Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: dru on March 22, 2017, 07:28:26 pm
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I need help making a decision. I have narrowed my choices down to 2 top contenders (and an alternate). I've put all of wet testing observations below my questions so you can understand where I am with this.
I'm in the Washington, DC Metro area. The prices I've been quoted (before tax, including delivery, cover, lifter, stairs, and some chemicals) are:
Caldera Cantabria for $13,800 ($13,300 if I don't use the 0% financing deal)
Caldera Makena or Salina (alternate) for $9,080
Artesian Grand Bahama Elite for $9974
Are these prices good, ok, too high?
From my point of view, the additional $3800 for the Cantabria is entirely being spent to get the UltraMasseuse System because nothing else that I get from that tub is specifically better than what I will get in the Artesian Grand Bahama Elite. Do any of you have the Cantabria that has the UltraMasseuse System? Is it worth spending the extra money?
Should I consider the Caldera Geneva? I haven't been able to wet test one and I'm not sure what the price will be, but I think he told me it would be about $2000 more than the Makena. I'm wondering if this one would be more like what I liked in the Grand Bahama Elite with the added bonus of the hotter temperature settings and the 0% financing.
My Wet Testing Notes:
Top 2 contenders:
Artesian Grand Bahama Island Elite -
This has everything we loved about the Tropic Sea Rio Elite plus a bunch of other really good jets that the Rio didn't have (e.g. hips) and the separate pumps to make the jets more powerful than the Rio. The jets on the headrest in one seat the come down at your shoulders was great too. (I still had the floating leg problem.)
I loved everything about this tub until I tried the Caldera and the jets felt more powerful, which then made the jets in this one seem not as good.
As of right now, if we aren't getting the Cantabria, we still prefer this over the Caldera Makena.
Caldera Cantabria -
I love this tub for one reason: I LOVE THE ULTRAMASSEUSE SYSTEM!
This tub is way bigger than we want or need and much more expensive than our budget (even after we decided to up the budget to $10k).
The lounger in this tub is different than in the Makena and I was able to go back and forth between the 2 tubs to confirm that, even when not using the awesome massage program in this lounger, I like the geometry/fit and the jets in this one better than the Makena.
The other seats in this tub have some features that I liked in the Grand Bahama Elite:
- jets that come out of the pillow onto your shoulders
- hip jets
- hand/wrist jets
Alternate:
Caldera Makena -
I was completely sold on the Artesian Grand Bahama Elite until I tried this one and the jets felt much more powerful. In the 2 non-lounge corner seats I was able to move around to get the jets to hit the back of my neck and shoulders in all the right places. What I didn't like was that I had to move all around to get that to happen (as opposed to the Grand Bahama where the jets already seemed to be in the right places). Also, I want a lounger but I wasn't overly excited about this particular lounger. I liked the geometry/fit of lounger in the Grand Bahama and the Cantabria better. This one was briefly at the top of the list, has been back and forth between first and third place on the list, and now I'm just not sure.
Additional considerations that matter to me:
1. The Caldera can be set to 106 while the Artesian can only go up to 104. I have fibromyalgia and osteoarthritis, which are both helped by heat, I live were it gets cold in the winter, and I am one of those people who can never seem to get warm enough, so the option of a hotter tub is plus for me.
2. We can currently get the Caldera with 0% financing for 36 months and the best we can get on the Artesian is 0% for 12 months.
Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated. I have entered a state of complete decision making paralysis right now.
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We have the Caldera Geneva for a couple years now and have been very happy with it and we also upped our budget to get it from the mid-grade Caldera. It is a roomy tub and we live up on the great lakes and see sub zero temps a lot and for weeks straight and the insulation system and the dual breaker panel were a couple features I liked about it. We have never had ours as hot as you mentioned but around 103 – 104 it has been pretty easy to heat in the coldest of weather and cost I feel to operate it has been very reasonable.
