Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: zroger73 on September 09, 2013, 11:40:10 am
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In 2008, I bought my new spa from East Texas Spa in Longview, Texas. Now that the factory warranty is up and I'm no longer "married" to the dealer, I thought I'd give my brutally honest thoughts. Overall, I can't find much to complain about with either the spa, the dealer, or the salesperson.
July 2008 - Bought new from Chris Ogden at East Texas Spa in Longview, Texas.
Some time in 2009 - Ozone bubbles suddenly got REALLY big and the smell of ozone disappeared. I found the check valve between the ozone generator and ozone injector had snapped in half and it was sucking in air instead of ozone. Chris had a replacement check valve in stock that he gave me at no charge (it was under warranty) and I replaced it myself in a few minutes. The replacement check valve still works fine.
Fall 2011 - Sold house, drained spa, and stored it in a garage.
Spring 2012 - Had new house built, installed spa, found Moto-Massage no longer moved up and down. Chris sent a tech out who replaced one of the two Moto-Massage jet assemblies, which fixed the problem. The diverter valve leaked a bit and needed some new o-rings. All parts replaced under warranty at no charge.
Spring 2013 - When the jets were switched on the motor would sound strained, the jets seemed to surge, the contactor chattered, and the circuit breaker would trip after a few seconds. This was an intermittent problem. Chris sent a tech out who couldn't duplicate the problem at the time. I measured the motor amperage myself and found it was higher than the rating stamped on the motor, but the tech called the factory and was told it was within acceptable limits. I deal with electric motors every day at my job and this wouldn't fly with us. However, the problem seemed to "fix itself" and has not returned...so far. Black "grease balls" had been appearing in the water. They would smear on the shell and were difficult to remove. The tech found the black sealant in the water feature valve was disintegrating and was getting dumped into the spa through the water feature. He replaced and cleaned the valve assembly. The problem went away.
Here is my religious maintenance routine:
Every 4 months like clockwork
Drain, refill through Hot Spring pre-filter, soak filters in Hot Spring filter cleaner/degreaser, soak pillows in bleach water to remove black spots, clean scum from water line using filter cleaner, rinse entire spa with water, use Mr. Clean Magic Eraser to remove any stubborn marks or stains, use mild soapy water to clean cover then apply either Hot Spring Cover Shield or 303 Aerospace Protectant, install new Nature2 cartridge.
Repairs:
Ozone check valve
Diverter valve
Water feature valve
Moto-Massage jet
Overall condition:
The spa shell has some minor crazing visible from certain angles, but no cracks or leaks. It looks like sun damage, but the spa is ALWAYS covered when not in use and is used only at night.
The clear plastic LCD display cover is crazed making it difficult to read unless it's dark. The control head face plate needs to be replaced.
The spa cover was essentially "like new" until right at the 5-year mark. The vinyl is now flaking off of seams and edges and it appears to be thinning/hardening overall. I've increased the frequency and quantity of protectant used in an attempt to get another 2 or 3 years until it looks bad enough to justify replacement. Price and research will determine if I'll buy an OEM cover from East Texas Spa or look into Doc's or some other brand of cover. The original Tri-X filters are still in excellent condition and show absolutely no signs of needing replacement anytime soon.
Environment and usage:
Aside from several months of storage in a garage, the spa has lived on an uncovered, concrete patio in Northeast Texas. During the first 2-3 years, it got used for several hours multiple days per week with anywhere from 1-6 users. The last year or two, it gets used for several hours about once per week by 2-3 users at a time on average. (It's not that I don't enjoy the spa - I just haven't had as much free time lately.) I usually keep the water at 98°F - sometimes 100-102°F if guests prefer. I shock once per week with 3 teaspoons of dicholor. I'll add 1 teaspoon per person after each use. Users are "clean" (minimal lotion and other products). Clothing (containing residual detergents) is rarely used in the spa.
Overall, I'm pleased and have no regrets with the purchase except that I might would have went up a size or two. I still recommend Hot Spring as a brand and East Texas Spa as a dealer. If I were buying again, I would strongly consider the Hot Spring brand from East Texas Spa. I chose to stick with the tried-and-proven chlorine-only method from the beginning and it has never let me down. I always have crystal clear water and nobody has ever caught anything from the spa. I'm sure I'll offend some of the dealers here, but I'd suggest staying away from those questionable "maintenance in a bottle" products and stick with what has worked for decades. Chlorine is cheap, effective, and simple. There are no expensive, brightly-colored, fancy-smelling products to buy and no expensive cells or modules that require eventual replacement. Speaking of, my ozone generator still works after 5 years and I still replace the silver cartridge, though I question the actual benefit from those devices.
