Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Stephenh on August 02, 2011, 01:31:29 pm
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We're looking at two models, the D1 Californian and the Sundance Cameo(or Optima). I'm choosing these two due to the presence of local dealers, as I'm sure other brands are good also-
We've wet tested the D1 and will test the Sundance soon. One question is the actual capacity of the tub-the D1 lists 350 gallons in the spec, but the Sundance is listed at 450 gallons, which is a pretty big difference. However, the manual for the Sundance lists 370 gallons as the average capacity(for chemical purposes). The Sundance seems a bit deeper, but that doesn't explain the difference.
Some observations:
The Sundance is a little "nicer"-possibly because of the acrylic shell. I know this is a dead horse, but it strikes me that the acrylic is more likely to craze than the "ultralife". What is the difference in backing(of the OAS or acrylic) between the two. The "lifetime" guarantee on the D1 is attractive(even though I know you have to ship the whole thing back-still its better than nothing).
The water effects on the D1 are a little cheesy-the waterfall is better on the Sundance, even though both are gimmicks.
The filter assembly on the Sundance is a bit of an eyesore-what is the advantage?
Two speed pumps on the D1-is that a practical advantage?
The SS handles are nice on the Sundance, gives it a classy feel.
The D1 dealer seems like they will be more helpful-are will to do a site inspection without any order.
The Sundance has open cell foam insulation(accorrding to the dealer), mostly. I thought this was a bad thing(can get soaked with a leak-I don't think the R-value is much different)
D1 is priced at 9600(with lights, etc), Sundance at 10400, both with lifter cover, steps, delivery, chemicals, etc.
I'm not interested in ripping either brand, they both seem pretty good, just finding out all of the differences, so when we wet test both again, we'll know what to look for.
I'm suspecting the operating costs will be similar depending on how much water the tubs actually hold-I live in CA so weather is generally mild.
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We're looking at two models, the D1 Californian and the Sundance Cameo(or Optima). I'm choosing these two due to the presence of local dealers, as I'm sure other brands are good also-
We've wet tested the D1 and will test the Sundance soon. One question is the actual capacity of the tub-the D1 lists 350 gallons in the spec, but the Sundance is listed at 450 gallons, which is a pretty big difference. However, the manual for the Sundance lists 370 gallons as the average capacity(for chemical purposes). The Sundance seems a bit deeper, but that doesn't explain the difference.
I never totally trust the stated gallons on spa websites. I've seen the same spa go unchanged from 1 year to the next but all of a sudden the next year it somehow is spec'd to hold an additional 50 or 75 gallons on the website/brochure. I'd ignore this part.
Some observations:
The Sundance is a little "nicer"-possibly because of the acrylic shell. I know this is a dead horse, but it strikes me that the acrylic is more likely to craze than the "ultralife". What is the difference in backing(of the OAS or acrylic) between the two. The "lifetime" guarantee on the D1 is attractive(even though I know you have to ship the whole thing back-still its better than nothing).
Sue, the Sundance may be apt to craze more (which is totally aesthetic so I wouldn't give it much thought). While I think they're pretty even overall I'd probably take a 10 year full shell warranty over a "lifetime" warranty that states after year 7 I may have to send it back. In reality I'd ignore shells other than maybe if you like a certain color that the other doesn't carry.
The water effects on the D1 are a little cheesy-the waterfall is better on the Sundance, even though both are gimmicks. Agree
The filter assembly on the Sundance is a bit of an eyesore-what is the advantage? None, I'd ask about getting a normal filter rather than the very costly disposable one designed to sell you a filter far too often.
Two speed pumps on the D1-is that a practical advantage? Not to me.
The SS handles are nice on the Sundance, gives it a classy feel. Eye of the beholder.
The D1 dealer seems like they will be more helpful-are will to do a site inspection without any order. Your feel for how much the dealer will be there after the sale is important.
The Sundance has open cell foam insulation(accorrding to the dealer), mostly. I thought this was a bad thing(can get soaked with a leak-I don't think the R-value is much different). Both are full foamed in a very similar way which is good IMO.
