Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: NurseN2000 on October 04, 2011, 06:38:24 pm
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My water is a little cloudy, and I want to shock it. My boyfriend told me I am shocking it too often, because we have ozone and we should hardly ever need to add any chemicals. He grew up with a pool in his backyard, so he knows all about chemicals for swimming pools, but he's never had a hot tub. I have found that my water will stay crystal clear for about a week - 10 days or so on the initial fill, but then gets a bit cloudy about every 3-4 days. We use the tub like crazy (pretty much every night x2 people, with occasional guests), and my boyfriend is in the habit of going into the tub after his daily workout, then dipping his head and hair under the water like a bathtub (he thinks this doesn't affect the tub because he waits until his sweat dries :o). He has short hair, but he runs his fingers through it like he's washing it. I don't care if he does that, don't get me wrong, I want him to enjoy the tub however he wants to enjoy it, but I also want to soak in crystal clear water, and I think this may be clouding the water prematurely. So bottom line, can I shock it every 3-4 days if the water gets cloudy? I have not tested the chlorine at home, my dealer gave me strips with the tub that only test TA, pH and copper (my TA is currently 40, pH 7.2, and a small amt of copper). I will be buying some test strips to test the chlorine this weekend when I can make it back up to the dealer so I can see where the chlorine level is at.
Also, with the ozone system, do I need to be adding bromine or chlorine daily or after each use? What the dealer told me when I first got the tub (6 weeks ago) was to put in the algicide when I first filled it, soak in it, then shock it after. That's it. No other instruction about chemicals. Of course, I called her constantly with questions, but she seems to be under the impression that people go too far overboard with the chemicals and never really gave me a clear answer as to what a routine should be, just more of a "well, you could try an enzyme if you want, or a clarifier". So I am sort of left scratching my head, between her and my boyfriend who I think is basing all of his advice on how his family cared for their swimming pool.
I am in love with my hot tub (LA HEET), and just want to soak in a safe tub with crystal clean water. Any thoughts? suggestions?
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they had you put in algaecide? First you need to know that the tub is not a swimming pool. The warm water in the tub allows for the growth of bacteria at a much much more rapid rate. This is compounded by the fact that the volume of water is a fraction of that in a pool. So start by getting your water straightened out and decide which chemical sanitizer you would like to use. You should also know that whatever your boyfriend uses in his hair (or even if it is oily or dirty) is going into the water to cause imbalance, cloudiness and will require you to clean your tub much sooner. The sweat? Yeah, that too....While you are in the tub, you sweat anyway. You don't notice it because you are in water, but you are sweating. But going in after a work out will also introduce a lot of body oil and bacteria into your tub. If you don't sanitize properly, you will have major issues.
Are you using bromine or dichlor? You really can't do anything without being able to test your water and first balance it. I hope you are just misunderstanding your dealer and that you didn't buy a tub from someone who offers so little support..or knowledge.. :-\
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Actually, the product she had me put in initially is called Rainforest Blue, and it's a bactericide and algaecide. I've not seen that product discussed on these forums, so I guess I'm not really sure what to do with it...the directions just say to get my TA and pH in the recommended ranges, then add that to maintain a copper level of 0.3-0.6, and then to shock. Soooo... how does that fit in with bromine/chlorine maintenance? or is it even necessary to use them if I use this product, aside from weekly shocking? My dealer was extremely helpful when I first got tub, don't get me wrong, I feel very comfortable with her knowledge level; She helped me immensely whenever I called her. I probably just didn't know exactly what questions TO ask and I suppose I felt I had a handle on the chemicals and stopped calling her after a few weeks. I've had my water tested (at a local spa & pool shop nearer to my home) and all my levels were in the appropriate ranges, including chlorine at that time. I think the issue is that we use it so heavily so my question remains, can I shock it more than once a week if it gets cloudy sooner? Of course, I guess that will depend on checking it with test strips that read chlorine. I get it about the "it's NOT a pool", I do know that hot tubs grow bacteria easier due to the heated water. I am totally fine with ignoring my boyfriends suggestions on spa care (since he's basing it on his knowledge of swimming pool care lol), but I'm also not going to tell him that he can't enjoy the hot tub the way he wants; if I did that I'd probably end up just sitting in it alone, and then I won't be enjoying it as much. So I'm fine with cleaning up the water as needed, I just don't want to overdo the chemicals :).
