Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: anxious2tub on May 20, 2004, 03:51:57 am
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Hello all I am hoping someone out there can help me, I am new to the hot tubbing environment and anxious to try it out.... here is my problem I bought a 1997 Hot Springs model Sovereign hot tub for a very good price or so I thought, I bought it knowing it has a problem with the heater ( I was told it needs a new one for about 250.00 ) and it has 2 leaks ... it looks like it is leaking from the light lens and from one of the jets on the opposite side. I siliconed the lens cover and around the jet but it still leaks both places. I was told it is packed in foam and the best way to fix this is fill it up and put blue food coloring in it, let it leak out and dry and then tip it up and see where the leak is coming from and chip away at it. How hard is it to do this, I am a pretty handy person, the hot tub itself is in excellent condition any help on this would be appreciated. I live in the Chicagoland area. Thank You in advance for any help you all may give me.
Joe
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Why tip it on it's side if you know where it's leaking take that side panel off and dig the foam out to the leak.
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Why I would never touch a full foam spa.
Sorry to hear about your leaks. My old CalSpa rotted away from a neglected leak.
Follow the light people, it's thermopane.
Don't let these big companies fool you with their dinasaour, money-saving technology.
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Any time a full foam spa has a leak this backs your claim that Thermopane is the way to go? BTW, since when is building a spa with full foam a money saving route? That is simply not true as full foaming simply costs more when you factor in the cost of the foam as well as the floor space it takes to build it, the operators needed to foam the spas, the equipment to do so and other overhead costs.
If you prefer Thermopane then stick with what you prefer and quite frankly I have no issue with as it can work if built properly (this is where I do not take the leap of faith). Those of us who think full foam is a better route (for reasons such as: much less apt to leak, more structurally sound over time, insulation value don't lessen with airs leaks, equipment not in a hot box, etc.) will keep thinking our way.
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Which cost more, the additioanl expense of fixing a leak in a full foam spa compare to "thermopane", or the added expense of heating a "thermopane" style insulated spa compared to full foam?
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And more importantly, don't let these self proclaimed Spa techs and doctors fool you too when they are nothing more than shills for the big companies.
They will make claims about thermopanes faults which are totally unfounded.
My electric bill was $20 for the Coleman (thermopane)spa in my first month of ownership. That included the initial heatup of a newly filled spa.
More prone to leak? Show the evidence. That's all I ask. I had the opportunity to look inside my spa yesterday and observe the piping. I see no reason why this piping needs the full foam support to prevent it from leaking in the future. Also, I was amazed by how warm it was inside.
They'll also tell you that these thermopanes are noiser with rattling and cavitation noises. Bull-ony. My spa was quieter than any of ther other ones I looked at in my hunting, (Hotspring, Sundance, Marquis and Calspa).
Your claims are just fodder to keep people lining up at Watkins' front door. You really are unreal Spatech.
Prediction: 2 years from now, these big guys (who already know the real deal), will get on board with technology and the full foam design will be dumped in the bin where it belongs.
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Rick,
You are on crack. Hotspring Spas are the quietest things on the planet. Trust me on that one.
Chris H
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That is simply not true. I haven't touched crack in over 5 years. :)
I never said Hotsprings wasn't quiet, I just said my Coleman was quieter. Have you gone to a Coleman dealer in your life? Do so and listen.
Now it does get a bit loud when I turn on the waterfalls on the pump's highsetting, but that's from the water crashing not from a noisy pump.
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Used to deal with them. They leaked.
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Back to the question:
If the light lens is leaking, you can replace it. PN 71832 is a white upgrade kit that replaces your old style lens with the same lens now found in new HotSpring tubs.
Us Devcon to glue it in. Simply break out the old one - being careful not to put too much force into it - and sand the old glue off.
As to the jet: it may very well be easier to dig it out if you prop the spa up on it's side - digging foam is a lot of work the first time you do it - but it's not really that bad. I use a flat pry bar with rounded off corners, and a drywall saw to cut out large chunks when I know there is no plumbing. Once it's exposed, you simply cut it out and take it to your dealer to get replacement parts for the jet iteself - you just need the part that is broken - put the 'guts' from the old jet into the new jet body or whatever. Most of the plumbing is standard PVC stuff.
And finally, the heater: Part #72797 Heater, Tri-Bend 6KW is the standard replacement for all 97 to current tubs. It is both 110 and 220 volt compatible, and works well. Comes with a one year warranty.
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And more importantly, don't let these self proclaimed Spa techs and doctors fool you too when they are nothing more than shills for the big companies.
I find this funny, considering SpaTech doesn't sell spas. Dr. Spa sells wooden tubs. Hmmm, don't think they are full foam. But, I guess you guys are just shills! LOL! ;)
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No, spatech fixes spas. He must not have too many to fix though as his reply to any thread comes minutes after someone posts anything in these forums. Of course I understand the flack I will receive by posting such heresy on a Watkins owned message board.