D1 is priced at 9600(with lights, etc), Sundance at 10400, both with lifter cover, steps, delivery, chemicals, etc. How much does that price difference mean to you over the 10, 12, 15 years you hopefully will own it?
I'm not interested in ripping either brand, they both seem pretty good, just finding out all of the differences, so when we wet test both again, we'll know what to look for. Get to wet testing, that will tell you a lot.
I'm suspecting the operating costs will be similar depending on how much water the tubs actually hold-I live in CA so weather is generally mild. I suspect the same.
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What did you think of the D1 when you wet-tested it? Test the Sundance, that's really the next step. Both are great brands, but you'll never know the difference until you actually sit in it. Are the prices off the floor or whatever you want to order?
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Prices were for an ordered tub, before taxes.
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Color and how jets feel should be the last determining factors then. The lifetime warranty on the D1 is based on the structure, which should really never fail. If anything, I'd say the Sundance shell is more substantial than the ultra life shell.
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Actually, the d1 shell is warranty also covers blistering and cracking, for what its worth. I agree, though, that the sundance shell looks pretty solid.
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both brands are on the top tier listing. you cannot go wrong either way. On the shells both companies use the same acrylic shells form the same company,,,so that would be an even par, But yes D1 has the Ultralife shell. the advantages of the shell, the tub can be left empty in the sun and not void the warranty like the acrylic shells they both use. Lucite and Arystech are 2 companies that make acrylic sheets for the tubs....the other thing is the maintenance of the shell, you can use a green kitchen scubby if need be to clean the spa and it won't scratch ( acrylic will) also if there is a gouge , on the Ultralife you can fix it and not tell were the gouge was by a standard tech in the field, the acrylic repair will always be seen on the repair not as easy fix for a standard spa tech . I have made repairs on both.... also yes the warranty,,, the Ultralife gives yo9u a lifetime warranty on the shell. For the life that you own the spa it will be repaired, but if the crack is deamed to big then yes it would have to sent to the factory for repair, the customer would have to pay the freight but the repair is covered, now if you get either the D1 or Sundance in the acrylic shell and have a problem in the field , they have a shorter warranty period for the shell, and if the job is to big and has to be sent to the factory the consumer is on the hook for both freight and repair....
On the gallons they are about the same and the cost of running will be close as well.
On the shells : the backing on the shells the D1 use an ABS backed productlow voc's and less chance of delaminating, the Sundance has the rigid bonding with fiberglass, yes it is thicker but the warranties are about the same....
On the 2 2 speed pumps, i think that is an advantage,,, if you get in the spa by your self and wanting to sit in the back corner were the jets are run by pump 2, you can turn only pump 2 on without pump 1 for starters and also having a low speed or high speed more adjustment available and air adjustments inside the tub at the jets, not on the air valves that adjust more than one seat.
On the filters both filter the water, but why the horizontal filter they are the only ones who do this.... also they have the prefilters that replaced more often,, i would check into the standard filter, but again different ways to build a mousetrap, i think the vertical filtration filters do a better job , water getting sucked down thorugh the filter housing, on the horizontal comes over the skimmer and gets sucked to the sides,,, i think the vertical filter gets more coverage ......
Both spas are full foamed they both will hold the temp very well and very efficient,,,
The waterfall on the D1 is what it is,,,, it is different and can change the cap for different style water flow.... the waterfall in the Sundnance is nice, the only thing i don't like is the discoloration of the waterfall after 3-4 years the plastic turns to a oranger color.....
But the biggest thing i would check is the dealers you are working with, i like the idea of the presite, We also do this... in this time were customer service is key, it tells you who wants your business.. also check out the service after the sale and what they offer, do they hav a google places page with reviews, you might check them out.....
good luck you have to very good brands you are looking at.
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But the biggest thing i would check is the dealers you are working with, i like the idea of the presite, We also do this... in this time were customer service is key, it tells you who wants your business.. also check out the service after the sale and what they offer, do they hav a google places page with reviews, you might check them out.....
