Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Chas on October 28, 2011, 10:40:30 am
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I have a customer who got 'Hot Tub Rash.' He wants his money back on his 6-week old spa, and has sent me a 'demand letter' stating that fact. ::)
I am offering to go cleanse the tub for him at my expense. No, there is no way I or anyone else can 'guarantee' that he won't get it again down the road, of course. I'm sure we will work it out, but it got me to thinking:
How many of you have either had the tub bug, or know of somebody who has? I have sold tubs since 1986 and have only had a handful of people get 'bugged,' so it's not a common thing. Each of the times I can remember some special reason - new tub, people had used the tub without permission, really old tub being fired back up for the first time etc. You can avoid it by simply keeping the tub clean and sanitized. But like anything else in life, it does happen to the nicest people on occasion. Once you find you have it, relax: it does go away, usually by itself. The tub can be cleansed, of course, and life can go on.
This particular customer has been a GREAT customer over the years. This is the third tub he has purchased from us, and he KNOWS how to care for a tub. But, I understand that he is upset. His doctor doesn't seem to be helping matters, making statements which only seem to scare the guy.
So - post your stories. I'll start:
I put a HS Grandee in my yard before we were ready. This was over ten years ago. It sat over a year before we finally got the slab, patio and yard in shape to hook it up and begin using it. (We soaked at the store all the time!) The very first dip - my son and niece got the rash. I finished it up late at night, and had NOT put in chlorine yet, but I had not told my wife to keep them out of the tub. Oops!
The doctor called it "New Hot Tub Owner's Rash," actually it was some follicular thing - folliculitis or Pseudomonas. I'm not a doctor. Our doc gave our son an antibiotic, and told us to keep him out of the tub for awhile. No problem, no recurrence, end of story. The niece got some anti-bacterial cream, also cleared up fast and no future problem. Note: we gave my son a HotSpring Prodigy for a wedding present many years later, and they loved it - almost lived in it - no rash ever again. The niece? Her folks (my brother in law) purchased a HotSpring Classic from a friend, I helped them set it up, and they loved it for years. No rash, ever.
Anyone?
8)
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On another forum, I noticed that there were quite a few hot tub rash/itch/lung incidents and I was trying to emphasize the importance of proper sanitation so I kept track of them in this post (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11064&st=0&p=51033) though after a while I stopped keeping track. The bottom line is the following:
- Not all rashes are bacterial. Some are chemical sensitivity (see this link (http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/~richardfalk/pool/rashes.htm) for a distinction) and some are simply extended exposure to hot water or to the force of jets.
- Many spa users, especially those using spas without ozonators, use woefully inadequate amounts of sanitizer/oxidizer to handle their bather waste. With no ozonator, it takes around 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor, 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS) to oxidize each person-hour of bather waste in a hot (104ºF) spa. With an ozonator, this required amount is cut roughly in half though that depends on the strength and on-time of the ozonator. If one does not use enough oxidizer, then the sanitizer level can get to near-zero and bacteria can grow and form sanitizer-resistant biofilms. Adding chlorine once-a-week is not sufficient.
- Ozone reacts with chlorine so in chlorinated spas with low bather load (used once a week or less) the chlorine level can get to zero and biofilms can form. This is most easily detected when the no-bather-load oxidizer demand goes way up and does not come down (i.e. you can't "catch up"). Decontamination is required to remove biofilm.
- Use of alternative sanitizers (metal ions, enzymes, surfactants) by themselves is not sufficient to prevent uncontrolled bacterial growth. Copper ions or enzymes alone are specifically problematic. Silver ion or copper/silver combinations are better (silver with MPS is EPA-approved in Nature2 for hot tubs only, not for pools) and the jury is out on surfactants/minerals that inhibit biofilm formation.
- The use of Dichlor (or Trichlor) builds up CYA in the water making chlorine less effective. After some time, perhaps 1-2 months in more heavily used spas, it may not be able to kill Pseudomonas aeruginosa that causes hot tub itch/rash or Mycobacterium avium that causes hot tub lung, though this is speculative and not definitive due to the low sample size of reports and may be coincident with improper sanitation (i.e. not using enough sanitizer).
Did your customer decontaminate his spa when he first received it either through use of Spa System Flush (or Swirl Away) or superchlorination or both? Did he consistently maintain a sanitizer level in the spa at all times?