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That makes me feel good about my new Envoy spa! Thanks for posting. I take it that you really like the Nature 2. I'm looking into going that route when I change the water next (I just changed it about two weeks ago, so I still have a little time to think about it). I have sensative skin around the ankles and wondering if it might be the Bromine causing it. Do you had anything beside adjusting the PH and TA?
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For the first three years, I used the my city's treated surface water from a local river. Each refill required some alkalinity increaser, a bottle of calcium increaser, and an initial shock with chlorine (dichlor). The last several weeks of each 4-month fill begin to require a bit more alkalinity increaser at the TA starts to fall. I've never had to use pH up or down and never put anything else in my water besides calcium+, alkalinity+, and chlorine. My new home is in a city that uses groundwater from deep wells. The water is filtered using reverse osmosis then disinfected with chlorine. The same water care routine has applied with the new water supply.
To clarify something about the Nature2: It is it marketed to reduce the amount of chlorine required by allowing you to use MPS as an oxidizer instead of chlorine. You still have to sanitize with chlorine, though, since MPS is not a sanitizer. This is another reason I stock to a chlorine-only routine since chlorine is both an oxidizer and a sanitizer. The fewer different chemicals I have to purchase and deal with, the better. Honestly, I think the Nature2 cartridge and ozone are overrated and overpriced, but I won't argue that they DO provide at least a very small amount of supplemental sanitizing and oxidizing capability for those times you slightly neglect the chlorine level. I have been buying the Nature2 cartridge out of laziness and habit - NOT because I feel that it is necessary.
Unless a person has some type of known allergy to chlorine (very rare), I personally do not recommend using any other system than plain old chlorine. I've had dozens of guests in my hot tub and none have ever complained of any reaction.
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Thanks, zroger! After reading that, it seems to be no easier to maintain than the bromine system I'm using now. I still might try the basic chlorine spoonful/or two after each usage and just keeping the water balanced along with my ozonator. That seems to be the easiest.
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Chris Ogden the Terminator. Good job Term.
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:) I am very glad to hear, that you approve of your sovereign. I bought my 2013 Sovereign, in April. I am loving every aspect of this tub. Its easy to maintain and big enough for me and the wife. I live in upstate NY, but today its in the 90's , I was so hoping for a cooler day. I have found the Hot Springs brand, dealers and company to be a reptutable company to do business with. I will write my 5 year review, once my warranty expires. Time will tell.
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Just a little update since a few weeks ago. I performed my 4-month water change this weekend. While spinning one of the Tri-X filters around by hand to rinse it after a soak in filter cleaner, my finger went through the filter media! Uh oh. I figured the filters wouldn't last forever, but I wasn't quite sure how they would fail. Apparently, the plastic/ceramic media becomes brittle over the years and eventually begins to crack/crumble. Basically, my hot tub was in use for 3 years, in storage for 1 year, and in use for another year. Depending on your perspective, my original Tri-X filters lasted either 4 or 5 years. Considering the hot tub's use and the meticulous care I take out of it, I had expected/hoped for a little longer.
In addition to the initial cost of the hot tub, here are my ongoing costs:
Electricity $15.00 per month (rough estimate)
Cover $500 every 5 years (still works fine, but the vinyl is flaking off and the thread is disintegrating - purely cosmetic at this point)
Filters $200 every 5 years
Chemicals $50 every 4 months (conservative estimate)
Not counting repairs such as a heater, motor, ozonator, control board, etc. which cost several hundred dollars each minimum (not including labor if I install myself), my monthly real-world operating costs average about $43 per month or about $520 per year. If the useful life of the hot tub is 15 years (being very optimistic here) the total ownership cost including the price of the hot tub itself will have been about $90 per month or $15,800.
Oh, yeah... Be very careful with Hot Spring Filter Cleaner! After spraying my filters down, I sat them on my concrete patio. An hour later, it dissolved the top layer of concrete exposing the rougher, non-textured surface underneath. What IS this stuff? No wonder it makes my skin sting! :D
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Since my last post, the Moto-Massage jet failed for a second time. This time it was the rubber air line. I had to drive about 60 miles to pick up a new one, but $25 and 1.5 hours later it was working again.
Unfortunately, the jet pump motor problem has resurfaced. Intermittently, the motor starts to make an unusual noise as if there is a chunk of metal being thrown around inside then trips the circuit breaker after a few seconds. The problem started several months before the 5-year warranty was up. At the time, neither the tech nor myself could reproduce the issue. Now, it's back 8 months after warranty. Hopefully, Hot Spring will honor the warranty since I have documentation the problem started before the warranty was up. I emailed my dealer and am awaiting a response. I really want to love my hot tub, but this thing is showing signs of turning into a money pit right as the warranty expires. The frustrating part is that I paid thousands of dollars more for a Hot Spring in hopes of avoiding these types of problems. A jet pump motor should last more than 4-5 years on a $9,000 spa with less than 750 hours of use. If this was one of those $3,000 "tent sale" brands, I could understand. We'll see if they come through.
