Hot Tub Forum
Brand Specific Forums => Bullfrog Spas => Topic started by: sue_in_texas on September 14, 2015, 02:14:19 pm
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What are your thoughts on the Bullfrog technology with their jetpacks? It seems to be a big divergence from all the other hot tub manufacturers? Is it just hype? What's your experience? Are they less prone to leaking? Are they reliable? I like the fact that it is so customizable, etc???
Thanks~~
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For initially customizing your spa, they're GREAT! I've never heard of anyone changing them after purchase though (so that part I consider hype [though, it does remain a viable option]...IMO). Minor leaks, which can happen in any spa, don't really matter in the jet packs, as they simply drip into the spa. They're probably a wee bit more energy efficient as there's less plumbing around the outside of the shell, closer to the outside cold air.
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I'm not sure I'd consider it technology, but spa manufactures like to throw that word around a lot. In shopping to replace my 15+ year old hot tub, you find that there isn't much technology advancement short of LED lighting and some of the overpriced entertainment system options. It's still just an expensive big bucket with pumps, jets and a heater. :p
That said, I just ordered a Bullfrog R7. Before we ordered, we spent an hour or more at the dealer, in their tub, swapping jet packs around to decide which ones to get. It was great, and we'll end up with a hot tub with jets we really like in every seat. I realize that I'll probably never get more or different packs, as they are quite expensive to get separate.
I'm getting a new tub after spending too much time over the last few years fixing leaks in my old Dimension1. The Bullfrog has less plumbing, so that's a good thing to me. I wish everyone could use the FiberCore insulation that Watkins tubs are using, but I imagine there's a patent involved in all that. That was the main reason I looked at Hot Spring, but I just liked the Bullfrog better in every other way so will just hope to improve my odds of having to go digging through foam.
Bullfrog is one of the few that are actually doing something different in this industry. Some will say it's a gimmick. OK fine, but I still got to customize each seat in my tub the way I want. Even if I never change them, I still got it my way the first time and have fewer leak opportunities to cause trouble down the road.
Also, if you search and find complaints about the water getting funky behind the jetpaks, these are all older tubs. They redesigned the packs in 2013 to make them much better, plug in at the bottom, easier to swap out and the old ones still had plumbing behind them, the new ones use a manifold design that's much cleaner.
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Also, if you search and find complaints about the water getting funky behind the jetpaks, these are all older tubs. They redesigned the packs in 2013 to make them much better, plug in at the bottom, easier to swap out and the old ones still had plumbing behind them, the new ones use a manifold design that's much cleaner.
Note also that they now have a water exchange circuit behind each jet pak so the funky issue should be an issue no more.
Oh and the whole 90% less plumbing thing? Ya...less turbulence, 80% fewer holes drilled in the tub, less surface area (tubing) to lose heat = better technology, IMO.
Conventional (old tech) spa
(http://www.clearwaterpools.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/theirspa.jpg)
Bullfrog spa
(http://www.mtbullfrogspas.com/uploads/2/7/5/6/27569849/4596617_orig.jpg)
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Also, with the jetpacks you can have all of them on at full power without diverting power from some seats to get sufficient power at others, which is the case on other brands that have diverter valves.
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The argument that you can get maximum power in every seat is not a good one. It may appear that you are getting maximum power, but that's only because the JetPaks are restricting the flow. With a properly designed diverter valve you can take power from an entire pump and focus it on one seat, rather than waste power in unused seats.
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The argument that you can get maximum power in every seat is not a good one. It may appear that you are getting maximum power, but that's only because the JetPaks are restricting the flow. With a properly designed diverter valve you can take power from an entire pump and focus it on one seat, rather than waste power in unused seats.
Since each JetPak has a flow control valve on it you can do the same thing with them as with a tub that has a diverter valve. You do get more control with the BF design.
Why do you believe the JetPak design is "restricting the flow"? BF has done studies in fluid dynamics on their design that indicate otherwise.
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I've always rolled my eyes at the 90% less plumbing sales pitch but now I see the spa they're comparing it to lol. It looks like its one of those off brands where they put 100 jets in it and the hilarious part is how poorly its plumbed, its ludicrous. Look at all those hanging hoses that are FAR longer than necessary which simply adds cost and increases friction and is hard to believe anyone would actually do that. Was that really another brand or was that someone in Marketing telling the Engineers to make a sample for the photo and really do a sloppy job so it shows a ton of unnecessary hose? Its like Cadillac touting their car by showing it next to a Yugo.
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Yeah, that does seem to be an extreme example, but that's advertising! But 90% or 50%, it's still a lot less plumbing and fewer fittings buried in foam. After fixing a dozen or so leaks in my old tub, I started referring to jets as "leak opportunities". So the fewer the better. If it's more efficient too, then bonus!
As for diverter valve or not... you can shut down any seat you want if you're worried about "wasting power". And maybe on the one pump models you might want to. But with two pumps and all the seats wide open, there is a lot of jet power in every seat. So if the JetPaks are restricting the flow or wasting power, you sure don't notice.
You want "technology" in the tub? How about variable speed pumps? That would be nice.
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OK, so let's actually figure it out.
Here's a Sundance Spa. Is that more relevant to you?
(http://www.sundancespasoforangecounty.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/difference-technology.jpg)
QCA Spa...looks pretty tidy, no?
(http://1800poolparts.com/images/docs/cutaway-lg_thum.JPG)
Bullfrog view
(http://www.poolandspa.com/images005/pool-and-spa-6.jpg)
So I see ~ 40 - 50 tubes on the 2 sides of the Sundance shown. I count 6-10 on the BF tub. So 40 (at a minimum) vs 10. That's a lot better than 90% less plumbing, no?
I agree on the variable speed pumps. No reason I can think of that they shouldn't be used. They're a lot more money, but very reliable.
I'm sure there's a lot of advancements that could be made, but I suspect as long as people don't know and keep buying what's being offered, there will be no reason for companies to do more than add more lights, waterfalls, speakers and wifi stuff to keep the selling going.
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VSP's are also physically bigger pumps so there are also some limitations there. They are common in pools and they work well in pools with tubs attached. And they work better with downstream filtration which is not as efficient as suction filtration, which all/most hot tubs are. Of course I have always wondered why pools use downstream filtration? Does a sand filter work better with downstream filtration? There was a company that used VSP's in their tubs? Who was that?
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There was a company that used VSP's in their tubs? Who was that?
I remember seeing them some years ago at a show in Vegas. Very cool...but hideously expensive.
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Pentair Inteliflow.
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The jet variety and the ability to move the JetPaks to different seats (all of which are varying heights) is definitely not hype...its a really cool feature that allows a lot variety in the jetting and the ability for people of varying heights to get as comfortable as possible in the spa. I was just at the factory in Utah this past week and they also run a very "tight ship" as far as quality control at the factory is concerned and also have a nice system in place so that errors in the field can be reported and corrected VERY quickly. Best thing to do is shop around a bit and do some wet testing to find something that is comfortable for you and your family
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I'd rather move my butt to a different seat rather than have to move a jet pac. But that's just me. Seems wet testing is even more important. Like we always say.