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Ok, well, lets see if someone on here is familiar with Rainforest Blue.. I guess I was just pointing out that your boyfriend may be causing the cloudiness ...(rather than a contamination problem from bacteria)..in which case, shock wouldn't help. Just curious, does you water have a green/blue hue? You say you are measuring copper, so I am curious.
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Oh, I'm quite sure he is causing it, even though he doesn't think so lol. Whether cloudy or crystal clear, there is no tint to my water at all, just the natural color of water. I have a very light color spa (sterling silver) so I can really see the color of the water and love how clean it looks (and the way the led lights glow in the dark!). I'm only measuring copper because it is on my test strips given to me by the dealer, and now that I've gone back and read that rain forest blue label it says to "balance total alkalinity and pH as necessary, and apply 3 tsp per 250gal of spa water to yield 0.6-0.8 ppm copper". I guess now I see that's why she gave me those particular strips. It's a little hard to read the copper level, because the shades of pinkish-violet are all so close, but I'm gonna say it looks right around 0.6+ ppm. I think I'll call my dealer tomorrow and review the routine maintenance with her using the Rain Forest Blue, because I must have missed something she told me.
I think I just have never heard of anyone else using this on these forums, they always talk about bromine and chlorine, so I just assumed that I should be using those also. Maybe if I use this product I don't need to use those except to shock weekly? I'll let you know what the dealer says :)
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Since your a nurse you can probably slap your boyfriend upside the head and call it "shock therapy". Instead of a shock, perhaps try a clarifier, but if you use one of those, rinse your filter when it clears as that is where it all goes.
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I tell people to keep it simple, but keep it clean too!
1.Always balance water first: pH and TA. Easily done with 'spa up' or 'spa down.'
2.Keep the ozone and silver ion working for you: be sure you see the normal bubbles or normal water flow. If they stop, immediately find out why and fix it. Usually is nothing more than a dirty filter. A Silver Ion cart(Nature2 or Spa Frog) is a good for four months, then replace. That's a good interval for water change too. If you don't have both of these, then you must add chlorine after every use.
3.Add something every time you use the spa. Every time. If you have ozone and a mineral purifier, then add MPS. Put it in as you get out, let the jets run for ten minutes with the lid open. It will be gone in minutes, leaving clear water. But you have to add it every single time you use the tub.
4.Shock once a month, more if you need. Use the Dichlor for this - it is the 'big gun' and works well to keep things clear.
8)
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I tell people to keep it simple, but keep it clean too!
1.Always balance water first: pH and TA. Easily done with 'spa up' or 'spa down.'
2.Keep the ozone and silver ion working for you: be sure you see the normal bubbles or normal water flow. If they stop, immediately find out why and fix it. Usually is nothing more than a dirty filter. A Silver Ion cart(Nature2 or Spa Frog) is a good for four months, then replace. That's a good interval for water change too. If you don't have both of these, then you must add chlorine after every use.
3.Add something every time you use the spa. Every time. If you have ozone and a mineral purifier, then add MPS. Put it in as you get out, let the jets run for ten minutes with the lid open. It will be gone in minutes, leaving clear water. But you have to add it every single time you use the tub.
4.Shock once a month, more if you need. Use the Dichlor for this - it is the 'big gun' and works well to keep things clear.
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Well said but for #3 I use a little ganular chlorine after each use (like 1 teaspoon per person) instead of MPS. It does a much better job and as noted it dissipates very quickly anyway so I'll skip the MPS and use the dichlor instead. Its gone before I get in the next time.
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Ok, well, lets see if someone on here is familiar with Rainforest Blue.. I guess I was just pointing out that your boyfriend may be causing the cloudiness ...(rather than a contamination problem from bacteria)..in which case, shock wouldn't help. Just curious, does you water have a green/blue hue? You say you are measuring copper, so I am curious.
Here is a link for info on Rainforest Blue:
http://www.pacificsandsinc.com/html/rainforest_blue.html
My guess is that it is a copper based algicide/bactericide. The copper level test strips would be necessary to ensure that the copper level don't become excessive. Unlike chlorine or bromine, copper does not evaporate/disperse.
I'd personally drain the tub and stick to a chlorine or bromine based regimen
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One advantage (if you want to look at it that way) is that you can get virtually unlimited support here for the other methods of sanitization. ;)
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Since my last post, I've been doing a little thinking. (That can be bad. :) ). If Rainforest Blue is copper based, it would produce free copper ions. Adding chlorine to a copper ion solution would result in Cupric-Chloride. In other words, the free ions would combine becoming inert. It's been over 45 years since I took college chemestry, so I could be wrong on this. If I'm right, the two sanitizers are cancelling each other out.
