Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Payton on February 14, 2013, 10:24:00 am
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As a newbie, mastering this new hot tub chemistry...I flunked!!! My hot tub was cloudy with an odor. I added too much dichlor, I believe, and kept the tub at 104. After a month the filter was slimy (beyond belief with crud) and dirty. I haven't even mentioned the whole tub was full of foam ( like a bubble bath)! Quarantined it! This is not an advertisement I promise. I searched for answers and read about all natural Eco one. I sent away for it and I swear, my hot tub is now clear. The water feels different too. I read I should drain the tub, purge the pipes, etc. Great advice but we have 3 feet of snow so I drained a little and added some back and cleaned the filters with their filter cleaner. Next I added their shock and eco monthly to my mess. Waited 24 hours and my water is clear. I've been adding a small amount of liquid chlorine and the tub is completely balanced! It feels different too, smoother. It is supposed to be natural. I am going to continure to research the product to make sure it is safe. For now, I am so grateful! My chemical disater is now easy to maintain. Does anyone know how it works or if it safe? I read something about all natural and enzymes but their website says it is not enzymes. Thanks in advance.
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Two little notes:
All new hot tub owners need to do a water change at 30 days. This is a one-time water change which makes all the changes you attribute to Eco one, all by itself.
Eco one recommends that you keep a low level of chlorine at all times. So, what's the benefit?
HTH
8)
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Eco One=waste of money. Skip it and use just the chlorine. You will have the same results.
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I couldn't drain the tub with the snow. I siphoned less than 4 inches of water off and replaced it. I was using dichlor and every day the chlorine would read 0. I'd add more and for the night it would read in the right range but you could smell the chlorine. I was also using non-chlorine shock, ph up, and scaler. I was listening to the dealer, neighbors, this forum and I made a mess. This stuff turned my mess into the hot tub I had first day of fill only smoother with no chlorine odor. Trust me I want to do this economically as I have 3 in college!!! I have since read the bottle on their shock: Danger, caution...use goggles and gloves.....No ingredients or cautions on their monthly bottle. I will say my water is nice but I will be calling them about ingredients and cautions! simplify your spa naturally, goggles and gloves don't seem natural.....
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I couldn't drain the tub with the snow. I siphoned less than 4 inches of water off and replaced it. I was using dichlor and every day the chlorine would read 0. I'd add more and for the night it would read in the right range but you could smell the chlorine. I was also using non-chlorine shock, ph up, and scaler. I was listening to the dealer, neighbors, this forum and I made a mess. This stuff turned my mess into the hot tub I had first day of fill only smoother with no chlorine odor. Trust me I want to do this economically as I have 3 in college!!! I have since read the bottle on their shock: Danger, caution...use goggles and gloves.....No ingredients or cautions on their monthly bottle. I will say my water is nice but I will be calling them about ingredients and cautions! simplify your spa naturally, goggles and gloves don't seem natural.....
If you have a chlorine smell while your soaking you are doing it wrong. Gloves and goggles are not needed for chlorine. You made the mess not the dealer, your neighbors or this forum. Skip the Eco One. It's a waste of money. The chlorine your using is clearing up the water not the Eco One.
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I couldn't drain the tub with the snow. I siphoned less than 4 inches of water off and replaced it. I was using dichlor and every day the chlorine would read 0. I'd add more and for the night it would read in the right range but you could smell the chlorine. I was also using non-chlorine shock, ph up, and scaler. I was listening to the dealer, neighbors, this forum and I made a mess. This stuff turned my mess into the hot tub I had first day of fill only smoother with no chlorine odor. Trust me I want to do this economically as I have 3 in college!!! I have since read the bottle on their shock: Danger, caution...use goggles and gloves.....No ingredients or cautions on their monthly bottle. I will say my water is nice but I will be calling them about ingredients and cautions! simplify your spa naturally, goggles and gloves don't seem natural.....
