Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: DaveMc on September 15, 2014, 12:28:59 pm
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Sundance Optima offers 23 wiring options
1. 50 amp---- heater will not engage when both pumps are running
2. 60 amp----Heater will operate while both pumps are running
3. I don't know
I am running #4 -2 hot's + neutral and a #8 ground to a subpanel near the tub (150' run) in 1-1/4 schedule 40 pvc and #6 (hot hot ground) from sub to the hot tub. So with this configuration I have the option of going with 60 amp GFCI or 50 amp GFCI at the sub. The advantage is #2 above the disadvantage is the cost of a 60 amp GFCI.
Which way would the expert's go????????
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It's been a bit since I've looked in the NEC (code book), and there may have been some recent changes, however, codes for pools and spas, which are different than regular/general codes (use to) call for the ground wire being the same size as the hot legs (most inspectors are unaware of this specific code and will allow you to go ONE size smaller). I also don't believe you can increase the size of the ground wire from the sub (disconnect) to the hot tub.
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So you are making me aware of 2 requirements
1. ground wire from spa to sub panel gfci then on to main service panel NOT be reduced in size---ie: #6 spa to gfci sub must be a #6 or larger sut to main.
2. Ground wire to spa from main service to sub panel an on to spa must be as large or larger than feeders to spa from sub (in my case #6A)
So where it is OK for a sub panel (3-#4 hot hot neutral and one # 8 ground)---it is NOT ok for a spa connection---correct?
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Here is what forum member "Stubbie" had to say to another question----regarding grounding and wire size: "That is fine be sure you use conduit all the way to the spa control panel. Liquid tight is common from the spa panel back to the spa control panel. Your equipment ground wire must be insulated green and can be #10 awg copper, neutral insulated white, the hot conductors can be black insulated all should be #6 awg."
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I'm reading this as, from the breaker main panel, your feeding the spa disconnect (you're calling this a "sub panel", but since it's ONLY feeding the spa, it technically isn't a sub panel).
In the USA there's what's called the National Electric Codes (NEC). Most municipalities adopt these codes...some are many years behind current codes, some add their own or make some of the codes more stringent. There are a number of electric codes SPECIFICALLY for pools and spas that are DIFFERENT that the "normal" electric codes. MANY electricians, and even building inspectors are either unaware of, or misinterpret these codes. While liquid tight is common to be used, there is a MAXIMUM length, by code, it can be run. I believe it's 6 feet, though it may be 3. But again, you may be able to get away with doing something differently if no one catches it, or is aware of this limitation.
The ground wire must be capable of carrying the same amperage as the hot wires. A smaller wire will not do this. The potential, with a direct short, is that the smaller ground wire will melt before the breaker trips, and now the spa wont be grounded. (FYI, you CAN run a smaller neutral wire, but most inspectors wont allow it without you proving it's acceptable).
Remember, just because you read it on the internet, it's not necessarily true....and I may not be completely correct in my responses (the codes do change every year, and it's been a few years since I've seen the code book...and any municipality is free to adopt what ever codes they "feel like")
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Well "Dr Spa" I am going with your opinion over a few others and I changed my #8 ground to a #6---at a phenomenal cost increase of $31.00 for a 155 foot run!
Your answer makes sense and the other guy while informative just kept quoting the code "60 amp = #10 ground"---not mentioning de-rating or distance or the fact that the #6 ground at the spa control box would become smaller on the way to the main service via the "disconnect"!
Thanks for your knowledge and input---much appreciated--and I caught the order in time to change my #8 to #6 green jacked ground!
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Well, the reason the code kept being quoted was because it is CORRECT. I'm not sure what more can be said. I am curious as to what code Dr. Spa is referring to.
It's interesting that you will take the advice of a retired spa installer who admits he has not looked at the NEC in a while over the advice of several working licensed electrical professionals. :-\
True, if you upsize the current carrying conductors you must upsize the ground, but NOT to the full size of the CCC's.
Dr. Spa, may I suggest you reacquaint yourself with the up to date NEC that you said you haven't looked at in a bit. You may find things that interest you.