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I had a reply earlier about a guy purchasing a used tub. I simply cancelled and moved on but stories like this make me cringe for those without warranties. If you can afford to pay 4k for a spa, you can pay another 2k-3k for the warranty too. I'd NEVER pay THAT much money without a warranty. There are reasons why Car manufacturers, Housing, furniture, etc all have them. When a company has to provide a warranty, they have to stand behind their product. If someone wants to sell you something and you don't have a warranty, they MUST have issues with the product. I don't buy a warranty with anything under 500 dollars because I'm willing to take the risk but over 500? Its not likely that I'll buy something without the warranty. That being said, congrats zroger, your one of the smart ones who, even though getting one of THE top brands, still was smart enough to follow through and get the insurance.
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That being said, congrats zroger, your one of the smart ones who, even though getting one of THE top brands, still was smart enough to follow through and get the insurance.
As much as I'd like to agree with your comment about me being one of the smart ones, I must tell you that Hot Spring's standard warranty is 5 years. I was never aware of or offered an extended warranty. Even if I was, I probably wouldn't have taken it unless it was dirt cheap. I spent many years working in places that sold extended warranties and I know that their primary purpose is to make extra money for the manufacturer/dealer, not to benefit the majority of customers.
I paid 2-3 times more for a Hot Spring thinking that I'd get more than 4-5 years of service before it started costing me $500 here and $500 there - warranty or not. If I wanted a hot tub that would last a few years before it started breaking down, then I'd have bought one out of the back of an 18-wheeler and just it until it broke then threw it away. :)
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I don't think this is right either. This is considered one of the BEST brands around. A pump should last 10 years or more. Have you talked to Chris? Are they going to try and help? How was your water balance? Did the seal puke?
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disintigrating o-rings, black "grease" balls out of the jets, and multiple O-Ring failures? multiple failures on the rubber parts of the moto? all within a 3-4 years? do you test and balance your water at all?
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disintigrating o-rings, black "grease" balls out of the jets, and multiple O-Ring failures? multiple failures on the rubber parts of the moto? all within a 3-4 years? do you test and balance your water at all?
RE-LIG-IOUS-LY using only genuine Hot Spring test strips and chemicals from my local Hot Spring dealer. I knew nothing about spas or pools before I bought this one, so I figured following the manual written by the manufacturer might be the best place to start, which is what I've done. Now... I won't deny that there are more accurate ways to test water than by using the Hot Spring test strips, but I figure they must be "good enough" since Hot Spring is selling and recommending them - there is some liability on their part and a reputation to uphold if they sold inadequate test strips that would result in warranty claims and a short life span of their tubs.
In short, my water is balanced a minimum of once per week using Hot Spring test strips. My TA, pH, and calcium always hold steady after an initial adjustment. Chlorine is all I normally have to add. The last few weeks of a 4-month water change will sometimes require a bit of Alk+ to keep the TA and pH up. I never have foam, scum, algae, or cloudiness. My ozone works (based on the sight of bubbles, the smell of ozone, and the buzz of the generator). I always replace the "silver cartridge" (even though I am not convinced it actually does much) at each 4-month water change.
I have been described as an "OCD clean freak". I'm an electrical/mechanical engineer by profession, so I tend to lean toward the logical, methodical, and analytic side of things. Yes, I test and balance my water. Perhaps I should leave the cover off, let it fill with leaves, and wait until barnacles begin growing on the filters like some people? I tend to be more proactive than reactive - I prefer to change a part before it completely fails to reduce the inconvenience and risk of causing even more damage.
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zroger, you've spent thousands of dollars on your investment. Why not buy an excellent water testing kit for $50 to make sure everything is up to par. I tested the test strips vs. the test kit myself recently. The test strips are just too vague to get an accurate reading. If you're using chlorine, get the Taylor K2006 kit, if you're using bromine, get the K2106 kit. amazon is where I bought mine. They are not hard to use, just follow the directions. The pH test is a matter of filling the tube, and adding 5 drops of solution, and then reading the result. If that's too much trouble, you shouldn't own a hot tub, imho.
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How long was your tub down between moves. If it was very long this can cause o-rings and seals to shrink. As for the motor i don't sell hot springs but i work on a lot of them. The primary motors don't fail very often. I have worked on hot springs that are 20 years old and still have the same primary motors. With that said no matter the brand some tubs run for ever and some have things go wrong but buying a quality product usually gives you less headaches. As for your warranty issue your probably on your own. A tech cant fix it if its not broke. JM2C.
