Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Dave_L on September 11, 2004, 11:01:26 pm
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I just had a look in the section that contains the pumps, control panel, etc of our week old Jacuzzi. I was very surprised to see the lack of isolation valves at the pump inlets.
Unless, there is some method of blocking flow, it appears that the tub would have to be drained to permit pump removal. Is this correct? I did a quick search of the some of the so-called "best" tub manufacturers and found most had these valves - Arctic, Beachcomber, Marquis, -to name a few. Sundance or Jacuzzi does not have these valves. The inclusion of these valves would definitely add to the manufacturer costs however it would mean easier (less expensive) servicing when the time comes for pump removal.
Dave
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No kidding! Just ask any tech that has had to change a pump in the middle of winter! You don't want to have to drain the spa and then set around waiting for it to fill so you can test out the system....
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yeah unfortunately some manufacturers aren't as service tech freindly as they should be. D-1 has the shut-off valves on their premium line of spas, but they don't have them on their @Home hot-tub series, which I know I've heard our techs gripe about. Caldera has them on their utopia series and aquatic melodies series spas, but I'm not sure if they have them on the highland or paradise series spas they offer. I really don't understand why some manufacturers choose not to have the shut-off valves, as they aren't that expensive, and they'd really cut down their warranty work pay-outs.
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No kidding! Just ask any tech that has had to change a pump in the middle of winter! You don't want to have to drain the spa and then set around waiting for it to fill so you can test out the system....
Agreed....and I hadn't thought of the winter time angle....BRRRRR! During manufacturing, would the added labor and material cost add up to $7.00 or less per valve? If so, certainly seems well worth the expense. And if more, still well worth it.
8)
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The Sundances do not have isolation valves and we don't have to drain the spa to work on the pumps. A couple of winterizing plugs can go a long way.
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The Sundances do not have isolation valves and we don't have to drain the spa to work on the pumps. A couple of winterizing plugs can go a long way.
What are winterizing plugs?
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Rubber plugs that have a wing nut on them. You put them in a pipe, turn the wingnut, and the rubber expands, holding itself in the pipe. There is also a trick with the diverter valves.
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Anyone else know of multiple occasions were the shut off valve itself leaks?
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Yes. We try to avoid using them as much as we can. Especially slice valves. Ball valves work much better and last longer.
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Thanks for the feedback. I was thinking that a plug could be used at the filter inlet, but was unsure about bottom suction. Just remove the cover and insert the rubber plug?
One draw back to ball valves is the greater pressure drop across the valve.
As stated by others this is an excellent forum.
Thanks again.
Dave
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Speaking from a technician point of view, if I have my choice between working in the water to put in a plug in the middle of winter or closing a couple of slice valves. I choose the valves! I can close the valves, pull a pump, change a seal or pull the head apart to remove debris, put it all back together in around 30 minuets and be back in the truck warming up and drinking lukewarm coffee.
No plugs, no muss, no fuss!
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How about down the road having to cut out the slice valves and replumb because they are leaking? It takes about 2 minutes longer (in a Sundance) to put the plugs in than if there were slice valves.
Sundance used to put the valves in, but no longer do.
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Come on! Let’s at least be realistic! So your telling me that Sundance doesn't put slice valves in a spa because of the potential for them to fail latter but their OK with putting a sales tool like the Stainless Escutcheons in that will eventually come off and have to be glued back on? Or, how about the "Aroma Therapy" that goes to pot. Let's not forget about a weir door that has the potential for sticking and while we're at it all cover locks fail and you have to replace a $400 cover!
Sundance does not put slice valves in theirs spa because of price and philosophy but that doesn't mean having them is a bad thing. If you put cheap one in like cal spa did for so many years then yes, they will fail. If you put good ones in they won't. Are you telling me that pump unions don't fail as often in poor water conditions? How about pump seals? Don’t even get me started on bearingless jets, those are really going to last. In fact, I think I’m going to have the wheel bearings removed from my truck and have them put either plastic-to-plastic or metal-to-metal because you guys have convinced me that bearings will just fail!
There is not much in a spa that poor water chemistry can’t break down, hence the disclaimer in just about every warranty. Sundance makes a decent spa but don’t take something they don’t do and press it as a positive making the rest of the industry sound as if they’re crazy to do it.
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I'm with Serjical on this one but I don't think its a big deal either way. Those slice valves are not used for a couple reasons. Cost of installation is certainly a driving factor but also they are not used because they themselves are a field service issue over time and as serjical indicates, they aren't really much better than a plug so the combination keeps them from being used at the manufacturer.
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Im with Tazman, nothing really to add.
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I have no idea why Sundance does not use slice valves, but if there is another way to service the spa using an expansion plug so be it. By the way, I have no idea why they removed them. I would think it is a good idea to have them if Sundance doesn’t think it is so be it. It can still be fixed just in a different manner.
I love how you bash the product, but have no basis for your opinions.
“Stainless Escutcheons in that will eventually come off” Please tell me since Sundance has introduced their intelli-jet how many escutcheons have you seen fall off?
“Aroma-Therapy that goes to pot” Still trying to figure that one out.