The hip jets and wrist jets are very nice but the neck jets that are above the water line are not of much use if they still have them in the new model. One of the nicest features on ours is the second control panel inside the tub. We use it all the time and it is much easier than leaning over to use the other one. The other display will reverse though so you can read it from in the tub.
I cant comment on the other brands or models as I haven’t used them.
Happy tubbing.
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Sounds like you really like the Caldera and should go that way. Caldera makes a great hot tub. Fyi, that financing has a cost associated with it that the dealer has to build into the price. You are paying for it whether you realize it or not. Also fyi, that's a great deal on a great spa with the Grand Bahama. I think the Artesian Island Spas have possibly the best bang for buck in the industry, especially at that price.
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Im also in the DC area and you should talk to Dave at Home Escapes in Herndon if you have not. I think he can do better on the Caledera price and he was our favorite of all the hot tub sales reps we met. We were on the verge of getting the Cantabria (on paper) but then my husband did not love the wet test - I think it just didnt fit his extreme size well (6'7" and 275lbs) and the jets were not powerful enough for him. I really liked it however. I also really liked the Geneva which I also wet tested at the same place (too small for our family). I liked the motion on the lounger but I think the regular Geneva lounger was really nice too so I wouldn't buy a lot more than you need just for that.
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Im also in the DC area and you should talk to Dave at Home Escapes in Herndon if you have not. I think he can do better on the Caledera price and he was our favorite of all the hot tub sales reps we met. We were on the verge of getting the Cantabria (on paper) but then my husband did not love the wet test - I think it just didnt fit his extreme size well (6'7" and 275lbs) and the jets were not powerful enough for him. I really liked it however. I also really liked the Geneva which I also wet tested at the same place (too small for our family). I liked the motion on the lounger but I think the regular Geneva lounger was really nice too so I wouldn't buy a lot more than you need just for that.
One small thought on jets. On our Geneva I switched 2 of the spin jets from the corner seat with two from the lounger, so the lounger would have all the spinners. They just twist out and takes 5 minutes to switch them. If you have a preference for one type or the other in your favorite seat you could buy jets or maybe your dealer would sell the tub with all the type you like best. She likes the spinners and she likes the lounger so it was easy for us to decide to put them all together. I actually like the straight jets better. For a reason your husband might figure out after you get the tub if he is hairy. ::)
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I'm thinking that what I really need to figure out is whether I like the Geneva more than the Artesian Grand Bahama Elite. I think that will tell me whether I want a Caldera just because of the massage system or genuinely because it is a better fit for me overall.
I had forgotten that one of the dealers mentioned switching around the jets. That might help if I'm otherwise happy with the rest of the setup.
I'll let me husband know that he should be glad he's not very hairy ;)
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Im also in the DC area and you should talk to Dave at Home Escapes in Herndon if you have not. I think he can do better on the Caledera price and he was our favorite of all the hot tub sales reps we met. We were on the verge of getting the Cantabria (on paper) but then my husband did not love the wet test - I think it just didnt fit his extreme size well (6'7" and 275lbs) and the jets were not powerful enough for him. I really liked it however. I also really liked the Geneva which I also wet tested at the same place (too small for our family). I liked the motion on the lounger but I think the regular Geneva lounger was really nice too so I wouldn't buy a lot more than you need just for that.
Thanks for the response. We are actually working with Dave at Home Escapes.
He didn't have water in the Geneva and I haven't asked to wet test that one but I may need to try it. I really liked the massage system in the Cantabria but I might be fine without it. It will just be my husband and I in the tub most of the time, so we don't need anything as big as the Cantabira but we were not as excited about the Makena as we were about the Cantabria (they both had water in them when we went to wet test, so we were able to try them back to back).
I am also still concerned about the price he quoted us being a bit high. We aren't getting any options (speakers, bluetooth, connextion). Did he ever give you a price on the Cantabria (and do you remember what it was)? Do you mind me asking what you paid for your Geneva?
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He can do better than that if you are prepared to walk but I still don't know that you need such a large tub. He will probably switch the water to the Geneva if you want to test that. We had dealers switching water all over the place so we could test.
