Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Quickbeam on January 16, 2014, 02:06:24 am
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My wife and I are just starting the process of looking for our first hot tub. We haven't yet been to many dealers and have not done any wet testing, as we have been busy doing some reno's in our home. I have however been doing a lot of research online.
I know I need to wet test, but one tub I am definitely interested in is the Sundance Cameo. From what I can see on the website, the layout looks almost perfect for our situation. Whatever tub we get will be going in the corner of a roof deck. We have a view of a lake, and I would like the tub situated so we can take maximum advantage of that view. The Cameo does all that.
The only thing is, when we built this cabin we told the electrician we wanted a hot tub on the deck and he wired it for us, but I have now found out he wired it for 50 amp service. I have talked to the electrician about it, and we could get 60 amp service, but it would mean drilling a hole somewhere in the basement, running conduit up the side of the house, etc., etc. In other words it can be done, but it will probably be a lot of work. Haven't talked to him yet about costs.
I searched this forum and found some advice saying if you have the choice, definitely go with 60 amp service and found a couple of others who were running their tub on 50 amp service and said they didn't notice not having the 60 amps.
I know I'm putting the cart ahead of the horse with this, as we haven't even wet tested the tub yet, but I like to do my research ahead of time.
So, if any of you can help me with this, what will I be missing on the Cameo with just the 50 amp service? I read somewhere that if you run all the pumps the heater will shut off. By this I am assuming I would at least be able to run all the pumps with the 50 amp service??? Is just having the 50 amp. service a big inconvenience? If anyone can give me any advice or guidance on this it would be much appreciated. Thank you.
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If there is only one jet pump, a circ pump and a heater the 50 amps will run it. But if there are 2 pumps 60 amps may be required to run both pumps and the heater at the same time. Look at the electrical specs of the tub or ask the dealer.
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50 and 60 amp are commonly run with 6 gage wire. Cant you just change out the breaker(s) to 60amp and change the connections at the tub 60 amp (if it's even required on your specific model).
My setup has a 60amp breaker on the main panel running to a spa sub-panel with 60amp GFCI breaker.
That's about $90 in parts (if memory serves) and less than half an hour of labor.
So I think you need a second opinion on how to upgrade the service. I'm skeptical running new wire would be required.
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I got this from the Sundance owners manual on line. It appears you can wire it with a 50 or 60 amp GFCI. Here is what is says:
In 50A configuration, the heaterwill not operate while both pumps are operating at high speed.
Note: pump 2 runs only in high speed.
**
In 30A configuration, the heaterwill not operate while either pump is running in high speed or if the air blower is running. Note: pump 2 runs only in high speed.
In 60A configuration, the heater will operate at the same time as the high speed of both pumps and the air blower.
Note: Not applicable for
1-pump Capri models.
http://www.sundancespas.com/Communications/InstructionManuals/2001850.pdf (http://www.sundancespas.com/Communications/InstructionManuals/2001850.pdf)
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50 and 60 amp are commonly run with 6 gage wire. Cant you just change out the breaker(s) to 60amp and change the connections at the tub 60 amp (if it's even required on your specific model).
My setup has a 60amp breaker on the main panel running to a spa sub-panel with 60amp GFCI breaker.
That's about $90 in parts (if memory serves) and less than half an hour of labor.
So I think you need a second opinion on how to upgrade the service. I'm skeptical running new wire would be required.
I agree. I am no expert, but if the wiring was ran with 6 gauge, all you should need to do is change out the breaker size. But, I am guessing maybe they used a lighter gauge wire since they are recommending re-doing it.
I really wouldn't be too concerned running the spa on a 50 amp breaker if it were me. There may be times when it is really windy that the spa wont keep up with the temperature. But, I would say most of the time it wouldn't be that big of a deal.
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for the responses. I had done an online search before I put this posting up, and had read that 6 guage wire could be used for 60 amp. I then phoned and asked my electrician if he was absolutely sure we would need to re-wire for the 60 amp service and he said by our electrical code he would need to re-wire. I'm not an electrician so I didn't get into specifics with him, but he is a good electrician and I think I am going to trust what he is telling me.
Again, I would be very interested to hear from anyone who actually has either this tub or another Sundance or Jacuzzi tub that has the 60 amp setting but is only running it on 50 amps. Do you find that you are missing anything with running it on 50 amps? And as always, any other thoughts are much appreciated.