“Weir door that has the potential for sticking” That is the equivalent of saying my cartridge has the potential for getting dirty. Hotspring uses the same technology in their weir door. How come you are not criticizing them for their door sticking? Don’t tell me it does not have the “potential” for sticking.
“Don’t get me started on bearingless jets” Have you replaced one? Out of the million that are out there in the market under 300 have failed (as of August 2004). Does your Coleman have a failure rate on its jets of .0003 or don’t you even know the failure rate?
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Man I have read a bunch of B O L O G N A in this thread. I have over 300 jacuzzi whirlpool bath spas in the field all of which have the slice valves, NONE of which have failed since the first one I delivered when I first opend my doors. I'm calling BULL $h!t. Sundance/Jacuzzi crams so much stuff into that confined space they can't afford to use up any more room with ball or slice valves. The company has plenty of money and can easily aford to put them on all their tubs. They are not a technician friendly product P E R I O D. AND unles you are a service tech in the midwest or north east, you have no clue what it is like in sub freezing weather to stick you hand and arm in the spa water to put a plug in, then bring you hand and arm out into 20 degree air. Yeah right, slice valves are a bad thing!
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I love how you bash the product, but have no basis for your opinions.
This was not meant as a “bashing” session! Perhaps I did get passionate about it because I was frustrated with the lack of thought over the valve issue.
“Stainless Escutcheons in that will eventually come off” Please tell me since Sundance has introduced their intelli-jet how many escutcheons have you seen fall off?
I haven’t worked on a Sundance newer than 2002 and it had escutcheons off. I thought that Sundance replaced the “Intelli-Jet” with the “Fluidex” are they still calling the midsize jet the Intelli-jet?.
“Aroma-Therapy that goes to pot” Still trying to figure that one out.
First, I was trying to make a point to how ridiculous the statement of “don’t use slice valves because they fail” was. If I was going to be sarcastic I should have been accurate as well! What I should have said is “why put in aroma therapy that after a week you can’t smell and you are paying up to $4 for each bag?” This doesn’t mean aroma therapy is bad but if your cutting cost on things that are unnecessary why not start here?
“Weir door that has the potential for sticking” That is the equivalent of saying my cartridge has the potential for getting dirty. Hotspring uses the same technology in their weir door. How come you are criticizing them for their door sticking? Don’t tell me it does not have the “potential” for sticking.
First off, your door is bigger and not the same as the HotSpring. Second, that too was sarcasm. Third they can, will, and do stick and hang up at times.
“Don’t get me started on bearingless jets” Have you replaced one? Out of the million that are out there in the market under 300 have failed (as of August 2004). Does your Coleman have a failure rate on its jets of .0003 or don’t you even know the failure rate?
I don’t like the way most dealers sell the Bearingless jet! It’s much the same way slice valves were presented here, “if you have bearings they will fail”! You can’t tell me most dealers don’t say this in fact I heard the factory show team spouting this several times at the fair last month! I don’t think this jet has been in the field long enough for any of us to know what the final outcome will be. Until these spas come out of warrenty the only people that will know the fail rate is Sundance dealers. My point stands though, I wouldn’t consider having no bearings in my wheels of my vehicle. I do respect your opinion and thoughts on it though and am more than willing to be sold.
I have no idea why Sundance does not use slice valves, but if there is another way to service the spa using an expansion plug so be it. By the way, I have no idea why they removed them. I would think it is a good idea to have them if Sundance doesn’t think it is so be it. It can still be fixed just in a different manner.
THAT’S what I was looking for! That is a great statement and a very honest one, THANK YOU!
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“I haven’t worked on a Sundance newer than 2002 and it had escutcheons off. I thought that Sundance replaced the “Intelli-Jet” with the “Fluidex” are they still calling the midsize jet the Intelli-jet?”
I was talking about spas less than 2 years old. My error.
”First, I was trying to make a point to how ridiculous the statement of “don’t use slice valves because they fail” was. If I was going to be sarcastic I should have been accurate as well! What I should have said is “why put in aroma therapy that after a week you can’t smell and you are paying up to $4 for each bag?” This doesn’t mean aroma therapy is bad but if your cutting cost on things that are unnecessary why not start here?”
You are correct. The aromatherapy, in my opinion, lasts about 2 weeks. It does vary between usage of the spa. However, it is still better than “In-spa-ration” that lasts a day (maybe two), while using di-chlor. It also does not affect the chemistry of the water. I feel that is the most important factor of the aromatherapy.
“Third they can, will, and do stick and hang up at times.”
As long as you are saying it does not happen ALL the time. I agree.
”I don’t like the way most dealers sell the Bearingless jet! It’s much the same way slice valves were presented here, “if you have bearings they will fail”! You can’t tell me most dealers don’t say this in fact I heard the factory show team spouting this several times at the fair last month! I don’t think this jet has been in the field long enough for any of us to know what the final outcome will be. Until these spas come out of warranty the only people that will know the fail rate is Sundance dealers. My point stands though, I wouldn’t consider having no bearings in my wheels of my vehicle. I do respect your opinion and thoughts on it though and am more than willing to be sold.”
