Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Cora5 on March 05, 2017, 04:52:58 pm
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Hi,
I am considering a hot tub purchase and I have narrowed down my decision on two brands. Hot spring Envoy NXT and Caldera Geneva. I recently wet tested the Envoy and plan to wet test the Geneva next week. There is a lot that I like about the Envoy but after looking at the Geneva I feel like this tub offers more for the money. I like the ACE saltwater cleaning system. I want a hot tub without having to expose myself to a lot of chemicals.
I am realistic in that I know that sanitation is essential and the use of chemicals at a minimum is my goal. Could you please educate me on my options for sanitizing the Caldera spa? How does the Frog system work? I see that it can be used in combination with the Monarch ozone system.
Thank you in advance for taking the time to answer my questions.
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I would start here on basics of sanitizing your hot tub.
https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/9670-How-do-I-use-Chlorine-in-my-Spa-(or-pool)
There are many methods to use. Just about every single method will require you to use some kind of chlorine/bromie based sanitizer. I don't think any of those natural methods will eliminate the need for some kind of weekly shock. They may help reduce the amount of chlorine used but you'll still need it.
I'm sure others can correct me if I am off base with the above. But there are only a few approved sanitizers available for hot tub and pool use. If you stray from those, you risk having issues. Even if you can't see them.
The chlorine method is ridiculously easy to follow. I use Dichlor granuals and sometimes bleach. Once a day. That's it.
I have an in line feeder on my marquis like the caldera has. I tried the bromine at first but had issues maintaining proper levels. I did buy the @ease chlorine cartridge and that worked much better at keeping sanitizer at constant levels. It wrecked my PH and alkalinity though so I found I was having to add baking soda to bring everything back up. But for periods of time when I can't get out to the tub every day (i.e. travelling), the in line feeder is a good options.
I'm sure you know this but a saltwater system is still chlorine. Just a different method of delivering the chlorine. An expensive one at that.
Good luck on your purchase.
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I have the Caldera Geneva and love it. I didn’t care much for the built in frog system as I started with bromine and my numbers were hard to control as mentioned above. Like mentioned I switched to a daily program of Dichlor and supplement liquid bleach once I get to the levels I like with the Dichlor as stabilizer. I have tried the @ease cartridges and they look like they would be the simplest solution but are a bit pricey. @ease is what I switch to if I’m going away for a week or more. The rest of the time I just add one tablespoon of Dichlor after we get out each night.
A salt converter is the system I would like the best. My friend added a converter and switched his tub to salt and it is wonderful. I might do the same thing. The one he bought is a saltron mini. Works and does the same thing the Ace does but a lot cheaper to keep running IMO. The smoothness of the salt water is second to none.
All the methods your exposure to harmful chemicals is very minimal far worse is what you get if you don’t sanitize enough. The biggest things we do is always shower before and moisturize after.
Both tubs are great tubs. If you have any specific questions about the Geneva please ask.
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A salt converter is the system I would like the best. My friend added a converter and switched his tub to salt and it is wonderful. I might do the same thing. The one he bought is a saltron mini. Works and does the same thing the Ace does but a lot cheaper to keep running IMO. The smoothness of the salt water is second to none.
The only thing that the Saltron Mini and the Ace Salt System have in common is that they use regular sodium chloride to produce a more natural chlorine. That's it. The Saltron Mini is a stand alone product that gets mounted to the outside of the tub, where the Ace Salt System gets hardwired into the brain of the tub. The Saltron Mini ONLY produces chlorine, which uses more salt then the Ace System does- which means there is a possibility to you may still need ozone, or an MPS Shock for heavier bather load.
Ace produces a bundle of cleaners on a rotating basis to help keep your tub clean and clear.
Obviously there are some rare usage levels that can fluctuate usage on both types.
I really do enjoy the salt water aspect, however. It really does make it easy as long as you start it up correctly and really take time to learn what your needs are.
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I looked up the Saltron Mini and I would think you'd prefer a hot tub that has a circ pump associated with it for best results if you indeed purchase that aftermarket. But I really think the most important thing that you haven't asked is: Will installing this unit post-sale void warranty(s)? That should be the first question you ask.
