Hot Tub Forum

Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: mattwelke on September 04, 2014, 05:16:31 pm

Title: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: mattwelke on September 04, 2014, 05:16:31 pm
I began doing research into quartz crystals, they can be used to actually do what is called "structure water" Water moluclues can take many shapes that can alter the surface tension, freezing and boiling points, its failry documented but not well known.

Anyways I came across this company that claims you can strucutre your hot tub water and you wont need chemicals, I didnt look much into the system intself, but I saw a testamonial from someone on youtube that swears by it.

From my research and personal experimentation, that simply placing a quartz crystal into water, will structure the water. I did experiments myself where I saw structured and non structured water changed the surface tension of water just by leaving a few crystals in a pot of water overnight. The quartz crystal basically programs the water moluclues to change shape. Quartz and water can store information. You can reference a team of prinston researches that placed a 3d image of the mona lisa into a quartz crystal and then later retrieved it. Science is still unsure of exactly why it does this but they can prove that quartz is a date storage...anyways getting off topic here, I just want you guys to know that Im not loony toones or making this stuff up.

So I had about a half pound of quartz crystals and I placed them into my filter bucket so the water would pass over the quartz crystals and start to structure the water. Its been 2 weeks now and I have not put any bromine in my tub, iv used it about once every 2 days, and the water is perfectly clean and there is not a trace of any bacteria. Usually after a few days when the bromine pucks die off, the water will get a slight green tinge to it, and I shock the tub to get rid of it.

Its pretty interesting. I suggest to others to try this, if you start to see bacteria, simply shocking your tub will easily remove it. its a pretty simple, and safe procedure. Just be careful as the quartz can fracture and crack if it undergoes too quick a temature change so i warmed them up with warm water in my hands before i put them in the tub.

I bought the crystals off ebay for about $20. most shops sell small pieces for a few bucks each, Quartz is insanely common and abundent everywhere, and you dont need anything that looks pretty.

Heres hoping I dont need to use bromine any more, maybe ill shock it once a month..but im unsure how to proceed.

It may save you some money on chemicals and also help your health.

I realize that most hot tub manufactures arn't interested in putting these kinds of systems into their hottubs. Just like a car manufacture doesn't make cars that dont need oil changes or break down. Alot of money is made selling chemicals to customers and gets them into the stores to sell repeat hot tubs too.

If hottub companies really didnt want you to use chlorine or bromine in your tub, they would just make filters out of silver thread fibers which would only cost a extra $1 or $2 for the quanty of silver, and silver destroys all bacteria and pathogens on contact.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: mattwelke on September 04, 2014, 05:38:58 pm
Ill include some images
(http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag212/mattwelkephotography/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140903_185743_zpsm1yq7jrz.jpg)

(http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag212/mattwelkephotography/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140903_185748_zpsleazsdzr.jpg?1409866575532&1409866575891)

(http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag212/mattwelkephotography/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140903_190120_zpsntxzu4pg.jpg?1409866575517&1409866575891)

(http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag212/mattwelkephotography/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140903_190131_zpskgcssmxg.jpg)

(http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag212/mattwelkephotography/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140903_190305_zpsofoyhtu2.jpg?1409866689102&1409866689446)

Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Sam on September 04, 2014, 05:54:17 pm
Will you report back here when you get pseudomonas or folliculitis?
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Dr. Spa™ Ret. on September 04, 2014, 05:55:47 pm
Is it April 1st.?
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: mattwelke on September 04, 2014, 06:02:41 pm
Will you report back here when you get pseudomonas or folliculitis?

Yes I will!

Hocus Pocus? Investigate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFCQi00Adp0&list=PLZp5_v2xF1AeK-wNYxkHPTTToARuygWWI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzykZd6jKfQ

Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Dr. Spa™ Ret. on September 04, 2014, 07:44:14 pm
I have a magic grain of sand I found on the beach that will do the same thing. If you give me a couple of days, I can put up a youtube video proving it works...gimmie a couple more days and I can get my sister, or cousin to put up another video telling you how well it works for them. Oh, also, this magic grain of sand will turn lead into gold.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: clovett on September 04, 2014, 07:56:32 pm
I'll trade you a cow for your magic grain of sand, if it will grow a beanstalk to the land of gia.... wait I remember how that turned out.   Nevermind
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Tman122 on September 05, 2014, 05:58:13 am
Heres hoping I dont need to use bromine any more, maybe ill shock it once a month..but im unsure how to proceed.

