Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: sobe on July 30, 2004, 04:59:34 pm
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I wet tested both and ended up ordering the Optima although the Hot springs dealer was offering a 12 month no interest payments. I just felt that the jets on the optima were better placed and were more powerful.
I also tested the Grandee but again did not care for the motto jets.
Curious about all opinions!
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Here's my opinion!!!
I think you got a great tub! If it is the one that felt the best, I say you got the best tub!!!
May you always have hot bubbly water!!!
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Sobe, congrats! You will be very happy with the Optima. What colors did you order? We have marine/sierra, but we wanted sahara/sierra. My family was too impatient to wait the 6wks so we took one from stock.
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I did order the sahara with sierra and the optional stereo with the remote that controls the spa also.
I was just curious did anyone else feel the same about the Vista ao the Grande as i did regarding the jets?
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Actually, I was the opposite, sort of. We wet tested the optima then the vista. Sundance pushes the jet power sales angle pretty hard, at least my local sundance dealer did. He also had a little back chart with muscles on it and little red dots showing where their jets hit.
We wet tested the optima first and the jets almost flayed the skin off of my wife's back. Within 3 minutes our backs were numb. Our spa dealer was like Tim "the tool man" Taylor talking about a power tool. More HP! More HP! Harder! Harder! My wife sat in the center of the tub trying to escape the "therapy". :P
The sundance dealer spent a good 10 minutes bashing the moto massage and telling us what to look for that was lacking like... having to turn slightly from side t o side to get a fuller back massage.
We wet tested the vista and didn't like it. We decided to buy the optima.
We went back to the optima dealer and wet tested again. We were asking for prices, etc, and thought we were being asked to pay too much (I think $8800 for a closeout 2003 model).
We went back to the hot speing dealer and wet tested the grandee just to be sure and fell in love with it. The jet pressure was plenty. I liked it on full power, my wife liked it at about 60-70% power.
Why did we personally like it?
1) The optima jets on full made our backs red, itchy and numb within 3 minutes. Why pay for all that pump if you are going to keep the jets turned half-way down 90% of the time?
2) The moto-massage grew on us. Now it is our favorite seat. Thank goodness there are 2 on the grandee. When we first got in, we hated it. But that is the *only* jet I can sit in front of for 40-60 minutes while soaking. It just never tires out or itches or numbs my back. It is perfect for us. When we have parties people "fight" over those seats. Partly for the novelty and partly for the feeling.
3) The "move left and right" is a non-issue. We did it on the optima to try and more evening distribute the pain. ;) We did it on the grandee to better distribute the massage.
Since Sundance tries to make its jet power its main selling point I would say that a fair number of people feel the way you do about the jets. And there are plenty of happy optima owners on this board. While the optima is a well made tub from a good manufacturer, I wouldn't buy an optima if it cost $2k because I in no way enjoy its massage. So there is a different point of view.
If you enjoy your massage then it is the best tub for you. The Sundance dealers (at least mine) try and sell that it is the best massage for everyone and that is simply ridiculous.
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Glad to see your post about the Optima. My family and I were not fond of it for exactly the same reasons about the jets. I know other folks that just love the spa, but it wasn't for us.
I was hoping that same jet issue would not be the case with the Envoy, which I am leaning toward but havent wet tested. I did wet test the Vista and had to turn the power down like your wife. Is this spa going to be too much power for me or will I grow to like having everything operating at once at a more comfortable jet pressure? Does that make the operating cost higher?
Thanks, I'm hoping to decide in the next few days between the Envoy or a Marquis Reward.
IonHeaven
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I'll "third" that.
The Optima was the one that I had my eye on before wet testing. I really wanted to enjoy it more, but it wasn't the kink of massage we could enjoy for any decent amount of time. We would have been spending our time harnessing the power. The idea of having the extra power was attractive at first but I let go of the idea and saved a few grand on a Jacuzzi J-365. There are a lot of people on here that love them though.
Buckeye
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I do not understand these comments on the Optima being overpowered. I own one and every seat and every jet have endless adjustments for water control/pressure. The jets themselves can be dialed up or down by turning the rings, some jets can have direction changed, diverters can turn seats on, off or adjust it anywhere inbetween. I've never left my tub with red, itchy skin or numbness or skin flayed off.
If you sat in a seat with high power for 3min, and didnt learn to adjust the jets or ask for help on how to divert the power from that seat until it felt comfortable, then you wasted your wet test. These comments are silly and unjust.