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I'd rather move my butt to a different seat rather than have to move a jet pac. But that's just me. Seems wet testing is even more important. Like we always say.
and you can certainly still do that in a Bullfrog, its just nice to be able to move your favorite jets to seats of varying heights to accommodate a spouse or family member that may be 5" taller or 5" shorter and also just to have jets "hit" your back/shoulders/neck at different points due to the difference in height(s) among the seats. Just because they have 16 different Paks doesn't mean they are forcing you to move anything around, heck you could keep the same JetPaks in the same seats for 10 years if you'd like, its merely about having options that no other spa company can offer. And yes regardless of all that I will always still recommend a wet test to make sure any spa you are looking at purchasing fits your needs perfectly.
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Guess what Tman... You don't have to move a jetpack, you can still just move your butt to a different seat. You can enjoy it just like any other tub where you don't have the option.
I will say that several other brand/models we looked at were quickly eliminated from consideration simply because the "good seats" were not where I wanted them. My tub sits in a corner and I don't care how awesome the massage is, I don't want to be facing the corner. Likewise the seats that allow me to relax and look out over my backyard gardens should have jets I like, as that's where I want to sit. Bullfrog lets me set it up how I want it. If this came with some obvious sacrifice I could see your point, but so far, I haven't found a downside to the modular design. You don't like it, I see that, I just haven't read a good reason why.
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I'd rather move my butt to a different seat rather than have to move a jet pac. But that's just me. Seems wet testing is even more important. Like we always say.
and you can certainly still do that in a Bullfrog, its just nice to be able to move your favorite jets to seats of varying heights to accommodate a spouse or family member that may be 5" taller or 5" shorter and also just to have jets "hit" your back/shoulders/neck at different points due to the difference in height(s) among the seats. Just because they have 16 different Paks doesn't mean they are forcing you to move anything around, heck you could keep the same JetPaks in the same seats for 10 years if you'd like, its merely about having options that no other spa company can offer. And yes regardless of all that I will always still recommend a wet test to make sure any spa you are looking at purchasing fits your needs perfectly.
But all tubs have different height seats so the jets hit you in different spots.
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But all tubs have different height seats so the jets hit you in different spots.
Are you really this obtuse or are you just screwing with us?
OK, let's pick the Hot Spring Moto Massage... since people tend to rave about it. What do you do when the moto massage is in the deep seat and you're 5' tall? Or they put it in the shallow seat and you're 6'5"? Or the lounge, but you float out of it? But you really want a moto massage?
It's all about having options! Bullfrogs are the perfect tub for people who don't deal well with commitment ;D
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But all tubs have different height seats so the jets hit you in different spots.
It's all about having options! Bullfrogs are the perfect tub for people who don't deal well with commitment ;D
or those who recognize innovation and flexibility in a product they're likely to have around for 10 years.
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Yeah, that too ;)
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Yes MarKee, as a matter of fact getting maximum power at every seat actually is a good argument because it's true. It doesn't "appear" that you are getting maximum power, you are getting it. And the jet packs do not restrict the flow as you incorrectly stated.
As I explained, every seat in a BF has maximum flow (or you can adjust each seat as you like individually). You don't have to mess with diverter valves which sacrifice power at some seats just to get full power at only one seat, which you seem to think is an advantage. What about the people sitting in those other seats who also want full power? Too bad for them if they're not in a BF.
That's the beauty of the BF design, every seat can choose exactly the amount of power they want from full to nothing without forcing other seats to have or less.
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Yes MarKee, as a matter of fact getting maximum power at every seat actually is a good argument because it's true. It doesn't "appear" that you are getting maximum power, you are getting it. And the jet packs do not restrict the flow as you incorrectly stated.
As I explained, every seat in a BF has maximum flow (or you can adjust each seat as you like individually). You don't have to mess with diverter valves which sacrifice power at some seats just to get full power at only one seat, which you seem to think is an advantage. What about the people sitting in those other seats who also want full power? Too bad for them if they're not in a BF.
That's the beauty of the BF design, every seat can choose exactly the amount of power they want from full to nothing without forcing other seats to have or less.
So if you turn all but one seat off the flow stays the same in that seat? That's impossible. Bullfrog's have divereters like most other spas they are just in a different spot
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Yes MarKee, as a matter of fact getting maximum power at every seat actually is a good argument because it's true. It doesn't "appear" that you are getting maximum power, you are getting it. And the jet packs do not restrict the flow as you incorrectly stated.
As I explained, every seat in a BF has maximum flow (or you can adjust each seat as you like individually). You don't have to mess with diverter valves which sacrifice power at some seats just to get full power at only one seat, which you seem to think is an advantage. What about the people sitting in those other seats who also want full power? Too bad for them if they're not in a BF.
That's the beauty of the BF design, every seat can choose exactly the amount of power they want from full to nothing without forcing other seats to have or less.
So if you turn all but one seat off the flow stays the same in that seat? That's impossible. Bullfrog's have divereters like most other spas they are just in a different spot
fortunately there isn't 10 of them like some spas and the fail rate is 1000% less than a tradtitional "topside" diverters
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I see jet pacs as a gimmick to sell tubs. No one ever buys extra. After a little while they never change them around. Seems to me if your buying a BF you had better wet test because what if it feels lousy, all the jet pacs, no matter where you put them. Or maybe buy all of them. Or just buy what the dealer steers you to. To me it's not technology, it's a gimmick to help sell a tub that's nothing more than, well OK? The pacs and the way they are mounted look clunky to me. There's more surface to clean when you clean your tub. And I cleaned mine a lot.
There's a whole lot of better tubs out there in my opinion. And whoever said 10 years, it better be longer than that. Great tubs last 20 or more.
And I don't care for the HS moto massage either. After 20+ years of ownership of different brands I like a certain feel and neither BF or HS give it to me. I would hope everyone finds there "feel" and are not steered to a brand because of some gimmick.
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Yes MarKee, as a matter of fact getting maximum power at every seat actually is a good argument because it's true. It doesn't "appear" that you are getting maximum power, you are getting it. And the jet packs do not restrict the flow as you incorrectly stated.
As I explained, every seat in a BF has maximum flow (or you can adjust each seat as you like individually). You don't have to mess with diverter valves which sacrifice power at some seats just to get full power at only one seat, which you seem to think is an advantage. What about the people sitting in those other seats who also want full power? Too bad for them if they're not in a BF.
That's the beauty of the BF design, every seat can choose exactly the amount of power they want from full to nothing without forcing other seats to have or less.
So if you turn all but one seat off the flow stays the same in that seat? That's impossible. Bullfrog's have divereters like most other spas they are just in a different spot
fortunately there isn't 10 of them like some spas and the fail rate is 1000% less than a tradtitional "topside" diverters
Correct but if it fails don't you have to replace the entire jetpak? I don't believe there is a way to fix them
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Yes MarKee, as a matter of fact getting maximum power at every seat actually is a good argument because it's true. It doesn't "appear" that you are getting maximum power, you are getting it. And the jet packs do not restrict the flow as you incorrectly stated.
As I explained, every seat in a BF has maximum flow (or you can adjust each seat as you like individually). You don't have to mess with diverter valves which sacrifice power at some seats just to get full power at only one seat, which you seem to think is an advantage. What about the people sitting in those other seats who also want full power? Too bad for them if they're not in a BF.