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Since my last post, I've been doing a little thinking. (That can be bad. :) ). If Rainforest Blue is copper based, it would produce free copper ions. Adding chlorine to a copper ion solution would result in Cupric-Chloride. In other words, the free ions would combine becoming inert. It's been over 45 years since I took college chemestry, so I could be wrong on this. If I'm right, the two sanitizers are cancelling each other out.
I would drain the spa and go to a chlorine based system. It will save you time, money and work much better IMO.
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That was why I was asking about the color of your water...Sometimes the old tried and true methods are the way to go..at least for a start. When you get the hang of it, maybe then experiment with other methods ;)
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Ok, well, lets see if someone on here is familiar with Rainforest Blue.. I guess I was just pointing out that your boyfriend may be causing the cloudiness ...(rather than a contamination problem from bacteria)..in which case, shock wouldn't help. Just curious, does you water have a green/blue hue? You say you are measuring copper, so I am curious.
Here is a link for info on Rainforest Blue:
http://www.pacificsandsinc.com/html/rainforest_blue.html
My guess is that it is a copper based algicide/bactericide. The copper level test strips would be necessary to ensure that the copper level don't become excessive. Unlike chlorine or bromine, copper does not evaporate/disperse.
I'd personally drain the tub and stick to a chlorine or bromine based regimen
*cringe* like spatech said, drain and go chlorine...cheap, easy, effective
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The "cloudiness" may be due to your boyfriends habits AND the method of treatment. RainForest Blue might be a good method...for some but others may benefit from a more "traditional" approach. I am with the others. Drain and refill using only di-chlor after each use (about a small capfull (1-2 tbsps) each time.
However, the condition of the water may actually be more directly related to your hair care habits rather than his workout routines. Believe it or not, the hair product women typically employ can reek havoc with water treatment methods. Conditioner is particularly troublesome. If you (or he) washes your hair daily and use a conditioner or any type of gel to hold your hair, your compounding the problems. Some have tried to use less conditioner, or keep their hair out of the water or even to shower out the hair products BEFORE getting into the tub
Lastly - The RainForest Blue site states that you can "benefit" by using it in conjunction with the EcoONE water management system. I've seen these statements before and often wondered...WHY? In some cases, I think that you probably NEED to use BOTH systems in that tub in order to maintain water quality. My one question to the salesperson pushing the products would be "How would I KNOW if I needed both systems? What EXACTLY is one to look out for in order to determine if adding EcoONE to the process is REQUIRED?" If the answer comes back 'If in doubt, do both", I'd call BS on it. This isn't snake oil. You either need it or...you don't need it. There HAS to be some type of empirical way to determine the requirements. So, the last question is....Do you also currently run the EcoONE system in conjunction with the PacificBlue? If not, why not and if they want you to spend more $$$'s on both products you might want to understand the costs differences of those programs vs. the older "2 tbsp of Di-Cholr after each dip. Di-Chlor probably runs me about $80/year and doesn't leave any chlorine smell in the pool (because it dissipates overnight)
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The "cloudiness" may be due to your boyfriends habits AND the method of treatment. RainForest Blue might be a good method...for some but others may benefit from a more "traditional" approach. I am with the others. Drain and refill using only di-chlor after each use (about a small capfull (1-2 tbsps) each time.