Ask him how many thermopane leaks he's fixed in the last year.
Ask him why he has a short list (all full foam, mostly Watkins) of brands for those asking what to buy?
Listen, I'm sorry if I am picking on people. What I see in the big picture of things is the truth and that is the future is here and it is thermopane, but the guys who have been making and servicing the older technology are reluctant to change. It's that simple.
Like I said, mark your calendars, I predict it will take a couple of more years, but in that time you will see most full foam manufacturers changing their tune.
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In reply to Chas, who used to sell Colemans and they leaked:
I understand that Colemans had problems in the past. But I believe they (MAXX) are making a much better product now. I talked to many Coleman dealers and they all stated this. Many of these dealers also sold another brand and when questioned on which was the better built spa, they ALL said the same thing, the Coleman. And I'm talking about dealers that also had Master, Caldera, and D1.
What years were you selling Colemans?
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I said that not Chas. In the 90's.
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oh boy.................here we go again with another uninformed poster...............let's set the record straight here. I don't personally know Spa Tech tuo....But I'm willing to say it's a safe bet he has a lot more experience with spas and the industry for that matter then rick does, and many of the people who choose to use this and other forums on the net. That being said I'm willing to say it's a safe bet that he's worked on many of the brands of spas mentioned on theis board and many that aren't frequently mentioned on this board as well. With all the years spent working on spas from all manufactures and brands...........his opinions are from educated experience, not from what some factory trained salesperson told you about your coleman spa and the "evils" of full foam insulation. I bet your salesperson even asked you why you would consider buying a spa from another company when Coleman makes the best insulated coolers on the market, so the same nmust be true of "coleman" spas...........even though they are made by MAAX spas in canada. MAAX spas makes a very good, reliable product. We hardly ever have to make any service calls on them. We used to sell infiniti (now called Elite spas) spas by MAAX the last two years. They use the "revolutionary" thermopane insulation.............I gotta be honest, our customers have told us they're infiniti spas cost them around 35-40$ a month to operate here in new york state. Our D-1 Spa owners (which are full foam) have told us their average cost of running their spa is around 25$ a month. We even have one customer who lives about 2 hrs north of us where it routinely gets down to 20-30 BELOW zero in the winter for weeks at a time........that with using his spa twice everyday, the most it has EVER cost him a month has been 40$...............hmmmmm. Just some thoughts. The spa industry is definitly a "get what you pay for" industry. You'll know when you've gotten a lemon, or when you've bought from a bad dealer who doesn't take care of his/her customers. I hear it everyday from customers who have bought their spa from obne of our competitors. They can't get service for their spa, or their spas dealer doesn't return their call, or won't help them with their problems. Spa tech tuo has always given sound unbiased information and advice to people based on his years of experience. And lets face it, it's the american way to cry afoul when your team and/or product isn't the best. that's why everyone not from NY HATES the yankees, b/c they always win or are at the top of the division year after year. Or why everyone that didn't live in Dallas in the early 90's hated the cowboys............and that's probably why many posters on these boards has a distaste for hot spring spas. Hey, even I'm not too proud to say they make one of the best spas on the market today. They didn't become the world's top seller of portable spas by making a bad, unreliable product!!!! Hell the company I work for has been selling Dimension One spas for almost 20 yrs now!!!!! And yes, I'm apt and prone to pitching the benefits of this spa maker when i post on here, but I also recomend other brands of spas too, b/c the truth of the matter is that there is a "big 6" or BIG 3 if you will of spa makers. Because those 6 manufacturers have been aroundm the longest, and year after year they sell the most spas......why???? BECAUSE they make great, reliable products sold by reputable, reliable dealers. Ok, my rant is over.
Jason,
Store manager for a D-1 and caldera spas dealer
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oh boy.................here we go again with another uninformed poster................ that's why everyone not from NY HATES the yankees, b/c they always win or are at the top of the division year after year.
Jason,
Store manager for a D-1 and caldera spas dealer
Well said but you can't stop some people from researching spas for a few weeks and then proclaiming they know everything and bought the "BEST" spa known to mankind. I'm thinking of buying a small airplane. I think I'll research on-line and then proclaim that I know everything and I'll expose all the plane makers who are producing substandard aircrafts. Of course the one I buy will be the best in all categories based on my sample of 1. Personally I'm in favor of the Thermoplane design and think all other designs are corrupt.
BTW, I must admit that I spent the first 23 years of my life in NY and still think of it as home yet there is no team in all of sports (& I'm a sports nut) that I hate more than the Yankees (no I'm not a Mets fan either, Orioles fan since 1970).
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The O's have a good team this year, the AL east is gonna be a barn burner.........I'd love for my Yankees to win it all.....but if the O's won the division and the yanks got the wild card I'd be happy. Hell I'll be happy as long as the red sox don't win the division/make the playoffs!!!