And why pay for such power? I have 5 in my family and most of the time there are at least 3 in our tub. We paid for that power so that all 4 seats plus our footwell would be sufficiently powered at the SAME TIME. We were in the J365, with 2 pretty good sized pumps. If the 4 of us ran all 4 seats and footwell, none of us had enuf power. So we would divert to 2 seats at a time, then wait our turn to get power back. Not a good situation. So, I paid more for power to have options.
Buckeye: I dont spend all my time in my Optima trying to harness its power, instead, I spent 5min learning how to properly adjust and use it when I first got in. Congrats on your Jacuzzi.
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We wet tested the optima first and the jets almost flayed the skin off of my wife's back. Within 3 minutes our backs were numb. ... My wife sat in the center of the tub trying to escape the "therapy". :P
The sundance dealer spent a good 10 minutes bashing the moto massage and telling us what to look for that was lacking like... having to turn slightly from side to side to get a fuller back massage.
3) The "move left and right" is a non-issue. We did it on the optima to try and more evenly distribute the pain. ;) We did it on the grandee to better distribute the massage.
Nicely said. And I know you'll keep on enjoying it for years to come.
May you soak long and prosper!
;)
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I do not understand these comments on the Optima being overpowered. Â I own one and every seat and every jet have endless adjustments for water control/pressure. Â The jets themselves can be dialed up or down by turning the rings, some jets can have direction changed, diverters can turn seats on, off or adjust it anywhere inbetween. Â I've never left my tub with red, itchy skin or numbness or skin flayed off. Â
Spoken like an optima owner. Â No one is bashing your decision, and you don't need to justify yourself.
Are you sure you still have skin on your back? If you are truly offended by these posts then the skin can't be that thick, which I directly attribute to sitting in an optima and getting your skin flayed off! Â ;)
Had we bought an optima we would have personally kept the jets throttled low 90% of the time because 90% of the time it is me and my wife. Â We have friends over for the spa about twice a month, I guess, on average. Â
My friend owns a cameo and I have posted it many times before, when he fills it with people they politely ask him to just use the bubbler. Â When I fill my grandee with people we jet away.
Your back may be different. The optima is a tub that sells very well and it is because people really like it and enjoy the jets. Â But you simply must understand that there is some subset of the population that does not enjoy the kind of experience that the optima gives you. Â My friend with the cameo proudly says that after 10 minutes in front of some jet in his tub his back is 100% numb and he gets a great night sleep. To him that experience is terrific. To me it was horrific. But those are opinions, and an opinion, plus a quarter, will get you a quarter. Â ::)
peace.
-Ed
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Calico... keep your quarter and I'll keep mine.
First off - I ended my last post on this thread with "Alot of people on here love them though" in regards to Optima owners - yourself inluded (obviously).
The Optima's massage just wasn't for me. Most of the time we'll have only 2 of us in the tub. We don't need that much pressure. Furthermore, I will say that MY OPINION was that regarless of where I placed the diverters on the Optima, I would want to turn down some of the individual jets. So, if there were 7 people in an Optima, and they were all ME, some of those 7 would be turning individual jets down. Enough said.
If I wanted to make "silly and unjust comments", I would probably start by making it crystal clear that anybody who couldn't enjoy the message characteristics of an Optima must be incapable of learning how to either adjust the controls or else ask for help. Please... their controls aren't layed out very well, but I don't think they're astrophysics.
Didn't you have a J-365 on order and cancel it? If so, I'm think that making the switch mid-stream was the right thing to do for you. The last thing any of us want to do is second guess not buying something over what you've spent a great deal of money on. In this case however it sounds to me like your trying to justify your decision to us - and I could care less. You don't have to defend anything to me - I'm still waiting on my J-365 to be delivered. Before buying it we tried it with everything running - middle on the diverters, all jets full-on, and every seat was good FOR US. I did try a Sweeterwater tub out and was disapointed in it's pressure, but I never thought that anybody who would prefer it's message over a Jacuzzi was just flat-out wrong. To each their own.
If I had an Optima, as I've said before, I would be completely happy with it. I would just turn down the individual jets on certain seats to get the message I wanted. I didn't get one because I could get a J-365 that when running on full power, diverters in the middle, I'm a very happy camper in any seat. With that said, saving a couple grand made this an easy decision for me (well maybe Ed and Ion too). MY opinion would be that a guest in an Optima tub would be more apt to wanting to turn the jets down, than a guest in a J-365 would be in wanting to turn the power up. But that's just me, and that's why I bought what I did and you bought what you did. It's cool, we can disagree, but if your going to be insulting what someone's personal opinion is towards whatever - I could honestly care less about that. Enjoy your tub.