However, the condition of the water may actually be more directly related to your hair care habits rather than his workout routines. Believe it or not, the hair product women typically employ can reek havoc with water treatment methods. Conditioner is particularly troublesome. If you (or he) washes your hair daily and use a conditioner or any type of gel to hold your hair, your compounding the problems. Some have tried to use less conditioner, or keep their hair out of the water or even to shower out the hair products BEFORE getting into the tub
Lastly - The RainForest Blue site states that you can "benefit" by using it in conjunction with the EcoONE water management system. I've seen these statements before and often wondered...WHY? In some cases, I think that you probably NEED to use BOTH systems in that tub in order to maintain water quality. My one question to the salesperson pushing the products would be "How would I KNOW if I needed both systems? What EXACTLY is one to look out for in order to determine if adding EcoONE to the process is REQUIRED?" If the answer comes back 'If in doubt, do both", I'd call BS on it. This isn't snake oil. You either need it or...you don't need it. There HAS to be some type of empirical way to determine the requirements. So, the last question is....Do you also currently run the EcoONE system in conjunction with the PacificBlue? If not, why not and if they want you to spend more $$$'s on both products you might want to understand the costs differences of those programs vs. the older "2 tbsp of Di-Cholr after each dip. Di-Chlor probably runs me about $80/year and doesn't leave any chlorine smell in the pool (because it dissipates overnight)
nail on the head....the only thing you NEED to do in any hottub is maintain 7.2-7.8pH..80-120ppm ALk...at least 1ppm chlorine/bromine at all times, and a reasonable calcium hardness level of around 150-200ppm for examples sake....now the chemicals need to achieve this are chlorine or bromine depending on preference, dry acid, baking soda, and maybe some calcium booster if you fill with soft water, so for someone to tell me I need some type of latest and greatest method that is not EPA approved unless used in conjunction with chlorine/shock doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...why not just remove the "in conjunction with" and use the product that is actually doing the "work" ie chlorine or bromine...just my .02
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I do it every week, typically after a period of high bather usage. Shock treatments must be repeated, until such time as a stable sanitizer reading can be achieved, for at least a few hours.
C-4950 (http://www.hottubs2buy.co.uk/filter-prb50-in-c-4950-50sq) | c4950 (http://www.hottubs2buy.co.uk/filter-prb50-in-c-4950-50sq) | C 4950 (http://www.hottubs2buy.co.uk/filter-prb50-in-c-4950-50sq)
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Thanks so much everyone for all the help!!! I have decided to go with bromine, not necessarily because I think the rainforest blue doesn't work...but how do I KNOW it's working? The test strips that are meant to show me the copper level are incredibly hard to read, all the shades of pinkish purple are virtually the same! After speaking with the dealer again, they explained the system to me and it all sounds logical (no, they didn't try to sell me any additional products, in fact they say I don't need anything else since my spa has ozone running). But "logical" doesn't make me feel comfortable if I can't accurately measure, not to mention when I asked him how often I should add it he said something to the effect of that's sort of a "grey area". Huge red flag for me, being a newbie!! So I took all of your advice, and I went to the local spa place and had the guy there explain how to use bromine with my ozone system. They are super nice people, very knowledgeable and helpful and just a few miles from my house...would have bought my spa there, but they are locally made on the site and didn't really seem to have any variety in jets so I didn't really like the spas themselves. The guy explained how to use either chlorine or bromine, didn't try to sell me anything at all. I ended up leaving with bromine tablets, spa perfect and new test strips that I think will make me feel more comfortable. I'm really happy that this nearby dealer is so willing to help me and take the time to explain everything to me, they also do free water tests there too... I really like the dealer I bought my spa from, they are super nice, I just think maybe they should not give a newbie a chemical system that is not something most commonly used. They tell me that is what they use in their own personal spas, and that's great...for them, since they have years of experience and experimentation with lots of different things I'm sure. I had no idea what I was getting, I just assumed it would be normal chemicals. Maybe they thought they were doing me a favor, I don't know. I just know I want something I can lay my eyes on that says my spa is within the correct range of sanitation, TA & pH.
As for my hair, I do indeed use conditioner, but really little else. I cut the back of my hair (my "hot tub" haircut lol) so it doesn't get into the water very much, but it does get a little wet on the ends. As for my boyfriend's hair, well it's a military style cut, pretty high & tight most of the time (he needs a haircut right at the moment lol), and he barely uses anything on it at all, not really even shampoo. He just cleans it in the shower with his body wash, and that works for him, his hair is really very healthy :). Like I said earlier, I don't want to nag him about how he uses the hot tub, I'm just glad he's loving it as much as I am and I wouldn't want to spoil that for him or for us as a couple (being able to get in together and relax is really wonderful, we are actually spending a bit more time together without distractions). So I am happy to maintain the water, clean it, refresh it, replace it as needed. At least now I feel like I have some control over knowing it's clean and sanitized.
Thanks again for all the information, hopefully I am on the right track now! And if I have any questions about bromine, I know there are plenty of experts here to help explain things as I go along ;). I really do appreciate it!
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they say I don't need anything else since my spa has ozone running
When I see that kind of statement above it tells me its someone without much direct hot tub experience. Ozone is an excellent AID in water care IMO but anyone who thinks that by having ozone you don't need anything else is someone who is saying it because they were told it was true or they read it, not someone who has lived it.
