Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: aroy11462 on March 24, 2014, 11:33:51 pm
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I am gong to be purchasing a hot tub for a vacation rental in the Lake Tahoe area. The two models I am considering are the Caldera Vanto ($6,463) and the Marquis 2 Pump Promise ($8,677). I was also considering a 1 month old Marquis E750 ($6,171), but eliminated it since it does not have full foam insulation. Prices include cover, delivery and taxes. I am a first time hot tub buyer, so please excuse any questions that don't make sense. The main things that are important to me are the total cost of ownership including repairs, dependability, and the quality in terms of how long I can expect it to last. I know the Marquis Promise has a 5 year component warranty versus 2 on the Caldera Vanto and has 46 jets versus 36 jets on the Vanto. Beyond that what are the features and reasons that would justify spending the extra money on the Marquis Promise. Any opinions or feedback would be greatly appreciated on which is a better option would be greatly appreciated. I don’t mind spending the extra money of it makes sense. My family will be using the hot tub sparingly, so we don’t care to much about the number of jets and marginally increased therapeutic value. A couple of things I would like to verify.
- I have been told that 2 lb FiberCor insulation on the Caldrea Vanto is 4 times the insulation of the .5 full foam of Marquis Promise and thus better. Is this correct?
- I was told that the Vanto is equal or better on terms of flow rate, energy efficiency, shell quality, and both having a thermostatic pump versus a 24 hour dedicated pump. The Caldera salesman did say that the Vanto does not have an Ozone system, while I know the Promise does. He said he could include the ozone system option, but ozone systems aren’t near as effective, if you don’t have a 24 hour dedicated pump. Is this all correct?
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All of the above are correct. Other points to consider, especially on vacation home are the dealer and service of the tub. How long have they been around? How long carrying the same brand. Things like that.
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I wouldn't say the Caldera is anymore energy efficient and certainly not 4x as efficient. The construction and she'll on the marquis are going to be better. You are looking at a high end tub and a entry level tub so you aren't really comparing apples to apples. The 2 pump promise has a ton of power and actually has 48 jets on the 2 pump version. Caldera makes a nice tub but the marquis is a much better tub in the signature line them the vacanza series caldera
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I wouldn't say the Caldera is anymore energy efficient and certainly not 4x as efficient. The construction and she'll on the marquis are going to be better. You are looking at a high end tub and a entry level tub so you aren't really comparing apples to apples. The 2 pump promise has a ton of power and actually has 48 jets on the 2 pump version. Caldera makes a nice tub but the marquis is a much better tub in the signature line them the vacanza series caldera
And the warranty on the Marquis is better.
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I wouldn't say the Caldera is anymore energy efficient and certainly not 4x as efficient. The construction and she'll on the marquis are going to be better. You are looking at a high end tub and a entry level tub so you aren't really comparing apples to apples. The 2 pump promise has a ton of power and actually has 48 jets on the 2 pump version. Caldera makes a nice tub but the marquis is a much better tub in the signature line them the vacanza series caldera
How exactly is the construction and shell better on the Marquis? That's a very general statement and I think they're comparable even though they are different. As far as insulation, the Vacanza switched to the Fibercor material which has tested as being a serious improvement in energy efficiency over simply filling the cavity with 1/2 pound foam as Caldera used to have and most other brands use but I'm not sure where the 4x comes from. The Vacanza series has been a winner from day one but of course he could upgrade to the Paradise or Utopia models which are similarly priced to the Promise if he chose to but I assume he was looking at the Vacanza due in part to the cost savings which is noticeable.
Both Caldera and Marguis are good choices really.
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Now that's how you diffuse a potentially volatile situation.
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I wouldn't say the Caldera is anymore energy efficient and certainly not 4x as efficient. The construction and she'll on the marquis are going to be better. You are looking at a high end tub and a entry level tub so you aren't really comparing apples to apples. The 2 pump promise has a ton of power and actually has 48 jets on the 2 pump version. Caldera makes a nice tub but the marquis is a much better tub in the signature line them the vacanza series caldera
How exactly is the construction and shell better on the Marquis? That's a very general statement and I think they're comparable even though they are different. As far as insulation, the Vacanza switched to the Fibercor material which has tested as being a serious improvement in energy efficiency over simply filling the cavity with 1/2 pound foam as Caldera used to have and most other brands use but I'm not sure where the 4x comes from. The Vacanza series has been a winner from day one but of course he could upgrade to the Paradise or Utopia models which are similarly priced to the Promise if he chose to but I assume he was looking at the Vacanza due in part to the cost savings which is noticeable.
Both Caldera and Marguis are good choices really.
