Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: mprusak on October 26, 2011, 02:10:30 pm
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Hi all! New to the forum & would appreciate any input you might have!
We inherited a hot tub from our neighers when they moved. It is a very large Thermospa tub with a couple beds - 6 (or more) person size. They had lived in the home for about 2 years and had not used the tub in that time. They had it covered and up on blocks on a concrete pad. They had used it at their previous home and said that it had worked great with no problems prior to moving it. They never completed the electrical for the tub at their new home, so we were not able to test it at all. We basically took it because it was a short move from their yard to ours and the price was right (next to nothing).
So now we have this huge hot tub in our yard. The question is...is there any way we can test any portion of it without the electrical hooked up? If we fill it with water, can we test it for basic leaks without having the jets operational? We don't want to sink a lot of money into prepping for the tub only to find out that it has major issues. The interior of the tub looks to be in great condition - no visible issues whatsoever.
Does anyone have any advice on what our first steps should be to see if we can get this up and running without breaking the bank? We are fine putting the cash in to get it going if it actually works, but we aren't sure if there is a way to figure that out ahead of time. Thanks in advance for your comments.
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Luckily for you ThermoSpa uses a thermolocking insulation. This means if there are leaks it wont take much to fix. If the shell and cabinets are in good condition you shouldnt have to worry about crazy costs. If you need to start replacing pumps/electrical components would be your major costs, and obviously you cannot find that out unless you hook it up.
Hot tubs are expensive toys, and you might need to sink a few hundred to maybe over a thousand dollars into it to get it going...but once you do it might be the best money your family ever spent! I would wire it and fill it, then tell us whats going on after you fire it up!
If you filled it and all the water comes right out it might be discouraging, but it could be a $10.00 split nut and thats it, generally the worst looking repairs are the easiest and least expensive to fix. To get to any expensive repairs youll need to run it.
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Thanks for your input, MileHigh. We are working on getting an electrician over here to advise on the electrical. I am sure we will have lots of questions, so when (if?) we get it up and running, I'm sure we will be updating!
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I'd like to add some additional information and personal concerns in hopes of getting some additional feedback.
First, we do have an electrician coming this weekend to advise on what needs done in that regard, so we got that ball rolling...
More about this spa...as stated, it was owned by our neighbors, but not used for the entire time they lived there (2+ years), and probably longer than that. It for sure sat outside for 2 years...that's 2 cold Chicago winters and 2 hot Chicago summers and everything in between. During this time it was propped up off the ground. It was on a level concrete slab, resting on 3 bricks on each corner, so about 1 ft off the ground. Cover was on the entire time.
In doing some reading on this site: http://www.spadepot.com/spacyclopedia/used-hot-tubs.htm, I was concerned by things like:
"Like an abandoned car, never run or taken out on the road, a spa stored empty or not run for a period of time will quickly begin to deteriorate. Condensation will form on electrical components causing corrosion and bad connections. Pump motor shafts can rust and lock up from lack of use. Seals and gaskets can dry out, shrink and cause future water leakage after refilling.
Note also that a spa stored "empty" in sub-freezing temperatures is a prime candidate for leaks. Why? Even after draining, up to 6 gallons of water can remain in the pipes, pump and plumbing. When subjected to very cold temperatures, this water will freeze and expand, causing plumbing system cracks and fractures. Of course, an unheated spa full of water can meet the same fate."
and,
"It's been said by spa repair technicians that if buying a used hot tub, you can bet the next $500 in your checkbook that you'll need service sometime within the next year or so. From our long experience as the nation's leading replacement parts supplier, we'd agree-- that's a fairly good assessment.
The repair dollar estimates below can vary widely, but will give you a rough idea of your risk exposure when buying used. Repairmen that will make a house call for under $200, even for the most minor issue, are becoming rare. You will shoulder all of this burden without the benefit of a new spa's warranty."
and,
"Wood Rot & Vermin
Even an exterior wood skirt surround that appears to be in good shape can buckle or begin to fall apart when the spa is moved to a new location. Underlying wood rot in the framing or support members is not always visible from the outside of the spa. Skirts rot from the inside out, and from the ground up. Spas that have been sitting on soil or next to a wall or in a deck tend to rot out faster than if situated on a concrete slab in an open-air, well ventilated area.