I would ask the second dealer if they'll do a pre-site for a couple reasons. 1) I'd bet they would and that would even the score and 2) if they said "no" then you know they may not be willing to give the customer service on other things in the future, that would be a good indicator to me.
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good point spatech, that will help you find the dealer to buy from,,,
one thing that is also different is the ozone system, D1 has a 3 chamber u.v system, and it doesn't off gas in the main body of water.,,,
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good point spatech, that will help you find the dealer to buy from,,,
one thing that is also different is the ozone system, D1 has a 3 chamber u.v system, and it doesn't off gas in the main body of water.,,,
So you can never tell when your Ozone is actually working or not! ;)
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yes and no. most ozone systems on a 24 /7 circ will run when the pump is on , thus you will see the ozone bubbles... a way to know is by removing the pump compartment door, ozones will have a light usually grren, blue or an indicator,, some ozones will last 3-4 years, some longer, some manufacturers recommend you replace every 18 months,,,,the other way to know if your ozone has stopped working is the water maintenance,,,
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OK, also found a local Hot Springs dealer and wet tested them all:
1. D1 Unfortunately, fell to 3rd place. Least comfortable, feels cheap(Californian). Best dealer though, I feel bad about not buying from them.
2. Sundance. Good quality, nice hefty shell, handles are a great idea, big tubs. However, jets were not that strong(according to the wife who is the final say), and more so were in the wrong places(mostly at upper back, almost nothing at lumbar L4,L5 where most people have back problems). Least helpful dealer-I think will not be overly helpful in practice.
3. Hot Springs. Good quality, better and stronger jets, overpriced. Not too enamored with the motorized jets though-seems like something that won't last. Dealer seemed OK, willing to do a presite without an order. What is the deal with the Watkins special subpanel? Got a quote for an Aria(with steps, lifter cover, delivery, subpanel, the usual chemicals, etc) for $10800, which although "discounted" from the ridiculous MSRP is pretty steep for a relatively small tub. Also liked the Limelight(lower end Hot Springs) flair for $7900. Wife's favorite brand. Her big issue was with jet strength and placement. We'd like to get the HS(Vista, Envoy , or Aria), but the price has to come down-how much negotiating is realistic?
For all the tests, we asked the dealer to give us the strongest setup for the jets in a any given position(if we got the wrong impression, it was the dealers fault for not knowing his product).
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stephenh,
nice to see your process, When you looked at the D1 did you by chance see the Chairman II that has alounger also , little different on the design, I think has a better fit the Californian, not so much slope, Ultralife is one of my best sellers, I also sell alot of the acrylic shells in the Graphite, and the Moonstone... You should check out the Chairman you will like it better and has more features to it as well....
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...but the price has to come down-how much negotiating is realistic?
I like the fact you're taking your time to determine what spas fit/feel best (like only a wet test can do) and what you think of the dealers but pricing can be a guessing game.
Did the dealer give you a quote that he knows he can work off of or was it firm? I think I’d tell them straight up "We’re interested but when comparing with other places we’ve shopped we really need your best offer to before we go any further". I’d then resist any follow-up question designed to get me to counter such as “what is your budget" or "how much you're willing to pay" and tell him straight up in a polite yet firm way "You certainly know what your bottom line is, please skip any steps in between and tell me the absolute best offer you're willing to go to and we'll either seriously consider it or move on". That should motivate them to take you as a serious customer who expects their best deal.
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3. Hot Springs. Good quality, better and stronger jets, overpriced. Not too enamored with the motorized jets though-seems like something that won't last. Dealer seemed OK, willing to do a presite without an order. What is the deal with the Watkins special subpanel? Got a quote for an Aria(with steps, lifter cover, delivery, subpanel, the usual chemicals, etc) for $10800, which although "discounted" from the ridiculous MSRP is pretty steep for a relatively small tub. Also liked the Limelight(lower end Hot Springs) flair for $7900. Wife's favorite brand. Her big issue was with jet strength and placement. We'd like to get the HS(Vista, Envoy , or Aria), but the price has to come down-how much negotiating is realistic?