Isn't the vacanza series the same shell as what a hot spot uses? That would be like a Hot Springs dealer saying there is no difference in construction between the Hot Spots and the High lifes. Of course there is. But to answer the question, The cabinet on the Marquis is thicker and of higher quality materials, the bottom is completely sealed with an ABS pan (don't think that's true on the Vacanza series pretty sure it's just a sheet stapled to the bottom), The warranty on the structure is double, warranty on components is 5 versus 2. Like I said before Caldera makes a fine tub but he isn't comparing apples to apples. The proper comparison would be to the Utopia series or the E-series or celebrity series Caldera to the vacanza
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If I were to upgrade to the Caldera Paradise series with the Martinique what would be the benefits beyond the warranty? The sales person said the shells are the same? I was told that the Martinique has a 24 hour circulation pump and freeze protection, while the Promise does not have these features. Is that correct?
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The marquis doesn't have a circ pump. It uses one of the main pumps to filter the water. Marquis got away from using those about 10 years ago. What does he mean by freeze protection? All tubs have this if the water temp goes below what you have it set for the pumps come on. If your heater goes bad the tub will continuously circulate the water. Unless Caldera does things differently then Hot springs then the shells used in those 2 series are absolutely different. I think the paradise and Utopia series Caldera's are both very good tubs. They compete well against the marquis signature series tubs. I happen to sell Marquis and find that the construction on them as far as workmanship is second to none. Plus they are made in the USA.
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If I were to upgrade to the Caldera Paradise series with the Martinique what would be the benefits beyond the warranty? The sales person said the shells are the same? I was told that the Martinique has a 24 hour circulation pump and freeze protection, while the Promise does not have these features. Is that correct?
The Paradise series does, in fact, have a more sophisticated freeze protection than most spas on the market. It is related to the wiring. With 2 circuits going to the hot tub, 1 is associated with the circulation pump and one with the heater. If the GFCI trips because of the heater going bad, the circulation pump keeps the water moving. On other tubs, if the GFCI trips, the tub shuts down.
As has been stated, both are good brands. With the upgrade you are asking about, you are closer to comparable tubs.
Once again, what about the dealers?
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I wouldn't say the Caldera is anymore energy efficient and certainly not 4x as efficient. The construction and she'll on the marquis are going to be better. You are looking at a high end tub and a entry level tub so you aren't really comparing apples to apples. The 2 pump promise has a ton of power and actually has 48 jets on the 2 pump version. Caldera makes a nice tub but the marquis is a much better tub in the signature line them the vacanza series caldera
How exactly is the construction and shell better on the Marquis? That's a very general statement and I think they're comparable even though they are different. As far as insulation, the Vacanza switched to the Fibercor material which has tested as being a serious improvement in energy efficiency over simply filling the cavity with 1/2 pound foam as Caldera used to have and most other brands use but I'm not sure where the 4x comes from. The Vacanza series has been a winner from day one but of course he could upgrade to the Paradise or Utopia models which are similarly priced to the Promise if he chose to but I assume he was looking at the Vacanza due in part to the cost savings which is noticeable.
Both Caldera and Marguis are good choices really.
Isn't the vacanza series the same shell as what a hot spot uses? That would be like a Hot Springs dealer saying there is no difference in construction between the Hot Spots and the High lifes. Of course there is. But to answer the question, The cabinet on the Marquis is thicker and of higher quality materials, the bottom is completely sealed with an ABS pan (don't think that's true on the Vacanza series pretty sure it's just a sheet stapled to the bottom), The warranty on the structure is double, warranty on components is 5 versus 2. Like I said before Caldera makes a fine tub but he isn't comparing apples to apples. The proper comparison would be to the Utopia series or the E-series or celebrity series Caldera to the vacanza
Spa price and/or warranty length has nothing to do with shell thickness. The Vacanza shells are made the same way as the Paradise and Utopia and are just as good as the Marquis. In this case the longer warranty is just that way because that's what the customer pays for when they upgrade, its not indicative of the quality of the material or process. a longer warranty is always nice but its really paid for within the price of the spa.
I agree that the two spas aren't directly equal but the customer knows that and obviously wanted a less expensive option and could easily upgrade to a Paradise model or even a Utopia model for a more direct comparison.
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If I were to upgrade to the Caldera Paradise series with the Martinique what would be the benefits beyond the warranty? The sales person said the shells are the same? I was told that the Martinique has a 24 hour circulation pump and freeze protection, while the Promise does not have these features. Is that correct?
The step up to the Paradise would be nice and you'll like having the circ pump which is quieter, a little more energy efficient and the setup is great for freeze protection if your heater ever went out. Also the Paradise has a nicer controls, some bigger jets, larger filter, different lighting... and of course the warranty length but again, warranty length is not indicative of quality, you're just getting a longer one. Both are really good options, it really depends on what you're looking for and of course your budget; the Vacanza is really a great choice when you're trying to keep it under a certain price point but the Paradise is always nicer if the cost difference isn't an issue for you.