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Well in this case it was a small spa - a "Jetsetter" and I put in two dry ounces of dichlor as we started it up. That's normal for our deliveries, recommended by Watkins since they wet test every spa they build.
The owner had a previous spa for twenty years, so when I offered to go over the sanitizing and water care he couldn't be bothered and just gave me a wave and a "I'm an old hand at that stuff, no problem."
I have not heard back from him after the letter - I sent him one back (after discussion with the customer service folks at Watkins MFG) and offered to come decon the tub, give him a new set of filters, a larger supply of Dichlor, etc.
Ironically, a resort just down the block from the guy had two cases (they have 24 spas) right after they changed managers. I think the spa guy chose that change to cut down from visiting all the spas every day to once or twice a week. Makes me wonder if they had more cases than they know about...
8)
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2 ounces of Dichlor in a Jettsetter at 225 gallons is 37 ppm Free Chlorine (FC). Because this also adds 34 ppm CYA to the water, the active chlorine level is the same as if you had 3.7 ppm FC with no CYA. The decontamination procedure from the Association of Pool and Spa Professionals (APSP) is described in this post (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13119&st=0&p=61564&#entry61564) with a more thorough procedure described in this post (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19115) where the latter includes the use of Spa System Flush to better remove biofilms.
Nevertheless, what you did was probably good enough and I suspect that the customer didn't maintain the sanitizer level before using the spa. Since bacteria can double in population in 15-60 minutes, it doesn't take long to get a problem if sanitizer levels get to zero. One bacteria can become 4 billion in just 8 hours under ideal conditions.
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How many of you have either had the tub bug, or know of somebody who has? I have sold tubs since 1986 and have only had a handful of people get 'bPlease report me to admin. I'm a filthy spammer.ed,' so it's not a common thing. E
LOL
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How many of you have either had the tub bug, or know of somebody who has? I have sold tubs since 1986 and have only had a handful of people get 'bPlease report me to admin. I'm a filthy spammer.ed,' so it's not a common thing. E
LOL
I've noticed the 'bPlease report me to admin. I'm a filthy spammer.ed,' in several posts from differnt members. It looks like hacker work to me. :o
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It's from the moderators adding a specific word to a banned word list. The word is;
u g g (without the spaces).
The programming changes the banned word to "Please report me to admin. I'm a filthy spammer"
That particular phrase you quoted was supposed to be the word;
b u g g e d
The problem can probably be corrected if a space is put before the word in question.
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It's from the moderators adding a specific word to a banned word list. The word is;
u g g (without the spaces).
The programming changes the banned word to "Please report me to admin. I'm a filthy spammer"
That particular phrase you quoted was supposed to be the word;
b u g g e d
The problem can probably be corrected if a space is put before the word in question.
Can't it be set up so that it won't catch it unless there is a space before the U and after the G? Otherwise this means we can't use words like strug-gle or jug-gle!
"I tried to work for 2 dealers but I struggled when I attempted to juggle both jobs".
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It's from the moderators adding a specific word to a banned word list. The word is;
u g g (without the spaces).
The programming changes the banned word to "Please report me to admin. I'm a filthy spammer"
That particular phrase you quoted was supposed to be the word;
b u g g e d
The problem can probably be corrected if a space is put before the word in question.
Hmm, I and I believe Bonnie no longer have access to the banned words in this version of the forum. I will admit to deleting poon from the list so that we can use spoon in a sentence. This is the first I've seen the words filthy spammer used in that manner. I'll have to check into that.
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Fixed.
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Fixed.
See the power and fear I wield?
Now back to the original topic, Chas have you, or any of you refunded a tub because of this?
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No Bill - I have never refunded due to this problem.
I have still not heard back from this customer.
I have used decontamination procedures from Watkins MFG before, and have even posted them here for others over the years - the two ounces I added at start up was not meant to be a decontamination, rather a preventative. The water Watkins uses to test each spa (they test ALL tubs) is heated, filtered, and chlorinated. I have seen spas sitting on the production line running with hot water, and it looks sparkling clean!! They do not want any safety or health issues with their employees as well as the end users...
And the fill water in this case gave me a reading of almost 1PPM before I added the two dry ounces.
8)