The illustration (right) shows the supporting wood structure of a hot tub with the skirting panels removed. Without removing the panels, the only way to inspect for rot is to tilt the empty spa up on its side.
Wet or rotting wood attracts carpenter ants and termites, which can quickly devour and weaken the entire structure. Rodents have been known to shred the insulation off of the acrylic shell and plumbing to make nests, no place is warmer than a nice insulated spa surround when the water temperature is at 104 degrees. They love to gnaw on hoses and nibble wiring, sometimes not quite enough to actually break them until the spa is moved to its new location."
Contamination:
" if neglected over time, a persistent contamination problem which is hard to correct may result because of the formation of slimy biofilm containing mold, bacteria, and other microorganisms.
Some signs of problem spas include: slime formation, cloudy water, and foul or musty odors. Another is skin rashes, which may take several days to develop, and which are suspected to have originated from spa use.
If the spa water has become severely contaminated, the plumbing system and filter may be harboring excessive amounts of bacteria in biofilm which may be resistant to your normal sanitizing methods. If you suspect such a problem, have purchased a used spa, or are returning a spa to service after a period of neglect, decontamination procedures should be followed as a precaution, since normal draining, cleaning, and replacement of the spa water may not completely correct it. Decontamination is also a good practice when switching to a new or alternative sanitizer system."
And related to this, the cover. I am guessing needs replaced. Cover was completely waterlogged, and opening it up there is a strong odor (as you would probably expect given its been sitting around for two years like this).
" If hot tub cover is in bad condition or waterlogged, it should be replaced. A waterlogged cover will likely be infested with mold, mildew, and bacteria, and may continuously inoculate the spa water with more microorganisms."
So, I'm not sure if this site is the best information, but they seem very knowledgeable and have many articles that I have been reading up on. Once again, we would welcome any thoughts or suggestions on best approach or things to keep in mind. We will hopefully have an idea on electrical after this weekend and can hopefully move forward with that and site prep. From there, we'll get it running and see what new problems we discover. Thanks in advance for any input, it is appreciated.
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Also, I was attempting to budget this project so I know what I'm getting into. Do these numbers seem reasonable and are there any glaring omissions?
Potential Hot Tub Costs
Item Low Cost High Cost
Hot Tub $100.00 $100.00
Pad $350.00 $350.00
Ground/Area prep $50.00 $200.00
Electric $300.00 $700.00
Cover $250.00 $350.00
Cleaning $50.00 $150.00
Permit $0 $100.00
Chemicals $75.00 $150.00
Filters $50.00 $100.00
Repairs $- $500.00
Electric Bill (per month) $30.00 $50.00
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The electrical can go way higher, depending an the max amp load, distance from main circuit box, and whether conduit is required. Both copper and licensed electricians are expensive. How far will the tub be from the main electrical box and how far from the house ? Will any of the electrical be buried ?
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Yeah, I was thinking on the higher end of that range. I'm hoping to do as much of the work as I can myself, just need direction and oversight. Friend/electrician is providing that.
Estimating 65-75 feet from the breaker box if I have to go round-about way or possibly as little as 45-50 if I'm able to go direct...need to figure out if its feasible. This is distance from breaker box to outside of house. Then 5-10 to hot tub which I guess would be buried for that portion?? Line could come out on side of house as shown below or from garage directly by the hot tub.
This is kind of what I had in mind:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jIGXJhs333w/Tqshny3bghI/AAAAAAAAAIE/-Wo9woRcJ6Q/s640/hot%252520tub%252520plan%252520location.jpg)
If I come out of the garage, I'm not 5-10 feet away. I know thats a required distance for something.