This quote: "Remember, just because you read it on the internet, it's not necessarily true...." really holds true in this thread.
A few points:
- Grounds are NOT sized "ONE size smaller". They are sized according to NEC T250.122.
- Liquidtite is NOT limited to 6' or 3'. There is NO limit to length. Metallic liquidtite is limited to 6' where the internal metllic lining is used as a grounding conductor, but that's a different story.
- The equipment ground does NOT have to "be capable of carrying the same amperage as the hot wires". That is not the intended purpose of an equipment ground. Fault current is vastly different from circuit current.
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Well, I have been waiting all day for Dr Spa to back me up here--but--I suppose it ain't going to happen!
Sorry if I am being perceived as dissing the Electricians---whom I have a lot of respect for---but my order was in and I had to make a quick decision--and the cost was small.
I did earlier this year depend on you guys for a "sub panel" 175 feet from my house and service and there I installed 4 # 4 and one #8 ground--and all went fine--inspected just fine--so your input helped.
I thought tho that since "spa's are different" that I should opt for the larger ground---basically I just couldn't get over the fact that if I didn't I would be reducing the ground from #6 to # 8 or 10 on the way to my main service and I could agree with the reduction--made no logical sense why I would need #6 (per ;mfg) at the spa but #10 at the main service---larger going to smaller made no logical sense--so that is why I opted to overkill.
Thanks again to all of you for your input----
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Sounds like you went with number 6? Which is fine. Funny thing is on the spa and at the GFCI you have to trim enough wire off just to fit the ground wire into the hole. I also hope they let you know or you read it, that you will only need 3 wires from the GFCI to the spa? 2 loads and a ground. You will probably have to trim some wire off the leads going into the spa pac as well.
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Jim, I went with the 3 #4---- hot hot neutral and one#6 ground from main service to spa gfci and from the GFCI shut off to the spa with 3 #6 hot hot ground---now I am trying to figure out how to re-jump the board to have the 60 amp option at the spa--I have a vertical right side jumpers 1-5-8 &10---W_B_W_B respectively---can I get a picture and instructions on which wire should go where to get 60 amp option activated?
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An Optima for the most part is a Jacuzzi J-470 to change to the 60 amp you should do it through the topside control, not the actual board like we use to. Unless they have not changed it in the Sundance line, which I would find hard to believe..
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I can find nothing in the ownerts manuel referring to 50 amp vs 60 amp features activated by the digital controls on the top of the tub.
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Well if you can see the actual circuit board ? Then the instructions should be on the back side of the control box cover.
On Jacuzzi if I remember right jumpers 5&6 are 50 amp then move jumper to 7&8?
Found it on-line Page 83 jump 9&7 for 60 amp logic
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JP19-1 On = °C Off = °F
JP19-3 On = 50 Hz Off = 60 Hz
JP19-5 On = Enables the logic for the Multi-Color LED Light
Off = Enables the logic for the Incandescent Light
JP19-7 Not used
JP19-9 Not used
JP19-11 On = (4.0 Logic) Enables 2-speed pump 1 logic
Off = (2.0 Logic) Enables 1-speed pump 1 logic
JP9-1 On = Enables the trouble log
Off = Disables the trouble log
JP9-3 Not Used
JP9-5 Not used
JP9-7
On = Enables 60A logic (Allows 2 jets pumps and the heater
to operate at the same time)
Off = Enables 50A logic (Forces the heater to turn off when
more than 1 jets pump is running)
JP9-9 On = 2 or 3-Pump logic Off = 1 Pump logic
JP9-11
On = Enables 40A logic (Forces heater to turn off in any jets
pump is running in high speed or if the blower is on
Off = Disables 40A logic
JP9-13 On = (2.0 logic only) Allows only one jets pump and the
blower to operate at the same time
Off = Allows blower, jets pump 1 and jets pump 2 to operate
at the same time
JP9-15
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I see no way to post a photo here too bad!