That's the beauty of the BF design, every seat can choose exactly the amount of power they want from full to nothing without forcing other seats to have or less.
So if you turn all but one seat off the flow stays the same in that seat? That's impossible. Bullfrog's have divereters like most other spas they are just in a different spot
I didn't discuss turning off all the seats except one; that's an irrelevant point since the whole purpose of a spa is to have all the seats on so people can enjoy them. Of course the flow to one seat would increase if you turned everything else off, but why does that matter? My point was that everyone can enjoy full power at their seat, or less if they want, without sacrificing power at another seat, which no other spa can do they way BF does because they all force you to divert flow from one seat in order to get max flow at another.
I'm not saying that other spas don't have sufficient power, or aren't quality spas, or don't have nice features, or that BF is the only way to go. I'm simply explaining that a nice feature of a BF is that the design allows for individually adjustable power at each seat and that you don't lose a significant amount of power at one seat to get more power at another.
I tested several other brands and every time they would say, "Ok, sit in this seat and I'll adjust the diverter so you can get full power". Then I would say, "Great, now keep me at full power and let my wife feel full power at her seat too". And all the salesman would start making excuses about why they couldn't do that, or I would never really want full power at more than one seat, or just fiddle around with all these diverter settings to get some sort of balance of medium power, etc.
If that works for someone, great. For me the BF system made much more sense.
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I see jet pacs as a gimmick to sell tubs. No one ever buys extra. After a little while they never change them around. Seems to me if your buying a BF you had better wet test because what if it feels lousy, all the jet pacs, no matter where you put them. Or maybe buy all of them. Or just buy what the dealer steers you to. To me it's not technology, it's a gimmick to help sell a tub that's nothing more than, well OK? The pacs and the way they are mounted look clunky to me. There's more surface to clean when you clean your tub. And I cleaned mine a lot.
There's a whole lot of better tubs out there in my opinion. And whoever said 10 years, it better be longer than that. Great tubs last 20 or more.
And I don't care for the HS moto massage either. After 20+ years of ownership of different brands I like a certain feel and neither BF or HS give it to me. I would hope everyone finds there "feel" and are not steered to a brand because of some gimmick.
Big and Clunky? I'd get a refund from your eye doctor if I was you :-)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2r2n514.jpg)
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Yes MarKee, as a matter of fact getting maximum power at every seat actually is a good argument because it's true. It doesn't "appear" that you are getting maximum power, you are getting it. And the jet packs do not restrict the flow as you incorrectly stated.
As I explained, every seat in a BF has maximum flow (or you can adjust each seat as you like individually). You don't have to mess with diverter valves which sacrifice power at some seats just to get full power at only one seat, which you seem to think is an advantage. What about the people sitting in those other seats who also want full power? Too bad for them if they're not in a BF.
That's the beauty of the BF design, every seat can choose exactly the amount of power they want from full to nothing without forcing other seats to have or less.
So if you turn all but one seat off the flow stays the same in that seat? That's impossible. Bullfrog's have divereters like most other spas they are just in a different spot
I didn't discuss turning off all the seats except one; that's an irrelevant point since the whole purpose of a spa is to have all the seats on so people can enjoy them. Of course the flow to one seat would increase if you turned everything else off, but why does that matter? My point was that everyone can enjoy full power at their seat, or less if they want, without sacrificing power at another seat, which no other spa can do they way BF does because they all force you to divert flow from one seat in order to get max flow at another.
I'm not saying that other spas don't have sufficient power, or aren't quality spas, or don't have nice features, or that BF is the only way to go. I'm simply explaining that a nice feature of a BF is that the design allows for individually adjustable power at each seat and that you don't lose a significant amount of power at one seat to get more power at another.
I tested several other brands and every time they would say, "Ok, sit in this seat and I'll adjust the diverter so you can get full power". Then I would say, "Great, now keep me at full power and let my wife feel full power at her seat too". And all the salesman would start making excuses about why they couldn't do that, or I would never really want full power at more than one seat, or just fiddle around with all these diverter settings to get some sort of balance of medium power, etc.
If that works for someone, great. For me the BF system made much more sense.
Then it's not full power at every seat if you turn divertors and more flow goes to other seats. Glad you are enjoying your Tub. BF absolutely makes a fine product and are a top of the line spa. Hope you have many trouble free years with it
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Although we don't own a Bullfrog, I actually like some of the things they've done with their spas. I would have looked more closely at them when we were buying if they had a size that suited us. Having said this, I find the argument that you get "full power" at every seat laughable. It's just not possible, unless of course each seat has its' own pump and I don't believe that's the case with Bullfrog.
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I see jet pacs as a gimmick to sell tubs. No one ever buys extra. After a little while they never change them around. Seems to me if your buying a BF you had better wet test because what if it feels lousy, all the jet pacs, no matter where you put them. Or maybe buy all of them. Or just buy what the dealer steers you to.
Dude, they aren't baseball cards. Nobody is trying to turn buying and trading JetPacks into a hobby.
And "if your buying a BF you had better wet test because what if it feels lousy"...really? How is that any different than any other tub made? You say that like you expect it to be terrible... it's not. But with other tubs it's take it or leave it. BF gives you OPTIONS. So far the only downside to JetPacks you've actually come up with that might have a shred of merit is it might take some more effort to clean the extra surfaces. Not a big deal in my book. I'm not sure which JetPack mistreated your sister, but it's obvious you don't like any of them. Seriously, not even the Neck Masseuse? That one is so awesome we got two of them so we don't have to share the best jets in the tub. Do that with any other tub... :D
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The majority of the time, it's just me using the spa...sometime maybe a girlfriend will join me. Why the hell would I want all the turbulence, noise and extra expense of operating ALL the jets at the same time?
Also, there's absolutely nothing technological about BF's jet packs...it's just another way of doing something that's been done for decades in spas....jets, and plumbing.
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There are obviously people that do not like it and that's fine. Then there are those that are more open minded and get the concept. It's a different way to build a spa and it's not gimmicky. It's very functional and offers way more "options" for therapy than the old off the shelf spa. Not every spa or jet is going to fit or hit that one person just right. The jet packs do give better options for those looking to personalize their hot tub to what suits them.
Instead of the conventional spa that just is here you go like it or not. Oh the jets don't hit you right in that seat? Well that's what we have and you can't change it, but hey it has pretty lights and a waterfall.
The way Bullfrog has exploded onto the market they must be doing something right. ;) A year ago or more, Bullfrog was not even on anybody's radar.
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Yes MarKee, as a matter of fact getting maximum power at every seat actually is a good argument because it's true. It doesn't "appear" that you are getting maximum power, you are getting it. And the jet packs do not restrict the flow as you incorrectly stated.
As I explained, every seat in a BF has maximum flow (or you can adjust each seat as you like individually). You don't have to mess with diverter valves which sacrifice power at some seats just to get full power at only one seat, which you seem to think is an advantage. What about the people sitting in those other seats who also want full power? Too bad for them if they're not in a BF.