Caldera (and Artesian and Marquis) has @ease offered in-line on their units and its new and possibly confusing. I was confused at first and I do this for a living, so your confusion is completely justified. Here is a blog I wrote about @ease: http://www.prestigepoolsandspas.com/blog/ease-a-really-cool-spa-sanitization-system
I'm not honking for @ease, I just think its pretty cool. Regardless- I'd put the sanitization aspect way low on the list if you're still deciding between the Hot Springs unit and the Caldera unit. Not to say your concerns aren't valid, but I think you're putting the cart before the horse: Pick out the brand, the unit and go from there.
Hope this helps. Good luck moving forward.
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Your choices are: Bromine (granular or tablet) Chlorine Granules, Ozone/Silver Ion/Non Chlorine Shock, or Biguanide based system....those are the methods that have been around forever. We offer all of those but as of late we are selling our Blu Fusion salt system at almost a 65% rate, our system produces Bromine, is very stable, has a solid 3 year warranty, and allows for a much softer/cleaner soaking experience, it also allows the customer to adjust the system easily which in turns allows for more "steady" bromine production therefore avoiding those nasty chemical "spikes"....We sell, install & orientate and support it which is very important like the poster above mentioned.
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Caldera (and Artesian and Marquis) has @ease offered in-line on their units and its new and possibly confusing. I was confused at first and I do this for a living, so your confusion is completely justified. Here is a blog I wrote about @ease: http://www.prestigepoolsandspas.com/blog/ease-a-really-cool-spa-sanitization-system
I'm not honking for @ease, I just think its pretty cool.
Hope this helps. Good luck moving forward.
Have you had any issues with Ph and alkalinity dropping significantly with the @ease? After a week of using mine, my levels were way down to almost not registering. Since returning to the dichlor method, my PH an AL have been stable. It did make it easy to maintain chlorine levels for the couple of weeks where I couldn't get out there everyday but it did cause me some small headaches to get my other levels back in line.
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I don’t think the device would void the warranty but putting salt in your tub might even if the salt level is less than that of a human tear. My tub was designed and sold to use bromine as @ease was not for sale then. When I figured out I didn’t care for bromine or the dispensing system and switched to Dichlor maybe I voided my warranty then as I was adding something different.
Fill me in what does the Ace system produce other than chlorine from the salt “bundle of cleaners”?
The question is what is in the tub that a mild salt solution would damage?
The saltron-mini has a selection knob that basically sets the hours per day it runs. My friend that has it has his set to 2 hours and it keeps his chlorine level right where it should be for 2 bathers. If he uses the tub hard he hits the cycle button and lets it run double that night. It is not tied to the brain of the tub and should be lifted out and put in the holder when using the tub. About the same thing you would do with a floating dispenser.
Changing salt to chlorine and killing something and then turning it back to salt is a simple science experiment.
For a first time buyer I understand the appeal of a system you don’t have to think about. But you end up thinking way more about it than you would think because it still needs shocked and PH balanced. The Dichlor or Dichlor and bleach method isn’t really that big of a jump as DIY and it keeps you engaged in the process. Going away for a week or two is the only real problem with that method I could see and @ease will fix that.
If I do switch to salt it won’t be for simplicity it will be because the water has a better feel in a salt tub.
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Caldera (and Artesian and Marquis) has @ease offered in-line on their units and its new and possibly confusing. I was confused at first and I do this for a living, so your confusion is completely justified. Here is a blog I wrote about @ease: http://www.prestigepoolsandspas.com/blog/ease-a-really-cool-spa-sanitization-system
I'm not honking for @ease, I just think its pretty cool.
Hope this helps. Good luck moving forward.
Have you had any issues with Ph and alkalinity dropping significantly with the @ease? After a week of using mine, my levels were way down to almost not registering. Since returning to the dichlor method, my PH an AL have been stable. It did make it easy to maintain chlorine levels for the couple of weeks where I couldn't get out there everyday but it did cause me some small headaches to get my other levels back in line.
I haven't had a real big issue with that relative to other sanitization methods. The funny thing with @ease, for me as a salesperson, is that when we put it on a tub in my showroom that didn't have a cover (save for solar cover at night), the system performed "okay."
When we had customers use it and kept their tub covered the feedback was all positive. Wonder if that has happened with other salespeople who have done @ease in their showroom.
The biggy with @ease is pH and alk: You need to keep them in-line (7.4-7.8, 80-120ppm, respectively) and I know that can be a turn-off, but pH imbalance leads to greater issues long term regardless and I prefer to get the cat out of the bag with water chemistry anyways. But that is just one way to do it. There are many ways to do water chemistry and I like them all (except biguianide, which voids our warranties).