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"I siliconed the lens cover and around the jet but it still leaks both places. " Anxious2tub
(Makes cross with fingers and hisses. :o) SILLY-Cone is the great satan- A very big taboo with me- and should be for all service techs. To properly repair this you will need Devcon and an application kit-- and possibly a new light lens. Just as Chas has recommended.
"Don't let these big companies fool you with their dinasaour (SIC), money-saving technology." Rick
Insulation is a money saving technology- It keeps you from heating up the environment with your precious, hard earned cash and contributing to the alleged Global Warming all the Earth-Muffins are sniveling about.
"And more importantly, don't let these self proclaimed Spa techs and doctors fool you too when they are nothing more than shills for the big companies." Rick
Shills derive some profit for endorsing a product or con under dubious pretences- I suspect that you, Rick are far closer to being a 'shill' than any of the regulars here... I am not self-proclaimed-- I am self-EMPLOYED.
"No, spatech fixes spas. He must not have too many to fix though as his reply to any thread comes minutes after someone posts anything in these forums. Of course I understand the flack I will receive by posting such heresy on a Watkins owned message board. " Rick
Maybe we should look up just how many posts Ive made in total- Hmmm nope, I've posted less responses here than spas I've fixed year to date. And if you look in the reviews section- they arent all HotSpring spas. While they are a sponsor here, they do not own nor control the content of the board.
"Ask him how many thermopane leaks he's fixed in the last year." Rick
Fixed a thermopane leak last week-- but I cant recall just when the last foam dig I did was...Let me check my invoices... ::)
"Ask him why he has a short list (all full foam, mostly Watkins) of brands for those asking what to buy?" Rick
I recommend that consumers seek out nationally recognized products, such as Sundance, HotSpring, Dimension One, Marquis, and up and comers Freeflow, Tuff Spas, and Bullfrog- I make my best efforts not to foist my bias on anyone. Is there any evidence of me railroading shoppers here? Any at all?
"Listen, I'm sorry if I am picking on people." Rick
No, youre not- that's exactly why youre here...
"I predict it will take a couple of more years, but in that time you will see most full foam manufacturers changing their tune." Rick
I wouldnt hold my breath. You and only one other spa croney holds this opinion. It seems to me that the other regulars here agree that both construction techinques have both pros and cons, that neither has such an advantage over the other that a mass migration of the industry is emminant... BTW how are things in Broomfield?
"I find this funny, considering SpaTech doesn't sell spas." Lori
Lori, very soon.... very, very soon this wont be true. ;D
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In reply to Chas, who used to sell Colemans and they leaked:
I understand that Colemans had problems in the past. But I believe they (MAXX) are making a much better product now. I talked to many Coleman dealers and they all stated this. Many of these dealers also sold another brand and when questioned on which was the better built spa, they ALL said the same thing, the Coleman. And I'm talking about dealers that also had Master, Caldera, and D1.
What years were you selling Colemans?
Ironically, I did sell Coleman spas, in the late eighties. I only had one or two leakers, one was from a cracked skimmer housing, and the other was a pump shaft seal, I think. Well, the second one was from the equipment area anyway.
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When I started in the industry repairing spas, I worked exclusively on thermo-pane and no insulation spas. I did this for approx 2 years. After that time I started working on all brands of spas with all types of insullation.
I was AMAZED at the difference in the number of plumbing leaks between fully foamed spas and the others. Many, many more leaks in thermo-pane spas.
That being said, as a service tech I would rather fix a thermo pane leak than a full foam leak. Why, you might ask. Because it is alot less messy. And since there is not a big time difference in the repair, I do not make any more money doing it.
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"I siliconed the lens cover and around the jet but it still leaks both places. " Anxious2tub
(Makes cross with fingers and hisses. :o) SILLY-Cone is the great satan- A very big taboo with me- and should be for all service techs. To properly repair this you will need Devcon and an application kit-- and possibly a new light lens. Just as Chas has recommended.
"Don't let these big companies fool you with their dinasaour (SIC), money-saving technology." Rick
Insulation is a money saving technology- It keeps you from heating up the environment with your precious, hard earned cash and contributing to the alleged Global Warming all the Earth-Muffins are sniveling about.
"And more importantly, don't let these self proclaimed Spa techs and doctors fool you too when they are nothing more than shills for the big companies." Rick
Shills derive some profit for endorsing a product or con under dubious pretences- I suspect that you, Rick are far closer to being a 'shill' than any of the regulars here... I am not self-proclaimed-- I am self-EMPLOYED.
"No, spatech fixes spas. He must not have too many to fix though as his reply to any thread comes minutes after someone posts anything in these forums. Of course I understand the flack I will receive by posting such heresy on a Watkins owned message board. " Rick
Maybe we should look up just how many posts Ive made in total- Hmmm nope, I've posted less responses here than spas I've fixed year to date. And if you look in the reviews section- they arent all HotSpring spas. While they are a sponsor here, they do not own nor control the content of the board.