The Moto-message has been around longer than I've been on this earth. Water Chemistry is the biggest threat to damaging those jets, as with any jet. The sub-panel just has to do with the wiring of the tub. It comes with the spa, so that shouldn't be factored in (plus it's included in the component warranty for 5 years.) I believe on that spa, the heater is ran by the 20A breaker and everything else is on the 30A.
The price seems in line with what I sell that hot tub for. Overpriced? To some maybe, but if it is exactly what you want, what is $1000 over 10-15+ years you have the hot tub for? Fact is, it is an expensive tub for the dealers, so it's an expensive tub for you too. A great tub I might add, one of our best sellers.
P.S. All MSRPs are pretty high.
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First thing, thanks to the moderator for deleting the russian spam.
So, we go a quote of 10800(before taxes) for a Hot Springs Aria. It seemed a little small, so we also got a quote for 10600 for the Envoy, which seemed like it should be a little more expensive.
Aria- MSRP 15602(!), Unit price 11800, discounted 1000 for total of 10800. Includes Cover(listed as '01?), Cradle Kit premium, Polymer Step, Silk balance water system, Nature 2, Shock(2 lbs), Test strips, Site check(says he will do this with fully refundable deposit), Subpanel, delivery(3 men), Freshwater Ozone
Envoy- MSRP 15602(!), Unit price 11199, discounted 600 for total of 10600. Includes Cover(listed as '05?), Cradle Kit premium, Everwood Step, Silk balance water system, Nature 2, Shock(2 lbs), Test strips, Site check(says he will do this with fully refundable deposit), Subpanel, delivery(3 men), Freshwater Ozone
It seems like the Envoy should be slightly more-its a bit bigger, a few more jets, better steps, with the only downside I can see(other than more electricity for more water) is one smaller motor(2.0 vs 2.5, other motor is the same). Went to another dealer for HS(perhaps out service area), and got a quote for 11200 for the Envoy, with no lifter cover.
I'm a little concerned about the shell(not trying to be flamed here), but has anyone experienced crazing with the ABS/acrylic?
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stephen,
Don't let the salesman tell you one shell is better than the others, and likewise....Most of your acrylic shells on the market are made by Aristech, and Lucite,,, The differances is how the back of the acrylic is done, fiberglass, sprayed on or rolled on some back with an abs product,,,, warranties on the acrylics are about the same,,, wether the shell and the bonding agent the rigid bonding, the metal strapping, will all be about the same the thickness of the shell does not mean better... but crazing can happen on the acrylic shells i have seen it a few times,, but it usually will happen on the shell outside the tub , not on the inside... but the crazing will not cause any issues with the shell...... there are some differences like the Ultralife from D1, the Endurol from Hot Springs,,,, I know you said earlier the Ultralife looked cheap,,, it actually has become my best seller, easier to clean, lighting shows better in the white tub,( movie screens are white( why)? more vivid colors.... but it has different matial in it. my own spa has it,, its softer than acrylic , actuaaly best way to describe is like sitting on leather.....
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I'm a little concerned about the shell(not trying to be flamed here), but has anyone experienced crazing with the ABS/acrylic?
I'm not sure if someone has told you stories as part of a sales presentation but I wouldn't worry about the shells personally. As far as the two mls you're looking t, the prices are close so just go with your gut along with the wet/dry tests which tell you how the seats and jets feel and sit in them and picture which seats will be best as it sits in your yard and what the lounges will face if you get one...
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I'm not actually that worried-I suspect the shell is actually the least of issues. The biggest issue between brands seems to be strength and placement of jets. My wife really felt that the HS was stronger that the Sundance, which did not make sense(more jets in the Sundance?) to me. Anyway, we are trying to choose between the Aria and Envoy. Both have stated 5 person capacity, but it seems to me that the Aria is really two person(lounge plus angled seat) and the Envoy is 3 person(lounge, two good chairs). The Aria seems to take up a lot of space with the cool down seat, but I'm not buying a hot tub to cool down. How much difference does the Aria 2.5 hp motor make over the Envoy? I'm just seeing the Envoy as a better buy overall. I found a dealer with the Aria filled, but not the Envoy(although is on the floor). They also have a Sovereign filled, which should have a similar lounge to the Envoy(no calf jets), so we will see. By the way, do the dealers have territories which prevent another dealer from selling there? Fortunately our closer dealer seems to have lower prices, but I'm just wondering.