That's the beauty of the BF design, every seat can choose exactly the amount of power they want from full to nothing without forcing other seats to have or less.
So if you turn all but one seat off the flow stays the same in that seat? That's impossible. Bullfrog's have divereters like most other spas they are just in a different spot
I didn't discuss turning off all the seats except one; that's an irrelevant point since the whole purpose of a spa is to have all the seats on so people can enjoy them. Of course the flow to one seat would increase if you turned everything else off, but why does that matter? My point was that everyone can enjoy full power at their seat, or less if they want, without sacrificing power at another seat, which no other spa can do they way BF does because they all force you to divert flow from one seat in order to get max flow at another.
I'm not saying that other spas don't have sufficient power, or aren't quality spas, or don't have nice features, or that BF is the only way to go. I'm simply explaining that a nice feature of a BF is that the design allows for individually adjustable power at each seat and that you don't lose a significant amount of power at one seat to get more power at another.
I tested several other brands and every time they would say, "Ok, sit in this seat and I'll adjust the diverter so you can get full power". Then I would say, "Great, now keep me at full power and let my wife feel full power at her seat too". And all the salesman would start making excuses about why they couldn't do that, or I would never really want full power at more than one seat, or just fiddle around with all these diverter settings to get some sort of balance of medium power, etc.
If that works for someone, great. For me the BF system made much more sense.
Then it's not full power at every seat if you turn divertors and more flow goes to other seats. Glad you are enjoying your Tub. BF absolutely makes a fine product and are a top of the line spa. Hope you have many trouble free years with it
Yes, as I clearly explained, every seat has full power. And you don't turn diverters like on other spas which decrease power at some seats to send it to others, you simply adjust individual seats to your liking without significantly affecting the other seats. That's what people who haven't tested a BF don't understand because they're accustomed to compromising and dividing power amongst their seats.
The pumps, plumbing, and design of the jet packs allow for full power at all the seats simultaneously and then you can individually turn seats down if you want. And yes, as I already explained, when you turn down several seats the flow will increase a little at the other seats. So the power at those seats would go from 100% to 110%, which then you could turn down if you wanted back to 100%. (The "extra" flow from turning several seats way down is also routed to the various foot, hip, wrist, and other permanent jets.) Nobody has to have less power so somebody else can have full power.
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I see jet pacs as a gimmick to sell tubs. No one ever buys extra. After a little while they never change them around. Seems to me if your buying a BF you had better wet test because what if it feels lousy, all the jet pacs, no matter where you put them. Or maybe buy all of them. Or just buy what the dealer steers you to. To me it's not technology, it's a gimmick to help sell a tub that's nothing more than, well OK? The pacs and the way they are mounted look clunky to me. There's more surface to clean when you clean your tub. And I cleaned mine a lot.
There's a whole lot of better tubs out there in my opinion. And whoever said 10 years, it better be longer than that. Great tubs last 20 or more.
And I don't care for the HS moto massage either. After 20+ years of ownership of different brands I like a certain feel and neither BF or HS give it to me. I would hope everyone finds there "feel" and are not steered to a brand because of some gimmick.
Big and Clunky? I'd get a refund from your eye doctor if I was you :-)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2r2n514.jpg)
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I said "Clunky" Not big and clunky. I went out and looked for flashy photos of other brands with fewer seems, less bumps and choppy curves but couldn't figure out how to copy and post. You can go find your own. Maybe it's not my eyes but a different eye.
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Instead of the conventional spa that just is here you go like it or not. Oh the jets don't hit you right in that seat? Well that's what we have and you can't change it, but hey it has pretty lights and a waterfall.
Instead of 100's of different combinations of quality tubs and jets and pumps and dealers. I'd rather have 20-30 jet pacs? I bet a company like HS has more jet combinations than BF. By all means buy one if it's right for you. But technology........that's a stretch.
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You don't get it and that's alright ::) nobody says you have to have 30 packs. If your looking at a 7x7 spa in Jacuzzi you have 4 choices of spas J-345 J-335 J-245 and J-235 2 are nicer than the other 2 with more features, but the jets are where they are and that's what you get. Same with Sundance and Hot Springs. With Bullfrog you can choose from 16 different ones and get what you want. And no most people are not going to buy extras though I have sold them.
Cool thing was and get this, I was able to send one or two home with them to try it out to see if they really liked it and if they wanted to try others I could send a different one again. You can't do that with any other spa. Why do you think the golf industry came out with changeable driver shafts and adjustable heads? To fit some ones swing.
IT'S ABOUT PERSONAL CHOICE AND BEING ABLE TO CHOOSE A PACK THAT YOU LIKE IN YOUR SPA. End of story.
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Look at the title of the thread.
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Instead of the conventional spa that just is here you go like it or not. Oh the jets don't hit you right in that seat? Well that's what we have and you can't change it, but hey it has pretty lights and a waterfall.
Instead of 100's of different combinations of quality tubs and jets and pumps and dealers. I'd rather have 20-30 jet pacs? I bet a company like HS has more jet combinations than BF. By all means buy one if it's right for you. But technology........that's a stretch.
For some reason you have a thing against BF. No idea why, but you've lost credibility here. At this point you're just arguing no matter what anyone says.
in the last week I've suggested BF to 3 couples looking a tubs. All 3 have ordered a BF tub over the other, older designed tubs.
BF is doing it right.
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I see jet pacs as a gimmick to sell tubs. No one ever buys extra. After a little while they never change them around.
It's a fool who speaks in absolutes.
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Look at the title of the thread.
Pretty sure we got off that subject line awhile ago. You wanna keep talking about it, or let it go? Or does it need to go the way of beating a dead horse? The technology has been around for a long time. Someone made it better than it was by a long shot and it's pissing some major mfg off big time. You obviously don't agree with it, and again that's fine. Honestly you should go take a look at one in person and make a decision about it at that point. I know you only service spa's as did I at one point in my career. Are they the best thing since sliced bread? No. But they are something different and so far seem to be a really, really good spa and offer something unique from the old cookie cutter design that's available to the consumer.
I am done with this now, as it's just going round and round. Much like so many threads did a few years ago. I will say dealers are loving the change and it's some thing new compared to the Hot Springs, Jacuzzi and Sundance lines that just up in price and down in quality. Again the talk about it proves my point.
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Instead of the conventional spa that just is here you go like it or not. Oh the jets don't hit you right in that seat? Well that's what we have and you can't change it, but hey it has pretty lights and a waterfall.
Instead of 100's of different combinations of quality tubs and jets and pumps and dealers. I'd rather have 20-30 jet pacs? I bet a company like HS has more jet combinations than BF. By all means buy one if it's right for you. But technology........that's a stretch.
For some reason you have a thing against BF. No idea why, but you've lost credibility here. At this point you're just arguing no matter what anyone says.
in the last week I've suggested BF to 3 couples looking a tubs. All 3 have ordered a BF tub over the other, older designed tubs.
BF is doing it right.
Just because I don't drink the koolaid does not mean I have anything against Bullfrog. They seem to be OK. I looked at them. I don't get a goo-goo about hot tub gimmicks.
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Instead of the conventional spa that just is here you go like it or not. Oh the jets don't hit you right in that seat? Well that's what we have and you can't change it, but hey it has pretty lights and a waterfall.