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Thanks for the input.
We ended up wet testing the Dimension One Chairman (we hadn't tested yet because they had to move to the other end of the store to set up for a wet test) and loved it. We went back and re-tested the Cantabria on the same day just to make sure we had a good comparison between them and decided we really did prefer the Chairman.
The thing we really loved about the Cantabria was the massage program for the lounge so we decided against going with Caldera because we really don't need a tub anywhere near as big as the Cantabria and we knew we would ultimately be really disappointed in the Geneva just because it was missing the massage.
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Just for the record. The Geneva is designed to be a “circuit” tub. Meaning each seat works a different set of things in your body. If you want the works the idea is say every 10 minutes you move to the next station and by the time you get around the tub you are done. I have used ours like that and it does work every area of your body.
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Just for the record. The Geneva is designed to be a “circuit” tub. Meaning each seat works a different set of things in your body. If you want the works the idea is say every 10 minutes you move to the next station and by the time you get around the tub you are done. I have used ours like that and it does work every area of your body.
You sure your not a Caldera salesman? lolol. You looking for a job?
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Just for the record. The Geneva is designed to be a “circuit” tub. Meaning each seat works a different set of things in your body. If you want the works the idea is say every 10 minutes you move to the next station and by the time you get around the tub you are done. I have used ours like that and it does work every area of your body.
You sure your not a Caldera salesman? lolol. You looking for a job?
Not at all. In fact I have mentioned quite a few times where I was disappointed in some things about the Caldera product I bought. I did a review on their site after having the tub a few days and they sent me some test strips the review was pretty good. After a month I added some comments and they sent me a Tee shirt without asking a size and it was about 4 sizes too small. I had a few more issues at about 6 months and added to my review about how I saw their quality and it was a negative review. I didn’t get a gift but I got a letter saying they couldn’t publish my comments.
I expect problems with any complex product like a high end hot tub. But for the price they are charging I expect Cadillac quality for a Cadillac price. If I was buying a low end product I wouldn’t have as high an expectation.
If you noticed I put the word “Circuit” in “Quotes” I was never 100% sold on any of the tubs abilities to simulate a massage etc. But then on the other hand running thru the stations / seats is a very good way to enjoy the tub to the fullest. I never tested a Cantabria so I don’t know what the program is all about.
I’m not a salesman but I am a product designer and if Caldera was ever interested after a month of owning the Geneva I could have offered them a dozen improvements they could make to the tub some of them rather major items.
The one thing I was surprised about is after my last rejected review I was surprised whoever read and rejected it didn’t at least offer assistance with fixing my problem or have someone contact me to talk about an error in their assembly process. The company I work for is 1000 times larger than Watkins and we take costumer feedback very seriously and also costumer satisfaction. I think this isn’t a problem just with Watkins though I’m seeing it in all types of domestic products more and more. As a whole I see hot tub manufactures way to concerned with what you see and not as concerned with what is inside.
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Just for the record. The Geneva is designed to be a “circuit” tub. Meaning each seat works a different set of things in your body. If you want the works the idea is say every 10 minutes you move to the next station and by the time you get around the tub you are done. I have used ours like that and it does work every area of your body.
You sure your not a Caldera salesman? lolol. You looking for a job?
Not at all. In fact I have mentioned quite a few times where I was disappointed in some things about the Caldera product I bought. I did a review on their site after having the tub a few days and they sent me some test strips the review was pretty good. After a month I added some comments and they sent me a Tee shirt without asking a size and it was about 4 sizes too small. I had a few more issues at about 6 months and added to my review about how I saw their quality and it was a negative review. I didn’t get a gift but I got a letter saying they couldn’t publish my comments.
I expect problems with any complex product like a high end hot tub. But for the price they are charging I expect Cadillac quality for a Cadillac price. If I was buying a low end product I wouldn’t have as high an expectation.