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I'm not actually that worried-I suspect the shell is actually the least of issues. The biggest issue between brands seems to be strength and placement of jets. My wife really felt that the HS was stronger that the Sundance, which did not make sense(more jets in the Sundance?) to me. Anyway, we are trying to choose between the Aria and Envoy. Both have stated 5 person capacity, but it seems to me that the Aria is really two person(lounge plus angled seat) and the Envoy is 3 person(lounge, two good chairs). The Aria seems to take up a lot of space with the cool down seat, but I'm not buying a hot tub to cool down. How much difference does the Aria 2.5 hp motor make over the Envoy? I'm just seeing the Envoy as a better buy overall. I found a dealer with the Aria filled, but not the Envoy(although is on the floor). They also have a Sovereign filled, which should have a similar lounge to the Envoy(no calf jets), so we will see. By the way, do the dealers have territories which prevent another dealer from selling there? Fortunately our closer dealer seems to have lower prices, but I'm just wondering.
1) As many of us have noted before, every spa brand overstates how many people fit in it unless you plan to sit against each other and play footsies. You always have to subtract 1 or 2 from what is listed.
2) A "cooldown seat" in reality is space needed to place pumps in the equipment compartment. It is a necessity for space first, a cooldown seat second. If the lounge is placed in front of the spa parallel to that front then the pumps can go under the lounge and there will be no cooldown seat elsewhere in the spa. What you are seeing is lounges facing different directions which is why one has a cooldown seat and the other doesn’t? Does one make more sense to you relative to the view you would get in your yard in the lounge?
3) The hp difference may not show in the feel of the jets because usually HP is tied to the total flow needed which is driven by type and number of jets so they typically balance it from model to model. You might feel a difference in a wet test but I'd expect the wet test will probably show more differences in the feel of the seats (height, width, angle, jet placement, etc.) than the feel of the individual jets themselves assuming you're talking about spas within the same family that have the same type jets which is your case.
4) Not totally sure on the territory question but I think they can sell anywhere as long as they service it in the future (which stops them from selling 300 miles away and then leaving service for someone closer). You want a dealer fairly close, preferably within 30 miles though further can be fine and even much further is fine if the dealer takes care of its customer (in rural areas long distances are not atypical obviously).
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By the way, do the dealers have territories which prevent another dealer from selling there? Fortunately our closer dealer seems to have lower prices, but I'm just wondering.
Go with the dealer that can take care of you and you feel comfortable with. Sometimes we have these big time dealers that move a lot of inventory try and sell in our neck of the woods, but people that buy from them to save a $100 or even $200 end up paying for it when they need service. For instance, if you buy the tub from the guys further away and need warranty work in the middle of winter. The dealer that remains close to you cannot perform any warranty work unless the other guy goes out of business.
Now, they can service it, but they will obviously charge you for that.
On the Envoy and Aria question, have you sat in both?
I sell far more Aria's than Envoy's here because we have plenty of Baby Boomers that are now having a rough time getting around. That being said, the Envoy is very, very difficult for most people with severe hip/leg/back problems to get in and out of. The Aria, on the other hand, is a cake walk with a handrail. Something to think about.
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Sat in the Aria and the Envoy. Preferred the Aria due to the stronger and better placed jets. However, still a little small. My personal preference of the all the tubs is the SD Optima-my comments were really to the Cameo which I did not like as well. Wife prefers Aria. Also considering Limelight Flair. Personally, I've become convinced that the lounge feature is a waste of space and usually doesn't fit in one way or another. The Aria lounge wasn't bad, but still I don't think worth it.
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Go with a Vanguard then! That is actually what I own, and it rocks!
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I'm not seeing how the aria is worth 3k over the flair-both are fairly small, but the flair actually seems like it could accommodate people more easily. Also, not thrilled with the moto massage.