"Ask him how many thermopane leaks he's fixed in the last year." Rick
Fixed a thermopane leak last week-- but I cant recall just when the last foam dig I did was...Let me check my invoices... ::)
"Ask him why he has a short list (all full foam, mostly Watkins) of brands for those asking what to buy?" Rick
I recommend that consumers seek out nationally recognized products, such as Sundance, HotSpring, Dimension One, Marquis, and up and comers Freeflow, Tuff Spas, and Bullfrog- I make my best efforts not to foist my bias on anyone. Is there any evidence of me railroading shoppers here? Any at all?
"Listen, I'm sorry if I am picking on people." Rick
No, youre not- that's exactly why youre here...
"I predict it will take a couple of more years, but in that time you will see most full foam manufacturers changing their tune." Rick
I wouldnt hold my breath. You and only one other spa croney holds this opinion. It seems to me that the other regulars here agree that both construction techinques have both pros and cons, that neither has such an advantage over the other that a mass migration of the industry is emminant... BTW how are things in Broomfield?
"I find this funny, considering SpaTech doesn't sell spas." Lori
Lori, very soon.... very, very soon this wont be true. ;D
Great reply Spa Tech
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I was AMAZED at the difference in the number of plumbing leaks between fully foamed spas and the others. Many, many more leaks in thermo-pane spas.
That being said, as a service tech I would rather fix a thermo pane leak than a full foam leak. Why, you might ask. Because it is alot less messy. And since there is not a big time difference in the repair, I do not make any more money doing it.
Are you saying that the cost to the consumer to have a leak repaired in a full foam spa is about the same as a thermo pane? Assuming that the leaks affect similar components, of course.
Brewman
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You cannot compare Coleman to Hotspring. Coleman is for people who want a cheap spa. Hotspring is the choice for those in the know and who want real quality.
It is obvious that Rick is in the former group and is so upset because he wants to be in the latter group.
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I repair all leakers and there is not a cost difference in fixing a full foam or not full foamed. Time is money and time is about the same.
Non-full foam spas do tend to leak more the full foam spas.
I would never own a Thermopane type spa!!!!
Gary
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Hello all, Gerrym, Coleman makes a damn good product, just because you own a Hot Springs doesn't make you an expert. By chaz' admission he had two coleman leakers. One at the shaft seal which can and will happen to your spa regardless of brand sooner or later. The other from a cracked filter housing, which if in a fully foamed spa becomes much more laborious to repair. None-the-less, neither leak was a plumbing leak. In response to Poolboy34, at 34 you should be calling your self pool MAN, but that's not the point. I have about 185 customers that have the Jacuzzi Whirlpool Bath spas that are all thermopane style insulation, as is mine. Mind you I don't poll my customers to find out how much it's costing them to use their spas. However, my spa of 375 gallons UP ON my deck for the last 4 years with the fridgid winter wind blasting over under and all arround has never cost more to operate than 27 bucks beyond previous years bills. Lori, I have to admit that I find it odd that Doc would stump for full foam, when the only thing insulating a wooden tub is the wood. Admitedly I dont know much about the construction of them, but it seem to be wood staves and metal bands, no insulating layer at all. Doc, as far as all my research tells me thermopane spas and full foam spas operate withing a few cents of one another so the cost to operate is negligable, where the cost of repair is vastly different. Fact is though, spas shouldn't be sold on weather they are going to leak or not. Customers should keep in mind, at some point YOUR SPA WILL LEAK. Full foam or not, plumbing or equipment area, sooner or later it's going to happen. Find the spa and dealer you like and buy it.
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I never said Hotsprings wasn't quiet, I just said my Coleman was quieter. Have you gone to a Coleman dealer in your life? Do so and listen.
Now it does get a bit loud when I turn on the waterfalls on the pump's highsetting, but that's from the water crashing not from a noisy pump.
Perhaps the testing that Cajun Mike will be doing with his decibel meter will reveal something about this noise. Or not. Time will tell.
About the full foam or thermopane debate :P Like anything else, I am always one to defer to the wisdom that others have aquired through something called EXPERIENCE. I am not all that surprised at your revelations Rboehme and others about the frequency of leaks on full vs thermopane, but a little about the cost factor which is based on time. I guess that that is based on the fact that through experience you can judge where a leak will be coming from and can therefore reach it more quickly.
BTW, I have had the opportunity in the past to dig out full foam. Not a spa but a house. I agree it is messy, but it is very easy to dig out. Once you know out to do it you can minimize the damage (chunks being pulled out) by making nice incisions.