I'm not trying to pile on, as this sounds like an obvious sales pitch for Eco1, but wanted to add two bits for those watching at home.
Having 3" or 3' of snow is irrelevant to whether you can drain a tub or not. It may not be the most fun/comfortable thing in the world. But if you're draining 95+ degree water, you are not running a risk of anything freezing up. 2. You drained (maybe) 10% of the water in the tub. That's not going to be enough to have made any difference whatsoever in your water quality.
Not to mention, if your water was -that- nasty, then you need to look within and figure out what you're introducing to the water before you start worrying about what's effectively removing it from the water.
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Tman I said I made the mess. I followed too many different sources and combined them. Big deal. Wasn't blaming anyone but me. Our tub is on a sunken patio so I cannot get to drain and exactly my point that 10% draining should have no effect. My water is crystal clear and I have only added a very small amount of chlorine every other day over the past week and the levels are perfect. I know you dont need goggles for chlorine, it's written on the Eco one shock bottle to wear all of that....So in plain English, I made a huge mess switched to Eco One and mess is gone, problem is reading the package it's not so natural and it may even be toxic. That is all I wanted advice on...does anyone know if it is safe or natural?
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If they are natural they are never approved as safe. That's why you have to use chlorine.
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My water is crystal clear and I have only added a very small amount of chlorine every other day over the past week and the levels are perfect. ....So in plain English, I made a huge mess switched to Eco One and mess is gone, problem is reading the package it's not so natural and it may even be toxic. That is all I wanted advice on...does anyone know if it is safe or natural?
As others have pointed out, the small chlorine every other day is what is cleaning up you water & the Eco One just "happened" to be added at the same time. Your getting a placebo effect here. Some of us have used Eco One before and moved away from it simply because it was an additional, un needed cost. You mentioned "Liquid" chlorine which was the only thing that gave me concern. Unless things have changed in the past few years, 95% of us use a granular chlorine (Di-Chlor) and most liquids are a TRI-Chlor which would NOT be recommended for hot tubs as it can cause deterioration.
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...You mentioned "Liquid" chlorine which was the only thing that gave me concern. Unless things have changed in the past few years, 95% of us use a granular chlorine (Di-Chlor) and most liquids are a TRI-Chlor which would NOT be recommended for hot tubs as it can cause deterioration.
Clorox with a minimum 6% concentration is approved as a sanitizer for hot tubs and pools when used correctly.
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Payton,
Been using EcoOne since day one with our spa and have never had an issue. Doesn't get any easier than chucking in a packet from my back door after I get out. The monthly product is all natural and the packets have the same warnings as any other sanitizing product would. Using their product, I never wasted one minute trouble-shooting, or running to a local dealer to buy more products and spend more money to see if I can "fix" some problem by adding more of this or that. I find some who rip on the product, have never used it or simply don't like that it costs a tad more than other options out there. Yet, some will spend $10,000-$15,000 on a spa, then look for the cheapest products to put in their tub, regardless of how much additional time or troubleshooting is necessary in order to get their water correct. I wanted simple and easy and I found this product to be spot on. Good luck with your hot tub.
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Payton,
Been using EcoOne since day one with our spa and have never had an issue. Doesn't get any easier than chucking in a packet from my back door after I get out. The monthly product is all natural and the packets have the same warnings as any other sanitizing product would. Using their product, I never wasted one minute trouble-shooting, or running to a local dealer to buy more products and spend more money to see if I can "fix" some problem by adding more of this or that. I find some who rip on the product, have never used it or simply don't like that it costs a tad more than other options out there. Yet, some will spend $10,000-$15,000 on a spa, then look for the cheapest products to put in their tub, regardless of how much additional time or troubleshooting is necessary in order to get their water correct. I wanted simple and easy and I found this product to be spot on. Good luck with your hot tub.