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I have owned a couple of different Sundance Spas here in cold Columbus, Ohio
and had the 50A set up both times. If I needed a boost in temp., all I had to do
was to turn off one of the jet pumps and the heater responded quickly to get
back into a comfortable range.
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With years of experience, I can assure you, 50 amp service is fully adequate. It is only a question in your mind right now to do the right thing, but 50 amp service is fully adequate for your spa, UNLESS you are a party person and expect to have this beast runing 1 to 2 hours with the cover open in the depth of winter, and multiple people in the spa.
In other words, you, and your family, will not realize the absense of 60 amp service, and when you get the cost of 6 ga. copper and the labor to do it, while abandoning the cost of what has already been provided, you will be astounded.
In detail, if each pump 1 & 2 pull 12 to 13 amps, that does not leave room for another 22 amps to run the heater and remain within the limits of the 50 amp breaker, as your circ pump is possibly runnig as well. The idea that you will need the heater to be on during normal use of the spa during winter conditions is unlikely. If it happens once in your lifetime, turn one of the pumps off and the heater is on.
If you are a party animal, and plan the use of the tub in excess, below freezing temperatures, then consider it, but that would make you "not normal".
If you have unlimited resources, don't need to balance your checkbook, and you are going to lose sleep over this issue go ahead and do it, as it will remove the question from your mind. ;)
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I have the Sundance Optima and it's wired on 50 amp service. I have never needed to have the heater going when both pumps are running. We can get in the tub at 103 degrees and run both pumps for 20 min. and never lose more than 2 degrees in temp. We tub for about 1/2 hour usually. If you planned on staying in the tub an hour or more it is not likely that you would want both pumps (all the jets) on the whole time. You can always turn off one pump and the heater will come on. Save your money and stick with 50 amps.
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Thanks so much for all your replies. I feel a whole lot better about the 50 amp service now and I'll just stick with it. If I find that for some reason it's not enough, then I can always upgrade later. And all this of course, is IF we end up with the Cameo. That is not a sure thing as we haven't even wet tested yet. Thanks again.
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Whatever tub we get will be going in the corner of a roof deck.
Not something you asked about, but was that roof deck initially designed to withstand the additional load of a Hot tub?
Most normal decking situations will require additional support of some type, and a corner location might require particular attention to structural loads.
you're talking right at 4700 lbs. Not all roof decks will support that much of a load in an 7.5 ft by 7.5 ft area.
That's more than a number of automobiles weigh.
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Thanks for the concern, but we are good. We are engineered to 5,000 pounds. That includes the weight of the tub and the water.
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Ok, we just christened our cameo last night. Our dealer told us that you could use 50 amp service but 60 was best. You can't run heater and both pumps all sting the same time. I'll double check the owners manual later today just to verify. I can tell you that we were outside in 29 degrees in the snow temp had been set at 101 and had dropped slightly to 99 in an hour. That was with the heater still running.
Good luck on your search!!!!!!!
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Wiring cost.......$1800.00
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Ok, we just christened our cameo last night.....we were outside in 29 degrees in the snow temp had been set at 101 and had dropped slightly to 99 in an hour. That was with the heater still running.
Good luck on your search!!!!!!!
I would only add, the temperature must drop 2° before the heater is activated. If you spent an hour in the tub, that is predictable for a new user, but the time may be reduced as time progresses.
In this case, with the water at 101°, you could increase the temp to 103°, which would activate the heater and maintain, or elevate the temp,
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Thanx clover!!!!! We appreciate any tips we can get!!!!!!
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I work in the electrical field, I would recommend going with the 60a, I had the cameo and thats what i had installed, my total installation cost was 600 dollars, well worth, me not having to do it and i live in upstate NY. I personally would want the heater to work, while i have 2 pumps going, which is exactly what the cameo has. Although, I would look in the installation manual, it may require the same wire gauge and all that would be needed is to change the breaker (GFI) of course, but each state has its own electrical codes, so that is why the electrician, probably wanted to rewire, but even so, it shouldn't be that expensive to wire a tub, there really is not too much to it, if you follow the wiring diagram provided by the manufacturer. Of course, if you do it yourself, you will have to have a Master Electrician, sign off on it.
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..... if you do it yourself, you will have to have a Master Electrician, sign off on it.
:)
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This can be a pretty complex question.
Whether or not you can do it satisfactorily or not depends a good bit on ambient temp, and your usage.
However, whether it can be done safely or not ( with a reasonable safety margin ) depends on gauge of the wire, length of the run and duty cycle.