Also not sure if its ok to have 1 side up against the back of garage like this.
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I recently installed a 75' long 6/3 with ground 50 amp 220/240 volt outdoor rated line to a new tub. (no buried conduit involved). Including the 50 amp/220v breaker in the main, a 50 amp/220v circuit interupter (GFCI) & box, 10 feet from the tub, and 75 feet of wire, the materials alone cost about $600. That's not including labor. Did it myself, but I've wired my entire home. Took between 3 and 4 hours, but no breaks or travel time. Let us know what you're electrical quote comes to. I'm guessing $850 to $1,000.
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Do the wiring yourself. You can get THWN or THHN wire at home depot for $1.70 a foot or on local classified listings for less. Conduit is cheap, and easy to work with.
Follow this link for a step by step installation. After watching this animation, you will see it is not very hard. Save money on the wiring, and the entire project will not be too bad.
http://www.spadepot.com/spacyclopedia/wiring-hot-tub-spa.htm
Scroll down about 1/4 and watch the animation they have explaining the installation.
Hope this helps.
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I am doing most of the work myself, just have a friend/electrician answering questions and double checking my work.
I spent most of the weekend working on getting the tub in place, and finishing the surrounding area. I installed a paver walkway, shaped flower beds around the tub and installed a piece of privacy lattice where the house ends.
I also buried the electrical run and pulled the wires from the house side to the tub (from below the pad). I am finishing the inside portion of the electrical this week, making the run from the breaker box to the disconnect location.
Hopefully, I'll be able to fire it up soon and see what kind of problems I have on my hands.
A few pictures of the progress:
Area as it looked on Friday morning:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xILyjJOus4Q/TrloeG0Yt_I/AAAAAAAAAI4/CL4-f2x02Ds/s640/002%252520area%252520prepped%252520%252520Nov%2525204%252520%252528Fri%252529.JPG)
Area as it looks now with tub in place:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-YehkbCnW7zg/TrlnJ0woJpI/AAAAAAAAAIg/xqF2fpFY-i0/s640/032%252520tub%252520in%252520place%25252C%252520walkway%252520done%25252C%252520flower%252520bed%252520shaped%25252C%252520lattice%252520installed%252520%2525201%252520Nov%2525207%252520%252528Mon%252529.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HSg39pModbI/TrlnTtXgh4I/AAAAAAAAAIo/hGHHlU_MXm4/s640/033%252520tub%252520in%252520place%25252C%252520walkway%252520done%25252C%252520flower%252520bed%252520shaped%25252C%252520lattice%252520installed%252520%2525202%252520Nov%2525207%252520%252528Mon%252529.jpg)
Wiring - (18" Trench, 1" PVC, 6 AWG wire):
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bG7ja07JwGw/TrlrPSV1nzI/AAAAAAAAAJg/lOhN2-BZi_0/s400/017%252520wiring%252520in%252520trench%2525201.jpg) (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-diMSvLXiysw/TrlrPX-1-8I/AAAAAAAAAJU/DpTfUhLONm0/s400/018%252520wiring%252520in%252520trench%2525202.jpg) (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DWCJDCPme_o/TrlrPbSA99I/AAAAAAAAAJQ/JPErOhStbq8/s400/019%252520wiring%252520into%252520tub%252520from%252520below.jpg)
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Wiring completed. A very quick test of it did have the unit powering up. I quickly shut the power off as I wasnt sure it could be on with no water in it??
Next step is to fill it up and see if it holds water and heats it.
I have ordered chemicals. I will then do a thorough decontamination. If all goes well, could be using it soon!! Just need the weather to hold up for another week or so (at least above freezing).
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Started filling it with water, but it quickly started leaking. I'll try to post some pictures soon, but the culprit was a PVC pipe with multiple cracks in it. This piece has many connections that appear to go to various jets.
Bummed, but not surprised.