The Saltron Mini preforms in the same fashion of a salt system for an in ground pool. I like salt systems in general but I am leery of the first generation of any product, and I don't know if it would void a brand warranty or not. But salt systems on in ground pools are amazing.
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The Ace Salt System produces Active Oxygen at it's initial start point. Once the system recognizes the tub is clean, it then cycles through a process to produce chlorine, Ozone, Hydrogen Peroxide, and MPS. This is one of the reasons it is considered a System, and not just a Chlorine Generator like many of the after market set ups.
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I have the Caldera Geneva and love it. I didn’t care much for the built in frog system as I started with bromine and my numbers were hard to control as mentioned above. Like mentioned I switched to a daily program of Dichlor and supplement liquid bleach once I get to the levels I like with the Dichlor as stabilizer. I have tried the @ease cartridges and they look like they would be the simplest solution but are a bit pricey. @ease is what I switch to if I’m going away for a week or more. The rest of the time I just add one tablespoon of Dichlor after we get out each night.
A salt converter is the system I would like the best. My friend added a converter and switched his tub to salt and it is wonderful. I might do the same thing. The one he bought is a saltron mini. Works and does the same thing the Ace does but a lot cheaper to keep running IMO. The smoothness of the salt water is second to none.
All the methods your exposure to harmful chemicals is very minimal far worse is what you get if you don’t sanitize enough. The biggest things we do is always shower before and moisturize after.
Both tubs are great tubs. If you have any specific questions about the Geneva please ask.
Hi bud16415, what color scheme did you go with for your hot tub? I think I will go with the slate cabinet and midnight canyon shell. I went to a dealer today to look at the Geneva and I've decided I will get this instead of the Envoy NXT. I just wish that I could see this color on a hot tub before I purchase it. I know that I can look at this color combination online. However, I'd like to see it in person. I plan to also use the frog system and see how that works for me.
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The Ace Salt System produces Active Oxygen at it's initial start point. Once the system recognizes the tub is clean, it then cycles through a process to produce chlorine, Ozone, Hydrogen Peroxide, and MPS. This is one of the reasons it is considered a System, and not just a Chlorine Generator like many of the after market set ups.
How does this thing create ozone, hydrogen peroxide and MPS (shock) ?
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The Diamond Electrode that is used in the Ace Salt System is what differentiates the System from the others. When this cell is energized, it reacts and breaks apart water molecules and combines them with the salt to create the cleaners. As I am not a scientific goddess, I am not aware of how the electrode when combined with the salt and water creates each individual cleaner with each molecule or however it is done.
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I have the Caldera Geneva and love it. I didn’t care much for the built in frog system as I started with bromine and my numbers were hard to control as mentioned above. Like mentioned I switched to a daily program of Dichlor and supplement liquid bleach once I get to the levels I like with the Dichlor as stabilizer. I have tried the @ease cartridges and they look like they would be the simplest solution but are a bit pricey. @ease is what I switch to if I’m going away for a week or more. The rest of the time I just add one tablespoon of Dichlor after we get out each night.
A salt converter is the system I would like the best. My friend added a converter and switched his tub to salt and it is wonderful. I might do the same thing. The one he bought is a saltron mini. Works and does the same thing the Ace does but a lot cheaper to keep running IMO. The smoothness of the salt water is second to none.
All the methods your exposure to harmful chemicals is very minimal far worse is what you get if you don’t sanitize enough. The biggest things we do is always shower before and moisturize after.
Both tubs are great tubs. If you have any specific questions about the Geneva please ask.
Hi bud16415, what color scheme did you go with for your hot tub? I think I will go with the slate cabinet and midnight canyon shell. I went to a dealer today to look at the Geneva and I've decided I will get this instead of the Envoy NXT. I just wish that I could see this color on a hot tub before I purchase it. I know that I can look at this color combination online. However, I'd like to see it in person. I plan to also use the frog system and see how that works for me.