Just shock it very lightly with dichlor after each use. My research suggests you can skip the quartz if you do that.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Spoiledrotten on September 05, 2014, 07:32:06 pm
I treat my water with very few chemicals. Bromine after each use and when the PH starts getting a little low, a couple of tablespoons of Baking Soda. Keeps the water crystal clear. Hmmm, without the crystals.

Good luck with your crystals. Might work... might not. It's your tub so I won't criticize. Hope you don't get some kind of bacteria, though.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Dr. Spa™ Ret. on September 05, 2014, 09:03:44 pm
Remember, baking soda also raises your TA quite a bit.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: chem geek on September 06, 2014, 02:09:14 am
From my research and personal experimentation, that simply placing a quartz crystal into water, will structure the water. I did experiments myself where I saw structured and non structured water changed the surface tension of water just by leaving a few crystals in a pot of water overnight. The quartz crystal basically programs the water moluclues to change shape. Quartz and water can store information. You can reference a team of prinston researches that placed a 3d image of the mona lisa into a quartz crystal and then later retrieved it. Science is still unsure of exactly why it does this but they can prove that quartz is a date storage...anyways getting off topic here, I just want you guys to know that Im not loony toones or making this stuff up.
:
If hottub companies really didnt want you to use chlorine or bromine in your tub, they would just make filters out of silver thread fibers which would only cost a extra $1 or $2 for the quanty of silver, and silver destroys all bacteria and pathogens on contact.

As described in this link (http://news.stanford.edu/pr/94/940804Arc4171.html), the researchers were from Stanford, not Princeton, the crystal was lithium niobate, not quartz, and there was no water involved.  I suggest you do a better job with your "research" and perhaps could start with Water Cluster Quackery (http://www.chem1.com/CQ/clusqk.html).

As for silver or even copper and silver, this post (http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/23319-converting-my-ecosmarte-system-to-chlorine?p=203066&viewfull=1#post203066) has a table of kill times for chlorine vs. copper and silver demonstrating that silver and copper ions do not kill bacteria quickly, they are not effective against viruses, and as for solid materials only the tiniest amount of water can directly contact them at any point in time so would not be effective in filtration systems using "threads" of silver.

As for whether you are "loony toones or making this stuff up", that's for others to decide.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Spoiledrotten on September 06, 2014, 07:08:12 am
Remember, baking soda also raises your TA quite a bit.

I have noticed that my TA is around 180 - 200. What damage can that do?
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: chem geek on September 06, 2014, 03:37:09 pm
It the combination of Total Alaklinity (TA), pH and Calcium Hardness (CH) are too high, then calcium carbonate can precipitate and scale, especially in the spa heater since that is at higher temperature.  If that occurs, the heater can overheat since there will be less heat transfer and the heat exchanger can get damaged (crack, leak) or an internal temperature sensor get tripped and the heater stop working.

You can use PoolMath (http://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html) to calculate the Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) to tell you if you are at risk.  Be sure to put in the temperature as well as the pH, TA, and CH.  Also put in the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level if you've been using Dichlor (or Trichlor) since the calculator needs to adjust TA for the calculation when CYA is present.  If your CSI is above 0 and especially above +0.3, then your spa risks getting scale, especially in the heater.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: buba on September 08, 2014, 07:00:20 pm
Where's the love?

Good luck in your experiment and please report back on how this works out for you (good or bad).

As chem geek pointed out, I think you will need something more than crystals to keep Ph, TA and sanitation under control.

Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: mattwelke on September 18, 2014, 11:24:23 am
I went 3 weeks without any chemicals and the water had no noticible color or odor. I then started using single bromine pucks once a week just as I feel I should do more research before I keep going.