I looked at the back of the panel cover---you were correct--I have a "TB401" strip which has "Ports" 1 through 11---where white and black wire(s) are---at present they are in position----1-White to pump 1, 5 Black to pump 1 and 8 White to pump 2 , 10 Black to pump 2.
There is a note on the panel that says "Installing jumper in position JP 9-7 requires upgraded electrical service. Consult your dealer.
My basic math tells me that there are several possibilities here and most will be wrong---nothing tells me which wire, which color comes off which number and goes to which new number!!!!!!!
I am a simple person I need an authority to say "black wire on strip TB401 port 5 to go from that port to strip TB401 port 7"---
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At this point get your dealer involved, that's what he's for! Sorry I don't know the Sundance board as well compared to the Jacuzzi. :(
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Well I wasn't going to do the switch myself--I have an appointment for a start up with the dealer and he can do it then--I just thought I would like to learn how---but no luck there--or here!
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Sorry for trying, and your welcome. Good luck to ya!
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Thanks for trying!
David
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Dr Spa---you have been called on your opinion that the ground needs to be as large as the feeders ( main service to gfci) and you chose not to stand up for your opinion! Why was that I see you are not shy about posting on other threads. Is it because the electricians on another forum (DIY Chat) werew correct and #4 feeders at 60 amp need only a number 8 ground--not a 6 as you stated?
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DaveMc, I am more interested in what you are going to do with the neutral wire when you get to the spa? When you understand the question, it you will save money, if you don't, your breaker will experience nuisance tripping, and with it remote in the backyard, it is unlikely you will know about it until you go to use it. You may find it empty, and that will cost even more.
This question alone, indicates not all spas are wired the same, so not all installations are the same. This continues onto the NEC which is the National Electric Code, but things change in the local municipality, and deals specifically with the particular installation. We have all argued with electricians of all levels and even some inspectors. We may not be electricians, but we know the specifics related to the spas we represent.
Experience also tells us, with the spa 175 feet away from the house, it will curb its use in the cold weather. Who wants to go that far in the snow to get into hot water, and then back to the house. Not the kids, and not the wife. But then, everyone is different too, maybe your situation will be different.
You will better understand this perspective after you have made that trip a couple of times in your robe, as it is too far to go in your birthday suit which is the best thing to wear in the hot tub.
As for Doc, he gave you his opinion, as for others, they too have an opinion and not all opinions are the same. The best advice is to call your local municipality and talk to the electrical inspector who will approve or red tag you installation. Why seek misinformation when you can go the approval source.
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Clover
Thank you for responding. If you are going to give an opinion on distance from the house it would serve you to better understand the question. The main service is 155 feet from the spa---that's main service Clover ---not spa from house---the spa is 12 feet from our bedroom on our back deck---no where in my writing will you find that the location of the spa is spelled out----thanks for the tip tho if I ever want to put a spa 175 feet from a house I will keep your tips in mind.
I think too you misunderstood the descriptions of neutrals---the main service is in the front of the house--with a 60 amp regular 2 pole 240 breaker-----from there 3-#4's and a ground (#6) go to the spa location--to a GFCI "spa Panel"---the neutral stops there and the GFCI neutral as well as the #4 neutral both connect to the neutral bar supplied in the box. From there only 3 wires go to the spa--#6--hot hot ground. So perhaps if you take the time to understand the question you can better offer your valuable advice.
I think most of us know that all spa's are not wired the same--pretty academic there!
Yes Doc gave me his opinion and actually I went with that but I was scolded by several electricians---and attempted to share that with Mr Dr Spa---but he would not step up to the plate and defend his opinion---so that is why I here---offered him a last opportunity to do that.
Thanks for trying to belittle me though but as you can see ---you should really be better prepared.
David
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Stop being an
(http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l438/musicisloveandlife/simon.jpg) (http://media.photobucket.com/user/musicisloveandlife/media/simon.jpg.html)
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Jim
When posters, be they self appointed experts, or the general public---choose to belittle the the average person seeking information---because they have an agenda or are having a bad day---they deserve feedback of like kind.