We have the previous model of the Geneva and the case finishes were the old rustic wood look and ours is a reddish brown that blends with our deck well. Inside I can never remember if it is the pearl white or the white. No texture and very slick feeling on bare skin and also very easy to wipe down with a microfiber cloth. I liked the white as during the day the water looks slight blue tint and just sparkles and with the LED lights at night the white reflects and the tub just glows with whatever color combination you want. We mainly have it on blue, I like the emerald green and sometimes the gold color. They are all fun and set a mood. I just like to look down in the tub and if there is a speck on the floor, little stone or something it shows right up against the white. I judge the water quality a lot by sight and with the white you notice as soon as it loses its sparkle. For us lately that’s in about 4 months.
You will like the frog system. I would suggest starting with the @ease cartridges along with the minerals they like you to use. It is easier to switch from chlorine to bromine than the other way around.
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The Diamond Electrode that is used in the Ace Salt System is what differentiates the System from the others. When this cell is energized, it reacts and breaks apart water molecules and combines them with the salt to create the cleaners. As I am not a scientific goddess, I am not aware of how the electrode when combined with the salt and water creates each individual cleaner with each molecule or however it is done.
I don’t claim to be an expert on the Ace system. But that is quite the trick taking NaCl and H2O and producing all that using diamonds for an electrode.
Here is what their site says.
http://hotspringsupply.com/index.php/water-care/salt-based/ace-saltwater-sanitation-system.html?gclid=CjwKEAiA0fnFBRC6g8rgmICvrw0SJADx1_zAjiEJov6MnjKFCEfMJEjNGQkddnQ8qkIl57x3Phs9ohoCcRjw_wcB
it says generates chlorine and other “cleaners”. But doesn’t elaborate on all this other stuff. Here is The rest of the story from their site.
http://www.hotspring.com/ACEworks
I get the feeling stuff gets a little overstated between the company advertisement and the dealers overselling the concept. Quite similar to the amazing mineral cartridges I’m supposed to use in my tub. To me something like the saltron-mini does the exact same thing as the Ace system. Only as a cheap add on unit. Like I said I only know one person that has one and his water reacts to the salt and chlorine generation exactly the same way the Ace system does. Maybe it has diamonds also I don’t know.
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I had an Intex salt chlorine generator system for my above ground Intex pool, it ran for about 5 years but the unit got broken on a house move and now I have used regular chlorine tablets for the last 4 years.
The salt system was very easy to use and it kept track of the water balance letting you know if it went out of balance, the pool is used by our extended family, kids and grand kids and they all have commented that they want me to go back to the salt system as that felt better and was more enjoyable to swim in. The local stores stopped supplying salt based systems about the same time as my generator broke so was not able to replace it.
The one problem I did have was with the original circulation pump/filter was not powerful enough to push a good flow rate through the solar panels as well as the generator, if the solar panels were in line then the generator would give a low flow error and shut down, so I had to upgrade that too with a 1.5kW pump and sand filter and that allowed me to also put in another solar panel section without restricting the flow rate too much.
We have decided to retire the 18ft round Intex pool this year as we will be out the country a lot during the summer and for summer 2018 we are looking at putting in an inground pool of about 30ft x 15ft which is about as big as we can fit into the garden and still give plenty of walking room around it. Certainly for that we will go back to a salt system.
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Reading through the Ace Manuals. The wording has changed over the years, but previously stated those.
MPS shock apparently is only created when PH Decreaser is added to the water.
I doubt the mini is a diamond, considering it is patented.
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The Diamond Electrode that is used in the Ace Salt System is what differentiates the System from the others. When this cell is energized, it reacts and breaks apart water molecules and combines them with the salt to create the cleaners. As I am not a scientific goddess, I am not aware of how the electrode when combined with the salt and water creates each individual cleaner with each molecule or however it is done.
I don’t claim to be an expert on the Ace system. But that is quite the trick taking NaCl and H2O and producing all that using diamonds for an electrode.
Here is what their site says.
http://hotspringsupply.com/index.php/water-care/salt-based/ace-saltwater-sanitation-system.html?gclid=CjwKEAiA0fnFBRC6g8rgmICvrw0SJADx1_zAjiEJov6MnjKFCEfMJEjNGQkddnQ8qkIl57x3Phs9ohoCcRjw_wcB
it says generates chlorine and other “cleaners”. But doesn’t elaborate on all this other stuff. Here is The rest of the story from their site.
http://www.hotspring.com/ACEworks
I get the feeling stuff gets a little overstated between the company advertisement and the dealers overselling the concept. Quite similar to the amazing mineral cartridges I’m supposed to use in my tub. To me something like the saltron-mini does the exact same thing as the Ace system. Only as a cheap add on unit. Like I said I only know one person that has one and his water reacts to the salt and chlorine generation exactly the same way the Ace system does. Maybe it has diamonds also I don’t know.