Instead of 100's of different combinations of quality tubs and jets and pumps and dealers. I'd rather have 20-30 jet pacs? I bet a company like HS has more jet combinations than BF. By all means buy one if it's right for you. But technology........that's a stretch.
For some reason you have a thing against BF. No idea why, but you've lost credibility here. At this point you're just arguing no matter what anyone says.
in the last week I've suggested BF to 3 couples looking a tubs. All 3 have ordered a BF tub over the other, older designed tubs.
BF is doing it right.
Just because I don't drink the koolaid does not mean I have anything against Bullfrog. They seem to be OK. I looked at them. I don't get a goo-goo about hot tub gimmicks.
Koolaid?
Credibility = zero
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OK lets talk about credibility. "You get full power at all jet pacs" This is scientifically impossible, it's a sales pitch but a bunch of you have fallin for it, drank the koolaid. If you turn all the power to one jet pac it has the full power of the pump, or as much as the plumbing and friction will allow. The second you turn on another jet pac the first looses power and gives it to the second and so on. The BF I looked at didn't have a pump for each jet pac. That's the only way "full power at all jet pacs" is possible.
So those who say "full power at all jet pacs"= no credibility, just koolaid.
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OK lets talk about credibility. "You get full power at all jet pacs" This is scientifically impossible, it's a sales pitch but a bunch of you have fallin for it, drank the koolaid. If you turn all the power to one jet pac it has the full power of the pump, or as much as the plumbing and friction will allow. The second you turn on another jet pac the first looses power and gives it to the second and so on. The BF I looked at didn't have a pump for each jet pac. That's the only way "full power at all jet pacs" is possible.
So those who say "full power at all jet pacs"= no credibility, just koolaid.
You need to think a little more logically. Full power doesn't mean the full level of pressure/volume available at the pump exhaust. It simply means that the system is designed to deliver the highest volume and pressure with as few obstacles to each seat. It's a more efficient design, no one can argue that point. Do BF sales people push the envelope with how they describe it? Probably, but we seem to have a generally more discerning group here that can look beyond that and appreciate the differences in the BF design.
Playing dumb doesn't help anyone, especially newer folks coming here to seek information. They're looking for an honest discussion with as little noise to signal ration as possible.
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Full power doesn't mean the full level of pressure/volume available at the pump exhaust. It simply means that the system is designed to deliver the highest volume and pressure with as few obstacles to each seat. It's a more efficient design, no one can argue that point. Do BF sales people push the envelope with how they describe it? Probably, but we seem to have a generally more discerning group here that can look beyond that and appreciate the differences in the BF design.
O.K., I can agree it's a more efficient design although I don't necessarily agree with your definition of what full power means. When someone says Bullfrog gets full power at all seats it's not true and it's misleading. I think people lose credibility when they say Bullfrog has full power at all seats, and I've seen that said a few times in this and other threads. And I'm saying this as someone who likes what Bullfrog is doing.
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I don't think I have heard any "Bullfrog dealers" here say there is full power at every seat. And it's not something I mention in my presentation. I do however believe you get more/better flow to the jetpacks than any other spa because there are not nearly as many bends, twist and turns or manifolds in a Bullfrog spa as a conventional spa.
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I think this is where the "full power" thing comes from - http://www.bullfrogspas.com/more-power/
I think the full power thing is marketing and design vs physics. Some think full power to each seat means full power of one pump to each seat. OK, lets say they do that with tiny pumps to each seat.. that would then be full power to each seat? Would you be happy then that they claim full power to each seat? I don't think I would be.
Each jet pack has a GPM rating depending on what jets were used in it based on their design for whatever "optimum" is. I think the full power statement comes from being able to deliver that flow. Shutting down seats to deliver all the power of one pump to one seat, is then overdriving the seat, delivering more power than the original design called for. This isn't going to hurt anything, and maybe someone actually wants that much water blasting them in the back. And yes, I suppose any manufacturer could decide that full flow could be delivered to all seats because that's how they "designed and intended them to flow". The fact is that when I sat in a Bullfrog with all the seats wide open, I was still dialing down some of the jet packs because they were more intense than I wanted. Other tubs I have needed to use diverter to reduce flow to one area to give me more power. Though I'm sure there are other tubs out there that can deliver good power to every seat at the same time too.
So yeah, it may be a lil marketing twist, but the jets are still real good with everything wide open, and if you rally want more, you can still make that happen. If there was no way to adjust, then the detractors would have a valid point, you should have control over the flow. Bullfrog just takes a different approach. But there isn't a company out there that doesn't use marketing to fluff things up. If we all just took marketing at face value, we wouldn't even need showrooms or wet tests, just read the brochure and decide what you want.
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OK lets talk about credibility. "You get full power at all jet pacs" This is scientifically impossible, it's a sales pitch but a bunch of you have fallin for it, drank the koolaid. If you turn all the power to one jet pac it has the full power of the pump, or as much as the plumbing and friction will allow. The second you turn on another jet pac the first looses power and gives it to the second and so on. The BF I looked at didn't have a pump for each jet pac. That's the only way "full power at all jet pacs" is possible.
So those who say "full power at all jet pacs"= no credibility, just koolaid.
You need to think a little more logically. Full power doesn't mean the full level of pressure/volume available at the pump exhaust. It simply means that the system is designed to deliver the highest volume and pressure with as few obstacles to each seat. It's a more efficient design, no one can argue that point. Do BF sales people push the envelope with how they describe it? Probably, but we seem to have a generally more discerning group here that can look beyond that and appreciate the differences in the BF design.
Playing dumb doesn't help anyone, especially newer folks coming here to seek information. They're looking for an honest discussion with as little noise to signal ration as possible.
People come here seeking unbiased information. Not skewed facts.
And Jim, what if you put a pump with better flow in an engineered plumbing system with manifolds diverted right, that has actually more pressure and a better feel than one with less plumbing and jet pacs?
Jeez guys, no one has said that it was crappy, or not different. I am simply saying it IS NOT better no matter what the BF salesman or relatively new owners hangin here say. You choose between 15 different feels with BF. If the top 5 manufacturers make 8-10 different models (with different feels) that gives you about 45 different feels. The odds are good that a few of those might be better a little, or lots better than anyone of the 15 different space pacs offer by BF. One of those 60 different feels should be right for almost everyone. Don't buy one because someone called it technology.
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tech·nol·o·gy
tekˈnäləjē/Submit
noun
the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry.
"advances in computer technology"
machinery and equipment developed from the application of scientific knowledge.
the branch of knowledge dealing with engineering or applied sciences.
Less plumbing, elbows, and manifolds reduces friction. That is scientific knowledge and it was applied for practical purposes. I'd say the word technology is apropos.
You can do a simple experiment in your own yard. Hook a 100' garden hose to your spigot. Open it all of the way and make note of the pressure coming out the end. Next hook up a 10' garden hose and compare the pressure. *spoiler alert - The 10' garden hose will have significantly more pressure coming out than the longer hose. This is a scientific fact.
Feel the pressure coming out of a jetpak with a 2.5 hp motor with all of the jets turned on. Now compare it to another brand of hot tub with the same motor and number of jets. Guess which one will have more power?