If you noticed I put the word “Circuit” in “Quotes” I was never 100% sold on any of the tubs abilities to simulate a massage etc. But then on the other hand running thru the stations / seats is a very good way to enjoy the tub to the fullest. I never tested a Cantabria so I don’t know what the program is all about.
I’m not a salesman but I am a product designer and if Caldera was ever interested after a month of owning the Geneva I could have offered them a dozen improvements they could make to the tub some of them rather major items.
The one thing I was surprised about is after my last rejected review I was surprised whoever read and rejected it didn’t at least offer assistance with fixing my problem or have someone contact me to talk about an error in their assembly process. The company I work for is 1000 times larger than Watkins and we take costumer feedback very seriously and also costumer satisfaction. I think this isn’t a problem just with Watkins though I’m seeing it in all types of domestic products more and more. As a whole I see hot tub manufactures way to concerned with what you see and not as concerned with what is inside.
That's actually surprising to me as Caldera seems to publish almost all reviews and also addresses the negative ones and tries to help the customer through it. What kind of problems did you have? What are some improvements you would like to see? As a dealer I like hearing the good and bad about them. I think overall Watkins is one of the best companies as far as customer service. I know Ben and Vanessa try helping as much as they possibly can. As far as the t-shirt, they send a email asking what size to send. If you don't reply or it goes to junk mail they may just send whatever they have on hand
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That's actually surprising to me as Caldera seems to publish almost all reviews and also addresses the negative ones and tries to help the customer through it. What kind of problems did you have? What are some improvements you would like to see? As a dealer I like hearing the good and bad about them. I think overall Watkins is one of the best companies as far as customer service. I know Ben and Vanessa try helping as much as they possibly can. As far as the t-shirt, they send a email asking what size to send. If you don't reply or it goes to junk mail they may just send whatever they have on hand
They publish everything that is filtered through Bazaar voice. Caldera/Hot Spring will post everything that gets through their third party review merchant. If it doesn't meet the terms & conditions, it won't be published. For instance, Bazaar voice won't allow profanity or anything it deems offensive. They do let people know they can resubmit if they change things to meet the terms.
I'm pretty sure anyone who hosts reviews online has a third party, otherwise credibility goes out the window.
Why did your review get rejected? What did it say?
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That's actually surprising to me as Caldera seems to publish almost all reviews and also addresses the negative ones and tries to help the customer through it. What kind of problems did you have? What are some improvements you would like to see? As a dealer I like hearing the good and bad about them. I think overall Watkins is one of the best companies as far as customer service. I know Ben and Vanessa try helping as much as they possibly can. As far as the t-shirt, they send a email asking what size to send. If you don't reply or it goes to junk mail they may just send whatever they have on hand
They publish everything that is filtered through Bazaar voice. Caldera/Hot Spring will post everything that gets through their third party review merchant. If it doesn't meet the terms & conditions, it won't be published. For instance, Bazaar voice won't allow profanity or anything it deems offensive. They do let people know they can resubmit if they change things to meet the terms.
I'm pretty sure anyone who hosts reviews online has a third party, otherwise credibility goes out the window.
Why did your review get rejected? What did it say?