Dealers that put other spas down are dumb. I think most owners or salesman would agree with me. If it was a show team saying that, take it with a grain of salt. They are just like you, Stuart; they will do anything for a commission. J
There is a difference between the jets. Rotary jets rotate and pulsate. The Sundance Fluidix jets do not rotate or pulsate. They oscillate. It is not like bearings in your car because they don’t spin.
I would argue that two years is a long enough time in the field to decide what the final outcome can/will be. Can we agree to disagree on this point? In the last two years, they currently have been extremely reliable in the field.
“Quote:
I have no idea why Sundance does not use slice valves, but if there is another way to service the spa using an expansion plug so be it. By the way, I have no idea why they removed them. I would think it is a good idea to have them if Sundance doesn’t think it is so be it. It can still be fixed just in a different manner.
THAT’S what I was looking for! That is a great statement and a very honest one, THANK YOU!”
All my posts are pulled out of my *ss. I really know nothing about portable spas.
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I never said Sundance stopped using them becuase they leak. I just said Sundance stopped using them. I have seen many fail. I work on spas in Southern NH, so I know what a cold winter is.
I have never seen an escutcheon fall off of an Intelli-jet LX or any of the newer jets. Some of the older ones, they would fall off. The new escutcheons have tabs, that's why they don't fall off.
The scents in the sunscents dispenser do not last that long. Other than that, no clue what you are talking about.
The weirs are now designed with 4 slider bearings that keep it from sticking. Have not had a problem since they introduced them.
As far as the bearingless jets go, they are working great. Sand has yet to affect them. We have not seen one fail.
Coverlocks that fail? First, Sundance doesn't make the cover. Second, how do they fail? If they break, you can buy replacement locks. It is possible to replace both the male and female without cutting the cover.
I have no idea why Sundance decided to stop using them. Probably, like Wisoki said, there is not a lot of room in the equipment area.
"There is not much in a spa that poor water chemistry can’t break down, hence the disclaimer in just about every warranty. Sundance makes a decent spa but don’t take something they don’t do and press it as a positive making the rest of the industry sound as if they’re crazy to do it. "
Someone remarked that a service tech had to drain the tub to service the pumps if there were no slice valves. Just letting everyone know that not having slices valves is not that big of a deal. I never said Sundance was better for not having them. I like having them when they work.
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Glad to see you guys raggin' on a different brand for a change! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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If you really want to know what I think of the Sundance jets I'll tell you. I hate them! They feel too good and get too much attention in a competitive environment! There are things about the Sundance and Jaccuzzi that I don't agree with but the Massage is first rate.
I did not mean this to be a "Sundance Bashing" session. I just get frustrated like most people that have done this for awhile at concentrating on the silly little things when there are much bigger issues to debate.
Just to set the record straight on a couple of things, you don't know me but many on these forums do and will vouch for my integrity so I will forgive the statement about "say anything for a commission". I work for a consulting fee or take a salary from my store not a commission. when I do work on commission I would rather blow a sale than "say anything for a commission". If I have to be a yes man to sell spas then I’m certainly the wrong guy for the job! One thing I have learned though many years of doing this is if you plan on making it a career then be 100% straight forward or it will haunt you in the future! My statement on the durability of the jets is this; bearings or not there are a lot of parts in that jet from the breakdown on the website and only time will tell what the outcome of that will be.
Finally, you mentioned "my Coleman" I don't have a Coleman and never have. I do like some of the new changes they've made though.
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I read this thread with interest, but after reading the impassioned, angry words over something as arcane as whether or not a portable spa has isolation valves, I have come to a conclusion:
I have better ways to spend my time. I think I need to take a break from the boards for awhile.
See ya.
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Chas,
I promise I will chill out! ;D Your the voice of reason we need so much. I agree with you and have spent way to much time over VALVES! Stick around buddy!
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WHAT - My Optima doesn't have a slicer or dicer, gizmo or bearing that some others have!!!! I'm returnng it right away!
Really, these exchanges have caused me to spend way too much time on this forum, and not enough time in my tub!
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OOOOOHHHH I've seen far worse here....Usually started by me! ;D
Jeckle/Hyde thing don't ya know! ;)
Steve
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OOOOOHHHH I've seen far worse here....Usually started by me! ;D
Jeckle/Hyde thing don't ya know! ;)
Steve
ohhh! You caught that post did ya :-[ Sorry I couldn't resist..... ;D
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As you may or may not have noticed, I haven't posted on this or any other site for a month or more up untill about 2 days ago. My most recent one here abd now I feel the need to comment again. Pray tell, what is a worthy topic to discuss? Is not the way a spa is plumbed an important aspect of the tub?!? Or shall we all just genuflect when HotSpring is mentioned ::)
Posted by: Chas Posted on: Sep 14th, 2004, 5:35pm
I read this thread with interest, but after reading the impassioned, angry words over something as arcane as whether or not a portable spa has isolation valves, I have come to a conclusion:
I have better ways to spend my time. I think I need to take a break from the boards for awhile.
See ya.
Posted by: bethshar Posted on: Sep 14th, 2004, 6:51pm
Really, these exchanges have caused me to spend way too much time on this forum, and not enough time in my tub!