Additionally, there are significantly less holes in the shell. That means there are less potential for leaks and that the shell is stronger than it would be if there were holes for every jet. I'm not saying leaking jets are a huge problem, but I've fixed quite a few in my day.
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You can do a simple experiment in your own yard. Hook a 100' garden hose to your spigot. Open it all of the way and make note of the pressure coming out the end. Next hook up a 10' garden hose and compare the pressure. *spoiler alert - The 10' garden hose will have significantly more pressure coming out than the longer hose. This is a scientific fact.
Ahhhh, no. The PRESSURE will be exactly the same (or so slightly different you wont be able to tell the difference). Now the flow...that will be quite different.
Now, considering you don't know the difference between pressure and flow ......
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Feel the pressure coming out of a jetpak with a 2.5 hp motor with all of the jets turned on. Now compare it to another brand of hot tub with the same motor and number of jets. Guess which one will have more power?
Additionally, there are significantly less holes in the shell. That means there are less potential for leaks and that the shell is stronger than it would be if there were holes for every jet. I'm not saying leaking jets are a huge problem, but I've fixed quite a few in my day.
You are correct, on both accounts. Assuming that both tubs have the same pump. What if one of the other manufacturers out there actually uses a better pump (more GPM/flow) with more comfortable jets and well engineered plumbing system that uses less power that is a better system. So BF uses a 2.5HP motor of pump brand A and the other guy uses a 3 HP motor on a higher GPM pump brand b and it feels better and/or is stronger than the BF. Show me the data that says BF has more GPM outflow at the jets than say a Marquis Ephoria. Your manifold is your jet pac. Don't forget to calculate the friction loss (as mentioned by me earlier) of the water bouncing around in the pac.
Lets not argue plumbing guys. There's literally tens of thousands or more different combinations of motors, pumps, electronic, jet, plumbing designs that may be better, or worse?? No dealer or owner can tell me it's better so.....
How about this, it's a better design for you. I can compromise. But like I said, I'll say it again. To keep the thread name solid. Technology?.....streeeetch. Full power at all pacs........streeeeetch
I left out the hose part knowing it was incorrect to not make you look bad, your welcome.
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Semantics. I think everyone knew what I meant.
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OK lets talk about credibility. "You get full power at all jet pacs" This is scientifically impossible, it's a sales pitch but a bunch of you have fallin for it, drank the koolaid. If you turn all the power to one jet pac it has the full power of the pump, or as much as the plumbing and friction will allow. The second you turn on another jet pac the first looses power and gives it to the second and so on. The BF I looked at didn't have a pump for each jet pac. That's the only way "full power at all jet pacs" is possible.
So those who say "full power at all jet pacs"= no credibility, just koolaid.
You need to think a little more logically. Full power doesn't mean the full level of pressure/volume available at the pump exhaust. It simply means that the system is designed to deliver the highest volume and pressure with as few obstacles to each seat. It's a more efficient design, no one can argue that point. Do BF sales people push the envelope with how they describe it? Probably, but we seem to have a generally more discerning group here that can look beyond that and appreciate the differences in the BF design.
Playing dumb doesn't help anyone, especially newer folks coming here to seek information. They're looking for an honest discussion with as little noise to signal ration as possible.
People come here seeking unbiased information. Not skewed facts.
If that's true, I can extrapolate that those people have never been on an internet forum before. :)
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Semantics. I think everyone knew what I meant.
I did Sam
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OK lets talk about credibility. "You get full power at all jet pacs" This is scientifically impossible, it's a sales pitch but a bunch of you have fallin for it, drank the koolaid. If you turn all the power to one jet pac it has the full power of the pump, or as much as the plumbing and friction will allow. The second you turn on another jet pac the first looses power and gives it to the second and so on. The BF I looked at didn't have a pump for each jet pac. That's the only way "full power at all jet pacs" is possible.
So those who say "full power at all jet pacs"= no credibility, just koolaid.
You need to think a little more logically. Full power doesn't mean the full level of pressure/volume available at the pump exhaust. It simply means that the system is designed to deliver the highest volume and pressure with as few obstacles to each seat. It's a more efficient design, no one can argue that point. Do BF sales people push the envelope with how they describe it? Probably, but we seem to have a generally more discerning group here that can look beyond that and appreciate the differences in the BF design.
Playing dumb doesn't help anyone, especially newer folks coming here to seek information. They're looking for an honest discussion with as little noise to signal ration as possible.
People come here seeking unbiased information. Not skewed facts.
If that's true, I can extrapolate that those people have never been on an internet forum before. :)
I'm only here to help. A little bit of confusion is better than gullibility.
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OK lets talk about credibility. "You get full power at all jet pacs" This is scientifically impossible, it's a sales pitch but a bunch of you have fallin for it, drank the koolaid. If you turn all the power to one jet pac it has the full power of the pump, or as much as the plumbing and friction will allow. The second you turn on another jet pac the first looses power and gives it to the second and so on. The BF I looked at didn't have a pump for each jet pac. That's the only way "full power at all jet pacs" is possible.
So those who say "full power at all jet pacs"= no credibility, just koolaid.
You need to think a little more logically. Full power doesn't mean the full level of pressure/volume available at the pump exhaust. It simply means that the system is designed to deliver the highest volume and pressure with as few obstacles to each seat. It's a more efficient design, no one can argue that point. Do BF sales people push the envelope with how they describe it? Probably, but we seem to have a generally more discerning group here that can look beyond that and appreciate the differences in the BF design.
Playing dumb doesn't help anyone, especially newer folks coming here to seek information. They're looking for an honest discussion with as little noise to signal ration as possible.
People come here seeking unbiased information. Not skewed facts.
And Jim, what if you put a pump with better flow in an engineered plumbing system with manifolds diverted right, that has actually more pressure and a better feel than one with less plumbing and jet pacs?
Jeez guys, no one has said that it was crappy, or not different. I am simply saying it IS NOT better no matter what the BF salesman or relatively new owners hangin here say. You choose between 15 different feels with BF. If the top 5 manufacturers make 8-10 different models (with different feels) that gives you about 45 different feels. The odds are good that a few of those might be better a little, or lots better than anyone of the 15 different space pacs offer by BF. One of those 60 different feels should be right for almost everyone. Don't buy one because someone called it technology.
I didn't say BF was better, I said that all the seats in a BF can enjoy full power if they want without being forced to divert power away to another seat. To me that was a significant and worthwhile advantage, to others it might not be.
And I'm not sure why Tmann and others get so wrapped around the axle about the term "full power". It's very simple and I don't understand what's so hard to grasp; each seat in a BF simultaneously has so much pressure/power/flow that most people prefer to turn their individual seat down a little. This is what is called "full power at each seat" and most logical people would agree. That's not to say that other brands don't have decent power, it's just that their designs require some seats to have much less power if another seat wants more.
I find it interesting that every time I try to explain this simple concept detractors start crying foul with irrelevant arguments about semantics, but none of them will ever refute the plain fact that BF does not force you to divert flow from one seat in order to get more flow at another with diverters.