One of the features we love on our tub is the wrist jets.it is a pretty simple little 2 or 3-piece assembly with a bayonet mounting ring with a spinner behind it. In fact, all the moving jets are sold as removable in the event they wear out you can snap a new one in place. We had had a couple of the big jets pop out and I figured someone turned them and went to0 far and the pressure blew them out. I just rest them and all is good. The wrist jet popped off after a month and I managed to find the parts as the spinner is quite small. I went to reattach it and noticed the tabs that lock it in were missing, broken off and a large bead of RTV was applied to glue it on. I could tell from the impression in the RTV that the tab was missing at the time of assembly. So, in fact the cover was just stuck on with the RTV. All types of product testing should take place on durability etc., but if a part breaks and a repair is slapped on no one knows if it will last a day or twenty years. It is a minor problem and in the industry, I work in we take them serious because when your customer sees a slip up like that it alters customer perception. I mentioned a few more items related to perception as I was on the subject. I did my own install and wiring and when I went to take the side panel off my new 12k tub I took out all the screws. I had no instructions on doing that as they are inside the equipment area and I saw the outside light somehow attached so I was being careful not to damage anything. I even loosened the corner pieces if I remember correctly and still nothing budged. I went on line and downloaded the same information that was inside the tub and saw it was to lift up as it was attached with a French cleat type fit. Nothing I strained trying to lift the panel off. I got a block of wood and a 3’ 2x4 and used it like a leaver to push up on the panel and I got a slight movement on one end and then the other doing this back and forth it slowly became looser and I could hear cracking sounds like something ripping loose. Then it came off. CONT
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What had happened was the wood frame of the tub was painted black and the cover was applied before the paint had dried and the panel was glued in place. Some of the painted areas came away from the wood and I could see the quality of the wood used as backers for the decorative outside surface and it looked to be regular cheap plywood and it made me question the grade as the tub is outside and subjected to the weather. It has held up fine for 2 years now so I have no reason to say it won’t last longer without delamination. The framing inside seems to be the same builders grade wood just painted black. Nothing bad but then again nothing spectacular in a top line product. I ran my seal-tight conduit into the tub and was getting ready to terminate the conduit into the “electrical box” I use the term loosely. The box and cover that hold all the brains is the flimsiest box I have ever seen. I had to use some zip ties to stabilize the conduit as the box wasn’t strong enough to support a few feet of the wire and flex conduit and the metal conduit nut I put on backwards as the griper teeth would have just cut thru the box if I tightened it up the right way. I wasn’t that happy to see a termination strip for the #8 wires that was a back stab friction design. I personally when dealing with 50amp of power potential would have liked to see some binding screw termination points. Again I used them and they have worked fine for a couple years now. But it always makes me wonder when one end of a wire is secured in the GFCI disconnect panel with heavy hooks and screw pressure and the other end just slips in and touches a contact. When you view inside the flimsy electrical box and you see all the chips on the circuit board and know the device is outside in a wet environment sharing the area with pumps and hoses and potential moisture issues and replacing the cover required me bending slightly the metal clip that holds the cover on to make the best seal I could get. I had to think spending another $2 on a better designed box wouldn’t have been a bad idea. Again just my opinion as I haven’t had a failure. Another comment I made and again it is quite minor but is an observation was the screws that hold the panels on. I think they are stainless a good thing and the heads looked like they were spray painted to match the tub. It was impossible to use a screwdriver to remove the screws without dinging the paint on the screw heads as the bond between the metal and the paint was not much. There are anodizing processes and such for cosmetic parts that need to match. Picture your kitchen cabinets that have decorative hardware and the screws having shiny scratch marks from being taken off just once. CONT
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As to the wrist jets we had one blowing harder than the other I didn’t feel like gluing the one back on and draining and drying the tub to do it and the one without the spinner even felt better and more forceful. So I took the other one off and it was glued on as well. Other than they don’t have a chrome ring they work and look ok.
The frog system was another area of overselling the tub as it was said to set it and forget it. It never worked that way for me as the chemicals are depleted the rate of dispensing changes IMO. Somewhat different than a floating application even. I just found it way less accurate than what they claim.
Some of the logic in the light programmer could be really cleaned up to make it user friendly. Maybe they have with the new released Geneva.
Another thing I would change on my Geneva is the location of the ozone jet. It is right next to your left leg blowing on your calf. That wouldn’t be a problem but the water temp out of that jet is hotter that the rest of the jets. I suppose it comes right off the heater line where the others have some mixing with tub water, don’t really know. It is a little thing but I could suggest a dozen better locations.
I didn’t bad mouth the product in any way and didn’t use profanity. Never got a letter about the shirt and never expected a gift in the first place or required one. I actually searched quite a bit trying to find another line of direct communication email or such but most things pointed to the user comment page so that is the way I went.