I'm not ripping on it. You can decide to waste your money on it or not. A cap full of dichlor from a 6 lb bottle that cost 12 bucks and lasts for a year or an expensive pre packaged packet of dichlor that likely cost 5 times that. That can be a tad more or 5 times as much how ever you want to see it. 1 in 100 have trouble. Most of us use a cup of baking soda, period.
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1 in 100 have trouble.
Is that figure from the 2013 "liberal statistics" hot tub guide? ;D
As far as a waste of money, I think people who don’t have the money on-hand and think they have to buy a $12,000 hot tub in which they take out financing for, to me, that is a waste of money. But, it’s all relative. Time is money in my book and ease of use is worth something as well; if it works and has been gravy since day one and has been great on our skin, I don't mind paying a little more. And, for the volume of posts on this forum and others about people having trouble with their water maintenance, I question your 1 in 100 guess. But, regardless, to each their own, the beauty of having choices in this country. :)
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12,000 dollar hot tub!!!!! Are you kidding me? 8000 is high end for me in this part of the country. Most people pay 6-7.
So the people that aren't having problems with their water. Do you think they post here? Or are we just seeing 1/10 of 1 percent posting here that have problems. How many tubs are sold a year? How many posters do we have here? I think we see a few hundred posts from people having problems and many many thousands don't post and don't have problems. I have customers who use Eco One They love it also. However it is a lot more than a tad more expensive. And it isn't any less work in my opinion. You throw in Eco One. I throw in Baking soda. You throw in a packet after a soak. I throw in a cap full of dichlor. Seems about the same to me. Baking soda, 4 bucks a year. Dichlor 12 bucks a year. How much is a years worth of Eco One?
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There was a spate of hot tub itch/rash/lung incidents on another hot tub forum and I kept track of them in this post (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11064) to see if I could find a pattern. The biggest problem was that people weren't using sufficient quantities of disinfectant since no one was told that 1) the amount needed is roughly proportional to bather load, 2) the amount depends on whether an ozonator is used and on the frequency of soaking, and 3) disinfectant needs to be added (manually or automatically) in between soaks unless soaking every day or two. There also seemed to be some correlation with Dichlor-only use where more problems were seen after 2-3 months of heavier use. There were incidents from using "alternative" sanitizers and since far fewer people use those, that indicated that they weren't a good solution either.
I had proposed using Dichlor initially to build up some CYA and then switch to bleach, but initially I didn't have people use 50 ppm Borates so one person had problems with high pH causing scaling and one dealer laid into me about that. After having people lower the TA to around 50 ppm and use 50 ppm Borates, we haven't seen such problems. As for hot tub rash/itch/lung, there weren't any reports from anyone using Dichlor-then-bleach, but the sample size is obviously a lot smaller.
People who follow a proper regimen of dosing don't report problems. The issue is that for chlorine it's a manual process (unless one uses a saltwater chlorine generator, but that's mostly for a background level) so is more effort. For bromine using tabs, it's easier, but even then with heavier bather load one still needs to manually add an oxidizer after a soak unless one has a strong ozonator.
Unfortunately, there aren't as many hot tub owners reporting on forums to get great statistics. For pools, however, there are tens of thousands reporting on multiple forums (mostly Trouble Free Pool (http://www.troublefreepool.com) and The PoolForum (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/index.php)) where following similar principles of chlorine and CYA management has such pools have failure rates of less than 1 in 5,000. By failure, it's algae growth (yellow/mustard algae takes higher chlorine levels to get rid of compared to green algae, but "failure" is even after taking that into account). It takes a higher active chlorine level to kill algae than it does to kill bacteria.
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Where can you find 5 lb's of dichlor for $12? That seems unbelievably low to me
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Where can you find 5 lb's of dichlor for $12? That seems unbelievably low to me
Top secret.
No really I think in a store it's more like $20 One of the dealers I do work for sells it to me, likely at cost.