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Well I guess I was wrong then. I thought the shell material in the vacanza series was like the hot spot version of hot springs. Last time I saw a vacanza the shell didn't look as heavy duty as the there other series tubs.
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Well I guess I was wrong then. I thought the shell material in the vacanza series was like the hot spot version of hot springs. Last time I saw a vacanza the shell didn't look as heavy duty as the there other series tubs.
the vacanza shell is the same as the Hot Spot shell and also the same as the Caldera Utopia which is all good. Hot Spring is a different shell material and process all together though and good as well. They are different but that doesn't mean one is inferior. They're different the same way the Marquis shells are different than Jacuzzi shells but both are fine on their own.
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Both dealers have good reviews on Yelp and have been in business for a long time. One is a about 20 minutes closer to me.
Can anyone explain the the difference/benefits between having a circulation pump with Utopia series and not with the Vacanza series. Also does the Marquis not having a circulation pump make it more like the Vacanza series or is that like trying to compare apples and oranges.
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One other question - The price difference between the Vanto and the Promise or Martinique is $2,500. Although I still may pay more to get a better quality hot tub with more features, I was wondering what the chances are of recouping the $2,500 because of repairs that would be covered with a longer warranty or the more expensive models lasting longer. How long can I expect these hot tubs to last? If I have to replace it 10-13 years, I may make sense to get a nicer one then when we are no longer renting the home out.
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In my opinion you're comparing apples and oranges. The Marquis e-Series 750 compares closer to the Caldera Vanto. The Promise would definitely be a step up. The warranty on the Promise is quite a bit longer, the construction is also quite different. You will find a fully-sealed ABS plastic bottom on the Promise instead of a wood-framed bottom on the Vanto. The DuraWood cabinet on the Marquis is also stronger and also very scratch resistant. It willl also never fade from sunlight or weather. Marquis uses some of the best insulation on the market, and I doubt you will notice any energy difference between the two spas. In fact, the Marquis is likely more efficient because of a thicker cover and a linear heat seal that seals off any energy loss down the center seam of the cover. Also, you might look at the equipment area where everything is kept in both spas, you will see some big fit-and-finish differences. The ozone system works well on the Marquis, even without being on 24/7.
If you're trying to get the price down, just go with the 1 pump Promise, it's still a great spa, it just won't have geyser jets in the bottom, and it will still have some foot jets. It's a perfect tub for a vacation rental.
Also if it makes a difference to you, Marquis Hot Tubs are made up in Oregon, and the Calderas are being built in Mexico the last I heard.
Good luck in your search.
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Both dealers have good reviews on Yelp and have been in business for a long time. One is a about 20 minutes closer to me.
Can anyone explain the the difference/benefits between having a circulation pump with Utopia series and not with the Vacanza series. Also does the Marquis not having a circulation pump make it more like the Vacanza series or is that like trying to compare apples and oranges.
I've owned/sold both types but personally very much prefer a circ pump for the silence (vs the pump in filter mode for 6 hrs /day), for the energy efficiency (24 hrs of the circ running is less than the 6 hrs of that main pump filtering), for ozone which will be on 24/7 (vs 6 hrs/day with the main pump). Its an upgrade on the Utopia that is well worth it IMO but that alone should decide whether you go the Utopia or Vacanza route, there are other upgrades on the Utopia series as well. In the end the Vacanza is a nice option and easier on the wallet but you'll like having the circ pump if you go that route.
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Also if it makes a difference to you, Marquis Hot Tubs are made up in Oregon, and the Calderas are being built in Mexico the last I heard....
Aren't a lot of hot tubs made in Mexico now.
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Also if it makes a difference to you, Marquis Hot Tubs are made up in Oregon, and the Calderas are being built in Mexico the last I heard....
Aren't a lot of hot tubs made in Mexico now.
As far as I know just Watkins (freeflow, hot springs and caldera) and everything jacuzzi owns (jacuzzi, sundance, dimension one and thermospas)
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Also if it makes a difference to you, Marquis Hot Tubs are made up in Oregon, and the Calderas are being built in Mexico the last I heard....
Aren't a lot of hot tubs made in Mexico now.
As far as I know just Watkins (freeflow, hot springs and caldera) and everything jacuzzi owns (jacuzzi, sundance, dimension one and thermospas)
Free flow, Hot Spring and Limelight are all made in Vista California...not sure about Caldera or Jacuzzi and Sundance. Hot Spot is made in Watkins Mexico facilities. ...
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Also if it makes a difference to you, Marquis Hot Tubs are made up in Oregon, and the Calderas are being built in Mexico the last I heard....
Aren't a lot of hot tubs made in Mexico now.