Unfortunately there are not alot of scientests that are doing alot of research in this field of the properties of structred water. From this website strucuted water has the following properties:

"Dr. Gerald Pollack, professor of bioengineering at the University of Washington has provided significant evidence for water’s liquid crystalline structure. His research has demonstrated water’s capacity to form large zones of structured water. He has shown that this water has measurably different characteristics including: molecular stability, a negative electrical charge, greater viscosity, molecular alignment, and an enhanced ability to absorb certain spectra of light."
http://www.dancingwithwater.com/the-new-science-of-water/what-is-structured-water/

Who knows maybe he is a quack. There is another well know scientent named Marcel Vogel who worked at IBM labs who invented the LCD screen. He did alot of research into structured water and plant communication. There was a book published off his reasearch called the secret teachings of plants or something of a similar name.

When I placed quartz crystals into water and boiled it next to water that had no crystals in it, the boiling patterns were noticably different. I assume that was attributed to the greater viscosity of the water?

Im not claiming I have all the answers, although I have watched the free online courses on Crystal Research from MIT. I just have a open mind and believe there is something to this.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: mattwelke on September 18, 2014, 11:51:49 am
From my research and personal experimentation, that simply placing a quartz crystal into water, will structure the water. I did experiments myself where I saw structured and non structured water changed the surface tension of water just by leaving a few crystals in a pot of water overnight. The quartz crystal basically programs the water moluclues to change shape. Quartz and water can store information. You can reference a team of prinston researches that placed a 3d image of the mona lisa into a quartz crystal and then later retrieved it. Science is still unsure of exactly why it does this but they can prove that quartz is a date storage...anyways getting off topic here, I just want you guys to know that Im not loony toones or making this stuff up.
:
If hottub companies really didnt want you to use chlorine or bromine in your tub, they would just make filters out of silver thread fibers which would only cost a extra $1 or $2 for the quanty of silver, and silver destroys all bacteria and pathogens on contact.

As described in this link (http://news.stanford.edu/pr/94/940804Arc4171.html), the researchers were from Stanford, not Princeton, the crystal was lithium niobate, not quartz, and there was no water involved.  I suggest you do a better job with your "research" and perhaps could start with Water Cluster Quackery (http://www.chem1.com/CQ/clusqk.html).

As for silver or even copper and silver, this post (http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/23319-converting-my-ecosmarte-system-to-chlorine?p=203066&viewfull=1#post203066) has a table of kill times for chlorine vs. copper and silver demonstrating that silver and copper ions do not kill bacteria quickly, they are not effective against viruses, and as for solid materials only the tiniest amount of water can directly contact them at any point in time so would not be effective in filtration systems using "threads" of silver.

As for whether you are "loony toones or making this stuff up", that's for others to decide.

Yes you are 100% right about the university, I had it mixed up. And it was not quartz, but a crystaline structure with properties similar to quartz. But quartz can store information, is cheap, and can be grown to massive sizes quickly with low cost.

Hitachi says they can make harddrives out of quartz.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-09/25/hitachi-quartz-data-storage
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Dr. Spa™ Ret. on September 18, 2014, 02:57:51 pm
When I placed potatoes into water and boiled it next to water that had no potatoes in it, the boiling patterns were noticeably different.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Sam on September 18, 2014, 07:14:48 pm
When I placed potatoes into water and boiled it next to water that had no potatoes in it, the boiling patterns were noticeably different.

Well, based on your experiment, I have been treating my hot tub with red russet potatoes for the last 3 weeks.  I got these little bumps on my skin that itch real bad.  I think that means it's working!  Also, if you add carrots, onions and wabbit it is awfully tasty!  The potatoes basically program the water molecules to change shape and taste better. 
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Tman122 on September 18, 2014, 09:03:05 pm
Be nice guys.....LOL Why we all know this is total bunk there are many theory's and beliefs that are differing than ours. This is a free country but we should never chastise. Facts, no matter how impelling do not change our freedom to choose different.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Sam on September 19, 2014, 12:34:13 pm
Be nice guys.....LOL Why we all know this is total bunk there are many theory's and beliefs that are differing than ours. This is a free country but we should never chastise. Facts, no matter how impelling do not change our freedom to choose different.