I asked a dealer of a thermopane product why he thought that his were better. (He did use this as a benefit pitch) He responded by saying that should a leak be known it would be easy to fix. So I activated the pumps on and off a number of times, which was then picked up by my kids as we talked, and brought to his attention the vibrations that the pipes were being put under each time the pumps were being turned on and off. They literally were moving each time by at least one inch. (caused by the kick of the pumps) Nedless to say that can and does lead to leaks. Which is being confirmed by the service techs here.
Hey gotta call it like you see it. ;D
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Gerrym,I resent that statement!!! Who are you ? What, if any experience do you bring to the table to be able to make such strong statements against coleman spas!!!!
I respect the opinions of the regulars on this forum they are professional and fair with their advise.
Sure everyone who sells a particular brand is going to think that spa is the best. But do you see Steve or Chas bashing other brands the way you just did!!
I think we need to get back to anious2tub's thread and get him some help so he can enjoy his spa. This got way off track!!!
I have to go and take a chill pill now.
Spahappy
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Perhaps the testing that Cajun Mike will be doing with his decibel meter will reveal something about this noise. Or not. Time will tell.
About the full foam or thermopane debate :P Like anything else, I am always one to defer to the wisdom that others have aquired through something called EXPERIENCE. I am not all that surprised at your revelations Rboehme and others about the frequency of leaks on full vs thermopane, but a little about the cost factor which is based on time. I guess that that is based on the fact that through experience you can judge where a leak will be coming from and can therefore reach it more quickly.
BTW, I have had the opportunity in the past to dig out full foam. Not a spa but a house. I agree it is messy, but it is very easy to dig out. Once you know out to do it you can minimize the damage (chunks being pulled out) by making nice incisions.
I asked the Arctic Spa dealer why he thought that his were better. (He did use this as a benefit pitch) He responded by saying that should a leak be known it would be easy to fix. So I activated the pumps on and off a number of times, which was then picked up by my kids as we talked, and brought to his attention the vibrations that the pipes were being put under each time the pumps were being turned on and off. They literally were moving each time by at least one inch. (caused by the kick of the pumps) Nedless to say that can and does lead to leaks. Which is being confirmed by the service techs here.
Hey gotta call it like you see it. ;D
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In my haste I shoulda not mentioned the dealer. I took it out of the post. :-[
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Again I feel I must dispell the notion of spas leaking more with plumbing is not supported in foam!
Look at a full foam spa, open it up where all the equipment joins the plumbing at the pumps and heater ect. There is nothing supporting that plumbing it takes as much vibration from equipment in that area as a Coleman or any other thermal-pane designed spa.
This is a non issue! Why would Coleman have a 5 year plumbing warranty if they produced leaky spas. Coleman would go broke doing plumbing repairs.
I'm not saying Coleman's leak less than any full foam spa but they cetainly don't leak any more than any full foam spa out there.
Spahappy
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I resent that statement!!! Who are you ? What, if any experience do you bring to the table to be able to make such strong statements against coleman spas!!!!
I respect the opinions of the regulars on this forum they are professional and fair with their advise.
Sure everyone who sells a particular brand is going to think that spa is the best. But do you see Steve or Chas bashing other brands the way you just did!!
I think we need to get back to anious2tub's thread and get him some help so he can enjoy his spa. This got way off track!!!
I have to go and take a chill pill now.
Spahappy
If you respect the opinion of others, why have you just ignored everything they have said about spas that do not have full foam insulation.
You really should try to be more coherent and consistent with your posts.
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In my almost 20 years on fixing spas I fix way more leaking spas that are not fully foamed than not. I am sure there are several reasons for this, weight of the plumbing (equipment is not a fair comparison as there is much less plumbing), overall quality (most lower cost, lower quality spas are not fully foamed [I said most])…
I do agree with the statement that one day your spa will leak, I do not care who made it.
I do disagree with the statement that it is much more labor intensive (hence higher cost) to fix a fully foamed spa.
Just from my experience.
Gary
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FYI.........I'm NOT 34, I recently turned 26!!!!! Sheesh...........I get bashed b/c I chose a name that stands out???? Oh well to each their own. IMO...if the spa looks good and you like it, get it...............b/c there's no point in getting a spa that isn't at the top of your list b/c of a silly thing of it being FF or thermopane!!!!! They are both good ways to insulate a spa, and the cost differences to run a spa between the major manufacturers is very minute at best. Keep in mind you have to take into account how much and often the spa is going to be used. Also warranties are only as good as the dealer who will be obligated to do the warranty work, as well as the manufacturer. Anyways....I'm out.
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If you respect the opinion of others, why have you just ignored everything they have said about spas that do not have full foam insulation.
You really should try to be more coherent and consistent with your posts.
Do me a favor and read my posts. I'm very consistent!!!!!
Spahappy
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Gerrym, go troll somewhere else with your belligerence.