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Btm line is it's a hot tub, doesn't matter what brand it is, and it doesn't matter how much you spent on it, things will and can fail. Ironically it's seems to always happen just after the warranty has expired. This usually makes for the more pissed off customer. Sorry your having troubles with it, and if they do cover it under warranty cudo's to them. That being said it is out of warranty, and they really don't have to, but then knowing it has been on-going it might make a difference..
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It was in storage for 8 months inside a garage that stayed closed most of the time. Until proven otherwise, I have faith in my dealer. They've been good to me and I've "rewarded" them by buying all of my chemicals, filters, accessories, and repair parts from them - even though I could save a few dollars buy buying online. We're waiting on a response from Hot Spring at the moment. I understand the limitations of a warranty and realize nothing lasts forever. Given this particular problem started before the warranty was up, I will rightly be upset if they don't stand behind the pump motor.
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If you can afford to pay 4k for a spa, you can pay another 2k-3k for the warranty too.
Why not keep the 2 to 3 K and put it into an emergency / Spa maintenance account?
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Btm line is it's a hot tub, doesn't matter what brand it is, and it doesn't matter how much you spent on it, things will and can fail. Ironically it's seems to always happen just after the warranty has expired. This usually makes for the more pissed off customer. Sorry your having troubles with it, and if they do cover it under warranty cudo's to them. That being said it is out of warranty, and they really don't have to, but then knowing it has been on-going it might make a difference..
Yeah - I know things break. I deal with warranties and broken things all day long at work. Kudos to my dealer and/or Watkins, however - I was just told a new jet pump is on the way. That's what great customer service is all about! I didn't complain about any warranty repairs and didn't complain when I had to buy new parts to fix things that happened after the warranty. Had the pump began to fail after the warranty ended I would have just bought another $475 pump, grumbled and bloodied up a knuckle or two replacing it, and moved on. Anyway, here's to hoping for a good closure to this particular problem. :)
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Great news! Are they going to install it for you, as well?
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Beggers can't be choosers, right? I am able to install it myself, but I would expect Watkins to allow the dealer labor along with the pump/motor. If not, it wouldn't be the first time my expectations have not been met, though. :) I hope to keep the old motor for a teardown analysis and possible repair, but Watkins might want it back for the same reason. We'll see.
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Piece of cake to put that motor in. Do the dealer a solid and volunteer. Familiarize yourself with your now out of warranty tub.
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Piece of cake to put that motor in. Do the dealer a solid and volunteer. Familiarize yourself with your now out of warranty tub.
Good idea, Tman.
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Glad you got taken care of! Maybe papa hot springs was looking in on this one, being it was posted here. 8)
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After a month's delay, the pump finally arrived and a tech was sent out to replace it. He dumped all 350 gallons of water on my grass and managed to scratch and scuff much of the shell's perimeter and filter lid. He also arrived an hour and 15 minutes too early and somehow entered my back yard through a gate with no exterior latch. This was all after being told the reason the pump was delayed was because the carrier made multiple attempts to delivery the pump outside of business hours and it kept getting returned to Watkins. I now have a new pump that works. Unfortunately, the tech used careless procedures and the communication wasn't good. My local dealer comped some supplies for the inconvenience. I managed to "sand" most of the scuffs and scratches out of the shell using a Magic Eraser, although my arms felt like jelly after that.
Watkins: Thanks for standing behind your product even though it was 9 months out of warranty.
Sherrill: Work on those communication skills and at least pretend you care.
Albert: Please be more considerate where you dump water and be careful not to damage the spa. I'm more observant than your average consumer.
Chris: Thanks for doing your best to make it right and keep my business.
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Couple things. The delay in getting the pump sounds like BS. You knew they were coming but didn't drain the spa, so guessing he cracked a union to dump the water or have to hang around 3 hours for it to drain?
And last, how does the tech scratch the filter lid and shell when all he had to do was open the front and replace the pump.
Good news is it's fixed so be happy..
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I have the same feeling about the delay - my instinct tells me it was never ordered. I imagine this pump is always in stock and can be had by the dealer the next business day.
Correct - I knew they were coming, but pre-draining the spa for the convenience of the installer never occurred to me. I guess I subconsciously assumed they had a trick to replace it without draining. Haha!
I have NO idea how all the scratches got in the shell/lid. The cover is red-brown and so were the scratches. It looked like the cover was turned upside down and repeatedly dragged over the top of the shell. Or, perhaps he dragged dirty water hoses around the edge. Unfortunately, I wasn't there to witness or prevent it.
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Tests kits are on sale at Leslies pools...15% for Memorial weekend...