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I am reading these posts with great interest - we purchased a 190 gallon 110volt tub in September - along with all the Diamond products - have had rashes/itching since. It does have an ozonator built in to it - what we were doing is using Bromine tabs in a floater (keeping it full and floating unless we were in it) then using two capfuls of a product called Spa Shock each day when we get out of the tub from soaking - then we were told to put 1/2 packet of spa frog in once a week - ( we have ph up and down - alk up, foam be gone, sani start.........the pool place has had us trying everything to get it right ) - we test and it looks close to the colors - but we are still rashy and itchy. I was trying to come up with a plan that would be for a 190 gallon tub - what to use each day, week...... it is only two adults (and we shower before and after) I am ready to give up - but I love the tub so much. ZThe water looks clear and doesn't smell bad, just a little like the bromine. Are we using too much? too little? is there something we can try? help please.......
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I am reading these posts with great interest - we purchased a 190 gallon 110volt tub in September - along with all the Diamond products - have had rashes/itching since. It does have an ozonator built in to it - what we were doing is using Bromine tabs in a floater (keeping it full and floating unless we were in it) then using two capfuls of a product called Spa Shock each day when we get out of the tub from soaking - then we were told to put 1/2 packet of spa frog in once a week - ( we have ph up and down - alk up, foam be gone, sani start.........the pool place has had us trying everything to get it right ) - we test and it looks close to the colors - but we are still rashy and itchy. I was trying to come up with a plan that would be for a 190 gallon tub - what to use each day, week...... it is only two adults (and we shower before and after) I am ready to give up - but I love the tub so much. ZThe water looks clear and doesn't smell bad, just a little like the bromine. Are we using too much? too little? is there something we can try? help please.......
Short answer: You're adding too much.
Dump out the water and start over. Add your sanitizer, slowly, in small increments, waiting a good hour or two before testing the water. Then get your PH right. 190 is a small tub, and small amounts will make big differences in your water balance.
If you give the board accurate readings from your test kit, and describe your bathing habits (Every other day, 30 minutes, 2 people?) you'll get some clear advice here on how much to add, and how frequently.
You'll also get advice to skip all that tricky stuff and just toss in a packet or two of wonder drug X and you'll be fine.
Its up to you how to proceed. Once you get it right, stick with what works for you and enjoy. There's no reason however to be itchy or uncomfortable.
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I was thinking it sounded like alot of stuff myself - we liked going in every day and would usually stay in for 30 minutes - we shower before and after getting in the tub - we have been using the test strips and it is really hard to judge the colors (they all look so close) I wanted to get a better test kit - but was waiting till I was sure what chemicals we were going to use because someone told me that there are several ones and you have to get the right one for the chemicals you use - when we first got the tub we went to a local pool place and that guy told us to just use bleach and baking soda to keep up with a small tub? now like I said we have every thing under the sun as far as chemicals go - what route would you suggest for that size of tub and what test kit (I hope that you all do not mind so many questions, but we just do not know) thanks so much for any and all help :-)
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Some people do have a reaction like this to MPS also. I think your product called spa shock is MPS right? Peroxymonopersulfate? Is that what it is? I don't have any to look at the label.
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I was thinking it sounded like alot of stuff myself - we liked going in every day and would usually stay in for 30 minutes - we shower before and after getting in the tub - we have been using the test strips and it is really hard to judge the colors (they all look so close) I wanted to get a better test kit - but was waiting till I was sure what chemicals we were going to use because someone told me that there are several ones and you have to get the right one for the chemicals you use - when we first got the tub we went to a local pool place and that guy told us to just use bleach and baking soda to keep up with a small tub? now like I said we have every thing under the sun as far as chemicals go - what route would you suggest for that size of tub and what test kit (I hope that you all do not mind so many questions, but we just do not know) thanks so much for any and all help :-)
You'll get a bunch of answers here, and I don't claim to be any sort of expert. I am most familiar with chlorine. I grew up with a pool, using chlorine and so that's what I naturally gravitated towards when I bought my hot tub a couple years ago. With chlorine I purchased the Taylor test kit:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002IXIIG/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Its a little complicated at first, but I have much more success with it than I ever did the strips. Some people like the strips, I thought they were useless.