You seem to also have a proclivity towards defense ---rather than just weighing the facts and responding---nice self portrait tho!
David
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David, at no time did I ever intend to berate or belittle you, or your comments. So it must be the way you interpret the intent or purpose of what people say.
As you can see, we all can have an opinion, but none of us are dealing with the actual situation as you know it to be, leaving us all susceptible of being wrong in so many ways. This alone is reason enough to question any advice rendered.
As for distance of 175' indicated in your post, I personally, have never had anyone run service for that length of a distance, calling for a #4 AWG.
When you say, "I think most of us know that all spa's are not wired the same--pretty academic there!", certainly indicates that confusion can be a complicating factor, but then the NEC is pretty academic as well, and even that creates confusion that is being discussed here.
If my advice was valuable, you would be paying for it, so it is worth what everyone else has pointed out, not much, but you did post an inquiry.
Best wishes to you and yours in your hot tubing experience. That alone will put a smile on your face, and it will enhance your face value. ;)
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Jim
When posters, be they self appointed experts, or the general public---choose to belittle the the average person seeking information---because they have an agenda or are having a bad day---they deserve feedback of like kind.
You seem to also have a proclivity towards defense ---rather than just weighing the facts and responding---nice self portrait tho!
David
People like you come and go here all the time. Not going to lose sleep over it.. Good luck to you!
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What is this forum coming too. People come on here looking for advice, people give them answers to their questions for FREE and if the poster doesn't like the response or isn't quick enough with it they get a bunch of crap for it. I've been seeing this on this thread over the last few days. If you don't likre the advice you are being given call your dealer. They are the ones making the money not us
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Clover
The 175' reference in post #7 is for a previous project of mine as stated in that post--this project is 150 to 155 feet as stated---still a #4 is required at either one.
I took the tone of one of your posts to be a little demeaning---
As for J Jim---and his self portrait--well it is pretty mean spirited.
The basic question after all this fluff remains---what is the correct size for a ground 150 feet from the main service---and the answer appears to be a #10 or a #8---definitely not a number 6---even tho I opted for that---my recent quivery was to elicit an answer from Dr Spa--when one goofs doesn't one learn from that? and If you make a mistake what is the best way to treat that situation---I have and I advocate immediate apology and an understanding of the correct answer! How many of our politicians could benefit from that train of thought instead of hiding and trying to cover up their goof!
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Hotubguy
Same basic answer--if you give a wrong answer or are called on your answer aren't you compelled as a purported "expert" to research you answer and either defend or acquiesce as the case will call for?
The question was--what size ground for a 60 amp 155 foot run of 3-#4's and a ground---what size ground is required---6 8 or 10?
Dr Spa stated #6 and was refuted by several electricians--his way of dealing with this was to ignore it--hide if you will.
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whatever
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David, we are all good people here, and every now and then, some almighty powers come along and put us to the test.
We truly hope you enjoy your hot tub, but your perception of others who dare to contribute seems to come to you only the way you see it to be.
In as much as I had only one post, here in this thread, it appears you totally misread, misunderstood, or misinterpreted my post as demeaning.
I don't believe any of us represented ourselves as "experts" on the subject of your concern, as none of us are electricians. So this must be your perception of thinking of us as experts, even though, it seems to be the perception of others that maybe you should do what you advocate, and have a happy day. :)
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Well, I give up--my intent was to make clear that when you imply or state that you are an expert---or worked for 30 years in the industry, or know the industry---that the answers you give to people cause them to make decisions---decisions on materials or tools or brands---so if you know the answer-0--it helps the average joe, like me, but if you don't quite know the answer but you imply that you know what should be done--you are doing somewhat of a disservice. All this is especially true in electrical which as Dr Spa says is very detailed. I think that I would refer a poster to the DIY chatroom or some other electrical forum for electrically based questions.
Sorry if I misjudged anyones intent---
Our tub gets a start up tomorrow morning--so I will finally learn which jumpers will provide 60 amp service where the heater will run along with the pumps.
Have a good day all--and this is a good forum--
David