Buckeye
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Not trying to justify my decision trying to help others that might believe that the Optima can not have water pressure to each seat adjusted from your friends numb back (yuck) to a trickle if you wish. So for those of you still trying to make a decision let me try one more to get the facts out then you can wet test (make sure you know how to adjust controls because who knows what the dealer will do) and make a fair comparison.
Optima is a two pump tub with Pump 1 being two speeds. Pump 1 is used on three of the four seats and can be controlled from low to high to adjust water flow. Low speed would help save electricity for those of you that like a light massage. Of course all jets in these three seats can be adjusted also from off to high to help control massage level. Six of the eight adjustable jets on these three seats can also be changed from pulsating to straight flow. Then we have the air knob that can be controlled like a volume control on a radio to adjust air and power to these three seats. Now with all that control you can also divert water from these three seats (all or just a little) to the two whirlpool jets to have the water movement start circling around you. Now we will move to Pump 2 that is used for foot well jets and the Therapy Seat (Therapy Seat that means high pressure). Pump 2 has one high speed and will give you a powerful massage, if you have full power to that one seat which it is designed to do. Those of you that do not like that much power can move the diverter to move more water to the foot well so you get a foot massage at the same time and also share with any others in the tub. Therapy is used for a short time at full power and more likely would be pumping less to that seat to match the other three seats and give you a foot massage at the same time. When I am in alone I use the Therapy seat and the foot massage to give me a relaxing soft massage on my back plus my feett, calves and legs a nice relaxing massage. This allows me to leave pump one off to not waste electricity. With two more air controls for the Therapy Seat, one for the foot jets, one for the whirlpool and the one mention earlier for the three non therapy seats you have complete control of power not by harnessing it but by using the right pumps at the correct speed to control what ever your pleasure is that day.
I hope this helps others that have been misled by a dealer trying to show power instead of showing both power and water control. As seen above the dealer has completely convinced customers that this tub is used for a high pressure pounding massage instead of that it has the control to give you that if it is what you want (maybe for a athlete). Good luck on all that will buying soon and please wet test with some knowledge of tub control and do not put you backs in the hands of “Tim The Toolman†dealer that think more power is the best selling feature.
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Excellent description, Calico!!
Brewman
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Calico,
Great discription! I'm getting the Cameo instead of the Optima but it works pretty much the same way. You explained it better than my dealer, although they did a pretty good job of showing me the different water flow/pressure options.
BTW, at my dealer there are at least 4 salesmen. Some of them push the "more power" line with power itself being the most important thing while not explaining HOW it becomes important, while the more experienced ones explain how that power can be utilized properly as you described in your post.
Thanks for a great explanation.
Netnutty
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Buckeye: I wasnt badmouthing any tub, esp not Jacuzzi. Yes, we were going to buy one, even tho we knew we wanted the Optima. We cancelled and went with our gut on that one. Your point is?
I wasnt bashing any other tub nor am I selling Optimas nor do I have to justify or defend my purchase here, as you seem to think I was doing. The sole point of my post was to help others (who read here trying to make decisions) understand that there are endless options in water control for the Sundance tubs. That was all, sorry you misunderstood and took it as an attack.
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You should sell hot tubs calico! As for me I have a hard time adjusting individual jets. Its hard on my sore hand. The slippery metal things to lower the jets on the optima made it even more difficult for me. The easiest ones for me to turn were on the Beachcomber. However, for neck/shoulder therapy I'm back to the HS and though I did not wet test the Envoy I did wet test the Vista. I found enough control without having to turn individual jets, which for me is important. The Marquis Reward has excellent control without dealing with individual jets.
All this analyzing features keeps making me sway back and forth...but I know how helpful reading these posts have been to me, so I though I'd add my 2 cents (maybe less).
Reading all this stuff has helped me to be aware of what I was looking for and how to compare wet tests. Wet testing is such an important part of this decision, I hope I don't make the wrong choice purchasing an Envoy that I was not able to wet test.
Hope to be soaking soon. IonHeaven
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Ion, what you just mentioned, thats the kind of info I found so helpful when I was searching on tub models. I took lots of notes and it helped me to ask more questions and look at details when testing.
I'm in banking, not hot tub sales!
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Sobe,
I didn't think I cared for the motomassage at first either, but it definately grew on me. I would prefer the Vista over the Grandee since for me one moto massage would be enough and I really liked the captain's seat in the Vista.
Though I loved the Vista, I need to go a bit smaller, so I'm still considering ordering the un-wet tested Envoy... hoping it will fit my needs.