As far as I know just Watkins (freeflow, hot springs and caldera) and everything jacuzzi owns (jacuzzi, sundance, dimension one and thermospas)
Free flow, Hot Spring and Limelight are all made in Vista California...not sure about Caldera or Jacuzzi and Sundance. Hot Spot is made in Watkins Mexico facilities. ...
Not that it matters, but the following are made in Mexico: Caldera. Jacuzzi. Hot Spot. Sundance. Dimension 1. Hot Spring Limelight Collection. Made in Vista, CA: Hot Spring Highlife. Free Flow. Fantasy. Even Aquaterra, sold at Costco.com.
So, yes, a lot of spas are made in Mexico, close to the US border.
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In the interest of full disclosure, unlike some of the other participants in this discussion which are Hot Spring dealers (A sister company to Caldera), I'm an employee of Marquis Spas and have a dog in the fight but will try to be as factual as possible.
Whether you end up with a Marquis or Caldera, you will have a tub that you will enjoy for many years that is energy efficient and backed by a good company that usually has good reliable dealers that will properly service you and your spa. Both spas meet the stringent CEC requirements for energy efficiency, and if one or the other is more efficient, it will be by pennies a month, so there's no need to belabor the conversation on energy efficiency.
One philosophy where Marquis and Caldera part ways is in regard to filtration. Marquis was one of the first manufacturers to incorporate 24 hour filtration many years ago, as did Caldera and Hot Spring, under the belief that always filtering the water was a good thing, and a good sales story. But, we soon found that it became our #1 warranty claim with a small pump continuously running at a low volume making it and the heater susceptible to corrosion and mineral deposits. So we engineered it out of our tubs in favor of a high flow system that filters approximately 10x as much water in a day and does a much better job of skimming the surface where body oil, dirt, hair etc, accumulate. And, the system provides 100% filtration (Something Caldera boasts) from top to bottom also picking up heavier particles from the suctions located at the bottom of the spa. it also has smart logic programming that filters and purifies the water based upon how often you use the spa. The more use use the spa, the more it filters and sanitizes the water. When you finish using the tub, it waits 30 minutes to allow hair, dirt, body oil, etc to flat to the surface and then automatically comes on to skim it all away. Another benefit promoted by 24 hr circ pump systems is that they are quiet. With a Marquis, you can rest assured that it is one of the quietest spas in the industry, if not the quietest, not only when filtering, but also when both 160 GPM pumps are running on high speed to provide therapy second to none in the spa industry.
Someone else mentioned that you are comparing apples to oranges with the models you are comparing, which is true. The Caldera model is lower priced and has a lower warranty than the Promise because it is in one of their lower to mid level lines. The Signature Series, which the Promise is in, is Marquis upper level series and includes a Corona Discharge ozone purification system and Frog in-line dispenser system as standard features in addition to Marquis exclusive Durawood exterior, which has never failed in the ten plus years its been in the field, and Durabase bottom which completely seals the spa from rodents and moisture. The Signature Series spas also have Marquis exclusive HOT zone therapy system, WiFi capability so that you can operate your spa from anywhere in the world, and much more. The e-Series models by Marquis are more comparable in price and features to the Caldera model being considered.
Marquis is an employee owned company that still manufacturers our spas in the USA, which is important to some and not others, while other manufacturers, such as Caldera, have chosen to move production and jobs out of the country to places like Mexico to cut costs. If that's the case, I don't see much of a cost difference between comparable products. And quite frankly, I believe that the employee owners of Marquis just flat out care and have more pride about the products we make and sell around the world.
Pomin's Hot Tubs is the Marquis dealer in Tahoe, and has been for over 30 years. They pride themselves on their customer service, and service the majority of spas on the north side of the lake, whether it is a Marquis or not.
One last thing, the base of a Caldera is wood and comes in direct contact with the ground and any moisture on it, making it susceptible to rot over time. All Marquis spas are sealed, with the Signature Series models including the Durabase. Considering that snow will be caked up against your spa at times, that may be something important to consider. If you'd like to see photographs of each base, you can contact Pomin's for photos.
Good luck on making your decision and enjoy whatever hot tub you decide on. Either one will be a great experience in a setting like Lake Tahoe.
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I'll talk about Marquis...the other company has a tendency to threaten with corporate attorney's and become bullies if I bring up their name.
I've had my ups and downs with Marquis as a dealer then selling against them however, if I was buying today they would still probably be my first choice! Their team is one of the best I've ever worked with and I use my Marquis Epic almost every night!
We've moved into the arena of refurbished spas along with new over the last several years and every Marquis I've traded in is easily rebuildable and still a good unit while over half of the other brand has had to go to the landfill because they were to far gone. Understand, I'm talking about spas made in the 2000's, not ancient ones.