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I didn't say BF was better, I said that all the seats in a BF can enjoy full power if they want without being forced to divert power away to another seat. To me that was a significant and worthwhile advantage, to others it might not be.
And I'm not sure why Tmann and others get so wrapped around the axle about the term "full power".
I find it interesting that every time I try to explain this simple concept detractors start crying foul with irrelevant arguments about semantics, but none of them will ever refute the plain fact that BF does not force you to divert flow from one seat in order to get more flow at another with diverters.
OK folks, just so you know and in the spirit of the thread the above is completely not true and impossible.
This is better. With a BF spa you have to turn down the power if you decide to use just one jet pac because it hurts your skin.
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I didn't say BF was better, I said that all the seats in a BF can enjoy full power if they want without being forced to divert power away to another seat. To me that was a significant and worthwhile advantage, to others it might not be.
And I'm not sure why Tmann and others get so wrapped around the axle about the term "full power".
I find it interesting that every time I try to explain this simple concept detractors start crying foul with irrelevant arguments about semantics, but none of them will ever refute the plain fact that BF does not force you to divert flow from one seat in order to get more flow at another with diverters.
OK folks, just so you know and in the spirit of the thread the above is completely not true and impossible.
This is better. With a BF spa you have to turn down the power if you decide to use just one jet pac because it hurts your skin.
Notice that Tmann still can't explain what's not true or why something he doesn't understand is impossible, and that he can't refute what I said about the difference in design between BF and other brands. And once again he brings up irrelevancies like "using just one jet pack" which I clearly never mentioned. I distinctly described having ALL the seats on at FULL POWER.
I even tried to make it easier to understand by explaining that by "full power" I mean that all seats simultaneously can have so much power that most people like to turn their individual seat down, and that other brands require you to divert power from one seat to get full power at another. Please explain what is "completely not true and impossible" about that. Am I and the thousands of other BF owners just imagining how our tubs are working? Was I just dreaming when I tested the other brands and power was diverted away?
Why do people insist on calling me a liar when all I'm doing is relating my own experience with my own spa as compared to all the other spas I researched and tested? Once again, every other spa I tested could not provide full power (or whatever you want to call so much power that it can be uncomfortable) at every seat simultaneously, while my BF does.
I can't make it any simpler.
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Well OK lets break this down, but first. I didn't call anyone a liar. Maybe to much koolaid but not a liar. And I'm sorry you had bad wet testing experiences especially with all the new jet designs both waterway and aquaquip are designing and selling that the other guys use.
Now, you take one pump or even two pumps and you turn it/them on "full power" and divert, yes I said divert it to one jet pac, full power at the jet pac right? We can both agree yes here. Now open another jet pac's diverter, are you getting full power on both? If you say yes lay off the koolaid dude. It's about GPM (gallons per minute) that exit the jet. If a pump has a fixed outflow, which they do. Then the more holes you push the GPM to the less each hole gets. Pretty simple even for this dumb plumber.
This should clarify both your and MY understanding. And with 30 years of plumbing experience I'm not sure your qualified to question my understanding of fluid mechanics or any one of it's subsets to include hydrodynamics and fluid dynamics.
Listen dporter22, I know you are happy with your tub. This is not about that. It is about false claims by a manufacturer used to sell tubs and the truth from a 100% unbiased and reasonably knowledgeable source. I wish I knew as much about plumbing as cemgeek knows about chemicals. My problem is I forgot more about plumbing that most people know.
You can get full power at every jet pac. Not at the same time. You just have to "divert" it to the jet pac you choose. It's nothing more than a simple play on words. All manufacturers do it. Relax, I beat up every claim of superiority. Ask the Arctic guys.....LOL
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Tman
"It is about false claims by a manufacturer used to sell tubs and the truth from a 100% unbiased and reasonably knowledgeable source"
I and Eric just got done with 2 days of Bullfrog training, at no point was this claim ever made. Unless his dealer is spouting it, I don't know? But it's not coming from Bullfrog spa's as a sales pitch.
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Well OK lets break this down, but first. I didn't call anyone a liar. Maybe to much koolaid but not a liar. And I'm sorry you had bad wet testing experiences especially with all the new jet designs both waterway and aquaquip are designing and selling that the other guys use.
Now, you take one pump or even two pumps and you turn it/them on "full power" and divert, yes I said divert it to one jet pac, full power at the jet pac right? We can both agree yes here. Now open another jet pac's diverter, are you getting full power on both? If you say yes lay off the koolaid dude. It's about GPM (gallons per minute) that exit the jet. If a pump has a fixed outflow, which they do. Then the more holes you push the GPM to the less each hole gets. Pretty simple even for this dumb plumber.
This should clarify both your and MY understanding. And with 30 years of plumbing experience I'm not sure your qualified to question my understanding of fluid mechanics or any one of it's subsets to include hydrodynamics and fluid dynamics.
Listen dporter22, I know you are happy with your tub. This is not about that. It is about false claims by a manufacturer used to sell tubs and the truth from a 100% unbiased and reasonably knowledgeable source. I wish I knew as much about plumbing as cemgeek knows about chemicals. My problem is I forgot more about plumbing that most people know.
You can get full power at every jet pac. Not at the same time. You just have to "divert" it to the jet pac you choose. It's nothing more than a simple play on words. All manufacturers do it. Relax, I beat up every claim of superiority. Ask the Arctic guys.....LOL
When you directly claim that my statements are "completely wrong and impossible", you are calling me a liar. And once again you have failed to explain how I was wrong or how BF has made false claims. Everyone understands, except you apparently, that I'm not talking about the actual gallons per minute measured at a single seat when I say "full power". I have explained several times that by "full power" I mean a very significant amount of power at every seat simultaneously without forcing some seats to divert their flow to others to get that significant amount. And I didn't have bad experiences testing other brands, I quite clearly explained that none of them could produce significant power at all the seats simultaneously. One dealer even told me to go buy a BF if I would regularly have more than two people in the tub since all of his models could only provide significant power to two seats at a time.
For the umpteenth time, every seat in a BF has a significant amount of power (see how I didn't say "full power" since you don't seem to grasp the concept), all at the same time, and nobody has to divert power away from their seat to give someone else a more powerful flow like is required on most other brands.
And why do you keep saying that I "drank the Koolaid" when everything the BF dealer told me was true, I tested and researched several brands extensively, and then made an informed decision that by personal experience is exactly as I've described?
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Now, you take one pump or even two pumps and you turn it/them on "full power" and divert, yes I said divert it to one jet pac, full power at the jet pac right? We can both agree yes here. Now open another jet pac's diverter, are you getting full power on both? If you say yes lay off the koolaid dude. It's about GPM (gallons per minute) that exit the jet. If a pump has a fixed outflow, which they do. Then the more holes you push the GPM to the less each hole gets. Pretty simple even for this dumb plumber.
Blind maybe, but I never called you a liar.
100 GPM pump to one jet pac minus friction and plumbing maybe 90GPM at the jet pac. 100 GPM pump to 2 jet pacs maybe 45 GPM at each pac and so on.