To me it looks like they are taking the word "oxygen" and calling it MPS and Hydrogen Peroxide which in essence it is I believe, but not the same thing as Hydrogen peroxide or MPS. Ozone is a gas so I am not sure how it is creating that unless there is a spark and air in the same chamber as the diamond plate?
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The biggest difference I see between the Ace and the aftermarket standalone chlorine generator is about 500 bucks initially and then a couple hundred more plus a service charge when it comes time to replace the anode. The standalone you can clean yourself by sticking it in a glass of vinegar a few times per year. Other than that they both take pool salt and convert it to chlorine and give your spa the soft feel of salt. ;)
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It seems to be using the same standard process of real (read: not sodium bromide systems) salt systems to generate a sanitizer: Na is separated from Cl by positively charged and negatively charged plates, allowing the Cl to bond with the H, O, O of H2O to generate Hypochlorous Acid (the actual sanitizer in all forms of chlorine). This seems to happen after the initial sanitization by their Diamond product, which seems to be a form of ozone generation, which would make sense: The ozone breaks down the bacteria, then the salt system kicks on to establish a sanitizer level for later to keep the water clean when not in use and to establish a sanitizer level for the standard reasons.
No first-hand personal experience with this product but I am sure it performs admirably. I am also sure a Hot Springs expert can further explain the process but it seems to be relatively standard in the salt generating system community (again- not to knock the product).
The only questions I'd raise would have been touched on: What is the lifespan of the product, what is the cost of the replacement of the product, and what is the benefit of the product and can those benefits be achieved in a more cost-effective manner?
That is where the real truth lies.
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The other factor beyond cost is how saltwater feels and reacts with your skin. My opinion is it is much easier on you than water and Cl alone.
For the pros here a question. Is there any parts in a regular hot tub that a concentration of salt in the water would damage in the long term?
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The other factor beyond cost is how saltwater feels and reacts with your skin. My opinion is it is much easier on you than water and Cl alone.
For the pros here a question. Is there any parts in a regular hot tub that a concentration of salt in the water would damage in the long term?
And that is just the thing: I haven't seen a detailed warranty on a true salt system for hot tubs. Some "salt" systems are actually sodium bromide systems who, among other things, limit the corrosion of the metals that would likely happen from the more traditional salt systems.
On in ground pools not only does the generator build up with salt crystals over time naturally from the process of electrolysis, but in-pool steps and/or hand rails need to be pulled out every few weeks or so and their cups need to sprayed out with a hose to eliminate the corrosion build up or the cups will fail.
Knowing this, I wonder how it would affect things such as stainless jet covers, especially jets placed near the water line?
Additionally, in the first 15 years or so of the manufacturing of salt systems the quality of the apparatuses themselves were nominal at best. We've only seen real, genuine quality the last 5-10 years. I wonder how this plays into the salt systems for tubs? Hot Springs is the first to fully push a built-in NaCl salt system so we are at the mercy of them to provide info on the quality, which isn't the best way to find objective info. Thats why the language in the warranty will be the most telling thing. That, and a few years from now if other brands have incorporated NaCl salt systems into their products or not...
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It seems to be using the same standard process of real (read: not sodium bromide systems) salt systems to generate a sanitizer: Na is separated from Cl by positively charged and negatively charged plates, allowing the Cl to bond with the H, O, O of H2O to generate Hypochlorous Acid (the actual sanitizer in all forms of chlorine). This seems to happen after the initial sanitization by their Diamond product, which seems to be a form of ozone generation, which would make sense: The ozone breaks down the bacteria, then the salt system kicks on to establish a sanitizer level for later to keep the water clean when not in use and to establish a sanitizer level for the standard reasons.
No first-hand personal experience with this product but I am sure it performs admirably. I am also sure a Hot Springs expert can further explain the process but it seems to be relatively standard in the salt generating system community (again- not to knock the product).
The only questions I'd raise would have been touched on: What is the lifespan of the product, what is the cost of the replacement of the product, and what is the benefit of the product and can those benefits be achieved in a more cost-effective manner?
That is where the real truth lies.
