will continue to burn up free chlorine as the spent up chlorine ions and other body oils increasily burn up the chlorine as the water ages. Looking to see if I can model this behavior and make a product to detect and automate loads. I'd personally love for owners of vacation homes to be able to leave the tub alone for 2-4 weeks and have the chlorine at least still .5 to 1ppm. I am sure vacation home owners with hot tubs either have to hire the equivalent of a pool man to maintain this if they live far away.
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I'll ask the question about if they have tested for phosphates? That wouldn't be part of my normal routine.
Shocking with Sodium Dichlor-S-tria Dihydrate.
First initial startup we would use the chlorine that came with the starter kit to get it going.
Appreciate the help.
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Stop using the sodium dichlor. Switch to liquid chlorine if necessary.
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I have a hot springs Vanguard purchased new in April with the freshwater system.
We used once a week (Sundays) for about 2-3 hours with my wife & 2 kids. I shock after every use (and sometimes on the Wednesday if its not perfectly clear). Rotate and clean the filters.... Balance PH
We haven't ever seen chlorine show up on the strips more that for a week. Our AD has drained the tub; done some sort of special flush; and apparently changed all of the guts of the freshwater system electronics.... Still no Residual chlorine. They've tested the water multiple times.. Hardness hangs right at 25PPM. Salt is right in the middle of the range on the controller. They replaced one of the cartridges and told us it had some kind of scale on it (but not why).
6 months in, I'm pretty disappointed with the salt system... Don't want to have to run silver ion or some other mineral AND salt unless I have to (why did I buy salt; could have done this without it).....
My AD says they're waiting for HS to provide direction...
Do you happen to have an ozone generator along with the freshwater chlorinator? If you do, the ozone will react with the free chlorine and end up turning the free chlorine into o2. I spoke with my local hot springs broker today and they are pretty clueless on how these things really should work; the customer is the guinea pig. Since I have both a salt water system generator and an ozone generator (ozone is disabled now) - you can use both the ozone and bromine salt together and the two will actually be a benefit. The chlorine gets burnt up pretty quickly at temperatures above 97F.
One thing I have noticed is that if you have well water; even if it's not too hard that a calcium substance will build up on the plates and will effectively short out the two plates together. In this situation the system will no longer generate chlorine as the anode and cathode are effectively shorted together and thus won't use the path through the water to utilize electrolysis. Bromine is way more expensive than chlorine salt, but I think in terms of the maintenance it might actually work the way it was supposed to - the ozone is very powerful and kills almost everything but a few bacteria/viruses that the chlorine/bromine will deal with. Supposedliy the ozone will continue to react with the bromine to help with bather load. I have heard that if you don't use the spa for several weeks w/ bromine salt the level will be nearly unchanged and it will also not lower or raise the ph level much at all.
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I wanted to check-in, as I was one of these people that was concerned about the output of the chlorine levels when we first got the system. We have had the hot tub five months now, and changed the cartridge last month. It is interesting because the last cartridge I had to keep it at an 8, and that would barely get us a 1 chlorine reading. I use a test kit rather than strips.
Anyway, this cartridge seems to be generating more chlorine. I have it at a 7, and just tested the water, and it's a 2 reading. I just turned it down to a 6, and I"m thinking we might be at a five. I'll check in a week. I am curious how the boost setting on this one will work because the boost on the last cartridge never really did boost anything, and now I know it wasn't me or my imagination!
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I have a hot springs Vanguard purchased new in April with the freshwater system.
We used once a week (Sundays) for about 2-3 hours with my wife & 2 kids. I shock after every use (and sometimes on the Wednesday if its not perfectly clear). Rotate and clean the filters.... Balance PH
We haven't ever seen chlorine show up on the strips more that for a week. Our AD has drained the tub; done some sort of special flush; and apparently changed all of the guts of the freshwater system electronics.... Still no Residual chlorine. They've tested the water multiple times.. Hardness hangs right at 25PPM. Salt is right in the middle of the range on the controller. They replaced one of the cartridges and told us it had some kind of scale on it (but not why).
6 months in, I'm pretty disappointed with the salt system... Don't want to have to run silver ion or some other mineral AND salt unless I have to (why did I buy salt; could have done this without it).....
My AD says they're waiting for HS to provide direction...
What is your setting?
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Just to chime in here on this topic. As far as I understand it, even though this Freshwater Salt system is "new to customers" this model year, they have actually been testing it in-house at different spa dealers around the country for a while now (not selling to customers, but using and running in showrooms and different models under different conditions). These special HotSpring dealers helped HS labs perfect the system before it was brought to market (I think that's pretty cool honestly)
My HS dealer actually refused to sell the old ACE system because customers were misusing them (keeping output set too high) and killing the cells WAY too fast. However after much R&D/testing, they are comfortable selling this new system. I personally opted not to have the Freshwater installed on my new Jetsetter, but I learned ALL about it when deciding which way to go.
As with most spa's the first month is going to be very tricky - more sanitizer is needed to keep the system "clean". They also said they pour in a lot of bleach to get the system started, and even then it takes a while to get the system fully balanced out (which can be a PITA for beginners).
To me, it seems like the dealers need more experience with these new systems before they get the bugs ironed out, but I personally think they need to include an extra replacement salt cartridge and have customers swap them out after the first two months, but that's just based on the reviews I've been reading from early adopters of the system.
I personally really like the fact that my Jetsetter is freshwater salt ready, but I think to start I'm going to stick with the traditional ozone system to reduce my overall chlorine usage. If I dislike the ozone system and continue to hear good feedback about the freshwater system I'll give it a chance.
Just my $0.02 on the subject, and some info I wasn't aware of.
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Just to chime in ...
I've had the Freshwater Salt system in an HS Envoy for 2 1/2 years now. The ACE cell finally crapped out about 3-4 months ago, although I suspect it was probably failing a bit sooner than that. My experience so far has been that I like the salt system, but was a bit sticker shocked when I had to replace the ACE. I found a less expensive alternative that is doing a terrific job so far. And while it is the case that the measurable chlorine in the water is very low, the water remains crystal clear with no additional help (for the most part). One thing I found with the original ACE system is that water chemistry issues - especially Ph - were a constant hassle. The chlorine granules were making the water much too acid (I got readings of 6.8 all the time). I suspect it's because the chlorine granules produce cyanuric acid, which needs to be balanced out constantly. Since switching salt cells, I've had no problem at all keeping the water at a happy 7.4-7.5. The amount of maintaining I've had to do has been quite minimal, even though I'm in that thing every single morning for 25 minutes.