Spahappy stated he respected the opinions of others here. That doesn't necessarily equate to agreeing with them. Look in the mirror before you start accusing others of being incoherent.
We all know that this forum is entrenched with the old guard (full foam). It is sad too, because I'm sure there's alot of searchers who find this website only to get fed this "conservative" slant. It's good that people like Spahappy and Wisoki stand up and present the "liberal" view too.
It's just my opinion, but I think these guys (mostly full foam dealers) are just "circling the wagons" because they know deep down, that the white man (thermopane) is here to stay and is going to eventually kick the redman's (full foam) arse into oblivion. So they run around and shoot their harmless arrows that never hit their targets. (more costly, more leaks, blah blah blah).
How's that for analogies?
Come on gerrym, say something coherent. I'm waiting.
Because you're friggin high if you think your Grandee is a better built spa than my 480.
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DO NOT call me a liberal. Bunch a tree hugging psychopaths destroying the fabric of this great nation.
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Gerrym, go troll somewhere else with your belligerence.
Spahappy stated he respected the opinions of others here. That doesn't necessarily equate to agreeing with them. Look in the mirror before you start accusing others of being incoherent.
Both types of insulation are here to stay. There are a lot of other things to look for to find the tub that is right for you. WET TEST, WET TEST, WET TEST.
If you like the features, the design, the Dealer, and it is comfortable, thats the tub for you.
Spahappy has always been respectful and consistant.
Get a life Gerrym
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Gary, you've fixed spas for 20 years and state that there is no cost difference in fixing a leak in a full foam vs. a thermopane?
You must be a magician or a man with a divining rod. Please qualify your statement.
A thermpane has a leak, you take off the panel, you see the leak right away, you have easy access to the leak and fix it right there.
You have a full foam, you must decipher, (dig) to the root of the leak. How many times have we heard the advice to stand the spa on its side to help investigate the leak? I'm no spa repairman but one doesn't have to be to see the obvious as far as labor goes.
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Gary, you've fixed spas for 20 years and state that there is no cost difference in fixing a leak in a full foam vs. a thermopane?
You must be a magician or a man with a divining rod. Please qualify your statement.
A thermpane has a leak, you take off the panel, you see the leak right away, you have easy access to the leak and fix it right there.
You have a full foam, you must decipher, (dig) to the root of the leak. How many times have we heard the advice to stand the spa on its side to help investigate the leak? I'm no spa repairman but one doesn't have to be to see the obvious as far as labor goes.
You are mistaken. I have also been fixing spas for many years. I can honestly state that the amount of time it takes to fix a full foam spa compared to a thermo pane spa will usually be no more than a half hour. That half hour will be for cleaning up the foam taken out and spraying in new foam.
I can usually find a leak in any spa in less than 30 minutes. The longest it has taken me to find a leak is less than 2 hours and it was a cracked shell in a catalina(thermo pane). The crack was located above a manifold.
If the spa has thermo-pane insulation then you can NOT see the leak just by opening it up. You have to find the wet foam(sprayed on the shell, plumbing. and cabinet wall) and remove it(just like in full foam). you just dont have to remove as much of it.
While I am sure you are an expert in your field. It is obvious you field is NOT fixing spa plumbing leaks.
Robert
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Are you saying that the cost to the consumer to have a leak repaired in a full foam spa is about the same as a thermo pane? Assuming that the leaks affect similar components, of course.
Brewman
YES
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Again I feel I must dispell the notion of spas leaking more with plumbing is not supported in foam!
Look at a full foam spa, open it up where all the equipment joins the plumbing at the pumps and heater ect. There is nothing supporting that plumbing it takes as much vibration from equipment in that area as a Coleman or any other thermal-pane designed spa.
This is a non issue! Why would Coleman have a 5 year plumbing warranty if they produced leaky spas. Coleman would go broke doing plumbing repairs.
I'm not saying Coleman's leak less than any full foam spa but they cetainly don't leak any more than any full foam spa out there.
Spahappy
What you are not thinking of is the fact that 90% of ALL spa leaks are IN the equipment compartment.(because it is not supported and vibrates alot).
This fact should be enough to show you that supporting the plumbing will have a positive affect. There are NOT less "equipment compartment" leaks in a full foam vs a thermo pane spa. BUT there ARE less leaks in the rest of a full foamed spa.
You also did not account for the fact that in a thermo pane spa it is common to see a 6'+ stretch of plumbing with no support. Between the weight and vibrations, that is very hard on the plastic fittings holding it together.
Keep in mind that plumbing leaks are not that big of a problem in any spa.
Robert
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Oh what a lovely friendly forum this is. Rick does not agree with me so he sends me the following e-mail:
rick
Junior Member
Posts: 19
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
(No subject) on: Jun 10th, 2004, 11:54pm
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You're a stupid f**k. Go help the evolution of the human race and go play on the freeway. Turd for brains.
