Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Sol_Dahbrishinsky on September 07, 2004, 10:42:45 am
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Thanks for all your advice as we get closer to our decision. "Turf-toe" is now cleared for more WTing.
I have my first electrical contractor coming to bid this week. I am looking for a contractor who specializes in spa hookups. However, is it feasible to have a regular (moonlighting) electrician run the wire to the box and then have a spa electrician do the final hook-ups?
Finally, must one pull a permit for a hottub?
Again thanks for your input.
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Talk to whatever authority enforces the building codes where you live. They'll tell you what you need to do permit wise. I'd be willing to bet that at least you'd need to pull an electic permit.
Any electrician who know what they are doing should know the permit laws in their work area. And they should pull the permit, not you. That way, you are not on the hook if there are inspection issues, the person pulling the permit is, regardless of who actually did the work. At least that's the way it is here.
This stuff can vary a lot by region.
Brewman
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Yep, absolutely what Brewman said. I'd add, don't worry so much about an elect. who specializes in Htubs. Rather, go for a guy who is 1)ethical/honest, 2)talks QUALITY work, 3)seems to know & talk about NEC code. (There are more electricians than you'd think who don't care about code and/or don't know it. The good ones are familiar with much of the code and look it up
when they're not.)
Ask for & check any references given. (You'd be amazed in the trades how many people ask for references but never call them. I guess people think, "If he gave them out they must be ok. . .") Finally, remember value is the sum of price AND quality. Price alone is a cheap job.
Once you pick your ethical/honest guy, give him all the elect. install info from the tub maker. Any good electrician will instantly understand the diagrams & printed specs on hookup. They'll also work with you on any aesthetic concerns (how to best hide the conduit, etc.) Good luck!
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I like what under and brewman both said. The spa crew most likely won't make the final hook up due to liability.
The dealer where you purchased should be able to refer an electrician that other of his customers have used.
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Had my first electrician come over last night.
We have a straight shot from sub-panel to tub area.
He gave me some ideas about placement and decking.
Thought bid would be about $600 plus $175 for HIS box. What in your opinion is the top panel box at the spa. Is it critical as the electrician states?
I would like to post pictures and get feed back for placement.. any one have info on how to upload?
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Hi Sol! Not sure what your electrician told you about external panels but here's my 2c, FWIW. Breakers in outdoor installations wear out over time. Understand how a breaker works - a flat metal spring (bi-metalic) is used that changes shape as it heats. Current flowing through it causes the heat. Run enough current through and the spring heats enough (changes shape) to "trip" the breaker lever and disengage elect. contact. The bimetal spring is affected over time from exposure to the elements, humidity, etc. Outdoor breakers have a shorter life span. GFCI breakers by their nature have a shorter life than non-GFCI breakers. Bottom line, don't buy cheap breakers, buy the best available.
As far as the box, similar story. Expensive "brand" boxes will be better designed/assembled to keep rain on the outside. Better quality control with the finish (paint job) means less raw metal edges for humidity/rain to start working on. Don't skimp here either.
So if the elect. was saying buy top brand box/breakers - absolutely. One more consideration - you can use GFCI breaker at the indoor panel and non-GFCI breakers outside (check with your local code office first to make sure your municipality is ok with this.) The advantage is longer breaker life. GFCIs will simply last longer indoors. Regular breakers hold up better outdoors. GFCIs are more expensive that non-GFCI.
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Heres what I did, and it works fine, meets NEC, and passed inspection by one helluva thorough inspector.
Put the GFI breaker in the panel, a basement sub panel in my case, and ran the power to an inexpensive 60 amp a/c non fused pull box, which was mounted to the outside of the house to kill the power to the spa.
Saved the cost of a feeder breaker on the sub panel, and the a/c pull box cost all of $10.
Brewman
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Hi Sol:
I agree with the last comment by Brewman 100%, along with the previous discussion concerning breakers in outdoor environments. Going with the GFCI at the indoor panel is the way to go.
Also, consider doing the "rough-in" work on your own. For my first installation, I installed the cut-off box outside, ran conduit to the tub with 4 wire, ran conduit and 4 wire to the panel and got everything "in position" for the electrician. When the electrician came out he checked the "rough-in" generally, installed the breaker, hooked up the "cut-off" and installed the 4 wire to the tub. In all, he charged me $150 for a two hour job.
For my latest installation (new construction house), I had the builder pre-wire an exterior 60 AMP remote panel (outside) and did all of the installation myself. I used an outdoor remote panel (with breakers) in my new house so I could run additional outdoor circuits if needed. The 60 AMP feed is GFCI at the indoor panel.
Also, to save money generally, consider Ebay for electrical components. A 50 AMP SquareD QO GFCI Breaker goes for about $60 on Ebay compared to $120 in Home Depot.
Here's an Ebay link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26215&item=3837712821&rd=1
Good luck!