Cost = I've see prices range from $1,295 to $1,695 at the time of spa purchase, price comes down to the individual dealer
Warranty = 1 year
Lifespan = the cell has a rated lifespan in hours, it works out to approx. 17-19 months of life under normal circumstances
Cell Cost = It was $800-$1,000 depending on install/etc. when I was selling Hot Spring
Does it work? = Yes, if educated and setup properly it works well, it softens the water, doesn't leave a residue on the skin, give the customer a "push button" adjustment on their sanitizer level (chlorine in the case of the ACE system)
Does 'Diamond Technology' really mean anything in terms of how it operates or added benefits to the consumer = Not really in my experience (I sold ACE from 2009-2015) the system operates as other chlorine based salt water systems work. I never personally noticed or experienced anything different due to any of their marketing hot points...diamond technology, creates multiple cleaners, etc.
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In comparison and I am not affiliated in any way with any products other than a home owner interested in maintain a healthy home spa within a reasonable budget. This is the breakdown on one product and I have seen several similar systems marketed but the saltron-mini to me seems to be the most straight forward of the cheap generators and built by a company that has been involved in this market for some time.
You can get the whole unit (saltron-mini II) for $172 on line. And the replacement cell costs $100. There could be an additional cost as you need a 120V GFCI outlet to plug the unit into. My spa disconnect 240V GFCI breaker has room inside to add one 120V GFCI breaker so I could easily tap into that to power one if I didn’t already have several 120V GFCI outlets around the deck. I would guess if you needed one added and didn’t have the skills to do it you would need to add $200 to cover that cost.
I only know one guy that has one and he went thru the gambit of sanitizer methods that many of us tried starting with Bromine. He has had the saltron-mini for 4 years now and I don’t believe he has changed the cell. He soaks it in vinegar once a month. His is an older unit and it didn’t have the reverse polarity they now talk about that is supposed to prevent build up on the anodes. His also didn’t habe the timer feature and he built his own timer to turn it on and off. The basic box and cell look the same as what is sold now. He uses 8 pounds of salt in his tub and it is a large tub. He said when he fills the tub he puts the pool salt in a plastic bowel and sets it on the seat and allows the salt to dissolve slowly in the water over a few hours then he powers the tub up and lets the jets mix it in. He warned me to stay away from any salt except pure pool salt he had tried the (Dead Sea) mineral salt and all the minerals did was mess with the cell. He does all the other normal maintenance I do except doesn’t add Cl.
Cost wise I don’t see a huge savings over granular / liquid Cl. There is the advantage of it being self-dispensing if you go away. His water life is really long, but that could be his usage also. The biggest benefit I have seen is the texture and feel of the water. It seems much less irritating to me and I have very sensitive skin. I guess I could add salt to my tub without a generator and still add Cl for sanitizer. I never heard of anyone doing that.
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Have looked at a lot of salt water systems and went with Arctic Spas new self automated Spa Boy Chlorine generated salt water system. I t is automated so that they have a seperate probe that monitors the chlorine level and turn on and off as needed.No more guess work.I t also monitors your ph levels in. your spa and notifies you on your topside controls when your ph is high. With their system you can also register your spa on their web based portal and be able to monitor and and control your spa from anywhere in the world that has internet. They also have a power management system that you can use especially if not using spa much and also with this feature you input how much you pay per kWh and it will let you know exactly how much your operating costs are for power.
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The vast majority of spas I've seen over the years that are running salt systems have evident corrosion at the heater and or chrome jets. Our customers that insist on salt systems end up replacing their heater within a couple of years. In my opinion, the @ease system is the way to go. We absolutely love it.
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never personally noticed or experienced anything different due to any of their marketing hot points...
BFSM, can I use this? ;D
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never personally noticed or experienced anything different due to any of their marketing hot points...
BFSM, can I use this? ;D
use it however you like buddy...when are you gonna come check out my new store? bring your checkbook, I know how you've been dying to buy a new Bullfrog with the exlusive JetPak technology ;D ;D
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never personally noticed or experienced anything different due to any of their marketing hot points...
BFSM, can I use this? ;D
use it however you like buddy...when are you gonna come check out my new store? bring your checkbook, I know how you've been dying to buy a new Bullfrog with the exlusive JetPak technology ;D ;D
Get any disposals or repos up north let me know. I'll go to Hinckley. Safest, cheapest guy around.