<eom>
Still, I suppose I suppose there are lots of parents out there that allow their children to play on the computer.
Well I am off to do some research but certainly not anywhere near this board as I prefer adult conversation.
G
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Let's keep things in perspective here. We have a post with over 700 views on leaking hot tubs. Does this bode well for our prouct as a whole?
Why do we all focus so much attention on leaks when in reality, it equates to less than 3% (just a figure people... don't bite my head off! ;D ) of spa failures. Leaks were far more common place 15 years ago when we didn't have the technology in plumbing and fittings as we do now. This industry has changed and improved dramatically and yet we're still asking about leaking as our first question when shopping for a spa.
I do blame a large part of this on you "thermal pain" guys as you promote the feature of easy repair when it leaks. It's negative selling and we're asking people to spend $8000.00 + and telling them that leaks an freezing are common. ???
Let's focus on real issues and keep leaking in perspective. Unless of course the brand of spa you sell does leak on a regular basis. ;D
Steve
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Call me a magician or whatever you like, I only comparing the two with an average time. I only speak from experience, the idea that a full foam spa is harder to fix or take much more time is BS. Yes there may be a little clean up and refoaming when you are done, but the repair process is pretty much the same.
I am not really pro or con for either form of insulation, I really could care less as I do not sell spas only repair them.
I agree with Steve though that this discussion has gotten out hand Most manufactures do a good job with their spa these days (as far leaks); I fix way more older spas than new ones.
Gary
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Gary,
Your posts have been very good and certainly did not warrant the rude response. Sometimes people really feel a need to justify their purchase and get territorial and I think Rick needs to feel his style is best for some adolescent reason. Most will appreciate your experience, as you seem balanced and fair in your comments.
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I do blame a large part of this on you "thermal pain" guys as you promote the feature of easy repair when it leaks. It's negative selling and we're asking people to spend $8000.00 + and telling them that leaks an freezing are common. ???
Steve
Steve, I have to disagree with this statement. you can walk into almost any spa dealer that sells full foam spas and they'll have a 2' section of 2" flex or rigid pvc caped off and full of water. This usually gets handed to the customer with the statement that tis is only a small section of plumbing that's in your spa. See how heavy it is. If your spa isn't foam filled, all that weight and vibrations from the pumps IS going to cause a leak. Which inturn causes thermo pane style dealers to explain why that's not a problem. The problem exists on both sides of the isle. Sell on merits, not what might happen if you buy that other spa.
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Taking a big risk adding to this debate :-[. But having recently shopped around for and purchased a Spa I wanted to share what we were told or not during our visits to the many dealers in the Ottawa region. In other words the buyer's perspective.
The biggest difference was in approach and both were presented as benefits. The thermopane dealers told us of the benefits of their products because of the ease in fixing leaks as in should there be a leak it will never be a problem to fix. The full foam dealers presented this issue from a warranty perspective as in should there ever be a leak we will be there for you.
In hindsight, we felt more comfortable with the full foam products because they were presenting a benefit of non worry whereas the thermopane dealers caused us to step back a bit as this was presented as a consequence. Now this could be the approach in our area here and very different to others. This is not based on facts or percentages in leaks or anything else but it is the perception that we were left with and it was very much a consistent approach between the two manufacturing styles.
Interestingly, not one dealer showed us a pipe filled with water. All had at least one tub with open panels to show the systems, which is where we could see pipe movement (vibration) in thermopane products. Again perception is what I am speaking about here about product reliability.
I don't profess to put one manufacturing style over another, but the majority of this debate (contest) seems to be between dealers, service tech's, etc.... on this and other boards rather than joe consumer. :P Seems to me that the real issue revolves around managing consumer expectations. The dealer we went with also made it very clear to us that like a car or a house, you need to care for your spa and yes you may in the distant future have to replace parts or fix things like leaks. But, he said, we will be there for you. That for us was the magic phrase that got us to buy from him and not from his full foam competitor (selling another reputable brand) accross the road (literally). Oh yeah, it was also the great experience in the wet test and a million other things.....
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doodo....
Great post...I think you added much to the discusion...I have recently taken factory tours of both a thermo type manufacture and a full foam maker....As at this time I am looking into becoming a dealer...due to an injury that no long allows me to continue my current occupation...during the tour I did see pipes filled with water and from my perspective it is not even debatable as to the benefits of full foam in regards to both sound and plumbing support....I do think as far as keeping your spa hot and running efficiently they are both very very close in cost and in that regard no real benefit to either one. As the techs have spoken here a bit more work for the full foam if you do leak...but not really much of a cost difference to fix....so in the end....I think you made the right choice and that is you went with the dealer who you believed would be there for you if you had a problem....As so many have said...before wet test..find a dealer as well as a product that you prefer and go with that.....as the cost to operate you spa will not vary much with either type of installultion....