Baking Soda is one of your key ingredients. Its not a cleaning agent, its just a base. It can be used to raise your alkalinity, aiming for 80-100 ppm. It'll also raise your ph a bit. I use Spa Down once in a while, not often, to drop the ph as needed.
What you need to do varies based on what comes out of your tap.
As far as keeping it clean. as I mentioned I use chlorine. I aim to have a chlorine level of near 0 when I get into the tub, and then add chlorine when we're done soaking. Every now and then using a non-chlorine shock to reduce the combined chlorine level.
All in all, it shouldn't be too complicated for you, and when in doubt (depending on your location) you can always dump the water and start over. Until you find your equilibrium, that's a better option than chasing your tail.
Again, add your chemicals slowly (whatever path you take) and wait an hour or two before testing. Also, only add one chemical at a time.
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Thank you all for your input. I have ecoone sending me their data sheet but we were skiing in Vermont for long week-end so no chlorine added and tub starting to look slimy again. I added a shock packet before I left, turned tub down to 100, and noone was in it for 5 days. So I absolutely want to drain it and start over. I can get to drain now after digging snow out but it's 20 degrees here. Can you give me advice on draining, cleaning and refilling without freezing or damaging tub. I am sure it's a bacterial problem after seeing the slimy exudate on the filter. Thanks again. Because of the major snow we've had I did not empty tub at 30 days like recommended and I'm sure that did not help.
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so I researched a bit more on this Spaguard Spa SHock (which is 31% Pot. Peroxymonosulfate?) we have been adding 2 capfuls after each soak (2 adults showering before) and whammo....back to the rashes and itchies - I read that we should only be adding this SpaShock once a week? the pool place people said two capfuls A DAY? I am going to drain and start over - 190 gallons of water - can someone sort of list what I should add to start the tub off and then what I should add daily after every soak? I am just not getting it at all - and if I need to add the bleach and baking soda , how much and when on that too - I really appreciate help - I miss not getting in the tub :-( I have Brom tabs, Renew, Spa Shock, PH UP, PH Down, Scale Remover, Spa Frog packets, Alk Up, foam remover,,,,,,,,, I am just about out of money and skin LOL LOL
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I have Brom tabs, Renew, Spa Shock, PH UP, PH Down, Scale Remover, Spa Frog packets, Alk Up, foam remover,,,,,,,,, I am just about out of money and skin LOL LOL
I think you're not alone with that list of products on a shelf, unfortunately. After the advice in this thread, if you still are not happy, give EcoOne a shot. It does cost a little more per year, but all you need is their EcoOne Spa Monthly all natural product (that is added once a month of course), and then just their EcoOne Shock packets (which you just throw one it your hot tub each time you get out) - that's it, simple and easy. I test my water about once a month or month and a half, it's always spot on and skin feels great.
Best of luck.
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...You mentioned "Liquid" chlorine which was the only thing that gave me concern. Unless things have changed in the past few years, 95% of us use a granular chlorine (Di-Chlor) and most liquids are a TRI-Chlor which would NOT be recommended for hot tubs as it can cause deterioration.
Clorox with a minimum 6% concentration is approved as a sanitizer for hot tubs and pools when used correctly.
Approved by who?
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Approved by who?
The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) that registers all pesticides. See the PAN Pesticides Database (http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR=00581300050&DIST_NR=005813) where Clorox bleach has an EPA registration number of 5813-50 and under Uses it is a "Disinfectant" and under Crops and Locations it shows "Swimming pool water", "Swimming pool water (wading pool)", "Hot tubs (outdoor) (water treatment)", "Spas (outdoor) (water treatment)". See pages 21-22 of this EPA document (http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/005813-00050-20110303.pdf) (from the most recent label approval in the Pesticide Product Label System (http://iaspub.epa.gov/apex/pesticides/f?p=PPLS:8:6528246530058::NO::P8_PUID,P8_RINUM:21965,5813-50)) for swimming pools and pages 25-26 for wading pools and pages 32-33 for spas and hot tubs. There is also this service bulletin from Clorox (http://www.clorox.com/pdf/5813-50_service-bulletins.pdf) with the same information.