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Here is a pic...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-aCtvjfICvUA/Ts2zwgNDG7I/AAAAAAAAALs/2Ortn7DOCEU/s640/Photo%252520Nov%25252023%25252C%2525207%25252044%25252003%252520PM.jpg)
you can see the cracks. how bad is this? how would I go about replacing this part. I wasnt able to fill very far, so who knows if there are more leaking parts further up.
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another pic...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XzpAyFPaRIg/Ts22xhVVTGI/AAAAAAAAAMU/FFHoGmF4QjE/s800/leak.jpg)
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Looks like the manifold was frozen solid at one point........
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I guarantee it...in fact probably on several occasions.
So, difficult fix?
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I guarantee it...in fact probably on several occasions.
So, difficult fix?
You won't scratch your head trying to figure out what to do, its fairly straight forward. The problems with this type of fix are 1) can you get at it fairly easily, 2) once you're done and you think to yourself "I hope I never have to do that again" will you then find out that another leak becomes evident. When a spa freezes there can be busted plumbing in various places. You got nothing to lose but some time, give it a shot.
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I live in paradise, where freezing is only done to little cubes we place in our drinks, but it makes sense to me that if you have found some freezing damage, there might be more. I would sure look around.
Those white pieces are manifolds, and can be ordered. They come in sections which can be glued end-to-end, and they come with caps to cap off any nipples you will not be using. They are not expensive, and if you feel comfortable with basic PVC plumbing techniques should be an easy DIY project.
(http://www.hottubthings.com/v/vspfiles/photos/672-7150-2T.jpg)
The vinyl tubing should be warmed up with a heat gun before removing and reinstalling on the new nipples.
HTH
8)
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I dont see any other cracks anywhere else including on the other manifolds. The water leaked to just below the 16 jets serviced by the cracked manifold, then stopped. There were many other jets that remained submerged in water that went to the other manifolds, so I think it might just be the one spot. I suppose there could be some leaks further up on the jet end of some of the higher connections.
I actually cut off the hoses on the bad manifold. I think there is enough slack on them to reattach everything. I couldnt get them to come off. Didnt think to heat them.
So, when I heat them and put them back on and place the clamp back on them, is that all that is needed? No glue on these?
I ordered 3 manilfolds (6, 6, 4), an end cap and a reducer bushing to connect to the 1.5" hose. Just use regular PVC primer and glue?
Man, I hope the weather will cooperate with me. One semi-warm day after the parts arrive to get this all back together and try to refill. I really dont want to put this on hold until spring.
Thanks for the advice.
Mark.
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I like to dip the end of the tubing into pvc primer before shoving it onto the nipple, but that doesn't always work. For example, if the tubing is stiff, you really must heat it to get it on and to get it to seal. If you don't, you will have leaks - which causes panic - but which may go away once the tub heats up and the tubing softens a bit. If you get it nice and warm and then dip it into primer it cools right off again...
So - primer any new tubing which is still soft, heat old tubing.
HTH
8)
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So, finally, after trying to figure out everything from how to move this thing, electrical requirements, repairing cracked manifolds and a leaking jet...and spending way more time, and a little bit more money than expected, we finally are using our new (to us) hot tub!
Thanks to all that have provided guidance along the way. I may not know a lot about hot tubs, but I certainly know more than I did a few months ago.
As new problems arise (I know enough to know they will), I will be back with more questions. But for now, we are going to try to enjoy our tub.
All said and done (for now...hopefully), I think we are in it for around $2300 (tub, pad, electrical, chemicals, repairs...everything). I know Thermospas do not have the best reputation, and I certainly would not buy one new from what I have learned. However, it does seem to be a decent hot tub, its in really nice shape overall, and for our first hot tub and for only $2300, we are happy.
I will try to post some pictures of the finished tub up and running.
Mark.
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Glad to hear from you again. I don't know that Thermospas, the spas themselves, have a terrible reputation, but I think that has to do more with their Marketing people. I personally only have known on TS owner and his spa is still doing well.
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Yay! Welcome to Spatopia - you have earned some relaxation to say the least.
May you soak long, and prosper.
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