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I hope this helps others that have been misled by a dealer trying to show power instead of showing both power and water control.  As seen above the dealer has completely convinced customers that this tub is used for a high pressure pounding massage instead of that it has the control to give you that if it is what you want (maybe for a athlete).  Good luck on all that will buying soon and please wet test with some knowledge of tub control and do not put you backs in the hands of “Tim The Toolman†dealer that think more power is the best selling feature.
Agreed. You will notice that the post that started it all said the optima jets were more "powerful" and "better placed". Certainly Sundance has put very powerful pumps in their tub, and I am sure the price reflects it! I personally doubt that dealers completely miss the complexities of diverter settings. The posters on the wall of my Sundance dealer show the fluidex (sp?) pounding away! 8)
Perhaps specifically for those who get caught by a "Tim the Toolman" dealer:
1) Sundance dealers may push the jet power and infer that all other tubs are underpowered and that is misleading.
2) Sundance dealers may state that their jets hit muscles better than other tubs. I'm sure the little blow-up of the muscles of the back wasn't hand-drawn by my specific dealer! That claim is also misleading.
The optima has varied speed pumps, as do some other tubs. The pros/cons of such pumps was a line of disucssion on this board already. Some love it, some don't.
The optima has diverters, as do most tubs. The optima has individually settable jets, as do most tubs. Some tubs also allow you to pop off one type of jet and put on another to better customize your massage. This can be good or bad (customization versus possibly cheap construction).
Most tubs of this size by major manufacturers can make quite a sizable list of permutations of massage type based on pump power, diverter setting, and jet type.
Some people like the foot dome, others feel it keeps people's legs too close together when the tub is full. Some people love the handles (we did) others think they are ugly. Some people like the stainless steel jets, others feel they are hard to turn. Some people love the pop-up speakers, some find them horrendous. Some people, possibly atheletes, may really need the back-numbing poundings. A vast majority of soakers, however, do not.
The decision to purchase an optima, or any tub, is a combination of all of these things and deciding which things are important for you. The optima is not the "killer-app" tub and many dealers trick inexperienced buyers into the power and placement debate. Does that mean it is a bad tub? For me it sure is! For you it sure isn't!
But it doesn't mean that people that do the evaluation and reject it for something which, to them, is 10 times better, are incapable of understanding the true optima offerings. And that opinion *is* directed at people who are currently wet testing and are unsure of how to evaluate a wet test.
Actually, we should leave the word "optima" out of it, start a new topic on how to wet test, and see how people use those tests to make purchasing decisions.
Peace.
-Ed
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Of course all jets in these three seats can be adjusted also from off to high to help control massage level.
Just a small point, some hot tub manufacturers, and I honestly do not know if Sundance is one of them, strongly recommend that you do not turn all of the jets on a particular pump off or on low because of the stress it puts on the pump (or jets) or something. Maybe someone with more technical plumbing knowledge or a dealer can expand on that if it is the case.
-Ed
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It is explained in the Optima (sorry for uttering the "O" word, seems to be an evil thing in this thread) owners manual to keep a minimum of 6 jets open, if I recall.
The exact number may not be correct, I don't have my manual handy.
BTW, the seats that have the individually adjustable jets are on a 2 speed pump, which delivers a lower intensity massage when run at the lower speed.
Brewman
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I guess that buying a hot tub is a very personal experience and everyone has his or hers opinion which might be based upon a multiple factors. I think either of the companies hot tubs are rated very high and you can't go wrong with either.
Wet testing different hot tubs is the key.
Happy Hot Tubbing....
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Sobe,
You make the best point out of every post in this thread. Both brands make quality tubs, and both have excellent reputations. You can’t go wrong with either.
Chris H
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we went through a similar discussion when we wet tested spas, and you can throw the Marquis Reward into the mix.
we wound up with the grandee. Personally, I like the moto-massage, but also the other non-corner seats get as much if not more time in the grandee. Not that the moto massage is bad, but they are more functional than the seats in the optima.
another thing that influenced the decision was that the bench seats in the grandee were more accomodating for moving from seat to seat, and even turning sideways for a lounger effect. while the optima seats were more deeply contoured "buckets" and less accomodating to conversation.
Honestly, I think we would be happy with any of the tubs, but have no regrets with the choice of the grandee.
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oh yeah... one other thing... beer holders...
verrrry important.....don't want to rech too far for the brew..
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Good point about the beer holders. I'll have to add that to my list of things to check out when I FINALLY get to wet test the Envoy I'm interested in tomorrow!
IonHeaven