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Steve, I have to disagree with this statement. you can walk into almost any spa dealer that sells full foam spas and they'll have a 2' section of 2" flex or rigid pvc caped off and full of water. This usually gets handed to the customer with the statement that tis is only a small section of plumbing that's in your spa. See how heavy it is. If your spa isn't foam filled, all that weight and vibrations from the pumps IS going to cause a leak. Which inturn causes thermo pane style dealers to explain why that's not a problem. The problem exists on both sides of the isle. Sell on merits, not what might happen if you buy that other spa.
I don't know if it's anything to disagree over Frank as I guess everyone has a different selling style. My perspective is obviously based on my experience and what I've seen for over 2 years on these forums.
I refuse to bring up leaks for a number of reasons.
1) It puts a real negative feel on the overall purchase
2) It's not an issue
3) It's negative selling
4) It's not an issue & it's negative selling
Given this, we constantly deal with this question and address it to no end. I don't get it.
If this is what you're seeing Frank, maybe the whole industry needs to stop and take a serious look at how we sell our products and promote them.
For all salespeople here:
Next time you give a presentation and leaks and freezing are included, don't be surprised when you don't get the sale and they walk out thanking you for your time.
Wouldn't it be a benefit to focus on the fun and enjoyment of owning a spa and painting your prospects a picture of reconnecting with their family and just feeling great instead? I guess everyone will decide what's best for them and what works best for selling tubs.
Steve
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Surely Steve, I agree with your statements in that last post. What I disagree with is your comment that the "thermopaners" are the ones keeping this issue alive.
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I believe that you should only bring up features if they have benifits.
"It is easier to fix a leak in." is NOT a benifit. It is also not true.
Steve; I am curious, what do you say if your customer brings up leaks.
Robert
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Steve; I am curious, what do you say if your customer brings up leaks.
Robert
Great question Robert.
I try to make it very clear that leaks were common many years ago when we, as an industry, weren't as advanced with our plumbing and designs.
I will never say that you should buy a Beachcomber because it will never leak, but the chances are very slim.
Taking into account the "worse case scenario", a leak in a Beachcomber can be repaired easily when performed by a knowledgeable service tech. The cabinet is designed with tounge & grove boards and can be removed in the event of a possible leak. Usually, most repairs are preformed in about an hour and not as serious as the horror stories told by some dealers. The people suggesting that all the foam needs to be removed and the allusion that it takes a tremendous effort and cost to repair, are generally unskilled at repairs or are selling against a fully insulated product. Fear of losing a sale will promote an array of excuses to not purchase a proven technique. It’s often amusing to hear some of the derogatory comments made on full insulation all for the sake of the sale. We in our city alone, have over 7000 customers that will tell you otherwise.
The largest manufacturers in the world are fully insulated spas. There's a reason that most of us have been doing it for over 25 years. Because it works. For us, we’ve been selling Beachcomber in the same city for over 20 years and if this was a problem (and as serious as some will have you believe) there’s no possible way we could continue to operate a very successful business and do 60% of our business in referrals for the length of time we have.
Oh... Certainly you can make that cheque out to Beachcomber Hot Tubs. Welcome to the Beachcomber family! ;D
Steve
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Great question Robert.
I try to make it very clear that leaks were common many years ago when we, as an industry, weren't as advanced with our plumbing and designs.
I will never say that you should buy a Beachcomber because it will never leak, but the chances are very slim.
Taking into account the "worse case scenario", a leak in a Beachcomber can be repaired easily when performed by a knowledgeable service tech. The cabinet is designed with tounge & grove boards and can be removed in the event of a possible leak. Usually, most repairs are preformed in about an hour and not as serious as the horror stories told by some dealers. The people suggesting that all the foam needs to be removed and the allusion that it takes a tremendous effort and cost to repair, are generally unskilled at repairs or are selling against a fully insulated product. Fear of losing a sale will promote an array of excuses to not purchase a proven technique. It’s often amusing to hear some of the derogatory comments made on full insulation all for the sake of the sale. We in our city alone, have over 7000 customers that will tell you otherwise.
The largest manufacturers in the world are fully insulated spas. There's a reason that most of us have been doing it for over 25 years. Because it works. For us, we’ve been selling Beachcomber in the same city for over 20 years and if this was a problem (and as serious as some will have you believe) there’s no possible way we could continue to operate a very successful business and do 60% of our business in referrals for the length of time we have.
Oh... Certainly you can make that cheque out to Beachcomber Hot Tubs. Welcome to the Beachcomber family! ;D
Steve
Sounds good
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It's better if you have to compare the price and the time you spend in repairing and replacing the hot tub leaks. You should always consider the budget and the time every time you have decision regarding the replacement or repairing of things. Sometimes, it depends upon the need of repair. If it is only needed light repair, then you better choose for the repair of it. But, if the damage can cost more than that of buying new one, then, it is better if you buy new.