Do not use just any bleach. Specialty bleaches, such as "splashless" or "outdoor" contain additional chemicals that you don't want in a pool or spa since the thickening agents can cause foaming. Also, do not use bleach without having some CYA in the water first or else the active chlorine level will be too strong (known science since at least 1974 when the equilibrium constants of chlorine unbound and bound to CYA were definitively determined as described in this paper (http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/~richardfalk/pool/OBrien.htm)). CYA significantly moderates chlorines strength. You want some in the water (30-40 ppm), but not too much. Continued use of Dichlor-only will build up CYA which is part of the reason water turns dull/cloudy sooner with that method than with Dichlor-then-bleach. Also, when using any hypochlorite source of chlorine in a spa with lots of aeration (such as jets), you need to have the Total Alkalinity (TA) level kept lower (as low as 50 ppm if necessary) and use 50 ppm borates as a pH buffer.
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Approved by who?
The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) that registers all pesticides. See the PAN Pesticides Database (http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR=00581300050&DIST_NR=005813) where Clorox bleach has an EPA registration number of 5813-50 and under Uses it is a "Disinfectant" and under Crops and Locations it shows "Swimming pool water", "Swimming pool water (wading pool)", "Hot tubs (outdoor) (water treatment)", "Spas (outdoor) (water treatment)". See pages 21-22 of this EPA document (http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/005813-00050-20110303.pdf) (from the most recent label approval in the Pesticide Product Label System (http://iaspub.epa.gov/apex/pesticides/f?p=PPLS:8:6528246530058::NO::P8_PUID,P8_RINUM:21965,5813-50)) for swimming pools and pages 25-26 for wading pools and pages 32-33 for spas and hot tubs. There is also this service bulletin from Clorox (http://www.clorox.com/pdf/5813-50_service-bulletins.pdf) with the same information.
Do not use just any bleach. Specialty bleaches, such as "splashless" or "outdoor" contain additional chemicals that you don't want in a pool or spa since the thickening agents can cause foaming. Also, do not use bleach without having some CYA in the water first or else the active chlorine level will be too strong (known science since at least 1974 when the equilibrium constants of chlorine unbound and bound to CYA were definitively determined as described in this paper (http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/~richardfalk/pool/OBrien.htm)). CYA significantly moderates chlorines strength. You want some in the water (30-40 ppm), but not too much. Continued use of Dichlor-only will build up CYA which is part of the reason water turns dull/cloudy sooner with that method than with Dichlor-then-bleach. Also, when using any hypochlorite source of chlorine in a spa with lots of aeration (such as jets), you need to have the Total Alkalinity (TA) level kept lower (as low as 50 ppm if necessary) and use 50 ppm borates as a pH buffer.
Thanks for the info regarding EPA. So the truth is that it is "approved by EPA" not by the hot tub industry per se.
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That's right. In fact, quite a few hot tub manufacturers explicitly say not to use bleach, but that's because that's the simplest thing to say rather than the more correct answer which is that one shouldn't use bleach without first having some CYA in the water and taking steps to prevent the pH rise from carbon dioxide outgassing (i.e. have a lower TA target and use a pH buffer such as 50 ppm Borates). So for simplicity, it's just easier to say to use Dichlor since it already has CYA in it and is a little acidic when accounting for chlorine usage so tends to keep pH in balance at a certain TA level. The downside is that it builds up CYA fairly quickly in more heavily used spas so significantly shortens the time between required water changes.
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Shortening the time between water changes is not necessarily a bad thing. Especially for new owners.