Personally I like chlorine better than bromine but bromine works well too. The good thing about bromine is you can keep a more constant level of sanitizer, the bad thing is that level is constant so I personally notice it when I'm in the water. Some favor bromine, some chlorine. Bromine may be exactly what you're looking for, you'll know soon.
If not bromine try chlorine another time (after draining) to see if that is what works for you. I like dichlor because I add after I get out and it sanitizes but then dissipates not long after so next time I go in its a low level again so when I'm in it there is no chemical smell and then I spike it afterward with more and it sanitizes, then dissipates ...
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thanks Spatech, let me just clarify one thing, what they said was I didn't need anything else besides the ozone AND the rainforest blue stuff... not sure if that's what you meant, but they didn't say the ozone and NOTHING else :). They suggest using the rainforest blue as a non-chemical alternative to chlorine/bromine, which is what they say they personally do.
I just went in for the first time since adding the bromine, so far so good as far as my skin feeling ok...but I'm not sure it's up to the correct level yet, I will test it in the morning. If I have any problems with it after a while I'll definitely want to try the chlorine. Your routine seems pretty good, and easy. Does it ever smell too much like chlorine? Just curious, I like a faint smell of chlorine (smells clean) but too much is irritating to my eyes and throat.
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If I have any problems with it after a while I'll definitely want to try the chlorine. Your routine seems pretty good, and easy. Does it ever smell too much like chlorine? Just curious, I like a faint smell of chlorine (smells clean) but too much is irritating to my eyes and throat.
The biggest smell issue is if you have a build-up of chlorine combined with waste so as long as you shock weekly (or so) you won't have a chlorine smell issue.
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Do the pros out there have a particular test kit they recommend? Something like this? http://www.amazon.com/Taylor-Complete-FAS-DPD-Water-K-2006/dp/B0002IXIIG/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
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Checking back in, I've now had the bromine tablet in my filter area since last friday. It still doesn't really register on my test strips, but it's the slow dissolving tablets so I don't know how long before I will really see a color change on the strips. The strips say to read them immediately, but when I do that hardly anything shows up; especially on the chlorine/bromine pads. I find the strips really hard to read, is that just me? I can easily see the TA and pH, so that's good; but the hardness seems to be between the lowest 2 shades of blue, and with the bromine/chlorine pads I feel like I can't really tell if the strip changes color or if I'm just wishful thinking or it looks like it changed color but not really to one that compares with the color shown on the bottle! It kind of makes me nuts!! Also, now that I've got the bromine tab in there, I notice a slightly funny chemically smell, is that what it smells like? I much prefer the smell of chlorine to this smell.
Does anyone else notice a slightly funny smell with the bromine? I only smell it when I first open the cover, then I can't really smell it any more...anyone else have any issues with bromine? Smells or irritation to the skin?
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I used to set people up after delviery and explain how to care for their spas. I just opened the Word file handout for Bromine and our instructions stated the following:
C. Add 2-3 tablets of All Clear Bromine tablets into the filter basket.
D. If you want to go in it that night or the next couple days use a packet of Sodium Bromide to make “instant bromine” as the tablets take 3-4 days before they dissolve and begin to sanitize your spa
I'm puzzled that they just had you add the tablets without any sodium bromide because they should know the tablets dissolve slowly and you may be using it in the meantime.
We also explained that you need to shock weekly with MPS, check your Ph/alk... but we also explained that the tablets are part chlorine so anytime you get behind in your water care or if the water just gets cloudy, etc. that you can/should add a TBS or two of dichlor, it really can save the situation. People often think they are going chlorine free when they are on a bromine routine but its just not the case and chlorine does a great job if things go awry.
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I'm no expert as I have only had my tub for 3 weeks. I use bromine and have the slow dissolving tabs but for the first 4 or 5 days I also put in a couple of cap fulls of bromine granules and since then only added the granules twice as the slow tabs have been doing the job. Hope this helps.
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Does anyone else notice a slightly funny smell with the bromine? I only smell it when I first open the cover, then I can't really smell it any more...anyone else have any issues with bromine? Smells or irritation to the skin?
Did you drain and refill the tub, befor switching to bromine ? If not, you could now have a copper/bromine reaction going on. It's ALL chemistry. What you put in the tub stays in the tub. It's like a giant test tube with a low lever bunsen burner heating it.