I suggest you determine the gauge of the wire ( by calling the electrician or verifying for your self by pulling panel cover) estimate the length of the run, get the amperage you will be drawing when wired for 50 amp operation. Do the calculations, and remain within 75% of the load carrying capability of the circuit, particularly for this type of usage.
Undersized (by load carrying capability ) circuits have a way of becoming safety issues, or repair issues when some the various things that can happen do. Such as, loose connection, rodent or pest interference, stray whatever, stuff does happen.
I have never had an oversized wire where I wished I had put something smaller in. I have any number of times gone back and rewired wishing the original electrician had used a larger gauge.
https://www.icmag.com/modules/Tutorials/ElectricalSafety/1655.htm
Short version - if he used 8 gauge wire on the original install, I would want to eventually change it out for #6 anyhow.
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So the gauge of the wire will also determine the amps available for the unit? We just had ours installed....totally enjoying but did notice that the heater is not running with both pumps. We are calling the electrician tomorrow!!!!! We are supposed to have 60 amp and are now questioning what he did.....we'll see tomorrow....
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The 50 to 60 amp matter would be more than wire ga & breaker. The controller would need configured via logic / wiring to either toggle a motor off for a heater on or know the incoming capacity is sufficient for both to run at the same time.
Added later
On pg 15 of the manual:
Table No. 1
POWER SUPPLY OPTIONS AND REQUIREMENTS
Sundance hot tubs are designed to provide optimum performance and flexibility
of use when connected to the maximum electrical service as listed
below. However, they are shipped configured for the most commonly preferred
electrical connection -- 50A, 240V*
If you prefer, your Sundance dealer can perform a minor circuit board modification
to allow the hot tub to accept different electrical service. The operational
considerations of these modifications are listed in the footnotes below.
CAMEO, OPTIMA, MARIN and ALTAMAR MODELS
240V/30A** 240V/50A* 240V/60A***
Voltage 240 volts 240 volts 240 volts
Current Draw 24 amps 40 amps 48 amps
Number of Wires Three Three Three
Circuit Breaker 30A dual pole 50A dual pole 60A dual pole
* In 50A configuration, the heater will not operate while both pumps are
operating at high speed. Note: pump 2 runs only in high speed.
** In 30A configuration, the heater will not operate while either pump is
running in high speed or if the air blower is running. Note: pump 2 runs
only in high speed.
*** In 60A configuration, the heater will operate at the same time as the
high speed of both pumps and the air blower. Note: Not applicable for
1-pump Capri models.
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Keep this thought in mind, why does a manufacturer offer multiple configurations? Answer, because every homeowner electrical situation is different.
Understandably, many existing homes may have a limited capacity in their electrical service, thus able to use only what is available, as it is recommended by their electrician. Their only other option is to upgrade the household electric which could cause the situation to become rather expensive.
Secondly, Hot Tubs have been utilizing 50 amp service almost from the beginning of the 70's and 80"s, and is the most commonly utilized configuration.
However, with the advent of more jets, more power, and more options, a 50 amp circuit is challenged, and 60 would be better.
Knowing this at the front end gives the consumer time to consider how they will use the hot Tub. As they learn from the dealer, and/or the electrican after referring to the homeowners manual, the decision to utilize the 60 amp configuration is a choice that will increase the electrical cost of installation marginally. On the other hand, to consider this after the installation can make that decision to utilize the 60 amp configuration a costly matter.
The only thing we are dealing with her is the question in the mind of the consumer, am I better off one way or the other. The majority of answers will favor the 50 amp configuration to be completely acceptable, but given the choice ahead of implementing the decision gives one the freedom of choice, and for some manufacturers an advantage over other Hot Tub choices that do not offer that option.
To debate the situation, is to question full foam, or the use of ozone, everyone is going to have a differing opinion causing conflict in the mind of the consumer.
Do your homework in advance, understand your choices, make your selection, AND GET INTO HOT WATER. You're going to love that decision more than the other questions that conflict the decision making process.
What ever you do, whether you use 30 amp, 50 amp, or 60 amp, chances are, you will never regret the decision of getting the Hot Tub, and you will unlikely ever notice the difference between 50 amp service and 60.
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Vy much enjoying our tub....probably heading out again tonight.....10 degrees out!!!!!!
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Something else we just found out about the sundance cameo....there is a pin that has to be entered to make the unit able to run both pumps and the heater all at once....the dealer tech will be calling later to walk us thru it.....