Drewski
8)
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Why don't Spas tap off the main meter directly to an outside box much the sames as a A/C Compressor does??
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Also, consider doing the "rough-in" work on your own. For my first installation, I installed the cut-off box outside, ran conduit to the tub with 4 wire, ran conduit and 4 wire to the panel and got everything "in position" for the electrician. When the electrician came out he checked the "rough-in" generally, installed the breaker, hooked up the "cut-off" and installed the 4 wire to the tub. In all, he charged me $150 for a two hour job.
Good luck!
Drewski
8)
The rough in technique worked great for me too, saved a lot of labor from the professional, but still got his blessing.
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I gotta disagree about having the GFCI inside. With the GFCI inside, someone always needs to be home or you will have to leave your doors open if you need service. With the GFCI outside, the technician has everything he needs right outside. If the breaker trips, you only have a few feet to go to reset it.
If you want a quality breaker, try the SBSG breaker with the alarm built in. It is a GFCI and disconnect all in one.
In a raintight box, you won't have any problems.
George
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Thank you all for such great advice..
My next post will be for the patio design :D
again thanks
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Hi George, you're right! You want to be able to kill power without going inside. But what several of us are saying is, put the GFCI in the main indoor panel. It feeds an outdoor panel mounted within sight of the spa. Put regular breakers or disconnect outside.
You can still kill power a few steps from the spa but the GFCI (fiendishly expensive) is indoors & protected from the elements. You're also right about using a raintight box. However, they are not airtight and the extra humidity outdoors will over time take a toll on the breakers. ('Course if you buy a HotSpring like I did you don't get this option - they supply the outdoor panel with two GFCI breakers installed.)
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If the GFI breaker is inside, and that breaker is suspect in the problem, then yes, someone needs to be home to let in the service person. Otherwise, the spa power can be cut with the outdoor disconnect for the spa.
As a general rule, I like to be home whenever any service people are at the house, even if they stay outside. So letting someone in the basement to work with the GFI isn't a big deal in my case.
Hopefully my spa is trouble free enough that hanging around for a repairman isn't something that happens often enough to make it inconvenient. So far so good.
Brewman
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From my experience, GFCIs rarely go bad. They are designed to be outside. So why not make it easy for everyone? The disconnect is great, but sometimes putting the disconnect in causes the GFCI to trip. If you are not home when this happens and the GFCI is inside, there is nothing I can do. HOPEFULLY the job is done. HOPEFULLY it is not the dead of winter.
The GFCI on the outside just makes it easier. When the tub is tripping the breaker and you start disconnecting things, it is much easier to walk a couple steps and try the GFCI, and see what kicks on to make the GFCI trip, than to go into a basement and do the same thing. It is a big time saver.
George
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George:
The electrician told me that several of the outside boxes LEAK. Is there a brand that is a step-above?
Also, he told me that if I get a box to hold more than the GFI that he would use larger cable and we would have the opportunity to add power outside from the same box. Is this a prudent idea?
Thanks for the help... I think the more planning ahead of time will yield a better result :o
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You can use a box large enough to hold more than just the 50 amp breaker for the tub but your wiring coming out to it and the main breaker needs to be large enough to accommodate. As far as the box leaking, I have 100's of people that have put the $79 Challenger box from Home depot that already has a GFI in it with no problem. I like to put the GFCI out in the sub-panel because it is not as long of a run and you don't have pay the extra money for a specialty breaker to match your existing panel (code requires that you use the same brand within the main panel). Most codes require that the sub- panel is no closer than 5 ft from waters edge and no further than 25 ft within view. They want you to be able to see the shut down easily and immediate in case of an emergency and they want to make sure no one can reach electric while sitting in the spa.
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I have been installing sub panels outside for close to 20 years with no problems.
If you are concerned about the breakers and heat, put some form of shade over the box. This can be accomplished in any number of ways: put the box under a patio cover, plant a bush, hang a plant, paint it a light color (match the house?) tuck it just around a corner, put it in a box with a hinged lid/door etc.
I like having the GFI breakers in the sub panel for several reasons, not the least of which is simple economics: HotSpring ships the GFI breakers that we need to use in a GE sub panel, included in the price of the spa. Also, they are covered by the tub warranty.
But other reasons I like having them out near the tub are:
eliminates the need for another shut-off device (main reason here is the extra junctions that puts into the various circuits - esp. ground)
the breakers get tested when the user drains the tub
you can shut off the heat only if you want to cool the tub
easy troubleshooting - on the phone I can ask which breaker and that tells me a lot.
our boxes have room for another breaker (or two) for add'l circuits.
They come in a nice, nuetral grey color that goes with everything
;)
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Chas,
If I would purchase a Hotspring Prodigy, the subpanel is not included in the price of the spa. If I want to run the spa 220 and purchase the subpanel separately is it still covered under the warranty?
Chris H