You're right.  Sorry, I couldn't resist.    :-X
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Tman122 on September 20, 2014, 07:34:03 am
Be nice guys.....LOL Why we all know this is total bunk there are many theory's and beliefs that are differing than ours. This is a free country but we should never chastise. Facts, no matter how impelling do not change our freedom to choose different.

You're right.  Sorry, I couldn't resist.    :-X

I didn't say it wasn't funny  ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: mattwelke on September 20, 2014, 10:58:12 am
You guys can make fun all you really want it doesn't bother me.

I pointed out that Dr. Gerald Pollack from Washington university has been researching the properties of structured water. If you follow the links and read the research, hes been studying structured water there for 10 years. And he states in his research that pathogens cannot grow in structured water. Why don't you repeat his experiments and debunk him. I tried. No bacteria growth.  None of you seem to want to address the fact that I had no traces or bacteria growing in my hot tub. Temp was kept between 102f and 103f the entire time.

There is such a thing called cognitive dissonance that some of you may be experiencing. Look it up.

Good day everyone.



Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Tman122 on September 20, 2014, 03:31:49 pm
What if we don't have to look it up because we know what it means already?
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: DaveMc on September 20, 2014, 04:03:37 pm
I received a good quote from my favorite sister in law that seems to apply here----
"When you are dead you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for others.
 It is the same when you are stupid"
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: chem geek on September 20, 2014, 05:29:15 pm
The problem is that you are taking small pieces of information and connecting them together even though they are not related.  For example, water does have complex structures due to its very small very polar molecules forming hydrogen bonds that can find all kinds of low-energy structures.  Gerald H Pollack focuses his study on one such structure that he says forms when water is next to a hydrophillic substance in what he calls an exclusion zone (EZ) where the water forms hexagonal planes with negative charge (he claims H3O2 in ratio, but that may be way more charge than his voltage and current measurements indicate) and where light, especially infrared light, is the energy driving force.  This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y--L6BoH3Ug) goes into more detail on his theories and I'll discuss some of this later in this post.  This paper (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp908163w) is one of many he has authored or co-authored on this subject.

However, you attribute storing information in a quartz crystal that is etched by a laser as having anything to do with throwing in some quartz crystals into water somehow affecting the water due to quartz being able to store "information".  Also, having some water structures resemble some specific quartz crystal structures does not mean throwing some quartz crystal into water does anything beneficial.  The exclusion zone produced from hydrophilic materials is small on macroscopic terms (i.e. 400 micrometers and while it can grow larger in still water, it would not in water that circulates), but quartz crystal is not even hydrophilic!  Basically, Pollack does not make any claims of using quartz crystals  for killing bacteria in water or anything like that (please link to HIS sources that claim that; not what other people incorrectly attribute to him or imply that he said).  This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVBEwn6iWOo) that is a presentation he made to a university audience describes at one point how one could purify water by separating out water from the exclusion zone from the rest of the water.  That is NOT the same as throwing in some crystals into water and expecting it to get disinfected.

What has happened is that greedy selfish people who want to make money have taken advantage by hijacking some of what Pollack has said (i.e. that water forms a crystalline structure in the exclusion zone) and then adding to it complete bunk such as claiming that putting in some quartz crystals into your water will disinfect it.  Pollack didn't even say the crystal structure was like quartz -- he said it was closer to ice in that the crystals are hexagonal (standard alpha quartz crystals are trigonal in structure; it is only beta quartz crystals that are hexagonal).  Companies such as this one (http://www.structuredwaterunit.com) (and many, many, many others -- search on "structured water") refer to his science but then make up stuff about it and sell products for profit.

Let's now look in more detail at some of what Pollack has said.  He stretched his observations in the lab into trying to explain breatharianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia) and specifically Prahlad Jani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prahlad_Jani).  People who have tried to follow these practices have died and those are well documented.  Is it possible that there are a rare few who can survive without food and with minimal water?  Nothing was submitted to scientific scrutiny -- the doctor did not publish results, did not keep Jani within CCTV at all times, etc.  He made these claims in the first video I showed so apparently when speaking to a lay person audience he gets more sloppy in his thinking.  As noted in this review (http://jcs.biologists.org/content/115/19/3717), with biology he does nothing but speculation without scientific experiment to back it up (unlike his more pure EZ work).