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That's a lot read....Too address a few of them. If you turn the big jets too far they will pop out. manual Using a adhesive doesn't seem like a very smart fix. Not sure why they just wouldn't replace them at the factory. Pretty dumb on there part. The manual being in the cabinet is pretty standard. That's where almost all manufacturers put them. That has nothing to do with Caldera but more your dealer for not explaining how the panel comes off. If your dealer took 5 minutes to show you then that wouldn't have been a problem. If your dealer explained to you how the frog system worked then you wouldn't have issues with that either. It's not a set it and forget it system though it does cut down on having to add as many chemicals manually. The frame has changed on all June and beyond 2016 Utopia models. It's a sturdier frame on the new style. There isn't screws on the new Utopia panels so that has also been addressed. Control box and ozone jet I've never heard complaints on them before. The control box is the same if not better then on any other hot tub out there. I actually think the topside is very easy to navigate. Did your dealer ever come out and go over operation of the tub. Seems he does things much differently then my dealership. We deliver Tub. Take all information, like manual out of tub so the electrician has it. Then after electrician is done we go out and go over operation and give like a spa 101 class for the customer. Very in depth review there and glad it has been operating fairly trouble free for the first few years of ownership.
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That's a lot read....Too address a few of them. If you turn the big jets too far they will pop out. manual Using a adhesive doesn't seem like a very smart fix. Not sure why they just wouldn't replace them at the factory. Pretty dumb on there part. The manual being in the cabinet is pretty standard. That's where almost all manufacturers put them. That has nothing to do with Caldera but more your dealer for not explaining how the panel comes off. If your dealer took 5 minutes to show you then that wouldn't have been a problem. If your dealer explained to you how the frog system worked then you wouldn't have issues with that either. It's not a set it and forget it system though it does cut down on having to add as many chemicals manually. The frame has changed on all June and beyond 2016 Utopia models. It's a sturdier frame on the new style. There isn't screws on the new Utopia panels so that has also been addressed. Control box and ozone jet I've never heard complaints on them before. The control box is the same if not better then on any other hot tub out there. I actually think the topside is very easy to navigate. Did your dealer ever come out and go over operation of the tub. Seems he does things much differently then my dealership. We deliver Tub. Take all information, like manual out of tub so the electrician has it. Then after electrician is done we go out and go over operation and give like a spa 101 class for the customer. Very in depth review there and glad it has been operating fairly trouble free for the first few years of ownership.
I intended to do my own install and felt comfortable doing it. There was about a week wait for the tub to be shipped (not in stock) so the dealer gave me the GFCI breaker panel and I added a 50amp breaker ran all the wires and was ready to go when the tub arrived. To my surprise my tub was not delivered by the place I bought it from but by one of their competition. Seems this company subs out the delivery and installation if required and also service in the future to this other business. I was kind of surprised as it was the only place we didn’t shop at as it was a fair distance away.
Getting the panel off shouldn’t have been a problem other than it was painted in place like glue.
I agree having a broken jet glued on with RTV straight from the factory did not shed a good light on perception of quality and I think the reason they didn’t put a new one on was the damage wasn’t to the part that comes off but to the connection in the tub. I was also told that they were an item that frequently came loose so the fix was “belt and suspenders” with using the lock and also the RTV. Whatever the cause I more wanted to explain the problem and the perception it formed about the product. I wasn’t asking for a new tub or my money back. I wasn’t dismayed at all until my review was censored. The correct action is to tell me we are not going to post your review instead we are going to put you in touch with Mr. SoandSo he is our head of quality and he will work with you to both solve your issues and make improvements to our process and product.
I didn’t expect to see a Hoffman enclosure inside the tub holding the electronics but I did expect something more substantial than a vacuum formed piece of 1/32 thick plastic box for terminating a ¾ conduit.
I understand some kid being paid minimum wage is reading these things and sending out the Tee shirts. But there is no more important thing in business than listening to your customers.
I haven’t looked real close at the new improvements. I will have to do that.
I do know if I was running one of these companies I would be closely watching the web forums to gain insight.
Thanks for replying and sharing your thoughts.