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My wife and I were looking at a Bullfrog and were ready to pull the trigger. We ended up with a Hot Springs. What happened? The Bullfrog salesman blew the sale by being a "salesman". Bullfrog spas are a neat idea and we absolutely would have purchased one. However, we love our Hot Spring. What's my point? They are a both a big bowl of hot water with jets and seats that are comfortable and ultimately serve the same purpose. Arguing about plumbing and whether something is "technology" is silly and fruitless. Wet test the tubs and pick the one that feels the best. Who cares how the manufacturer accomplishes that? That being said, if you take a salesperson at their word and don't validate what they say, you're crazy. No offense Eric. :)
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Arguing about plumbing and whether something is "technology" is silly and fruitless. Wet test the tubs and pick the one that feels the best. Who cares how the manufacturer accomplishes that? That being said, if you take a salesperson at their word and don't validate what they say, you're crazy. No offense Eric. :)
I like these threads to be real. You also learn a lot about a salesman and a manufacturer.
Ever heard of polished PVC? They polish the inside (as if it can be any smoother) to reduce friction by as much as 10%. I remember when street 90's were all the rage to reduce friction. I also remember when we used to solder copper tubing, not anymore, Propress.
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That's my point though, as long as the tub provides the functionality I want and does so in a reliable manner, I couldn't care less what magic dust they sprinkle in there. People need to learn to look past marketing and sales hype. However, I'm with you on the full power at each seat discussion, pressure being a function of volume and all.
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People need to learn to look past marketing and sales hype.
Unfortunately, it frequently seems that a lot of people don't, can't, or are just plain gullible (or subconsciously trying to validate their purchase).
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But all tubs have different height seats so the jets hit you in different spots.
Are you really this obtuse or are you just screwing with us?
OK, let's pick the Hot Spring Moto Massage... since people tend to rave about it. What do you do when the moto massage is in the deep seat and you're 5' tall? Or they put it in the shallow seat and you're 6'5"? Or the lounge, but you float out of it? But you really want a moto massage?
It's all about having options! Bullfrogs are the perfect tub for people who don't deal well with commitment ;D
I think BF would work well if everyone who uses the tub is of the same height. I use Marquis where each seat is of different height. For that reason everyone in the household can use and enjoy the tub.
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I think everyone in here needs a Hot Tub to calm down and relax a bit :-)
TMan - nobody at Bullfrog is trying to "deceive" or mis market anything...the company itself is still a relatively small "mom and pop" shop out of UTAH just trying to earn a name for themselves in the industry, most of the top end employees were 20+ year guys at Sundance that made the switch when Jacuzzi/Sundance moved to Mexico...everyone running the company is very passionate about selling a good spa and by no means are they using or attempting to use any "deceptive" marketing. They have a nice niche and it is sold as such, just like Hot Springs has the ACE/MOTO/No-Bypass, Marquis has "hot zone" and MicroSilk, Jacuzzi has their air to water pitch, along with clearray, etc. etc.
There are plenty of killer Hot Tubs on the market, at the end of the day like Gizmodo said people will ultimately narrow down a list and buy from who they like/trust the most so all of these arguments over microscopic technical details don't do anyone who is viewing this thread any good at the end of the day, so can we just "hug it out" and move on :-)
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I think everyone in here needs a Hot Tub to calm down and relax a bit :-)
TMan - nobody at Bullfrog is trying to "deceive" or mis market anything...the company itself is still a relatively small "mom and pop" shop out of UTAH just trying to earn a name for themselves in the industry, most of the top end employees were 20+ year guys at Sundance that made the switch when Jacuzzi/Sundance moved to Mexico...everyone running the company is very passionate about selling a good spa and by no means are they using or attempting to use any "deceptive" marketing. They have a nice niche and it is sold as such, just like Hot Springs has the ACE/MOTO/No-Bypass, Marquis has "hot zone" and MicroSilk, Jacuzzi has their air to water pitch, along with clearray, etc. etc.
There are plenty of killer Hot Tubs on the market, at the end of the day like Gizmodo said people will ultimately narrow down a list and buy from who they like/trust the most so all of these arguments over microscopic technical details don't do anyone who is viewing this thread any good at the end of the day, so can we just "hug it out" and move on :-)
I was at your store, and you didn't even know it. Just doing what I always do, checking out the stuff. Thanks for taking the equipment panel off for me.
I don't ever want to hear "full power at all jet pacs" again.
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I think everyone in here needs a Hot Tub to calm down and relax a bit :-)
TMan - nobody at Bullfrog is trying to "deceive" or mis market anything...the company itself is still a relatively small "mom and pop" shop out of UTAH just trying to earn a name for themselves in the industry, most of the top end employees were 20+ year guys at Sundance that made the switch when Jacuzzi/Sundance moved to Mexico...everyone running the company is very passionate about selling a good spa and by no means are they using or attempting to use any "deceptive" marketing. They have a nice niche and it is sold as such, just like Hot Springs has the ACE/MOTO/No-Bypass, Marquis has "hot zone" and MicroSilk, Jacuzzi has their air to water pitch, along with clearray, etc. etc.
There are plenty of killer Hot Tubs on the market, at the end of the day like Gizmodo said people will ultimately narrow down a list and buy from who they like/trust the most so all of these arguments over microscopic technical details don't do anyone who is viewing this thread any good at the end of the day, so can we just "hug it out" and move on :-)
I was at your store, and you didn't even know it. Just doing what I always do, checking out the stuff. Thanks for taking the equipment panel off for me.
I don't ever want to hear "full power at all jet pacs" again.
Wonderful to hear, no need to sneak around though, next time introduce yourself and I'll be sure and show you "under the hood" of any spa you'd like to take a look at.
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I think everyone in here needs a Hot Tub to calm down and relax a bit :-)
TMan - nobody at Bullfrog is trying to "deceive" or mis market anything...the company itself is still a relatively small "mom and pop" shop out of UTAH just trying to earn a name for themselves in the industry, most of the top end employees were 20+ year guys at Sundance that made the switch when Jacuzzi/Sundance moved to Mexico...everyone running the company is very passionate about selling a good spa and by no means are they using or attempting to use any "deceptive" marketing. They have a nice niche and it is sold as such, just like Hot Springs has the ACE/MOTO/No-Bypass, Marquis has "hot zone" and MicroSilk, Jacuzzi has their air to water pitch, along with clearray, etc. etc.
There are plenty of killer Hot Tubs on the market, at the end of the day like Gizmodo said people will ultimately narrow down a list and buy from who they like/trust the most so all of these arguments over microscopic technical details don't do anyone who is viewing this thread any good at the end of the day, so can we just "hug it out" and move on :-)
I was at your store, and you didn't even know it. Just doing what I always do, checking out the stuff. Thanks for taking the equipment panel off for me.
I don't ever want to hear "full power at all jet pacs" again.
Wonderful to hear, no need to sneak around though, next time introduce yourself and I'll be sure and show you "under the hood" of any spa you'd like to take a look at.
BullFrogSpasMN - make sure to have a pitcher of Kool-Aid ready for Tman when he drives all the way from the Duluth area to get all a goo-goo over the BF spas - LOL! We purchased our BF spa from you - going on 3 problem free years and still loving it. Glad to see you on the forum!
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I work in Duluth but live in Sturgeon Lake. Refined red necks.