Pollack did not make any measurements demonstrating a positive potential of urine (he claimed in his presentation) and I could find no such research supporting this assertion.  There is the concept of the Urinary Anion Gap (http://www.anaesthesiamcq.com/AcidBaseBook/ab3_4.php) also known as "urinary net charge", but that is because urine tests measure sodium, potassium, and chloride and do not measure other ions including ammonium, calcium, magnesium, bicarbonate, sulphate, phosphate, and organic ions.  Again, there is no evidence of any actual net charge in urine.

Overall, the second video of his is much better in sticking to actual scientific observation and explanation, but again there is nothing in his research that says throwing some quartz crystals in water is going to disinfect it.

How do you know that you don't have bacteria in your spa?  Did you have tests done at a laboratory to confirm that?  Do you have an ozonator in your spa?  What do you think the green is coming from?  Is it algae?  Why would you think that algae would grow but bacteria would not?  Are there any areas of the spa, say right above the water line, that feel slimy?  Keep us posted because without adding any oxidizer or having an ozonator you will simply be soaking in your sweat and urine, just like taking a bath in the same water over and over again.  That sure doesn't sound pleasant even ignoring the fecal bacteria and other fecal matter introduced every time you soak.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Tman122 on September 20, 2014, 07:56:37 pm
Game, Set and Match.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: chem geek on September 21, 2014, 02:24:50 am
Here are some gems from this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzykZd6jKfQ) mattwelke linked to earlier.

"Victoria White.  My husband and I are happy owners of a number of Natural Action Technologies - water structuring devices."
Rule #1: Beware of any claims from someone who has a financial interest in you believing his/her claims.

"Structured water is water in nature.  It is living water.  It's full of life force energy which has been called bio-photonic.  Energy as well as qi (chi) or prana.  It's got a light to it.  It can actually be measured."
Seems like we've gone a ways away from the exclusion zone (EZ) theory.

"Since we have put the structuring device on this, we have never put any chemicals in our Jacuzzi."

"... all natural materials; Mother Nature materials from around the world many of which are rare and hard to come by ... and they add energy to it; synergistically works well with the structuring that happens naturally through the vortexing; there's a double vortexing that happens simultaneously and the water through physics gets structured but then it also basically gets amplified having the dynamically advanced materials in there."

"One of the things that this does that filters will not do, still won't do, is it erases the negative memory in water.  And if anybody is familiar with homeopathy they know that you can put vibration into water and that it can be good or it can be bad.  And so when water goes through this it will erase all of that."
Bad water (wags one's finger)...bad, bad, water.

"It will energetically neutralize anything that is unhealthy, any toxins, any contaminants in the water and it will energetically enhance those things that are healthy."
As noted below, this will be due to the activated carbon in the inline filter, not the structure of the water.

And there are more videos you can watch for your entertainment in this link (http://www.biophotonicwater.com).  Note that the "new" charcoal colored material added to their newer units is essentially activated carbon (one commenter to Victoria's video said it was the mineral shungite which is a form of carbon with some disinfecting properties -- see this paper (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1134/S1070427206030128) for example) used primarily to remove chlorine so you don't smell that from the tap water and of course activated carbon filters also remove many other chemicals, but the video claims it's about electromagnetism or ion exchange or some such.
Title: Re: Crystal Clear Water, No Need For Chemicals? Structure your Water.
Post by: Budule on September 21, 2014, 09:38:13 am
How do you know that you don't have bacteria in your spa?  Did you have tests done at a laboratory to confirm that?  Do you have an ozonator in your spa?  What do you think the green is coming from?  Is it algae?  Why would you think that algae would grow but bacteria would not?  Are there any areas of the spa, say right above the water line, that feel slimy?  Keep us posted because without adding any oxidizer or having an ozonator you will simply be soaking in your sweat and urine, just like taking a bath in the same water over and over again.  That sure doesn't sound pleasant even ignoring the fecal bacteria and other fecal matter introduced every time you soak.


Hold on a dang minute here , ......there's poop in my water ?